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[ashersky]

Welcome to Mafia XXI: Another Dinner Party!

Spectator thread QT available on request - please PM me and I will send you the link.  Thanks!

This game is specifically for new mafia players.  Newbies will be given priority sign-ups, and appropriate considerations taken to ensure new players get the most out of their mafia experience.

This game will most likely include some non-newbies, due to requiring enough players to play the set-up.

A player will be considered a newbie if this game would be their first, second, or third game ever played.

Game state:

Day 1 (Opening Post)
Night 1
Day 2 (Opening Post)
Night 2
Day 3 (Opening Post)

Players (newbies marked with *):
0 - ashersky
1 - raerae*
2 - sudgy* - Vanilla Townie - Lynched D3
3 - liopoil* - Mafia Goon
4 - mcmcsalot* - Mafia Goon
5 - EFHW* - Vanilla Townie - Shot N2
6 - mail-mi* - Vanilla Townie - Lynched D1
7 - Kooshie*
8 - Jimmmmm - Town Cop - Shot N1
9 - Robz888 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched D2

Back-ups Priority List: yuma, Eevee


Co-Mods: Jorbles

Basic Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics, except for twilight.  This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent, but will be invited to the Spectator Quicktopic.
8. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
9. This game will have "bankable deadlines."  See http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bankable_deadline for more information.  The rules for calculating deadlines are as follows:
- All Days are guaranteed to be at least three days and at most eighteen days long.
- Day 1 is set to last for eighteen days.
- Day 2 and each subsequent day will last for:
--- three days, PLUS
--- all unused days left over at the end of the previous Day;
--- up to a maximum of eighteen days.
9.  This game will have 12 day days and 48 hour nights.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, maroon text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 48 hours of no activity or upon request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

Helpful Links:[/b]

• Main Wiki Page
  
  
• Newbie Guide
  
  
• Frequently Asked Questions
  
  
• Commonly Used Abbreviations
  
  
• Mafia Theory

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

GAME SET-UP, ROLES, AND NEWBIE SPECIFIC INFORMATION LISTED IN NEXT POST

[ashersky]

This game will use the F11 set-up.  (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=F11)

The set-up will be chosen at random from these four options:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

All possible PMs are listed here:

Role: Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no special abilities beyond the right to vote.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Role: Town Cop

Abilities:
Each night, you may investigate a player in the game by sending the mods a PM.  You will get results back in the form of “Town,” “Antitown,” or “No Result.”

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Role: Town Doctor

Abilities:
Each night, you may protect one player in the game from one nightkill by sending the mods a PM.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Role: Mafia Goon

Abilities:
Factional communication:  During the confirmation stage and nights, you may talk with your partner here: Quicktopic Link.

Factional kill:  Each night phase, you or your partner may perform the factional kill.

Win condition:
You win when mafia obtain a majority of town or nothing can stop this from happening.

Role: Mafia Roleblocker

Abilities:
Factional communication:  During the confirmation stage and nights, you may talk with your partner here: Quicktopic Link

Factional kill:  Each night phase, you or your partner may perform the factional kill.

Role block: Each night phase, you may perform a roleblock on another player in the game.  You may block and kill the same night.

Win condition:
You win when mafia obtain a majority of town or nothing can stop this from happening.

[yuma]

i'll be /in or co-mod, whatever is needed. But like someone mentioned, many of these players are in MXIX and may not want to join this game while still in it, but that is a. ok.

[ashersky]

i'll be /in or co-mod, whatever is needed. But like someone mentioned, many of these players are in MXIX and may not want to join this game while still in it, but that is a. ok.

I'll wait to let it start at an opportune time.

[Robz888]

Confirming in. But please not another new category. Just make it Mafia XX or whatever. Mafia X was newbie too.

[ashersky]

Confirming in. But please not another new category. Just make it Mafia XX or whatever. Mafia X was newbie too.

Done.

[Jimmmmm]

Confirming in, but like I said, happy to surrender my spot to a newer player.

[Robz888]

Confirming in. But please not another new category. Just make it Mafia XX or whatever. Mafia X was newbie too.

Done.

Thanks!

[Eevee]

Yes, confirming in. But if there is a sudden rush of new guys, obviously I'd be willing to surrender my spot. I'm no Robz!

[Jimmmmm]

Also yes, if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot.

[Galzria]

Also yes, if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot.

Nah, you would just have to host a second newb game, and he'll just play in both.

[sudgy]

Yay!  When I finally finish something I was doing for the last few weeks, there's a newbie game started!  I'm in as a newbie.  (Note: that thing I was doing for a few weeks was one-time.  I can verify with a 98.35% certainty that nothing else will pop up in this game)

[shraeye]

I have to disagree with the timing of this.

An easy way to scare of some newbies who are just starting (raerae, mcmcsalot are just a few games in; liopoil is playing his first game).

Mafia is a really fun game, but it's very easy to overcommit, and very overwhelming when you do.  I think this is a strong reason why Abra dropped out before completing his first game.

This game has GOT to wait until more games finish, we are pushing too many games at once, which can be fun and exciting for more veteran-y players, but has the very real possibility of putting off people who are interested in joining this hobby.

[raerae]

I have to disagree with the timing of this.

An easy way to scare of some newbies who are just starting (raerae, mcmcsalot are just a few games in; liopoil is playing his first game).

Mafia is a really fun game, but it's very easy to overcommit, and very overwhelming when you do.  I think this is a strong reason why Abra dropped out before completing his first game.

This game has GOT to wait until more games finish, we are pushing too many games at once, which can be fun and exciting for more veteran-y players, but has the very real possibility of putting off people who are interested in joining this hobby.

100% agree.  I'm super in but I work 8-5 and I coach at least two days a week and I don't feel comfortable playing too many games at once.  At this point, two games is one too many and I'll back out without hesitation if I feel my RL responsibilities could suffer because of this.

Also, and kind of sidenote-y, was anybody friendly with Abra?  I think he was mostly before my time but if somebody could get in touch with him and get him to come back for this newbie game?

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

[Robz888]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive.

[raerae]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive.

Fine.  Back out.  My spot is yours, Robz.

[shraeye]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive.

Maybe what she meant wasn't explained well; we've been talking about this in my living room for a bit.  The idea is to keep veterans off the list while it's in signups (or at least limit the two veterans, just Eevee/Robz is ok), but that if too few new people wander in after a long period for signups, we can invite in some older players and start things.

The argument is that a new player would come in and see that there's one spot left and an intimidating list of players some of them who have been in multiple games (I mean, Jimmm has finished 6 games, and is in RMM4 and DS9 currently).  It takes some chutzpah to decide to sign up and give playing this game with a set of total strangers a try.  Please don't say I'm wrong here, because I KNOW I'm not.  It is an intimidating act to jump into a community like this, it's why there are so many lurkers around f.DS in general who finally get to a place where they say "oh hey I've been lurking for 3 months but fiiiinally decided to make my first post."  Raerae is literally telling me right now that a not small subset of the veteran players are super intimidating (in the fact that they aren't conscientious or forgiving of the fact that new players have a different mindset often); and that this is really offputting.  If she didn't know me, and I didn't like you guys like I do, she would pack up and leave right now, honestly.  It makes me realize how exclusive our community is, and I think the focus of Mafia XXI should be to change that.

Jumping into new games can be more reassuring if the majority of those strangers are also as new as you are.  I really think this should be the more important goal of a newbie game, and that this goal should trump getting things filled quickly so that it starts soon.  We really should strive to be as accommodating to new players as possible.

[Jimmmmm]

Maybe we should start a new thread to see how many newbies there are out there who would play a newbie only game (ie no Robz, no Eevee, no me unless I need to make up the numbers).

[raerae]

Maybe we should start a new thread to see how many newbies there are out there who would play a newbie only game (ie no Robz, no Eevee, no me unless I need to make up the numbers).

If we were on Facebook, I would 'Like' this.

[Jimmmmm]

I actually think a newbie only game would be more interesting than mostly newbies led by a couple of vets.

[raerae]

I actually think a newbie only game would be more interesting than mostly newbies led by a couple of vets.

Why are vets needed to lead?  All you guys were new once.

[Jimmmmm]

They're not, that was my point.

[raerae]

They're not, that was my point.

Sorry, must have misunderstood.

[ashersky]

If newbies sign up, veterans are out.  Yes, even Robz.

[yuma]

Maybe we should start a new thread to see how many newbies there are out there who would play a newbie only game (ie no Robz, no Eevee, no me unless I need to make up the numbers).

I made this thread, but everyone ignored it.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6329.0

[Galzria]

Abra left due to RL issues coming up. It had absolutely nothing to do with the amount of mafia he was in.

[liopoil]

I'll be in if this starts after either the DS9 one ends or I am lynched or nightkilled. I don't want to be in two games just yet

[Archetype]

This post is by sudgy in the Introduction section:

I didn't even notice the Introductions section (if it's called that?) so yeah, I'm sudgy.  I've already posted a few random things, and I'll probably play mafia when I have the time. So uh... Yeah...  I can't think of anything else to say...

Has anyone PMed him?

[Dsell]

This post is by sudgy in the Introduction section:

I didn't even notice the Introductions section (if it's called that?) so yeah, I'm sudgy.  I've already posted a few random things, and I'll probably play mafia when I have the time. So uh... Yeah...  I can't think of anything else to say...

Has anyone PMed him?

He posted on the last page.

[Archetype]

This post is by sudgy in the Introduction section:

I didn't even notice the Introductions section (if it's called that?) so yeah, I'm sudgy.  I've already posted a few random things, and I'll probably play mafia when I have the time. So uh... Yeah...  I can't think of anything else to say...

Has anyone PMed him?

He posted on the last page.

I skimmed through and didn't see his post. Woops.

[sudgy]

With newbies wanting to join, they may be encouraged by one newbie being here...

[Robz888]

If you're going to exclude me or other veterans (which is not a course of action I agree with, but okay, it's your game), then please do go back to calling it Newbie Mafia I, or whatever.

[ashersky]

If you're going to exclude me or other veterans (which is not a course of action I agree with, but okay, it's your game), then please do go back to calling it Newbie Mafia I, or whatever.

If we actually have nine new players, I will.  I cannot imagine there will be, and don't expect to.

[ashersky]

PMs listed in the 2nd post.  That should be enough information for this.

[yuma]

one suggestion from me, given that as this is a newbie game, is to not have bankable deadlines. Dont' get me wrong. I like bankable deadlines, but they are kinda abstract and can be hard to grasp, even for people who have already played with them. At the same time the newbie game I ran MX had one week deadlines, which were too short. So maybe two weeks or 10-12 day deadlines? Just to keep it simpler.

[sudgy]

Do I have to PM you to be in?  I thought that just saying something on the thread saying I'm in would work, but I'm not on the list...

[ashersky]

Do I have to PM you to be in?  I thought that just saying something on the thread saying I'm in would work, but I'm not on the list...

You are at #3 when I look...

[ashersky]

one suggestion from me, given that as this is a newbie game, is to not have bankable deadlines. Dont' get me wrong. I like bankable deadlines, but they are kinda abstract and can be hard to grasp, even for people who have already played with them. At the same time the newbie game I ran MX had one week deadlines, which were too short. So maybe two weeks or 10-12 day deadlines? Just to keep it simpler.

12 day days and 48 hour nights now noted in the OP.

[Archetype]

Do I have to PM you to be in?  I thought that just saying something on the thread saying I'm in would work, but I'm not on the list...

You are at #3 when I look...

The Archetype disease is spreading…

 

[sudgy]

Do I have to PM you to be in?  I thought that just saying something on the thread saying I'm in would work, but I'm not on the list...

You are at #3 when I look...

Oops, I was looking at the end of the list.  Sorry.

[Watno]

Maybe it would help attracting newbies if you put the information that this is a game for them in the thread title?

[bozzball]

/in (2nd game)

[liopoil]

in the OP it says newbies are marked with an asterix but they aren't. I think there are three of us. bozzball, sudgy, and I. Are raerae and mcmc still considered new?

[liopoil]

Also assuming based on the second post that the town cop and the sane cop are the same thing?

[bozzball]

Is the town told which of the 4 set-ups we have?

[Jimmmmm]

I'm pretty sure the answer is no. We're not supposed to know the exact set-up but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out in certain situations.

[Jimmmmm]

Also assuming based on the second post that the town cop and the sane cop are the same thing?

Yes. A sane cop is a normal cop, an insane cop receives the opposite results that a sane cop would, but there certainly wouldn't be one (or any other kind of cop) in a newbie game.

[liopoil]

What's the point of the insane cop? they'd just see the result "town" and realize that the person is mafia! Or do they not know that they are insane?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

I understood what she was saying, and I agree with her.  Maybe no one here ever set foot on a playground, raerae.  (BTW, playground bully references don't always go over well here, so if you continue to use them, make sure you're not a victim of bad timing.)

If this was supposed to be a newbie game, then clearly that changed. Hell, even the name of the thread changed.  That's fine, it's Ash's game.  But if it's no longer supposed to be a newbie game, then just say so. Otherwise, here's the mixed message that I see:

It's nice that there is a semi-definition of the term "newbie-game" in the OP, but that is lip service if the definition is not applied (uniformly) as the first filter for entry.

It's nice that there is a disclaimer that reads "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups..." but they weren't. Eevee and Robz are in at positions #4 and 7, and the thread is JUST NOW 36 hours old. (Yeah, I see the "if needed" phrase. It reads as a direct contradiction.  It's either a newbie game, by the definition, or it's not.)

It's nice that that same disclaimer contains a clause that reads "and appropriate considerations taken to ensure new players get the most out of their mafia experience", but that is just lip service if such considerations only begin after the Day 1 start.  Why wouldn't comfort level during the signup process be one of those considerations? Why wouldn't clear communication that newbs are wanted and truly prioritized be one of those considerations? 

Sure, I saw post #23, but here's the thing.  It's at #23.  It's not in the OP.  And if I am still truly wondering whether Ash really would remove Robz or Eevee, then what in the world would newbs be thinking? Let's look at the data available just in this thread:

a) Not a new category! Category changed. Thread name changed.
b) Mafia X was newb too! Hmm, not really: ashersky, Jorbles, Cuzz, GeoLib, Robz888, O, Captain_Frisk, Eevee, and Morgrim7/Voltaire
c) Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive! to the notion of just waiting to the end of sign ups to add veterans to the game
d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Yeah, if I'm a newb, I don't think I'd be interested in this one.

So I ask: If a true newb game is desired, then why not phrase the disclaimer as "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups, and more experienced players will not be added unless needed to start the game"? WOW, now that's a novel concept, wonder why no one thought of it, or posted it?

Further, I submit that a new category (Newbie Mafia) is PRECISELY what we need to keep new players coming in, and feeling welcome.  We've recently had a little spike in that population, and we should do all we can to perpetuate it. I also suspect that the world will not end if there is a Mafia game on f.DS that any one player doesn't get to play in.

Edited to fix fragment in second sentence.

[liopoil]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

I understood what she was saying, and I agree with her.  Maybe none of  one here ever set foot on a playground, raerae.  (BTW, playground bully references don't always go over well here, so if you continue to use them, make sure you're not a victim of bad timing.)

If this was supposed to be a newbie game, then clearly that changed. Hell, even the name of the thread changed.  That's fine, it's Ash's game.  But if it's no longer supposed to be a newbie game, then just say so. Otherwise, here's the mixed message that I see:

It's nice that there is a semi-definition of the term "newbie-game" in the OP, but that is lip service if the definition is not applied (uniformly) as the first filter for entry.

It's nice that there is a disclaimer that reads "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups..." but they weren't. Eevee and Robz are in at positions #4 and 7, and the thread is JUST NOW 36 hours old. (Yeah, I see the "if needed" phrase. It reads as a direct contradiction.  It's either a newbie game, by the definition, or it's not.)

It's nice that that same disclaimer contains a clause that reads "and appropriate considerations taken to ensure new players get the most out of their mafia experience", but that is just lip service if such considerations only begin after the Day 1 start.  Why wouldn't comfort level during the signup process be one of those considerations? Why wouldn't clear communication that newbs are wanted and truly prioritized be one of those considerations? 

Sure, I saw post #23, but here's the thing.  It's at #23.  It's not in the OP.  And if I am still truly wondering whether Ash really would remove Robz or Eevee, then what in the world would newbs be thinking? Let's look at the data available just in this thread:

a) Not a new category! Category changed. Thread name changed.
b) Mafia X was newb too! Hmm, not really: ashersky, Jorbles, Cuzz, GeoLib, Robz888, O, Captain_Frisk, Eevee, and Morgrim7/Voltaire
c) Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive! to the notion of just waiting to the end of sign ups to add veterans to the game
d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Yeah, if I'm a newb, I don't think I'd be interested in this one.

So I ask: If a true newb game is desired, then why not phrase the disclaimer as "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups, and more experienced players will not be added unless needed to start the game"? WOW, now that's a novel concept, wonder why no one thought of it, or posted it?

Further, I submit that a new category (Newbie Mafia) is PRECISELY what we need to keep new players coming in, and feeling welcome.  We've recently had a little spike in that population, and we should do all we can to perpetuate it. I also suspect that the world will not end if there is a Mafia game on f.DS that any one player doesn't get to play in.

THIS.

[theory]

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

I understood what she was saying, and I agree with her.  Maybe none of  one here ever set foot on a playground, raerae.  (BTW, playground bully references don't always go over well here, so if you continue to use them, make sure you're not a victim of bad timing.)

If this was supposed to be a newbie game, then clearly that changed. Hell, even the name of the thread changed.  That's fine, it's Ash's game.  But if it's no longer supposed to be a newbie game, then just say so. Otherwise, here's the mixed message that I see:

It's nice that there is a semi-definition of the term "newbie-game" in the OP, but that is lip service if the definition is not applied (uniformly) as the first filter for entry.

It's nice that there is a disclaimer that reads "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups..." but they weren't. Eevee and Robz are in at positions #4 and 7, and the thread is JUST NOW 36 hours old. (Yeah, I see the "if needed" phrase. It reads as a direct contradiction.  It's either a newbie game, by the definition, or it's not.)

It's nice that that same disclaimer contains a clause that reads "and appropriate considerations taken to ensure new players get the most out of their mafia experience", but that is just lip service if such considerations only begin after the Day 1 start.  Why wouldn't comfort level during the signup process be one of those considerations? Why wouldn't clear communication that newbs are wanted and truly prioritized be one of those considerations? 

Sure, I saw post #23, but here's the thing.  It's at #23.  It's not in the OP.  And if I am still truly wondering whether Ash really would remove Robz or Eevee, then what in the world would newbs be thinking? Let's look at the data available just in this thread:

a) Not a new category! Category changed. Thread name changed.
b) Mafia X was newb too! Hmm, not really: ashersky, Jorbles, Cuzz, GeoLib, Robz888, O, Captain_Frisk, Eevee, and Morgrim7/Voltaire
c) Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive! to the notion of just waiting to the end of sign ups to add veterans to the game
d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Yeah, if I'm a newb, I don't think I'd be interested in this one.

So I ask: If a true newb game is desired, then why not phrase the disclaimer as "Newbies will be given priority sign-ups, and more experienced players will not be added unless needed to start the game"? WOW, now that's a novel concept, wonder why no one thought of it, or posted it?

Further, I submit that a new category (Newbie Mafia) is PRECISELY what we need to keep new players coming in, and feeling welcome.  We've recently had a little spike in that population, and we should do all we can to perpetuate it. I also suspect that the world will not end if there is a Mafia game on f.DS that any one player doesn't get to play in.

I gave this post an invisible +1.

[bozzball]

I am interested in this game purely dependent on it being OK for newb's. I was in a game before, and felt a little bit underexperienced.

[Eevee]

+1 SfS

[Robz888]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

[Ozle]

This all comes down to the desperate need to get games filled up quickly, which doesn't happen any more because there are too many games.

PPE:

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

I thought this was the idea anyways wasn't it?

[liopoil]

I agree with the name newbie mafia I. I haven't heard of Yuma's rankings. And yes, I think it is open to everyone, but newbies get priority in this one in the case of more than 9 people wanting to play. When is fills up we should probably wait a bit before starting it to give newbies more time to find it. With three new people already in and two others who are somewhat new too I don't think there will be a problem of too may experienced people.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

[Insomniac]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

First of all I'm not posting here to "in" (To be clear I'm /out I have yet to take a space in a newbie game), but Robz man newbies are just as entitled to be in yuma's rankings as we are even if it is a newbie only game, MI was newb only, M2 Was newb only + Robz. they have a right to know their stats just as much as we do.

[Robz888]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. No one is in charge here. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person, and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me). I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?

[Robz888]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

First of all I'm not posting here to "in" (To be clear I'm /out I have yet to take a space in a newbie game), but Robz man newbies are just as entitled to be in yuma's rankings as we are even if it is a newbie only game, MI was newb only, M2 Was newb only + Robz. they have a right to know their stats just as much as we do.

But those games were not "newbie only" in the sense that they dissuaded non-new players from playing. No one was bumped from the game for not being a new player.

But, okay, whatever is amenable to everyone else is fine. I should not have asked ashersky to change the name--I assumed this was going to be a newbie-encouraged game of mafia (like VII and X), rather than like a real, real, mostly all newbies game. My suggestion is, if it's to really be a newbie game, to exclude all veteran players, change it back to Newbie Mafia I, and fine, include on the rankings if you want. Well, I mean, that's up to yuma, but presumably he will if most people want it. I don't even have a problem with that, I guess, it was just the default that came to mind.

[Robz888]

I'm not trying to get under anybody's skin. I'm sorry if my tone implied, like, authoritarian decree, or something. Again, I am not in charge.

I'm just ever-so-slightly skeptical of going out of our way to create artificial newbie games. The best newbies have successfully integrated themselves into complex, non-newbie games (think of cayvie in VI, shraeye and sparky IX, Munch in XI).

But it's certainly true that we have too many games for too few players, so I'm willing to entertain doing something like this (and again, it's not what-I-say-goes, so even if I was really opposed, it could still happen). (Of course I also think some people are too eager to moderate without signing up to play a reasonable number of games.)

[Galzria]

SFS, while I fully understand the points you've made, I also understand Robz' position. He's not saying "I must be in every game and how dare you not include me" - he's saying "look, if the game is going to count on Yuma's leaderboard, that tracks stats from a subset of (to date) all normally named games and all blitz games, then it should not exclude anybody for any reason. Every game that has been counted has been open to all, and it should stay that way to be equally fair towards the vets as new people."

I don't think that Robz, or anybody else here thinks that having a strictly newb category is a bad idea. It's a great launching pad to bring in new people. It should be named as such, and as you've said, given every priority to making new people welcome. That's a great idea. But just like RMM or BM games are not "counted" on the leaderboard, neither should this new category. Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed.

Coming from your background where correct data is so very important, I would hope that you could understand that point.

[Robz888]

Exactly, what Galzria said.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?, and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?

[bozzball]

Yeah, I think I'm /out.

[Insomniac]

To be clear Robz I'm not actually taking offense I just didn't see why it shouldn't count on the leaderboard.

Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed.

This is a good reason though. Although is it really that skewed considering when we started we got 100% newbie games?

[raerae]

Yeah, I think I'm /out.

Congrats, guys.  That's two newbies out of the newbie game.  I'm giving you the most disapproving mom look I can muster.  Seriously, I expected more of you based on my interactions with you in Buffy and Blitz.  You guys are great people and not showing that right now.  If you wanted your little corner of the internet to be members only you should have locked it down and assigned a password.

[Robz888]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.

[raerae]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.

Also, also, can we keep veterans off the sign-up list until we get closer to the end?  It could be discouraging for new players if they see a sign up full or nearly full.  It's my experience that newbies are nervous and unless they know somebody in this subset of the forums, it can be intimidating to just pop in and say "Hey, guys, can I play too?"  Think back to the playground to relate to this one, guys.

Ridiculous, unacceptable, and offensive.

It isn't the learning curve, it's comments like this.

[Galzria]

His comment was fine if Ashersky was going to name this XXI. If it is indeed Newb I, then I agree with yours Raerae.

[Robz888]

Yeah, I think I'm /out.

Congrats, guys.  That's two newbies out of the newbie game.  I'm giving you the most disapproving mom look I can muster.  Seriously, I expected more of you based on my interactions with you in Buffy and Blitz.  You guys are great people and not showing that right now.  If you wanted your little corner of the internet to be members only you should have locked it down and assigned a password.

I emphatically do not want that. Why do you think I am arguing that? Of course I want more new player, new players are great. I'm not even against a newbie game!

But Bozzball outing is like a good example of why my skepticism is I think well founded. First of all, Bozzball is not a newbie. He played Mafia II. It was my second game, and the first game to feature Galzria, Jotheonah, Insomniac, and Voltgloss. So really, this was a newbie game, since I was the only player there who had played a game before (and just one). Bozzball under-contributed substantially.

The game was extremely short and non-demanding, by modern standards. It's only 20 or 30 pages, I think.

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

So it makes me a bit skeptical of the idea of a newbie game, and that's partly where I am coming from. But by all means, we should have one, and I will stay out of it (although again, it should go back to being Newbie Mafia I).

[Robz888]

His comment was fine if Ashersky was going to name this XXI. If it is indeed Newb I, then I agree with yours Raerae.

If it is indeed Newb I, I also agree with raerae. I'm sorry for making the suggestion that it be changed; I just didn't want a whole new category of games, if the game was going to be similar to M-I, M-II, M-VII, and M-X.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

SFS, while I fully understand the points you've made, I also understand Robz' position. He's not saying "I must be in every game and how dare you not include me" - he's saying "look, if the game is going to count on Yuma's leaderboard, that tracks stats from a subset of (to date) all normally named games and all blitz games, then it should not exclude anybody for any reason. Every game that has been counted has been open to all, and it should stay that way to be equally fair towards the vets as new people."  I understand that point, and I don't give a flip about the stats, so the opinions of those who do should matter more than mine, but I would point out that a) there is a contradiction between the concept of "it should not exclude anybody for any reason" and the concept of including only "all normally named games and all blitz games", as games are then being not counted simply on the basis of name; and b) if the stats could or will be affected by including results from games with a some (relatively) high percentage of newbies, then show me how the first few "normally named games" (in which, EVERYONE was a newbie, by definition) have been left out of the current stats, in a designed effort to avoid "skewing".  Maybe I missed that.

I don't think that Robz, or anybody else here thinks that having a strictly newb category is a bad idea well, I don't see how you can say that given what he posted, but ok. It's a great launching pad to bring in new people. It should be named as such not according to Robz, he requested a change, as this WAS a newb game, and as you've said, given every priority to making new people welcome. That's a great idea. But just like RMM or BM games are not "counted" on the leaderboard, neither should this new category. Because the moment you exclude someone, but still count the game in the official stats, the stats are skewed. Of course they are.  Stats are skewed every time Player X didn't play in game Y, which was a normally named game.  He was excluded, because the game was for 9 people, and he was the 11th guy to sign up. How do we handle that?

Coming from your background where correct data is so very important, I would hope that you could understand that point. I do, hence my comments above. But my posting today (prior to this one) has not come from position that in any way is concerned about the statistics, and what games count. But in case I've been misunderstood, my concern is about how welcoming we are to newbs. The statistics crap is just deflection in my opinion.

[bozzball]

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

It may well be true that Mafia is not right for me, but I enjoy games in the play-by-forum format, and want to give Mafia a second go, since it seems to be the most popular. I've enjoyed playing The Resistance and Witches Brew in this format, and assume I will enjoy playing Puerto Rico, Through the Ages and Power Grid in this format as well.

What put me off the first time, and put me off again this time is how much more seriously people in this forum seem to take Mafia than the other games.

[raerae]

So, 1) I don't really see how this mild debate between SFS and I affects Bozzball wanting to play, although he implies that it does
2) He has played already, in a game that was probably at least as newbie friendly as this one will be

I question whether mafia is right for him, based on his own comments and history. (Although if he wants to play, he should! I just think he's likely to be disappointed in the experience regardless.)

It may well be true that Mafia is not right for me, but I enjoy games in the play-by-forum format, and want to give Mafia a second go, since it seems to be the most popular. I've enjoyed playing The Resistance and Witches Brew in this format, and assume I will enjoy playing Puerto Rico, Through the Ages and Power Grid in this format as well.

What put me off the first time, and put me off again this time is how much more seriously people in this forum seem to take Mafia than the other games.

Hey Bozzy, I'm going to proposition you.  If you play, I'll play, and we'll have too much fun that the rest of the serious goobers here will realize how much fun this game can, and should, be that they'll all want to play like us from now on until forever.  Deal?

[ashersky]

This is getting crazy.

I started this thread as a new category, but with the full intention of making sure the game filled by including "veterans."  I mean, I have a "veterans only" game coming up, and mcmcsalot is in the pool for that, and I do not consider him an f.ds mafia veteran.

A "newbie only" game that excludes veterans is a dream, I think, because we don't have nine new players to play.  Literally everyone has played at least one game.  So I think if there are new players that don't want to play with old players...then they don't want to play here anyway.

On the playground analogy...I take offense on behalf of Robz and Eevee (Eevee!) for being slotted into the bully roles here.  I think they are trying to help and welcome new players by wanting to play.  They aren't standing with arm crossed; they have arms open.

Forum mafia is first-come based.  If a game over fills, people generally fight to give up spots for others, because we're all pretty nice people, generally speaking.  If we filled early, then a new guy showed up, we'd find a spot without a problem.

I changed the title back to normal mafia not because of Robz's wish to keep his tally going, but more the "not another category" argument.  I maintain the current index, so I saw his point.

If there is a real wish for a new category, I can change back.  I have my own mafia games planned upcoming in the queue I really want to mod.  I offered to do this one to help the community fill a need that was specified.  If its just going to cause fights, then man, why change the system?

PPE--I am adding Bozzball and raerae to the player list and moving some stuff around.  Give me a minute and see if the game still appeals (to anyone).

[Robz888]

This is getting crazy.

I started this thread as a new category, but with the full intention of making sure the game filled by including "veterans."  I mean, I have a "veterans only" game coming up, and mcmcsalot is in the pool for that, and I do not consider him an f.ds mafia veteran.

A "newbie only" game that excludes veterans is a dream, I think, because we don't have nine new players to play.  Literally everyone has played at least one game.  So I think if there are new players that don't want to play with old players...then they don't want to play here anyway.

On the playground analogy...I take offense on behalf of Robz and Eevee (Eevee!) for being slotted into the bully roles here.  I think they are trying to help and welcome new players by wanting to play.  They aren't standing with arm crossed; they have arms open.

Forum mafia is first-come based.  If a game over fills, people generally fight to give up spots for others, because we're all pretty nice people, generally speaking.  If we filled early, then a new guy showed up, we'd find a spot without a problem.

I changed the title back to normal mafia not because of Robz's wish to keep his tally going, but more the "not another category" argument.  I maintain the current index, so I saw his point.

If there is a real wish for a new category, I can change back.  I have my own mafia games planned upcoming in the queue I really want to mod.  I offered to do this one to help the community fill a need that was specified.  If its just going to cause fights, then man, why change the system?

PPE--I am adding Bozzball and raerae to the player list and moving some stuff around.  Give me a minute and see if the game still appeals (to anyone).

Yes, exactly. The "not another category" argument is particularly compelling, I think, because if this is a mixed veteran-newbie game that will count for the statistics, well, we've had a bunch of other games like that (M-I, M-II, M-VII, and M-X), so we should keep in the same format and not start a new category. If this game is fundamentally different in some way--really being a newbie game, not counting (or counting or whatever) for statistics--then by all means, start a new category.

[ashersky]

To confirm, sane cop means cop with no false results.

[Voltgloss]

Still need a co-mod?  If so, reporting for duty.

[ashersky]

Still need a co-mod?  If so, reporting for duty.

Thanks!

[raerae]

@ashersky (and everybody else I guess): I apologize that my playground analogy offended.  My intent was never to paint anybody as a bully just to ask people to remember how hard it was (is?) to make friends.  If you're new and there's a group of kids in the corner all having a good time and generally being awesome, it's really hard to approach to them because what if you don't fit in or you smell funny or don't get their jokes. 

I also apologize that this "discussion" seems to have exploded from a misunderstanding, like all good "discussions" do.  The misunderstanding was on my end and I'm just now seeing it.  When this opened I really thought it was supposed to be a newbie only game that would be filled with veterans only if needed (which was almost 100% inevitable) so my post suggesting vets be left off wasn't meant to kick anybody out of the game, just to make it easier for new players to be comfortable joining.  I don't like excluding people from things, as I was and continue to be pretty lame, so it was never my intent to suggest we do that to anybody else.

Group hug, anybody?

[Ozle]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

[raerae]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

I don't want your dirty hug if those hands are roaming around like wild bison!

[Robz888]

@raerae

No apology necessary to me.

Yeah, it's just that, if this is true newbie game, I have no problem with that. It should Newbie Mafia I, all newbies, and (possibly) unranked.

If it's a game that encourages newbies to join, but is also open to the usual overzealous veterans like myself and Eevee (and I miss Frisk, sad), then it's actually no different from six other regular mafia games and should just be Mafia XXI.

[Galzria]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

Those might've been mine. Sorry 'bout that.

Might not really be sorry.

[Ozle]

I said those hands, not THESE hands!

THESE hands are washed in the purest of snow, and soaped clean with cleansing balms made from the finest oriental lillies

[Eevee]

My only intent ever was to join to help the fill the game up and get to play some fun mafia. I thought I made it clear I'd be willing to let anyone with less experience than I have take my seat in a newplayer-centric game. I stand by that, I'm willing to play but by no means need to get the slot or will be offended if I don't. On the contrary, I'd be quite joyous if this game filled up with newer players!

I think we should keep the sign ups open after the game fills to give more people time to find this. So yes, just inform me whether I'm in or not when this launches, that's all I ask! Hopefully we'll get a bunch of new players lured in.  Good idea to run a game like this, if I didn't say this already.

Also /in for the group hug. My hands play nice for the most part.

[Ozle]

Actually I am /out of the group hug, thats far too friendly for me, I only came here to distract from the arguing!

[sudgy]

Maybe this game should say that it's newbie-friendly.  I was looking for the simplest game here, and when I saw this one, I thought, "This is perfect!"  I know that me, as a newbie (even though I've played many games irl) I just wanted the simplest game.  I think that's what at least some other newbies want too (yeah, they do want other things, but I'm saying this is one thing).

I'm also in for the group hug.  I was going to suggest that the arguing be brought to another thread, but it's over now.

[Cuzz]

I don't actually want to play this game, but might it not be somewhat beneficial to have a FEW non newbies in a newbie-friendly game? When I played MX as a first-timer it was nice to have Robz, Frisk, O and Eevee there to get some of the conventional wisdom out in the open, and sort of run the discussion a bit. And there were enough of them that they couldn't all be scum. I don't think it would have been as fun if it was all new people who didn't really know what they were doing. They do this on mafiascum if I'm not mistaken (called IC for Inexperience Challenged, not to be confused with Innocent Child http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Being_a_good_IC).

This is not my game and I don't actually care, but I wasn't sure if anyone had made this point.


Also, we all have a lot of fun here and we all like each other. Let's all be cool, please  .

[Voltgloss]

I haven't read everything, but I echo Cuzz's feeling that a few experienced players in with the crowd of new players is a good thing, for the same reasons. 

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.

Robz, I'm only caught up to this post, but I want to thank you.  These comments greatly clarify where you are coming from and make me feel MUCH better about today's discourse. I don't want that to go un-acknowledged, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to construct this post.

[liopoil]

We aren't going to get 9 new people, so we are guaranteed to get a few vets. This isn't really a problem.

[Robz888]

@SFS, thanks. I do think there was a bit of confusion on my position on running a newbie game. That confusion was my fault for requesting the name change without an explanation.

[ashersky]

Cue veteran Galz ninja /inning the last spot!

[Jimmmmm]

d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Cheers. Like I said, I'd be happy to give up my spot to a Newbie. But I'd be somewhat miffed if I did so while one or two of our most experienced players got to play.

[ashersky]

Kidding of course.  Given this game won't start until an appropriate time, it won't be "full" even at nine.  Folks can just keep signing up and I'll sort it later.

[Galzria]

Cue veteran Galz ninja /inning the last spot!

Nuh-uh! I've reached critical mass, and then gone way over. Dunno when it happened. I was fine, I was fine, I was fine.... And now I quite literally cannot keep up with all the threads I need to as new posts come in, let alone find the time to say anything.

Nothing else for me! Not for some time. I'm hoping I get killed off in some of my ongoing games (not.... Entirely.... Serious). It'd really ease the load.

[Eevee]

d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Cheers. Like I said, I'd be happy to give up my spot to a Newbie. But I'd be somewhat miffed if I did so while one or two of our most experienced players got to play.

I'd give my spot to you if it got to that, no worries.

[yuma]

Glad this has settled itself--and seriously guys--I made a thread to discuss this sort of stuff, but I guess here is as good as anywhere.

And not to add flames to the fire, but if there is room, I would really like to play in this game. I haven't played in a 9 player version before--aside from Blitz--and am more interested in the simple setups than some of the crazier and zanier ones out there. But, like others have said, I am not demanding a spot. As a vet (~10 games) I have had my fair share and won't be hurt at all if I am not included. If I am not included, I can be a backup mod as well.

[ashersky]

Yuma added.

Keep signing up.  I have an order for booting vets in lieu of newbies.  Note, no booting for other vets.

[sudgy]

I was thinking, maybe you should have the other spaces in the signup be open, and list below that the veteran players...

[bozzball]

Btw, I am in too many games right now, and want /out of this one. Sorry all.

[ashersky]

Convinced my best friend from college to join up and play, so auto-inning him here.  He'll be a true newbie.

[Galzria]

Twinclaim #6!

[Galzria]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

[raerae]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

#8 if you count me and munch

[yuma]

Yuma added.

Keep signing up.  I have an order for booting vets in lieu of newbies.  Note, no booting for other vets.

Not to be a pain, but technically I was the first vet to /in...  .

i'll be /in or co-mod, whatever is needed. But like someone mentioned, many of these players are in MXIX and may not want to join this game while still in it, but that is a. ok.

But really I would love to play, but won't be too upset if I can't.

[Jorbles]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

If shraeye knows munch and shraeye knows raerae doesn't munch know raerae? I know it's not necessarily true, but it's very likely.

[ashersky]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

If shraeye knows munch and shraeye knows raerae doesn't munch know raerae? I know it's not necessarily true, but it's very likely.

Look 2 posts up.

Also, will you mod?

[Galzria]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

If shraeye knows munch and shraeye knows raerae doesn't munch know raerae? I know it's not necessarily true, but it's very likely.

Well, yes, as Raerae already pointed out. I just didn't really think completing the triangle was necessary, however, in doing we would indeed be up to #8.

[yuma]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

I didn't know about ehunt-theorel. And you are still missing one! Your long lost lover 

[Dsell]

I also introduced manda to mafia way back in MVII. Unfortunately both people quit after/before finishing their first game.

(Trying to get Abra back...hoping he will /in for a blitz game when he doesn't have a ton going on.)

[ashersky]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

I didn't know about ehunt-theorel. And you are still missing one! Your long lost lover 

ehunt / theo makes so much sense, though.  They're very similar in mafia style.

[Galzria]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

I didn't know about ehunt-theorel. And you are still missing one! Your long lost lover 

Do you mean Ozle?

[Galzria]

Twinclaim #6!

#7 even!

((Joth-Gloob, eHunt-Theorel, Dsell-Abra, Shraeye-Munch, Shraeye-Raerae, Robz-mcmc, Ash-xxx))

I didn't know about ehunt-theorel. And you are still missing one! Your long lost lover 

Jests aside there...

Ahem! I've NO idea to whom you're referring! And my girlfriend would be appalled at such a notion.

[yuma]

it appears you too have forgotten... You don't remember your long last, unrequited lover from MIX? my brother, angrybirds! although, I guess he isn't a current twin-claim as one game was enough for him.

[Robz888]

it appears you too have forgotten... You don't remember your long last, unrequited lover from MIX? my brother, angrybirds! although, I guess he isn't a current twin-claim as one game was enough for him.

Abirds! Man, I did forget about him, and I didn't know that was your brother.

[Galzria]

it appears you too have forgotten... You don't remember your long last, unrequited lover from MIX? my brother, angrybirds! although, I guess he isn't a current twin-claim as one game was enough for him.

ABirds was your brother? Really? Absolutely didn't know that!

And yeah, I was thinking about your lover comment personally, not game related.

[shraeye]

I remember angrybirds, he was great!  They were voting eachother in RVS over eating all the candy at the other person's house, or something like that.

[Cuzz]

I met joth for drinks a little while ago and discovered he works a 10 minute walk from my apartment. I have not met Glooble but I can almost imagine what he looks like now.

[Robz888]

I met joth for drinks a little while ago and discovered he works a 10 minute walk from my apartment. I have not met Glooble but I can almost imagine what he looks like now.

Cool! I know what Joth looks like because I found him on Facebook (I bet he doesn't even know that, ha!).

[shraeye]

I met joth for drinks a little while ago and discovered he works a 10 minute walk from my apartment. I have not met Glooble but I can almost imagine what he looks like now.

Cool! I know what Joth looks like because I found him on Facebook (I bet he doesn't even know that, ha!).

Creeper.

[Dsell]

I met joth for drinks a little while ago and discovered he works a 10 minute walk from my apartment. I have not met Glooble but I can almost imagine what he looks like now.

Cool! I know what Joth looks like because I found him on Facebook (I bet he doesn't even know that, ha!).

He posted a youtube video of himself and glooble somewhere! You're behind the game, man!

[shraeye]

Actually, i think I know what he looks like, because I remember him and Glooble linking them playing music or something.

[Eevee]

We should start accusing each other of running a mafia family on facebook and see how friends and family react. Actually I guess it's perfectly possible Ozle already runs a mafia family irl, dude has a lot on his plate.

[Galzria]

We should start accusing each other of running a mafia family on facebook and see how friends and family react. Actually I guess it's perfectly possible Ozle already runs a mafia family irl, dude has a lot on his plate.

You're breaking the first rule. FoS

[Eevee]

We should start accusing each other of running a mafia family on facebook and see how friends and family react. Actually I guess it's perfectly possible Ozle already runs a mafia family irl, dude has a lot on his plate.

You're breaking the first rule. FoS

Expectinging to wake up next to the bloody head of my favorite horse now.

[Ozle]

I knwo Voltglos in RL...he just doesnt know me
*sinister mwuahahaha*

[Voltgloss]

I knwo Voltglos in RL...he just doesnt know me
*sinister mwuahahaha*

I'd believe it.

[Ozle]

I knwo Voltglos in RL...he just doesnt know me
*sinister mwuahahaha*

I'd believe it.

I also can't believe the amount of junk food you eat and also throw away!

[Insomniac]

You can't find me, yet I AM on facebook. What does that say 

[Ozle]

We should start accusing each other of running a mafia family on facebook and see how friends and family react. Actually I guess it's perfectly possible Ozle already runs a mafia family irl, dude has a lot on his plate.

I completely missed this first time round!

How dare you insult my family like this!

I'm going to get the Don to whack you!!

Erm...... I mean get the baker to send you a cake!

[sudgy]

So, when does this game start?  You didn't post anything in the first post, and I haven't seen anything else.

[Jimmmmm]

Hang on, did I lose my spot?

[ashersky]

Hang on, did I lose my spot?

In the game, or in line to mod?

[Jimmmmm]

In the game.

[ashersky]

Slot #9 for you.

When should this start?  When Jimmmmmm's gets o N1?  Before?

[yuma]

Slot #9 for you.

When should this start?  When Jimmmmmm's gets o N1?  Before?

I'd say when the newer players that are in other games give an O.K.

[sudgy]

I do have something coming up this Friday evening to Saturday afternoon, so we could wait till after then if we wanted.

[sudgy]

Also, I saw that on the role PM for the Mafia Roleblocker has the same win conditions as the people in the town.  Just wanted to make sure you notice.

[ashersky]

Also, I saw that on the role PM for the Mafia Roleblocker has the same win conditions as the people in the town.  Just wanted to make sure you notice.

Thanks!  Fixed.

[mcmcsalot]

Yea I don't want to confirm my in till I know when its going to start I only want to be playing two games at once possibly 3 and I sort of want to save those spots for super fun/bigger games. Actually screw it /in if im in a whole ton ill just be more newbie and lurk in this game.

[mcmcsalot]

Also a few things I can clear up, if you new don't be scarred to join a vet game just only join one at a time. Everyone here is really nice and respectful of you being new.(*pssssst* they wont ever suspect your mafia and you'll win your first game flawlessly even though you got carried by your amazing scummates)

[raerae]

Also a few things I can clear up, if you new don't be scarred to join a vet game just only join one at a time. Everyone here is really nice and respectful of you being new.(*pssssst* they wont ever suspect your mafia and you'll win your first game flawlessly even though you got carried by your amazing scummates)

False!  I suspected you!  It's just all those silly vets you don't have to worry about

[mail-mi]

May i be in? Im a sorta newbie. Ive played a lot in real life but never online.

[raerae]

May i be in? Im a sorta newbie. Ive played a lot in real life but never online.

Yay!  New guy!  Or gal?  New person!

[ashersky]

mail-mi is in.

So...I think this game won't start up for a bit, depending on how other games go and if Jimmmmm's starts.

[sudgy]

Wow, we're getting more newbies than I thought...

May i be in? Im a sorta newbie. Ive played a lot in real life but never online.

I've played a lot irl but I still would say I'm a newbie on here.

[yuma]

May i be in? Im a sorta newbie. Ive played a lot in real life but never online.

awesome!

[ashersky]

So 6 newbies confirmed.  Good times.

[Eevee]

Oooh, definitely a positive surprise!

[Jimmmmm]

Looks like we're overfull, so I'm going to do the smart thing and /out to keep myself from overcommitting. If you think the demand for this to start is sufficiently high, you may jump ahead of me in the queue.

[ashersky]

Some irony--my friend was blocked from signing up for f.ds due to the how much does Gold cost test!  He doesn't play Dominion, obviously.

Waiting for Major Arcana II to end and DS9 to go into Night 1/Day 2 at least before this starts.

I do think it'll be good to get this game going and finished so our newbie will feel comfortable joining other games, so I will start at that point if Jimmmmm's more complicated game isn't full.

[mcmcsalot]

Jim feel free to take my spot, I don't need to be in a newbie game and it will put me at 4 games at once don't wanna lurk hard and not give the newbies a good game

[Eevee]

Samesies, I have a good number if games already, I'll gladly give up my spot for yuma or robz or for whoever really really want to play. Still in if I'm needed though, no worries.

[Eevee]

... just checked the OP, seems there is room for me. Goood, but if you find another new player, I'd be happy to step aside.

[mcmcsalot]

Soo definety going to /out I my 3rd game just started and Its getting difficult.

[ashersky]

Soo definety going to /out I my 3rd game just started and Its getting difficult.

Your 3rd game will be over in 3 days or less.

[mcmcsalot]

Fine I'm still in, mainly because I wanna play with liopoil more I feel like he's my newbie buddy

[mcmcsalot]

And because I have my brothers addictive behavior to play this game.

[Grujah]

I met joth for drinks a little while ago and discovered he works a 10 minute walk from my apartment. I have not met Glooble but I can almost imagine what he looks like now.

Cool! I know what Joth looks like because I found him on Facebook (I bet he doesn't even know that, ha!).

FWIW, I also know how you look like, as found you on FB as well(that and you've got your own pic as avatar on gtalk).

[liopoil]

Fine I'm still in, mainly because I wanna play with liopoil more I feel like he's my newbie buddy

[mail-mi]

I'm gonna have to /out sorry!

[raerae]

I'm gonna have to /out sorry!

Nooooo!!!  Come back!!

[ashersky]

Jimmmmm is back in until mail-mi re-ins.

[Jimmmmm]

Well I'm in 3 games of Mafia at the moment, and I really think that should be my limit. So I'll play if it starts after that number has dropped down to 2, but probably not otherwise.

[ashersky]

Well I'm in 3 games of Mafia at the moment, and I really think that should be my limit. So I'll play if it starts after that number has dropped down to 2, but probably not otherwise.

ZMX can't last more than two days, tops.  I mean, it's made that way.

[Jimmmmm]

True true. Yep okay, I'll /in under the condition that it starts after that finishes. Well it can start before then if everyone's willing to give me a lurking pass until that's over.

[ashersky]

True true. Yep okay, I'll /in under the condition that it starts after that finishes. Well it can start before then if everyone's willing to give me a lurking pass until that's over.

Major Arcana II needs to end and DS9 needs to go to night first anyway.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, mcmc's in the blitz game too, so he gets priority over me if he wants it.

[ashersky]

Also, mcmc's in the blitz game too, so he gets priority over me if he wants it.

mom salon is in this game, too.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh gotcha. Saw the out but not the re-in.

[ashersky]

DS9 is moving along well, so I may start this up next week, if Jimmmmm's okay with that.

I rolled the set-up already, PMs can go out anytime.  I've double-checked if my friend is joining.  If not, maybe we find someone to fill in.

[shraeye]

I'm not sure what the rush is.  Why not let XX start first?

It's surprising that we got so many newbies, and I'd love to cater to their schedules if possible.

[ashersky]

I'm not sure what the rush is.  Why not let XX start first?

It's surprising that we got so many newbies, and I'd love to cater to their schedules if possible.

No rush, other than a dearth of games currently.

But really, this is for the newbies, not the rest.  I think some of them are without games (raerae, sudgy) or have few games ongoing (liopoil, mcmc, Jimmmmm), and one is brand new (my friend--two if mail-mi returns).  So I thought they'd like in on the action.

If they chime in with "wait, not next week!", then not next week.

Separately, if Jimmmmm's was close to filling, we could wait, but to the detriment of the newbies waiting, I think.  The idea floated by Ozle was a perma-open sign up for newbies that just auto-starts when full, but I don't think we'll get to nine newbies, so this was sort of the compromise.

But hey, anyone in the game is free to ask for it to be postponed.

[raerae]

Early or mid/late-week next week?  This is totally selfish but I'd like a tiny break.  Plus lio and mcmc and others (?) are still alive in DS9 and we all know that's crazy with a capital Q.  What are everybody else's thoughts and feelings?

[ashersky]

Early or mid/late-week next week?  This is totally selfish but I'd like a tiny break.  Plus lio and mcmc and others (?) are still alive in DS9 and we all know that's crazy with a capital Q.  What are everybody else's thoughts and feelings?

I was thinking PMs on Monday, game start on Wednesday.  Or something like that.

[raerae]

Early or mid/late-week next week?  This is totally selfish but I'd like a tiny break.  Plus lio and mcmc and others (?) are still alive in DS9 and we all know that's crazy with a capital Q.  What are everybody else's thoughts and feelings?

I was thinking PMs on Monday, game start on Wednesday.  Or something like that.

I feel like the newer newbies should have more say than I do.

[liopoil]

I'm stilll getting used to DS9..... I'd prefer it if this didn't start at least till next weekend... that game is insanity.

[ashersky]

I'm stilll getting used to DS9..... I'd prefer it if this didn't start at least till next weekend... that game is insanity.

That game is, in fact, tough.

This one I promise will be easier for everyone.  It can wait a week, no problem.

[sudgy]

I'll be fine, as long as it isn't in the next couple days (which it doesn't seem to be heading to) (and I would be fine, it's just I would be gone for a bit).

I think some of them are without games (raerae, sudgy)

I've decided only one game at a time (especially at the beginning).  I know people do more, but I don't want to overcommit, and I want to be safe.

[mail-mi]

Alright, I'm back /in. Couldn't help it.

[raerae]

Alright, I'm back /in. Couldn't help it.

Yayayayay!!!

[EFHW]

/in

[raerae]

Holy newbie explosion!  Love it!

[yuma]

/in

huzzah! Are you ashersky's friend or a new newbie? Either way, welcome, we are excited for you to join us!

[EFHW]

I'm a new newbie.  Thanks for the welcome!

[yuma]

is this getting big enough to have 2 newbie games going? Perhaps start one now with people that are ready and start the next a little bit after? I don't know. Just a thought. I--or someone else--could run the other one if you wanted to play in it.

Or do we want a game with only newbies? Both are good with me, just throwing out options.

[Archetype]

I think a full newbie game would be entertaining to watch, and hopefully fun to play.

[liopoil]

the OP now has 11 players listed: has it been expanded to be an 11 player game or is it just to be able to list the veterans who have signed up but might not be able to play?

[Eevee]

I'm obviously out if we have newer guys to play in my stead.

[yuma]

I think a full newbie game would be entertaining to watch, and hopefully fun to play.

I agree... I guess the question is for the newbies... would they rather play with some vets or with all new playes? If they want to play with vets, then I suggest breaking it up and reqruiting a few more vets and starting them both at the same time... Robz I guess could even be in both if he wanted.

[Robz888]

It might be fun to just have this be an ALL newbie game I guess.

[sudgy]

While this is my first time playing mafia on a forum, it isn't my first time playing mafia.  (I'm sure this is the case for a few other's, too.)  So it won't be like a complete newbie game.

[ashersky]

the OP now has 11 players listed: has it been expanded to be an 11 player game or is it just to be able to list the veterans who have signed up but might not be able to play?

Just keeping a running list.  The game is 9 players.

I plan to send PMs tomorrow and start the game on Thursday.  Is that okay with people?

[sudgy]

I plan to send PMs tomorrow and start the game on Thursday.  Is that okay with people?

I'm fine.

[Insomniac]

I plan to send PMs tomorrow and start the game on Thursday.  Is that okay with people?

I'm fine.

This is not the correct response what you MEANT to say is

[Kooshie]

/in   O.o

[Insomniac]

Where are all these newbies coming from! This is fantastic!

[ashersky]

One more newbie and its 100% newbies.

[Insomniac]

One more newbie and its 100% newbies.

I'm almost hoping for this.

[ashersky]

One more newbie and its 100% newbies.

I'm almost hoping for this.

I have a plan for how to determine which vet gets the last slot, if they are all online at the same time.

[yuma]

One more newbie and its 100% newbies.

I'm almost hoping for this.

I have a plan for how to determine which vet gets the last slot, if they are all online at the same time.

give it to Robz... I want to see the newbies lynch him again!

[Eevee]

Huge props to ashersky for luring all these new guys in!

[yuma]

plus I can be a backup, and /in into Ozle's game...

[Insomniac]

and /in into Ozle's game...

A THOUSAND TIMES YES!

[yuma]

and /in into Ozle's game...

A THOUSAND TIMES YES!

well I guess in that case I will /out, but be willing to be a backup... Now if someone could provide directions to the remains of Ozle's castle... I seem to remember it being a little north of Wit and South of Irony... But I could be confusing it with Robz's mansion...

[EFHW]

I plan to send PMs tomorrow and start the game on Thursday.  Is that okay with people?

I'm fine.

Works for me.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't promise amazing things from me in this game ill be in 2 or 3 other games

[ashersky]

PMs going out shortly.  Final roster updated in P1.  Jimmmmm and Robz are the vets in the game.  EJXD2, my friend, is out for this game, after three prods with no confirmation.

[Ozle]

EFHW friends of you as well?
Or coincident names?

By the way, hello newbies!

[ashersky]

Please confirm receipt of your PM in thread by writing "/confirmed".  Otherwise, thread is locked.  Consider this pre-game/Night 0.

[EFHW]

/confirmed

[liopoil]

/confirmed

[Robz888]

/confirmed

[Kooshie]

/Confirmed

[mcmcsalot]

/confirmed

[ashersky]

/Confirmed

Kooshie, you must change that signature if you plan on playing mafia.  No offense, but the size will make loading the thread pages unbearable.

[Kooshie]

sorry about that signature.. didnt think it would be so big!  is this okay?

[ashersky]

sorry about that signature.. didnt think it would be so big!  is this okay?

Definitely better.

[mail-mi]

/confirmed

[sudgy]

/confirmed

[raerae]

/confirmed

[Jimmmmm]

/confirmed

[ashersky]

That's everyone confirmed.  I'll lock the thread.  Day 1 will begin tomorrow around 4:30 p.m.

Remember, days will last two weeks, with no bankable time or anything.  No rush.  As a newbie game, mods are happy to answer questions in-thread.  Please bold them.  If we are unable to answer due to game reasons, we'll let you know.

FYI, I have been informed of yet another twin claim: Liopoil, Kooshie and EFHW are IRL acquaintances.

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

For reference, a pre-game Post Count:

ashersky: 41
Robz888: 19
raerae: 19
Jimmmmm: 16
yuma: 15
sudgy: 14
Galzria: 13
Eevee: 11
liopoil: 11
mcmcsalot: 9
Ozle: 8
Insomniac: 7
shraeye: 6
Bozzball: 6
SwitchedFromStarcraft: 5
EFHW: 4
Archetype: 4
Kooshie: 3
Voltgloss: 3
Dsell: 3
Mail-mi: 3
Cuzz: 2
Watno: 1
theory: 1
Jorbles: 1
grujah: 1

Legend: Bolded names are playing the game.  Colorful names are mods.  Everyone else needs to PM me for the Speccy QT.

[ashersky]

Something about the room they had gathering in reminded them of a cliché.  Each of the guests had received an invitation, from whom they didn’t know.  It had contained instructions on where to go, but not what to expect.

A butler had let them in.  His name was Jorbles.  He led them into the dining room as they arrived, offered them free reign at the bar along the wall, politely pointed out the view.

“Welcome, everyone.”

Their heads shot collectively toward the door, where their host, ashersky, now stood.  He wore a smoking jacket and held a glass of wine.

“Please, sit.”

They found seats at the long dining table, made of a bloodily dark mahogany.  They stared at the end of the table expectantly.

“Thank you for coming, everyone.  Some of you may recognize others here.  Some of you may not.  Let me introduce you all.  EFHW, Jimmmmm, Kooshie, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, raerae, Robz888, and sudgy, I have gathered you all here today for a very important reason.”

Ashersky paused to take a sip of wine.

“You are not all here to help.  I know that already.  But it couldn’t be helped.  The danger to the city is just too high not to risk it.  Friends, we must”

The lights went out.  They could hear some commotion, but could see nothing.  The lights came back on, slowly.  Ashersky was gone.

Day 1 has begun.  With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.  Deadline is 4:30 p.m. forum time, Monday February 4.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (9): EFHW, Jimmmmm, Kooshie, liopoil, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, raerae, Robz888, sudgy

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[liopoil]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

[Jorbles]

"I hope Master ashersky is alright. I hope there hasn't been another... murder.

I mean a... murder."

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: lio for picking on our friendly mod.

[Kooshie]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

I think you know...

[Jimmmmm]

Unvote. Didn't read the flavour hehe. Vote: EFHW to how he reacts. Also, what the heck does EFHW mean?

[liopoil]

friendly DEAD mod 

[Jimmmmm]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

[Kooshie]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

[EFHW]

Unvote. Didn't read the flavour hehe. Vote: EFHW to how he reacts. Also, what the heck does EFHW mean?

I'm a she actually.

EFHW doesn't mean anything in particular.  I use it for online games. 

But.... regarding your vote for me, I'm flattered. 

[Jimmmmm]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

[mcmcsalot]

woah vote kooshie for that omgus

[mcmcsalot]

vote: kooshie whoops*

[EFHW]

VOTE: mail-mi 'cause he/she seems to like mail.

[Robz888]

Hello.

Important information for new players:

I am Robz888. I am the most frequent player of Forum Mafia; I have played every single game hosted here. Mcmcsalot is my brother, who recently joined the community.

Jimm and raerae are newer players, but I've already gotten to know them fairly well. Liopoil, too, to a lesser extent.

Kooshie, sudgy, Efhw, and mail-mi: I do not know you at all. Could each of you state your familiarity with the game of mafia, your relationship to anyone else on the fourm (if any), and your gender (if you prefer one?). Thanks.

[Jimmmmm]

@EFHW, can we just call you eefoo?

[mcmcsalot]

@EFHW, can we just call you eefoo?

I wasn't asked if I could be called mom salon! but actually efoo would be much easier

[Kooshie]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

[EFHW]

VOTE: Jimmmmm for messing with my name.  Actually, it's fine.

@Robz888 total newbie, but I read the wiki and am following liopoil's other game.  I've played Werewolf irl.

[Jimmmmm]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

ARGH!

[Jimmmmm]

It's gone again! This is freaking me out.

[raerae]

Unvote. Didn't read the flavour hehe. Vote: EFHW to how he reacts. Also, what the heck does EFHW mean?

I'm a she actually.

EFHW doesn't mean anything in particular.  I use it for online games. 

But.... regarding your vote for me, I'm flattered.

Another girl?  Yay!!

[raerae]

@EFHW, can we just call you eefoo?

I wasn't asked if I could be called mom salon! but actually efoo would be much easier

That's because, well, who wouldn't want to be called mom salon??

[raerae]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.

Also, what are people's thoughts if we have a doctor/cop/etc. and they have results from night actions?  When, if ever, should they make those result known?

Please try not to read too far into this, I just reread the set-up and was wondering and am hoping it will get some conversation flowing.

[ashersky]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.

If a player dies during the night, at day start the town will be informed of the death and that player's alignment and role.  If the player that was killed was a power role, they will not be able to say anything about their actions because they will be dead.

[mcmcsalot]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.

Also, what are people's thoughts if we have a doctor/cop/etc. and they have results from night actions?  When, if ever, should they make those result known?

Please try not to read too far into this, I just reread the set-up and was wondering and am hoping it will get some conversation flowing.

I would go ahead and say a cop should only identify themselves if they got a scum result, medic should probably always stay secret. Question to the mod if the medic saves a person from an NK what will be said.

[Robz888]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.

Also, what are people's thoughts if we have a doctor/cop/etc. and they have results from night actions?  When, if ever, should they make those result known?

Please try not to read too far into this, I just reread the set-up and was wondering and am hoping it will get some conversation flowing.

Absolutely, these are goo things for the newbies to know, too.

If you are a Cop, and you receive a scum result, you should immediately come forward.

If you receive a town result, you should remain silent. If the player you received a town result on is looking like the person we are going to lynch, try to argue forcefully against this lynch without giving away that you are the Cop. It is probably preferable for that person to be lynched, rather than to lose your cover.

If the Cop comes forward, and there is a Doctor, it is imperative that the Doctor remain secret, and protect the Cop. If there is a Jailkeeper instead of a Doctor, you may still consider jailing the Cop to keep him safe, maybe 50% of the time.

[Robz888]

And if someone claims a role, and you know they are lying because you are that role, you MUST come forward.

[ashersky]

Question to the mod if the medic saves a person from an NK what will be said.

If no players die during the night, at day start the town will be informed of that, and nothing else.

[mcmcsalot]

so I think the medic should treat saving someone the same way cop treats finding town, if they are going to be lynched argue for them but don't come out as medic.

[raerae]

If you are a Cop, and you receive a scum result, you should immediately come forward.

Is there benefit to seeing how the day plays out instead of claiming right away?  My thoughts are that town may benefit from more interaction, possibly find their scum friend? 

New folks, any ideas?

[mcmcsalot]

If you are a Cop, and you receive a scum result, you should immediately come forward.

Is there benefit to seeing how the day plays out instead of claiming right away?  My thoughts are that town may benefit from more interaction, possibly find their scum friend? 

New folks, any ideas?

this is a great idea, obviously don't let the day drag too some ridiculous point,(I doubt that will happen here) but let them interact with people

[raerae]

If you are a Cop, and you receive a scum result, you should immediately come forward.

Is there benefit to seeing how the day plays out instead of claiming right away?  My thoughts are that town may benefit from more interaction, possibly find their scum friend? 

New folks, any ideas?

this is a great idea, obviously don't let the day drag too some ridiculous point,(I doubt that will happen here) but let them interact with people

What are you talking about mcmc?  Days never drag on too long...

[Robz888]

so I think the medic should treat saving someone the same way cop treats finding town, if they are going to be lynched argue for them but don't come out as medic.

What? The medic doesn't end up knowing things the way the cop does. If the medic saves someone and nobody dies, it could be because the Jailkeeper jailed the killer or victim.

If you know there's no JK, and there is a Cop, then yeah, a Doctor who saves someone and then no one dies knows that person is innocent.

[raerae]

But no jail keeper in this set-up, correct?

[mcmcsalot]

This game will use the F11 set-up.  (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=F11)

The set-up will be chosen at random from these four options:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

yea this is it.

[Robz888]

But no jail keeper in this set-up, correct?

Oh, jeez. Sorry. I assumed this was the normal setup. It's a different one. Okay. Interesting. Ignore everything I said about a Jailkeeper.

[mail-mi]

Hello.

Important information for new players:

I am Robz888. I am the most frequent player of Forum Mafia; I have played every single game hosted here. Mcmcsalot is my brother, who recently joined the community.

Jimm and raerae are newer players, but I've already gotten to know them fairly well. Liopoil, too, to a lesser extent.

Kooshie, sudgy, Efhw, and mail-mi: I do not know you at all. Could each of you state your familiarity with the game of mafia, your relationship to anyone else on the fourm (if any), and your gender (if you prefer one?). Thanks.

Hey I'm mail-mi, I'm male (mail, get it?). I own the game Werewolf (different version of Mafia, if you don't know) and I love it. I'm usually the mod. irl, so I know how rl mafia works. I don't have any relationship to really anybody on the forum.

[mail-mi]

VOTE: mail-mi 'cause he/she seems to like mail.

Aww, come on!

P.S. mail is there for an entirely different purpose. I like email much more than mail

[liopoil]

you say that if a cop comes forward and you are the doctor you should protect the cop. I'm not so sure about this. if there is a cop and doc then there is also a role-blocker. roleblocker will block the cop, so maybe it is worth saving somebody else. Not sure about this though... This makes the cop less valuable, because once the cop hits scum once there is a 50-50 chance that the cop will never get another result. unless we lynch the roleblocker. If the roleblocker is lynched and you are the cop you should come forward and the doc will protect you, at which point town will be well on its way to victory .

Theory talk over. RVS time.

Vote: sudgy for being the last one to post. this is only 99.9% RVS.

[raerae]

@lio, I am, admittedly, terrible at math.  Can you spell out how you came up with 50/50 probability here? 

@mail-mi, how do you anticipate forum mafia being different than IRL?  Other than the obvious: lacking visuals. 

[liopoil]

if there is a cop then there are two possible scenarios, 2 goons, 1 cop, 6 townies, or 1 goon, one roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doc, 5 townies. the if there is a roleblocker he will block the cop once he has come forward. Of these two scenarios, one has a roleblocker, one doesn't. so 50/50 chance of cop being blocked forever. Actually now that I think about it if there ISN'T a roleblocker then scum will NK the cop, so when a cop gets a scum result, that will be their last result.

[mcmcsalot]

if there is a cop then there are two possible scenarios, 2 goons, 1 cop, 6 townies, or 1 goon, one roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doc, 5 townies. the if there is a roleblocker he will block the cop once he has come forward. Of these two scenarios, one has a roleblocker, one doesn't. so 50/50 chance of cop being blocked forever. Actually now that I think about it if there ISN'T a roleblocker then scum will NK the cop, so when a cop gets a scum result, that will be their last result.

wow very good catch, any thoughts on cop waiting to get two results if they get a scum result on night 1?

[sudgy]

Hello.

Important information for new players:

I am Robz888. I am the most frequent player of Forum Mafia; I have played every single game hosted here. Mcmcsalot is my brother, who recently joined the community.

Jimm and raerae are newer players, but I've already gotten to know them fairly well. Liopoil, too, to a lesser extent.

Kooshie, sudgy, Efhw, and mail-mi: I do not know you at all. Could each of you state your familiarity with the game of mafia, your relationship to anyone else on the fourm (if any), and your gender (if you prefer one?). Thanks.

I've played a lot irl.  I tend to be one of the better-ish players in my group.  I don't know anyone else on the forum (at least that I'm aware of), and I'm male.

Vote: sudgy for being the last one to post. this is only 99.9% RVS.

I just forgot that it started today.  I did some work, played dominion, then thought, "Oh yeah!  It starts today!"


As for who's scum, I have no idea.  I'll refrain from voting for now.

[raerae]

Wait a second!  Are we still in RVS? 

Vote: Robz

[sudgy]

@mail-mi, how do you anticipate forum mafia being different than IRL?  Other than the obvious: lacking visuals.

Actually, I'm already noticing a big difference.  When playing irl, I'm forced to observe everything.  On here, I have to force myself to observe everything.  I didn't expect this much of a difference...  (and I know, we've barely started.)

[sudgy]

Alright, to do more:

Vote: raerae for asking a lot of questions.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.1:

Kooshie (2): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot
Jimmmmm (2): Kooshie, EFHW
sudgy (1): liopoil
Robz888 (1): raerae
raerae (1): sudgy

Not Voting (2): mail-mi, Robz888

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[raerae]

Alright, to do more:

Vote: raerae for asking a lot of questions.

People are always telling me to shut up...never works...

[EFHW]

if there is a cop then there are two possible scenarios, 2 goons, 1 cop, 6 townies, or 1 goon, one roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doc, 5 townies. the if there is a roleblocker he will block the cop once he has come forward. Of these two scenarios, one has a roleblocker, one doesn't. so 50/50 chance of cop being blocked forever. Actually now that I think about it if there ISN'T a roleblocker then scum will NK the cop, so when a cop gets a scum result, that will be their last result.

wow very good catch, any thoughts on cop waiting to get two results if they get a scum result on night 1?

I'd say no.  The chances of hitting scum again in your next inquiry are small and the benefits of knowing are high, so it's pro-town to claim before the next vote.  What do the more experienced players think?

[Jorbles]

A bell rings. Jorbles pushes out a tray of drinks.

"Drinks are available for anyone who wishes to partake. As per Master Ashersky's specifications, I can guarantee that they are probably not poisoned."

[raerae]

if there is a cop then there are two possible scenarios, 2 goons, 1 cop, 6 townies, or 1 goon, one roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doc, 5 townies. the if there is a roleblocker he will block the cop once he has come forward. Of these two scenarios, one has a roleblocker, one doesn't. so 50/50 chance of cop being blocked forever. Actually now that I think about it if there ISN'T a roleblocker then scum will NK the cop, so when a cop gets a scum result, that will be their last result.

wow very good catch, any thoughts on cop waiting to get two results if they get a scum result on night 1?

I'd say no.  The chances of hitting scum again in your next inquiry are small and the benefits of knowing are high, so it's pro-town to claim before the next vote.  What do the more experienced players think?

I just wouldn't want to chance the NK while sitting on valuable information.

[sudgy]

A bell rings. Jorbles pushes out a tray of drinks.

"Drinks are available for anyone who wishes to partake. As per Master Ashersky's specifications, I can guarantee that they are probably not poisoned."

But they probably are...  BY RAERAE!   

[sudgy]

A bell rings. Jorbles pushes out a tray of drinks.

"Drinks are available for anyone who wishes to partake. As per Master Ashersky's specifications, I can guarantee that they are probably not poisoned."

But they probably are...  BY RAERAE!   

Seriously though, we need to get the game going...

[sudgy]

Oops, forgot I couldn't edit and quoted myself...  Hehe...

[raerae]

A bell rings. Jorbles pushes out a tray of drinks.

"Drinks are available for anyone who wishes to partake. As per Master Ashersky's specifications, I can guarantee that they are probably not poisoned."

But they probably are...  BY RAERAE!   

I would never poison good alcohol.  If it's crap on the other hand...

[sudgy]

Also, just curious, are we allowed to PM each other (not that I'm saying I want to, just for future reference)?

[shraeye]

No.

[ashersky]

Also, just curious, are we allowed to PM each other (not that I'm saying I want to, just for future reference)?

As shraeye kindly pointed out, absolutely not.  I'll refer folks back to the opening post of this thread for the rules, but to reiterate:

No communication outside of this thread with anyone else.
No editing posts, ever.  If you need to make a correction, quote yourself.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, there's not terribly much to go on yet, so I'll just post some thoughts about a couple of players.

I find both Robz and raerae really hard to read. Robz is generally pretty crazy. And he's generally more crazy when he's Town, I think. Plenty of times I have found myself thinking, "That's sooo scummy. But it's Robz..." I do have a couple of theories about him though, so we'll see how that plays out.
raerae is raerae. She's in your face, and loves a good argument. We haven't seen scum raerae before, so I really have no idea if she'll be any different when she's scum. I was thinking it might be even harder to read her this game with so many Newbies, which might make such arguments less likely. But we do have Robz, so I'm sure he'll do some sort of stirring.

I'm also currently playing a game with mcmc and lio, but I can't really comment on that, and I'm really not sure what I think of them in general.

[Jimmmmm]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.\

I don't think this part of your post was actually answered, so I'll give it a crack. If a Cop dies, everything they have learned and not shared goes to the grave with them. So if they are NKed, I guess they have some info to share with the spectators if they choose to. In general, this is the same for a Mafia investigative role, for example a Mafia Rolecop: the info is given to them via PM, not via the Mafia QT, so if they die that night their team doesn't get that info. Also in most games, unless you have some weird role madness role, nothing is ever mod-confirmed to the whole Town, except for, you know, setup and ICs (mod-confirmed Town players) etc.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, time to get something going. Unvote.

The scummiest thing in the game so far has been Kooshie's defensiveness and over-eagerness to please. So I will Vote: Kooshie again, for a real reason this time.

[mcmcsalot]

Just to clarify my vote is not rvs, I am also voting for what I found to be the only scummy play so far.

[Jorbles]

Question (either directed at Jimmmmm, Robz, or the mods, whoever answers first):  If mafia chooses to NK a doctor/cop/etc., does town get to know the result of the doctor/cop/etc. night actions if they were performed?  Assuming no mafia roleblocker was involved.\

I don't think this part of your post was actually answered, so I'll give it a crack. If a Cop dies, everything they have learned and not shared goes to the grave with them. So if they are NKed, I guess they have some info to share with the spectators if they choose to. In general, this is the same for a Mafia investigative role, for example a Mafia Rolecop: the info is given to them via PM, not via the Mafia QT, so if they die that night their team doesn't get that info. Also in most games, unless you have some weird role madness role, nothing is ever mod-confirmed to the whole Town, except for, you know, setup and ICs (mod-confirmed Town players) etc.

"What master Jimmmmmmmmmm says is correct."

[EFHW]

VOTE: Robz888 for not voting yet.  Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.  She voted for him without even a made up reason, maybe distancing herself from association with him.

[raerae]

VOTE: Robz888 for not voting yet.  Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.  She voted for him without even a made up reason, maybe distancing herself from association with him.

Naw, I voted for Robz because so often RVS devolves into Robz Voting Stage and I don't think I've ever participated in that.

A Robz-raerae scumteam would be hilarious though! We rarely see eye to eye so that would be an evil mod/fate joke.

[raerae]

Mcmc and jimmmmm, can you quote kooshie's defensiveness? I'm not finding it. Also on my phone so that could be part of it.

[Jimmmmm]

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

[Robz888]

Okay, there's not terribly much to go on yet, so I'll just post some thoughts about a couple of players.

I find both Robz and raerae really hard to read. Robz is generally pretty crazy. And he's generally more crazy when he's Town, I think. Plenty of times I have found myself thinking, "That's sooo scummy. But it's Robz..." I do have a couple of theories about him though, so we'll see how that plays out.
raerae is raerae. She's in your face, and loves a good argument. We haven't seen scum raerae before, so I really have no idea if she'll be any different when she's scum. I was thinking it might be even harder to read her this game with so many Newbies, which might make such arguments less likely. But we do have Robz, so I'm sure he'll do some sort of stirring.

I'm also currently playing a game with mcmc and lio, but I can't really comment on that, and I'm really not sure what I think of them in general.

Jimm, I'm definitely crazy sometimes. I'm probably more likely to be crazy when I'm town, but I'm a lot more likely to be crazy in a role madness, bastard, or even blitz game. I take the regular games (like this one) most seriously.

[Robz888]

VOTE: Robz888 for not voting yet.  Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.  She voted for him without even a made up reason, maybe distancing herself from association with him.

i haven't voted because I have no serious suspicions and I abhor non-serious voting.

[raerae]

New folk, I see sudgy answered Robz' question about previous play but I don't see that anybody else has. Will you?  And to be fair, I guess the rest of us who haven't probably could too. At least so we all know who we're playing with/against.

This is my 4th game ever of mafia, all on forum, I have twin claims with two people not in this game, shraeye (boyfriend) and TheMunch (his roommate), as Jimmmm said, I am a bit provactive but that's just how I scumhunt.

[sudgy]

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

[Robz888]

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

[sudgy]

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

First, this is only a suspicion.  I won't say, "I won't vote for anybody who isn't Robz or raerae," but for now it's just something I'm thinking.  Raerae (man, your name is hard to type) has been asking a lot of questions, but that might be how he plays.  Your trying to make me think about it could also make it seem like you're scum too.  Of course, this could just be how you play too.  I've never seen any of you playing before, so I can't make any conclusive statements about anybody quite yet.

[Robz888]

RR is a girl, btw.

[sudgy]

RR is a girl, btw.

Oops.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.2:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (1): Kooshie
sudgy (1): liopoil
Robz888 (2): raerae, EFHW
raerae (1): sudgy

Not Voting (2): mail-mi, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[sudgy]

I'm going to change my vote to Vote: Robz888 partly because he's one of my semi-suspicions and because I want to see what having someone with more than two votes will do (with how others will react).

[mcmcsalot]

first possible scum team, sudgy/kooshie. a vote to kooshie or robz would have put them at 3, what is your reason for finding robz scummy?

[Kooshie]

Unvote because I voted Jimm for a terrible reason, and now, reflecting upon it, Jimm has not been acting scummy at all, and I want to vote somewhat seriously

[liopoil]

Unvote RVS is over. I might be up for Robz voting stage though

[raerae]

Oh good gravy!  The one time I vote in RVS it turns into something.

UNVOTE

[sudgy]

first possible scum team, sudgy/kooshie. a vote to kooshie or robz would have put them at 3, what is your reason for finding robz scummy?

Mainly, raerae was acting a very slight bit suspicious, and someone else said that a raerae/robz team.  I just found it more likely (even if not that much) that robz would be it than kooshie.

Oh good gravy!  The one time I vote in RVS it turns into something.

UNVOTE

And, raerae instantly switched his vote...  Just what I was checking for...

[ashersky]

And, raerae instantly switched his vote...  Just what I was checking for...

RR is a girl, btw.

Oops.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.3:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (2): EFHW, sudgy

Not Voting (5): Kooshie, liopoil, mail-mi, raerae, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[raerae]

first possible scum team, sudgy/kooshie. a vote to kooshie or robz would have put them at 3, what is your reason for finding robz scummy?

Mainly, raerae was acting a very slight bit suspicious, and someone else said that a raerae/robz team.  I just found it more likely (even if not that much) that robz would be it than kooshie.

Oh good gravy!  The one time I vote in RVS it turns into something.

UNVOTE

And, raerae instantly switched his vote...  Just what I was checking for...

False, false, false.  Raerae switched her vote HOURS later because there is no case here.  I normally only vote when a case has been presented that has some logical bearing.  My vote was clearly RVS (and you can bet your fanny that will never happen again).  If you have some actual evidence to present against either Robz, please bring it forward.  It's awful difficult to support a gut feeling.

Additionally, how was I being suspicious?

[sudgy]

And, raerae instantly switched his vote...  Just what I was checking for...

RR is a girl, btw.

Oops.

*Pulls out hair* ARGH!  Sorry, raerae, I'm just used to referring to everybody as "he."

first possible scum team, sudgy/kooshie. a vote to kooshie or robz would have put them at 3, what is your reason for finding robz scummy?

Mainly, raerae was acting a very slight bit suspicious, and someone else said that a raerae/robz team.  I just found it more likely (even if not that much) that robz would be it than kooshie.

Oh good gravy!  The one time I vote in RVS it turns into something.

UNVOTE

And, raerae instantly switched his vote...  Just what I was checking for...

False, false, false.  Raerae switched her vote HOURS later because there is no case here.  I normally only vote when a case has been presented that has some logical bearing.  My vote was clearly RVS (and you can bet your fanny that will never happen again).  If you have some actual evidence to present against either Robz, please bring it forward.  It's awful difficult to support a gut feeling.

Additionally, how was I being suspicious?

I'm mainly pushing towards things to get the game moving.  And I said you were just being slightly suspicious.  Just asking a lot of questions.  I'm not set in stone that you two are mafia, it's just that I felt doing things like this would let me see people's reactions.  If we got close to having all the votes for robz or you, I would consider it more seriously whether to still vote for you or not.

And if you guys think I'm over-analyzing, it's just how I play this game.  (you guys might not believe me, but oh well.)

[EFHW]

@raerae Why so mad?

[liopoil]

it's how she plays efhw.

sudgy: lots of analysis is great, but currently there really isn't much to go off of.

[EFHW]

@mcmc  Why did you mention a possible sudgy/kooshie team?

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

[raerae]

Crap, do you guys really read me as mad? That's a bummer. I swear I'm not mad at least 99.7% of the time!

[liopoil]

I didn't read you as mad. I read you as raerae.

[raerae]

I'd like to hear from Kooshie. Where's that krazy kat?

[Jimmmmm]

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

If the Robz/raerae speculation is based off raerae RVSing Robz, then I'd say a Robz/raerae team looks just about as likely as any other scumteam.

[sudgy]

@mcmc  Why did you mention a possible sudgy/kooshie team?

He was wondering why I didn't vote for kooshie when I was saying I was seeing what would happen if I voted for someone to bring them up to three votes.

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

If the Robz/raerae speculation is based off raerae RVSing Robz, then I'd say a Robz/raerae team looks just about as likely as any other scumteam.

Raerae was there for that "slightly suspicious" behaviour, and then the Robz was for him RVSing him.

[mcmcsalot]

sudgy is correct with why I thought that a sudgy/kooshie team was possible

[mail-mi]

Sorry, I'm gone for a while on most Thursdays. Just caught up with the reading.

I Vote: Robz888 because he's not defending himself from his other votes.

@mcmc  Why did you mention a possible sudgy/kooshie team?

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

Hmmm... seems likely. And it's mail-mi, the -mi is very important 

[mcmcsalot]

raerae is not mad shes very sassy, you will understand quickly.

also I don't give sudgy that much credit for the post he made

I'm mainly pushing towards things to get the game moving.  And I said you were just being slightly suspicious.  Just asking a lot of questions.  I'm not set in stone that you two are mafia, it's just that I felt doing things like this would let me see people's reactions.  If we got close to having all the votes for robz or you, I would consider it more seriously whether to still vote for you or not.

And if you guys think I'm over-analyzing, it's just how I play this game.  (you guys might not believe me, but oh well.)

He is mainly clarifying himself and doing it in a way I find defensive, I like the idea of pushing conversation along but the end part is something I can see scum saying. Like oh crap I guess I pushed too hard I should cover my tracks with a thats just me post.

[sudgy]

raerae is not mad shes very sassy, you will understand quickly.

also I don't give sudgy that much credit for the post he made

I'm mainly pushing towards things to get the game moving.  And I said you were just being slightly suspicious.  Just asking a lot of questions.  I'm not set in stone that you two are mafia, it's just that I felt doing things like this would let me see people's reactions.  If we got close to having all the votes for robz or you, I would consider it more seriously whether to still vote for you or not.

And if you guys think I'm over-analyzing, it's just how I play this game.  (you guys might not believe me, but oh well.)

He is mainly clarifying himself and doing it in a way I find defensive, I like the idea of pushing conversation along but the end part is something I can see scum saying. Like oh crap I guess I pushed too hard I should cover my tracks with a thats just me post.

I considered not saying the last part for that reason, but I felt like I should say it.  I was thinking that people would think I am scum and accuse me for that.

[mcmcsalot]

yes, its that that worries me. Normally you only worry people will think I'm mafia if your mafia.

[EFHW]

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

If the Robz/raerae speculation is based off raerae RVSing Robz, then I'd say a Robz/raerae team looks just about as likely as any other scumteam.

I noticed Robz hadn't voted, and thought that was a good excuse for "pinging" him.  Then I noticed raerae's "oh is it RVS?", which didn't quite ring true to me, so I mentioned both ideas. 

So what's the protocol here?  From reading DS9, it seems like people state their observations and their estimate of the "scumminess" of people's posts/votes/actions, meaning "sounding like could be scum talking", NOT "this is a scummy person/post".  Of what I've seen so far, Robz's lurking and raerae's defensiveness seem the "scummiest".  raerae's reaction seems extreme to me.

VOTE: raerae

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.4:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (2): sudgy, mail-mi
raerae (1): EFHW

Not Voting (4): Kooshie, liopoil, raerae, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Please note, it's sliding into weekend territory here, and Monday is Australia Day.  Expect fewer vote counts over the long weekend.  I'll be checking in, and Jorbles is a more than capable Deputy.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[raerae]

@efhw, why is Robz' lurkiness more suspect than Kooshie's? 

[mail-mi]

I'm a really-newbie to forum games, what's RVS?

[raerae]

I'm a really-newbie to forum games, what's RVS?

Originally stood of Random Voting Stage, recently (semi)jokingly became known as Robz Voting Stage.

Veterany vets, correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[EFHW]

@efhw, why is Robz' lurkiness more suspect than Kooshie's?

At that point, kooshie was being really active. 

[ashersky]

I'm a really-newbie to forum games, what's RVS?

Generally speaking, Random Voting Stage.  Also: Robz888 Voting Stage, Relentless Voltgloss Syndrome.

See this thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0) for more lingo tips.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm a really-newbie to forum games, what's RVS?

Originally stood of Random Voting Stage, recently (semi)jokingly became known as Robz Voting Stage.

Veterany vets, correct me if I'm wrong, please.

I'm not particularly Veterany, but this is correct, and I interpreted raerae's "RVS" as Robz Voting Stage. I've yet to see any substantial reason to have anything but a nullread on both Robz and raerae.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, I don't have terribly much to say about the game specifically at this point, so I'll mention some less specific things.

Firstly, it would be absolutely wonderful if those of us who don't have something listed under Goko or isotropic username could put something down (preferable for exactly one of them). This helps immensely with re-reading people, that is, reading each post of a particular person in order to develop analysis on them, as it gives something to Ctrl-F.

Secondly, a note on how long the game should take, game-day wise. We're currently at 7-2, that is, 7 Town-2 scum. Worst case, it's 5-2 day 2, and 3-2 day 3. 3-2 is lylo, which means "lynch or lose", ie if we mislynch at lylo, scum wins. If we manage to hit scum day 1, that'll put it at 6-1 day 2, and then if we mislynch, 4-1 day 3 and 2-1 day 4, again at lylo. So, without any Doctor intervention, the game will last for either 2 (flawless Town win), 3 (flawless Mafia win) or 4 days.

Next, LaLL, that is, Lynch all Lurkers, Literally (the Literally part was added on by Robz). What we do every game is argue for a while, make some cases, then do a post count and just lynch the person with the least number of posts. In this way, Town wins almost every game. Okay, not really, but there seems to be somewhat of a cycle where during the game people say "Lynch the lurkers", but then they say, "No I think we can do better than just LaLL", but then after the game they say "We should have LaLLed". So yeah, for whatever reason scum seem to post less than Town, so that's something to watch out for. So this is not to say "Everyone post heaps or we'll lynch you", but if you genuinely want to catch scum, then do your best to contribute as much meaningful content as you can.

[sudgy]

Firstly, it would be absolutely wonderful if those of us who don't have something listed under Goko or isotropic username could put something down (preferable for exactly one of them). This helps immensely with re-reading people, that is, reading each post of a particular person in order to develop analysis on them, as it gives something to Ctrl-F.

I feel stupid for saying this, but I don't quite get what you mean by this...  All I see underneath the isotropic/goko username is the avatar and the little icons, neither of which can be Ctrl+Fed...  Could you say it a little more clearly?

Next, LaLL, that is, Lynch all Lurkers, Literally (the Literally part was added on by Robz). What we do every game is argue for a while, make some cases, then do a post count and just lynch the person with the least number of posts. In this way, Town wins almost every game. Okay, not really, but there seems to be somewhat of a cycle where during the game people say "Lynch the lurkers", but then they say, "No I think we can do better than just LaLL", but then after the game they say "We should have LaLLed". So yeah, for whatever reason scum seem to post less than Town, so that's something to watch out for. So this is not to say "Everyone post heaps or we'll lynch you", but if you genuinely want to catch scum, then do your best to contribute as much meaningful content as you can.

I feel like playing that way would make the game less fun.  Would you rather just play Big Money or a complex strategy? (I hope no one signed up on the dominionstrategy forum just to play mafia.)

[Jimmmmm]

Firstly, it would be absolutely wonderful if those of us who don't have something listed under Goko or isotropic username could put something down (preferable for exactly one of them). This helps immensely with re-reading people, that is, reading each post of a particular person in order to develop analysis on them, as it gives something to Ctrl-F.

I feel stupid for saying this, but I don't quite get what you mean by this...  All I see underneath the isotropic/goko username is the avatar and the little icons, neither of which can be Ctrl+Fed...  Could you say it a little more clearly?

If you Ctrl-F "sudgy", you'll get all your posts plus everywhere that someone has typed your name, so that's not particularly useful. But you Ctrl-F "Isotropic username: sudgy", or just "me: sudgy", you'll get just your posts.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh and this is most useful if you select "All", rather than just a particular page.

[Robz888]

I sure have a lot of votes. Why is this? Explain yourselves.

I can't yet tell the new people apart from one another.

[mcmcsalot]

@efhw, why is Robz' lurkiness more suspect than Kooshie's?

At that point, kooshie was being really active.

There has been no point other than before robz was even here that koshie was more active, he is the least active person here. So your previous post is false.

[EFHW]

@efhw, why is Robz' lurkiness more suspect than Kooshie's?

At that point, kooshie was being really active.

There has been no point other than before robz was even here that koshie was more active, he is the least active person here. So your previous post is false.

I'm also no longer voting for Robz.  Let's hear some alternate theories.  I'm open-minded.

[sudgy]

I'm also no longer voting for Robz.  Let's hear some alternate theories.  I'm open-minded.

I think one reason I was thinking of raerae was because of the way she reacted to my accusations.  (To the people that know her better, you might prove me wrong.)

[EFHW]

I'm also no longer voting for Robz.  Let's hear some alternate theories.  I'm open-minded.

I think one reason I was thinking of raerae was because of the way she reacted to my accusations.  (To the people that know her better, you might prove me wrong.)

same here

[sudgy]

I'm going to change my vote back to Vote: raerae.

[raerae]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

[mail-mi]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

[raerae]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

I hope there is sarcasm here because if not, well, that's just absurd.  I've also asked Kooshie to say things.  Why not throw him in with my scumteam?  Robz and Kooshie have been the quietest so far.  We can't analyze everything unless everybody talks. 

Ponder this for a moment, if Robz and I were on a team why would I continue to directly engage him in conversation when anything and everything I say to him/about him/can be construed as somehow relating to him, is just one more strike against me? 

Ya'll are going to get to China at the rate you're tunneling. 

[mail-mi]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

I hope there is sarcasm here because if not, well, that's just absurd.  I've also asked Kooshie to say things.  Why not throw him in with my scumteam?  Robz and Kooshie have been the quietest so far.  We can't analyze everything unless everybody talks. 

Ponder this for a moment, if Robz and I were on a team why would I continue to directly engage him in conversation when anything and everything I say to him/about him/can be construed as somehow relating to him, is just one more strike against me? 

Ya'll are going to get to China at the rate you're tunneling.

Yeah, it's mostly sarcasm.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 1.5:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (1): mail-mi
raerae (2): EFHW, sudgy

Not Voting (4): Kooshie, liopoil, raerae, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[Kooshie]

I'd like to hear from Kooshie. Where's that krazy kat?

kat...?

[Kooshie]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

I hope there is sarcasm here because if not, well, that's just absurd.  I've also asked Kooshie to say things.  Why not throw him in with my scumteam?  Robz and Kooshie have been the quietest so far.  We can't analyze everything unless everybody talks. 

Ponder this for a moment, if Robz and I were on a team why would I continue to directly engage him in conversation when anything and everything I say to him/about him/can be construed as somehow relating to him, is just one more strike against me? 

Ya'll are going to get to China at the rate you're tunneling.

I'm a girl.  Also, it does seem like I'm lurking, but I was very busy yesterday, and usually will be on all thursdays.  I haven't played before, so I'm not sure how to best go about trying to figure out who's scum, so I guess being lurky is just my strategy right now.  I'll try to change that.

[raerae]

I'm a girl.  Also, it does seem like I'm lurking, but I was very busy yesterday, and usually will be on all thursdays.  I haven't played before, so I'm not sure how to best go about trying to figure out who's scum, so I guess being lurky is just my strategy right now.  I'll try to change that.

I don't know what to tell you about scumhunting but lurking only works for a few lucky souls.  You could start by giving your thoughts on the reads so far.  Every little bit of conversation helps.

[Kooshie]

@mcmc  Why did you mention a possible sudgy/kooshie team?

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

I'm not sure.  they haven't exactly been acting like they're both scum, but neither of them are very town read to me.  I think that it is very plausible, but, then again, I don't feel like we have quite enough to go on.  Or, at least, I feel I don't.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't like the robz/raerae speculation, I know raerae is an easy mislynch to force, I did so in my first game as a complete newbie. Robz is my brother and I feel I have done well reading him in the past, he has not posted enough for me to get a read on him but I have nothing to tell me hes scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Actually come to think of it he has done something that rings town with me but I don't want to say as if he is scum he could continue to do it to throw me off.

[EFHW]

Since we need more to go on, how about everyone gives their answer to this question:

Which part of being scum would be/is the most fun?  The least?

I'll start and say most fun would be having someone to plot with and least would be being called "scum". 

[raerae]

Since we need more to go on, how about everyone gives their answer to this question:

Which part of being scum would be/is the most fun?  The least?

I'll start and say most fun would be having someone to plot with and least would be being called "scum".

I really don't think it sounds fun.  Does that make me strange?  Too much lying and sneaking and second guessing before posting.  IC on the other hand, that was a solid blast and I would play that every time.

@Kooshie, you've played some IRL, yes?  What do you consider town play?  Scum play?

[sudgy]

Since we need more to go on, how about everyone gives their answer to this question:

Which part of being scum would be/is the most fun?  The least?

I'll start and say most fun would be having someone to plot with and least would be being called "scum".

Most fun, having something different than you usually do (I tend to get very unlucky in irl games and almost never get mafia)...  Least, having to worry about if you are acting too suspicious (I still worry about this as town, but not as much).

[Jimmmmm]

I must say I don't particularly like playing as scum, although it's kind of cool to be able to plot in secret and to have more knowledge than most. When I'm Town and someone calls me scum, I can think to myself, "Well at least if they're Town they'll end up knowing that they're wrong." But as scum you have to argue for things that you know are not true, which isn't something I really enjoy doing.

[sudgy]

Something I noticed, is that EFHW seemed awfully certain that raerae is mafia...  Why is that?

[Jimmmmm]

Something I noticed, is that EFHW seemed awfully certain that raerae is mafia...  Why is that?

Re-read eefoo, and I didn't get "awfully certain" from it. Here is what she's said about her:

VOTE: Robz888 for not voting yet.  Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.  She voted for him without even a made up reason, maybe distancing herself from association with him.

@raerae Why so mad?

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

I noticed Robz hadn't voted, and thought that was a good excuse for "pinging" him.  Then I noticed raerae's "oh is it RVS?", which didn't quite ring true to me, so I mentioned both ideas. 

So what's the protocol here?  From reading DS9, it seems like people state their observations and their estimate of the "scumminess" of people's posts/votes/actions, meaning "sounding like could be scum talking", NOT "this is a scummy person/post".  Of what I've seen so far, Robz's lurking and raerae's defensiveness seem the "scummiest".  raerae's reaction seems extreme to me.

VOTE: raerae

What of this strikes you as awfully certain?

[sudgy]

Something I noticed, is that EFHW seemed awfully certain that raerae is mafia...  Why is that?

Re-read eefoo, and I didn't get "awfully certain" from it. Here is what she's said about her:

VOTE: Robz888 for not voting yet.  Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.  She voted for him without even a made up reason, maybe distancing herself from association with him.

@raerae Why so mad?

@Jimmmmm, mcmc, mail, Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 
   Jimmmmm, you know them the best.

I noticed Robz hadn't voted, and thought that was a good excuse for "pinging" him.  Then I noticed raerae's "oh is it RVS?", which didn't quite ring true to me, so I mentioned both ideas. 

So what's the protocol here?  From reading DS9, it seems like people state their observations and their estimate of the "scumminess" of people's posts/votes/actions, meaning "sounding like could be scum talking", NOT "this is a scummy person/post".  Of what I've seen so far, Robz's lurking and raerae's defensiveness seem the "scummiest".  raerae's reaction seems extreme to me.

VOTE: raerae

What of this strikes you as awfully certain?

Mainly the last post.  Especially that last sentence, "raerae's reaction seems extreme to me."

[Kooshie]

Since we need more to go on, how about everyone gives their answer to this question:

Which part of being scum would be/is the most fun?  The least?

I'll start and say most fun would be having someone to plot with and least would be being called "scum".

I really don't think it sounds fun.  Does that make me strange?  Too much lying and sneaking and second guessing before posting.  IC on the other hand, that was a solid blast and I would play that every time.

@Kooshie, you've played some IRL, yes?  What do you consider town play?  Scum play?

I've once, a long time ago.  Honestly, I'm not exactly sure.  When I say I've really played before, I mean apart from the one IRL game I played.  Scum play, in part, I think, is having sudden changes on who they think is scum(after RVS)depending on how many people think that person is scum.  When saying their reason for switching their vote, I think they say something that takes up a lot of room, but doesn't say much.  Like, "I think this person is scum because they have been acting scummy.  They said this, and I interpret this as something that means nothing, and a bunch of stuff other people said, just in 'my own words'" Of course, not only scum do this, I'm sure town also do, if they don't have any real suspicions and don't want to be lynched, and not all scum do this, I just think it might be something they do.

[mail-mi]

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

[Kooshie]

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts.  Lke I've been trying to do.  Vote: Robz

[EFHW]

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts.  Lke I've been trying to do.  Vote: Robz

Maybe he doesn't take a newbie game as seriously.

[sudgy]

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts.  Lke I've been trying to do.  Vote: Robz

Maybe he doesn't take a newbie game as seriously.

He was posting a fair amount before...  I'm not sure.

[mcmcsalot]

weekends are sadly a low post time for everyone, which makes it a tad difficult to get things moving.

[mcmcsalot]

I guess I can answer the question posed earlier, Best thing about being scum is having a partner or partners to talk with, its an immediate bond since you get to trust someone(my first game here was as scum and a great intro) least was feeling like I would mess it up for my partners.

[EFHW]

Unvote

I have enough doubt about raerae now to unvote, and I'm not voting for anyone else yet,

BUT ...

FYI, Liopoil hasn't posted since 1/24 at 9:52 pm, Robz888 hasn't written since 1/25 at 1:37 am.  Everyone else has posted today, 1/26 as of 10:05 pm. 

What do you guys think?

[EFHW]

Are we allowed to use information from other games currently playing, such as post frequency, recency or content?

[ashersky]

Are we allowed to use information from other games currently playing, such as post frequency, recency or content?

You may not discuss ongoing games.  You may discuss finished games.

You may mention that so-and-so posted in "another thread" but not this one as a way to talk about this game.

Taking into account how players act in other games in general is called "meta discussion" and is often utilized.

[sudgy]

I accuse everyone but me, mcmcsalot, and EFHW for not posting recently. 

[Kooshie]

Unvote

I have enough doubt about raerae now to unvote, and I'm not voting for anyone else yet,

BUT ...

FYI, Liopoil hasn't posted since 1/24 at 9:52 pm, Robz888 hasn't written since 1/25 at 1:37 am.  Everyone else has posted today, 1/26 as of 10:05 pm. 

What do you guys think?

I'm not sure about this, but a possible Liopoil/Robz team?

[liopoil]

Unvote

I have enough doubt about raerae now to unvote, and I'm not voting for anyone else yet,

BUT ...

FYI, Liopoil hasn't posted since 1/24 at 9:52 pm, Robz888 hasn't written since 1/25 at 1:37 am.  Everyone else has posted today, 1/26 as of 10:05 pm. 

What do you guys think?

I'm not sure about this, but a possible Liopoil/Robz team?

All of the combinations of two players are possible scum teams. still, I doubt that BOTH scum would be quiet...

[liopoil]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

I think you know...

This is the third post of the game (not counting jorbles). Seems a tad aggressive...

[liopoil]

Vote Count 1.5:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (1): mail-mi
raerae (2): EFHW, sudgy

Not Voting (4): Kooshie, liopoil, raerae, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

kooshie voted robz since then. FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?

[EFHW]

 FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?[/quote]

I unvoted.  What's FoS?

[Jimmmmm]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

I think you know...

This is the third post of the game (not counting jorbles). Seems a tad aggressive...

And this seems a tad suspicious of obvious RVSing.

[Jimmmmm]

FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?

I unvoted.  What's FoS?
[/quote]

Finger of Suspicion. It's kind of like saying, "I've got my eye on you but I'm not quite ready to vote for you yet."

[Jimmmmm]

FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?

I unvoted.  What's FoS?

Finger of Suspicion. It's kind of like saying, "I've got my eye on you but I'm not quite ready to vote for you yet."

(fixed quoting)

[Jimmmmm]

FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?...

I unvoted.  What's FoS?

Finger of Suspicion. It's kind of like saying, "I've got my eye on you but I'm not quite ready to vote for you yet."

(one more try)

[liopoil]

I realize it was RVS, it just seemed a bit odd. Probably nothing...

*accuses jimmmmm of faking bad quoting to boost post count even though* it's still wrong by the way. (not a serious accusation)

[Jimmmmm]

*accuses jimmmmm of faking bad quoting to boost post count even though* it's still wrong by the way. (not a serious accusation)

Just being pedantic. Oh I see how it's wrong now, at least it's wrong for what was intended. I didn't see the closing quote in EFHW's post until I'd already posted twice. You may subtract 2-3  posts from my post count if you like.

[raerae]

I have a couple concerns.
 
1.  All these people trying to identify scumteams D1.  That seems like a recipe for disaster.  Por ejemplo, we decide X & Y are the scummiest and therefore must be a team.  We lynch X for whatever reason.  X flips town and we cry a bit.  After that I figure it can go two ways: Either a) We were so wrong with X, we must be wrong with Y too and Y gets a townpass for really no reason OR b) Well, they were both so scummy that one off them has to be and BOOM! mislynch two.  I guess there is a third option, we could be right, one or both could be scum, that just seems unlikely this early in the game. 

2.  Identifying scum based on weekend posting (or lack thereof).  That's also dangerous.  Weekends are always slow so unless you have more to go on than just, "X hasn't posted since Saturday morning!" this argument doesn't hold much water.  That being said, Robz is a bit shady for being active in other games on Friday but essentially ignoring this one.

[mcmcsalot]

I have a couple concerns.
 
1.  All these people trying to identify scumteams D1.  That seems like a recipe for disaster.  Por ejemplo, we decide X & Y are the scummiest and therefore must be a team.  We lynch X for whatever reason.  X flips town and we cry a bit.  After that I figure it can go two ways: Either a) We were so wrong with X, we must be wrong with Y too and Y gets a townpass for really no reason OR b) Well, they were both so scummy that one off them has to be and BOOM! mislynch two.  I guess there is a third option, we could be right, one or both could be scum, that just seems unlikely this early in the game. 

2.  Identifying scum based on weekend posting (or lack thereof).  That's also dangerous.  Weekends are always slow so unless you have more to go on than just, "X hasn't posted since Saturday morning!" this argument doesn't hold much water.  That being said, Robz is a bit shady for being active in other games on Friday but essentially ignoring this one.

town posts for you! this is very true, scum teams are a good way to help find a reasonable lynch but I don't think its a good way to find mafia if that makes any sense. I often find my top scum read and go hmm who is a viable partner for this person and then do I already find that person scummy as well. If true it reinforces my first scum feeling and makes my top scum read an even better candidate for lynching. This does not mean you should look for teams as a way of finding scum and it does not mean if one is mafia/town so is the other one.

[sudgy]

I have a couple concerns.
 
1.  All these people trying to identify scumteams D1.  That seems like a recipe for disaster.  Por ejemplo, we decide X & Y are the scummiest and therefore must be a team.  We lynch X for whatever reason.  X flips town and we cry a bit.  After that I figure it can go two ways: Either a) We were so wrong with X, we must be wrong with Y too and Y gets a townpass for really no reason OR b) Well, they were both so scummy that one off them has to be and BOOM! mislynch two.  I guess there is a third option, we could be right, one or both could be scum, that just seems unlikely this early in the game. 

2.  Identifying scum based on weekend posting (or lack thereof).  That's also dangerous.  Weekends are always slow so unless you have more to go on than just, "X hasn't posted since Saturday morning!" this argument doesn't hold much water.  That being said, Robz is a bit shady for being active in other games on Friday but essentially ignoring this one.

Hm...  You mention your first point after people other than you are suspected...

Also, the weekend is when I can post the most...

[mcmcsalot]

liopoil is now on my scum list, I agree with jimm he seems to be overreacting a bit to the very old rvs vote. Also I don't like the fos at people for having strong reads, strong reads is what we want. Also putting people at L-3(not a big deal) is a way to get then to respond and react.

Of these wagons, I was perfectly happy with raerae's defense so I do have a town read on her, I still find kooshie scummy, I don't think enough pressure has been put on him for what I believe to be the only real scummy action in the game so far. Robz is looking more and more like scum as his lack of posting begins to turn into lurking.

[raerae]

Hm...  You mention your first point after people other than you are suspected...

Also, the weekend is when I can post the most...

I mention it now because it seems to have become a "thing."  Before it was just Robz and myself being a team.  When suspicion of me disappeared, I figured people would drop the team thing but then it popped up again with Lio/Robz and I saw a reason to voice that concern. 

[raerae]

liopoil is now on my scum list, I agree with jimm he seems to be overreacting a bit to the very old rvs vote. Also I don't like the fos at people for having strong reads, strong reads is what we want. Also putting people at L-3(not a big deal) is a way to get then to respond and react.

Of these wagons, I was perfectly happy with raerae's defense so I do have a town read on her, I still find kooshie scummy, I don't think enough pressure has been put on him for what I believe to be the only real scummy action in the game so far. Robz is looking more and more like scum as his lack of posting begins to turn into lurking.

Kooshie is a bit on my list too but can you remind me/the rest of the town, is this her early vote on Jimmmmm, defensiveness, and seemingly eager-to-please attitude prior to basically disappearing?

[mcmcsalot]

sudgy this quite interest me

Hm...  You mention your first point after people other than you are suspected...

Are you saying that she should not have expresse her opinion against scumteam hunting because she was suspected as part of a scum team? Or are you saying its interesting that she has mentioned this now long after people were looking for scumteams, as in she waited to say this until suspicion of her had worn off. I think I know the asnwer but would like to hear raerae's response to this.

Ah you answered while I was typing this, this is in fact what I expected, my town read of raerae stands strong

[mcmcsalot]

liopoil is now on my scum list, I agree with jimm he seems to be overreacting a bit to the very old rvs vote. Also I don't like the fos at people for having strong reads, strong reads is what we want. Also putting people at L-3(not a big deal) is a way to get then to respond and react.

Of these wagons, I was perfectly happy with raerae's defense so I do have a town read on her, I still find kooshie scummy, I don't think enough pressure has been put on him for what I believe to be the only real scummy action in the game so far. Robz is looking more and more like scum as his lack of posting begins to turn into lurking.

Kooshie is a bit on my list too but can you remind me/the rest of the town, is this her early vote on Jimmmmm, defensiveness, and seemingly eager-to-please attitude prior to basically disappearing?

This is her early vote on jimm/defensiveness coupled with the actual scum action I speak of. She announced she wanted to put someone at L-3 and voted robz because he was lurking, at that point in time she could also have put I believe efhw to L-3 and he had been lurking more. She defended this by saying robz had been lurking more all game and efhw had not. I looked back and there was never a point except prior to robz first post that efhw was more active then robz. So essentially she put robz at L-3 for a wrong reason, supported it with a wrong reason and when I accused her she simply removed the vote and deflected to looking at other people.

[EFHW]

liopoil is now on my scum list, I agree with jimm he seems to be overreacting a bit to the very old rvs vote. Also I don't like the fos at people for having strong reads, strong reads is what we want. Also putting people at L-3(not a big deal) is a way to get then to respond and react.

Of these wagons, I was perfectly happy with raerae's defense so I do have a town read on her, I still find kooshie scummy, I don't think enough pressure has been put on him for what I believe to be the only real scummy action in the game so far. Robz is looking more and more like scum as his lack of posting begins to turn into lurking.

Kooshie is a bit on my list too but can you remind me/the rest of the town, is this her early vote on Jimmmmm, defensiveness, and seemingly eager-to-please attitude prior to basically disappearing?

This is her early vote on jimm/defensiveness coupled with the actual scum action I speak of. She announced she wanted to put someone at L-3 and voted robz because he was lurking, at that point in time she could also have put I believe efhw to L-3 and he had been lurking more. She defended this by saying robz had been lurking more all game and efhw had not. I looked back and there was never a point except prior to robz first post that efhw was more active then robz. So essentially she put robz at L-3 for a wrong reason, supported it with a wrong reason and when I accused her she simply removed the vote and deflected to looking at other people.

I think this is a bit confused.  I was the one choosing between Robz and Kooshie and chose Robz for lurking.  I've also been pretty consistently active each day, I believe, AND Kooshie never voted against me.  The Jimmmmm vote was clearly RVS and she explained the Thursday absence.  So except for eagerness to please none of those reasons hold water.  She might be scum, I don't know, but not for her voting, IMO. 

[Kooshie]

liopoil is now on my scum list, I agree with jimm he seems to be overreacting a bit to the very old rvs vote. Also I don't like the fos at people for having strong reads, strong reads is what we want. Also putting people at L-3(not a big deal) is a way to get then to respond and react.

Of these wagons, I was perfectly happy with raerae's defense so I do have a town read on her, I still find kooshie scummy, I don't think enough pressure has been put on him for what I believe to be the only real scummy action in the game so far. Robz is looking more and more like scum as his lack of posting begins to turn into lurking.

Kooshie is a bit on my list too but can you remind me/the rest of the town, is this her early vote on Jimmmmm, defensiveness, and seemingly eager-to-please attitude prior to basically disappearing?

This is her early vote on jimm/defensiveness coupled with the actual scum action I speak of. She announced she wanted to put someone at L-3 and voted robz because he was lurking, at that point in time she could also have put I believe efhw to L-3 and he had been lurking more. She defended this by saying robz had been lurking more all game and efhw had not. I looked back and there was never a point except prior to robz first post that efhw was more active then robz. So essentially she put robz at L-3 for a wrong reason, supported it with a wrong reason and when I accused her she simply removed the vote and deflected to looking at other people.

Efhw is right, this post is a bit confused.  It seems that you're saying that efhw wasn't very active(which she was).  Also, you said, "..she could also have put I believe efhw to L-3 and he had been lurking more." doesn't make any sense to me.  What are you trying to say?  It just doesn't sound right.

[mcmcsalot]

wow yes I'm very sorry I completely confused and muddled together a few seperate interaction.
So let me clarify things with some quotes this time, I just reread all the post so far and found the few things I was talking about.

First is my suspicion of Kooshie.

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

This is why I voted for kooshie, and then kooshie proceeded to lurk for quite a while, I have a slight scum read on Kooshie.

Now for the next scummy interaction I found having to do with Sudgy

raerae is not mad shes very sassy, you will understand quickly.

also I don't give sudgy that much credit for the post he made

I'm mainly pushing towards things to get the game moving.  And I said you were just being slightly suspicious.  Just asking a lot of questions.  I'm not set in stone that you two are mafia, it's just that I felt doing things like this would let me see people's reactions.  If we got close to having all the votes for robz or you, I would consider it more seriously whether to still vote for you or not.

And if you guys think I'm over-analyzing, it's just how I play this game.  (you guys might not believe me, but oh well.)

He is mainly clarifying himself and doing it in a way I find defensive, I like the idea of pushing conversation along but the end part is something I can see scum saying. Like oh crap I guess I pushed too hard I should cover my tracks with a thats just me post.

I considered not saying the last part for that reason, but I felt like I should say it.  I was thinking that people would think I am scum and accuse me for that.

This did ring scummy to me as I said at the time for the defensiveness/covering of ones tracks.

Now for the part I messed up before.

@efhw, why is Robz' lurkiness more suspect than Kooshie's?

At that point, kooshie was being really active.

There has been no point other than before robz was even here that koshie was more active, he is the least active person here. So your previous post is false.

It was in fact efhw that I found scummy for giving a wrong reasoning for voting.

[mcmcsalot]

So to summarize and bring my vote up to date(so I don't get confused again)

vote: EFHWthis is my top scum read at the moment

Sudgy and Kooshie are close for me next scum read, though all of the reads are based off things these people have done rather than some people who have been lurking. I am going to do a post count next to see how my scum reads hold up compared to that.

[liopoil]

Kooshie: please edit your profile so that it says your isotropic username is Kooshie, even if you don't have an iso. Makes it much easier to do a post count and to re-read you.

[mcmcsalot]

Robz888: 10
raerae: 27
Jimmmmm: 23
sudgy: 25
liopoil: 11
mcmcsalot: 23
EFHW: 17
Kooshie: 21
Mail-mi: 8

yes it was quite difficult but I got it.
The low posters from this are Mail-mi, Robz, and Liopoil.
I would definitely like to hear more from mail-mi perhaps thoughts on my analysis of efhw/sudgy/kooshie, or thoughts of his own.
I have a slight scum read on liopoil due to lurking post status as well as the fos for people having strong reads.
From this, my scum read of kooshie which was based off of a very early omgus and lurking which she isn't doing. I'm back to a null read on kooshie.
EFHW post count neither clears nor damn's her so I will leave my vote there.

[Kooshie]

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

You haven't posted much, either.  I hadn't noticed that until now, and voted Robz for lurking.  You posted more recently than him, so I won't change my vote quite yet, but according to this(which is extremely helpful, by the way), he posted two posts more than you.

Robz888: 10
raerae: 27
Jimmmmm: 23
sudgy: 25
liopoil: 11
mcmcsalot: 23
EFHW: 17
Kooshie: 21
Mail-mi: 8

yes it was quite difficult but I got it.
The low posters from this are Mail-mi, Robz, and Liopoil.
I would definitely like to hear more from mail-mi perhaps thoughts on my analysis of efhw/sudgy/kooshie, or thoughts of his own.
I have a slight scum read on liopoil due to lurking post status as well as the fos for people having strong reads.
From this, my scum read of kooshie which was based off of a very early omgus and lurking which she isn't doing. I'm back to a null read on kooshie.
EFHW post count neither clears nor damn's her so I will leave my vote there.

I would also like to hear from mail-mi, but Robz, too.  liopoil has been saying more in his posts than them, I think, so I don't have much of a scum read on him.

[sudgy]

Now I'm starting to get a bit suspicious of liopoil and mail-mi...  Both haven't posted much, and when they do post, they aren't doing anything too much.

[Kooshie]

I think that maybe now we're putting a bit too much on what they don't say.  We should look at their posts, and take note of what they said.  Maybe we can derive a bit more information from that.

[liopoil]

sudgy: what would you like me to comment on?

If you wanna talk about lurkers than robz is the one right now. He hasn't posted for the longest and many of his posts haven't had much content. Most of what he has contributed has been theory talk.

[liopoil]

thank you kooshie, I am now going to go read everything you have said.

[liopoil]

The post count is off. Kooshie has 13 posts, not 21

[sudgy]

sudgy: what would you like me to comment on?

Mainly saying your thoughts on things, or maybe new ideas.  You haven't said many things that have made me think about it too much.

If you wanna talk about lurkers than robz is the one right now. He hasn't posted for the longest and many of his posts haven't had much content. Most of what he has contributed has been theory talk.

He is in a lot of games right now.  I feel like robz would know better than to lurk also.

[liopoil]

sudgy: what would you like me to comment on?

Mainly saying your thoughts on things, or maybe new ideas.  You haven't said many things that have made me think about it too much.

If you wanna talk about lurkers than robz is the one right now. He hasn't posted for the longest and many of his posts haven't had much content. Most of what he has contributed has been theory talk.

He is in a lot of games right now.  I feel like robz would know better than to lurk also.

Well he is lurking... I am in one other game as well.

My thoughts on things? That's not particularly specific...

[Kooshie]

it's how she plays efhw.

sudgy: lots of analysis is great, but currently there really isn't much to go off of.

Vote Count 1.5:

Kooshie (2): mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (1): mail-mi
raerae (2): EFHW, sudgy

Not Voting (4): Kooshie, liopoil, raerae, Robz888

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

kooshie voted robz since then. FoS people who have strong reads. seriously, 3 people at L-3?

Okay, I think I understand why you would be suspicious of people with strong reads, in a way.  But like others have probably said before me, analysis and strong reads make the interesting, and give us all something to think about.  As long as don't go to such extreme measures that we vote on someone because of a single word they said(okay, maybe I exaggerated a bit), strong reads can't be so bad.

[sudgy]

(sorry, what's L-3?)

[liopoil]

L stands for lynch. L-x means that the person is x votes away from being lynched. In this game, since there are 9 people, it takes five to lynch, so being at L-3 means that you have two votes on you

[mcmcsalot]

The post count is off. Kooshie has 13 posts, not 21

Thanks for this, I realize I counted wrong, keeping track without the isotropic username is hard.

Yes as far as robz goes being in other games has nothing to do with his lack of posting, I will say that he hasn't posted in those games either so i'm not too worried. He does need to get here and do some scum hunting soon as well as mail-mi.

Okay so I have given my reasons for having scum reads many times, I'm going to just list my read on everyone, I would like everyone to do the same and see where we line up. Also if you have not given reasons for your reads please do so in your post.

Town read: raerae
slight town: Jimm(early posts rang town to me, admittedly I am terrible at reading Jimm, I look to raerae and robz for a stronger read here)
slight scum: liopoil, sudgy(continued posting keeps him out of full scum read)
scum read: efhw, kooshie(corrected post count puts her back in this category)

mail-me and robz continue to have lurker status and I will wait to see what they have to say.

[Kooshie]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Robz is on v/la?  is that why he's not posting?

The post count is off. Kooshie has 13 posts, not 21

Thanks for this, I realize I counted wrong, keeping track without the isotropic username is hard.

Yes as far as robz goes being in other games has nothing to do with his lack of posting, I will say that he hasn't posted in those games either so i'm not too worried. He does need to get here and do some scum hunting soon as well as mail-mi.

Okay so I have given my reasons for having scum reads many times, I'm going to just list my read on everyone, I would like everyone to do the same and see where we line up. Also if you have not given reasons for your reads please do so in your post.

Town read: raerae
slight town: Jimm(early posts rang town to me, admittedly I am terrible at reading Jimm, I look to raerae and robz for a stronger read here)
slight scum: liopoil, sudgy(continued posting keeps him out of full scum read)
scum read: efhw, kooshie(corrected post count puts her back in this category)

mail-me and robz continue to have lurker status and I will wait to see what they have to say.

So... Robz hasn't been posting in other games?  Unvote because if this is true, like raerae said, he's on v/la, and therefore probably not meaning to lurk.

[raerae]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Robz is on v/la?  is that why he's not posting?

I posted this Friday while he was still actively posting in DS9 and some other places on the forum. 

[raerae]

Also, newbies, here's the link to the v/la thread.  Handy to post in there if you're going to be gone for an extended period of time.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.0

[Kooshie]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Robz is on v/la?  is that why he's not posting?

I posted this Friday while he was still actively posting in DS9 and some other places on the forum.

okay... but is he v/la? 

[raerae]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Robz is on v/la?  is that why he's not posting?

I posted this Friday while he was still actively posting in DS9 and some other places on the forum.

okay... but is he v/la?

That's the rumor.

I'm going to Philadelphia this weekend. I will have limited access until Sunday evening.

[liopoil]

I'm going to Philadelphia this weekend. I will have limited access until Sunday evening.

from the V/LA thread.

[liopoil]

oh. raerae beat me to it.

[Kooshie]

Here are my indefinite reads:

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)
Slight Town: mcmc, sudgy(I'm not quite sure what to think about them yet)
Slight Slight Town: raerae(I don't have any real evidence that she's scum, but she doesn't exactly have a super clean slate, either)
Slight Scum: liopoil, Robz(even if he is on v/la, his posts beforehand weren't full of information)
Scum: mail-mi(for hardly posting, and when he did, it barely contained much information)

So, as you can see, mail-mi is the scummiest to me.  He hasn't posted much, and the content isn't that plentiful(basically what I said in parentheses on the list itself).  Vote: mail-mi

[raerae]

Reads, not as helpful as I was hoping, time to do some reading.

EFHW - Sounds like our personalities are going to clash until she figures out I'm just sassy and not actually upset at anything, seems like she's reasonably thinking things through though, I look forward to reading more from her

Jimmmmm - Null, his post count is almost as high as mine but I don't remember anything in particular he's discussed, will have to reread

Kooshie - seems a little shady for the defensiveness, eager to please, lurking until called out, seems to be looking for other people to tell her what to have reads on, giving her a little more wiggle room for being new though, not ready to vote yet

liopoil - seems helpful with pushing things along, not real sure yet

mail-mi - needs to talk more, I don't have a read yet

mcmcsalot - trying to push the day along (in a good way), getting reads out, not being overly aggressive, seems towny

Robz888 - doesn't seem interested/invested in this game yet, was posting elsewhere on Friday but didn't post here other than one post super early in th AM, waiting to read until he posts more

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

[Kooshie]

Here are my indefinite reads:

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)
Slight Town: mcmc, sudgy(I'm not quite sure what to think about them yet)
Slight Slight Town: raerae(I don't have any real evidence that she's scum, but she doesn't exactly have a super clean slate, either)
Slight Scum: liopoil, Robz(even if he is on v/la, his posts beforehand weren't full of information)
Scum: mail-mi(for hardly posting, and when he did, it barely contained much information)

So, as you can see, mail-mi is the scummiest to me.  He hasn't posted much, and the content isn't that plentiful(basically what I said in parentheses on the list itself).  Vote: mail-mi

I forgot efhw!  I'm not sure, but Slight Town, I suppose.

[raerae]

Kooshie, what's your reason for slight scrumread on lio?

What's the difference between Robz and mail-mi?  Looks like you're dissatisfied with both their posting frequency and content but you have them at different scum levels.  Please explain.

[Kooshie]

Kooshie, what's your reason for slight scrumread on lio?

What's the difference between Robz and mail-mi?  Looks like you're dissatisfied with both their posting frequency and content but you have them at different scum levels.  Please explain.

Robz and mail-mi are at different levels because Robz is on v/la.  but, now that you mention it, he said he would be gone for the weekend, implying he would be here otherwise.  Pretend I put them on the same level(scum), and I'll think about changing my vote back to Robz: I don't want to change my vote too many times.

my slight scumread on liopoil is partly because of lack of posting(though not nearly as much as mail-mi and Robz), and partly because, he's been acting kind of shady.  I think I would have put him in the same category as you, except he seems a bit less-townish, and his formerly low posts.  I suppose I could have put him on Slight Slight Scum...

[EFHW]

sudgy: what would you like me to comment on?

Mainly saying your thoughts on things, or maybe new ideas.  You haven't said many things that have made me think about it too much.

If you wanna talk about lurkers than robz is the one right now. He hasn't posted for the longest and many of his posts haven't had much content. Most of what he has contributed has been theory talk.

He is in a lot of games right now.  I feel like robz would know better than to lurk also.

Well he is lurking... I am in one other game as well.

And you went quite a long time without posting as well ...  trying to compensate now?

[Kooshie]

The post count is off. Kooshie has 13 posts, not 21

Thanks for this, I realize I counted wrong, keeping track without the isotropic username is hard.

Yes as far as robz goes being in other games has nothing to do with his lack of posting, I will say that he hasn't posted in those games either so i'm not too worried. He does need to get here and do some scum hunting soon as well as mail-mi.

Okay so I have given my reasons for having scum reads many times, I'm going to just list my read on everyone, I would like everyone to do the same and see where we line up. Also if you have not given reasons for your reads please do so in your post.

Town read: raerae
slight town: Jimm(early posts rang town to me, admittedly I am terrible at reading Jimm, I look to raerae and robz for a stronger read here)
slight scum: liopoil, sudgy(continued posting keeps him out of full scum read)
scum read: efhw, kooshie(corrected post count puts her back in this category)

mail-me and robz continue to have lurker status and I will wait to see what they have to say.

why am I scummier than liopoil?  if I had 13 posts, that is still 2 more than liopoil had.  we are both still posting, and yet you said only for liopoil that you were putting him at slight scum for continuing to post,  please explain.

[EFHW]

Ok, I'll try to sum my current impressions:

raerae:  I'm told her reactions to being voted on were completely characteristic and she has been very much town-read since, so I'm withholding judgement on those early posts and saying she's probably town.

Robz888:  It occurs to me that he is overcommitted to games and trying to get himself lynched, or doesn't care if he is lynched.  Too bad he insisted on joining, yuma or eevee might have participated more.

mail-mi:  Has been slow to engage in the game, but doesn't seem scummy.  Seems like he doesn't sign on very often.

sudgy:  Very eager to please, has twice changed his vote to be the same as mine.  While he's new to online Mafia, has a lot of irl experience, so I don't think the "newbie" excuse applies.

Kooshie:  Kind of wishy-washy in her posts.  Having fun, I think.  Seems like newbie stuff to me.

Jimmmmm:  Town or very good at pretending to be town!

Liopoil:  FoS on him.  He's been active in another game while neglecting ours.  Maybe busy plotting with whoever his partner is?

mcmcsalot:  Been kind of hostile towards me, each time with logical flaws.  Like he's picking an obvious (LOL) townie to target, if you ask me!  My scummiest read.

[EFHW]

Clarification -- I was inaccurate when I said Robz had been more lurky than Kooshie, if lurky means more posts.  I looked back and in fact I voted for him because he hadn't voted yet.  A different kind of lurking - being there but standing back. AND, in fact that was mostly an RVS vote, of both kinds, trying to get a reaction. 

So, I'll reduce my scum read on mcmc, since I was misleading in the answer I gave back then.

[liopoil]

Okay, I re-read everything kooshie has said, and here's what I've found:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

This is what got her under suspicion in the first place: being too eager to please. And then in her next post there was this:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

...doing whatever people want. Then she stopped posting for a while, until people started scrutinizing her. When asked to be heard from she said:

I'd like to hear from Kooshie. Where's that krazy kat?

kat...?

which doesn't exactly address not being heard from. Later she apologizes for lurking but finished the post with:

being lurky is just my strategy right now.

...Lurking is almost never pro-town. It's not necessarily pro-scum either: but is just in general a bad idea.

When asked about a robz-raerae scumteam:

Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 

I'm not sure.  they haven't exactly been acting like they're both scum, but neither of them are very town read to me.  I think that it is very plausible, but, then again, I don't feel like we have quite enough to go on.  Or, at least, I feel I don't.

States a null read, not going either way and basically saying that they haven't been scummy or towny, even though they had both said things and people had commented on what they said. Avoiding the question, but then when people vote for him she suddenly decides:

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts. Vote: Robz

buddying/jumping on a wagon/agree-ing. Now that people have taken a stance she joins them as she won't be alone in it, won't be as scrutinized for it. This seems very scummy to me.

Later she posts her reads:

Here are my indefinite reads:

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)
Slight Town: mcmc, sudgy(I'm not quite sure what to think about them yet)
Slight Slight Town: raerae(I don't have any real evidence that she's scum, but she doesn't exactly have a super clean slate, either)
Slight Scum: liopoil, Robz(even if he is on v/la, his posts beforehand weren't full of information)
Scum: mail-mi(for hardly posting, and when he did, it barely contained much information)

So, as you can see, mail-mi is the scummiest to me.  He hasn't posted much, and the content isn't that plentiful(basically what I said in parentheses on the list itself).  Vote: mail-mi

The town row is empty. She says this is because she isn't sure about anyone being town. This is fine, however, Mail-mi is in the scum row, and surely she can't be sure about him being scum can she? after all, the only thing on his case is lurking. She doesn't include herself on this list. If she is town than she would be sure about that and therefore belongs on the town row. The combination of the two makes me consider a kooshie-mail-mi scum team. It explains both her not being included and mail-mi being in the scum row. She explains every person on the list except for me. Raerae asks her about this and she responds:

Kooshie, what's your reason for slight scrumread on lio?

my slight scumread on liopoil is partly because of lack of posting(though not nearly as much as mail-mi and Robz), and partly because, he's been acting kind of shady.  I think I would have put him in the same category as you, except he seems a bit less-townish, and his formerly low posts.  I suppose I could have put him on Slight Slight Scum...

... by retracting her read by one "slight". She says I haven't been posting much, yet as of this post we have the same number of posts. I've been acting shady too apparently, but since she doesn't cite examples I don't know how to respond to that. And finally she says essentially "I would say that he's towny except he hasn't been towny"

[liopoil]

I think this is the strongest case on anyone thus far. Vote: Kooshie

[EFHW]

Can we have a vote count please?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.6:

Kooshie (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil
Robz888 (1): mail-mi
raerae (1): sudgy
EFHW (1): mcmcsalot
Mail-mi (1): kooshie

Not Voting (3): raerae, Robz888, efhw

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

This was an iPad post--please check for accuracy.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[Kooshie]

Okay, I re-read everything kooshie has said, and here's what I've found:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

This is what got her under suspicion in the first place: being too eager to please. And then in her next post there was this:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

...doing whatever people want. Then she stopped posting for a while, until people started scrutinizing her. When asked to be heard from she said:

I'd like to hear from Kooshie. Where's that krazy kat?

kat...?

which doesn't exactly address not being heard from. Later she apologizes for lurking but finished the post with:

being lurky is just my strategy right now.

...Lurking is almost never pro-town. It's not necessarily pro-scum either: but is just in general a bad idea.

When asked about a robz-raerae scumteam:

Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 

I'm not sure.  they haven't exactly been acting like they're both scum, but neither of them are very town read to me.  I think that it is very plausible, but, then again, I don't feel like we have quite enough to go on.  Or, at least, I feel I don't.

States a null read, not going either way and basically saying that they haven't been scummy or towny, even though they had both said things and people had commented on what they said. Avoiding the question, but then when people vote for him she suddenly decides:

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts. Vote: Robz

buddying/jumping on a wagon/agree-ing. Now that people have taken a stance she joins them as she won't be alone in it, won't be as scrutinized for it. This seems very scummy to me.

Later she posts her reads:

Here are my indefinite reads:

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)
Slight Town: mcmc, sudgy(I'm not quite sure what to think about them yet)
Slight Slight Town: raerae(I don't have any real evidence that she's scum, but she doesn't exactly have a super clean slate, either)
Slight Scum: liopoil, Robz(even if he is on v/la, his posts beforehand weren't full of information)
Scum: mail-mi(for hardly posting, and when he did, it barely contained much information)

So, as you can see, mail-mi is the scummiest to me.  He hasn't posted much, and the content isn't that plentiful(basically what I said in parentheses on the list itself).  Vote: mail-mi

The town row is empty. She says this is because she isn't sure about anyone being town. This is fine, however, Mail-mi is in the scum row, and surely she can't be sure about him being scum can she? after all, the only thing on his case is lurking. She doesn't include herself on this list. If she is town than she would be sure about that and therefore belongs on the town row. The combination of the two makes me consider a kooshie-mail-mi scum team. It explains both her not being included and mail-mi being in the scum row. She explains every person on the list except for me. Raerae asks her about this and she responds:

Kooshie, what's your reason for slight scrumread on lio?

my slight scumread on liopoil is partly because of lack of posting(though not nearly as much as mail-mi and Robz), and partly because, he's been acting kind of shady.  I think I would have put him in the same category as you, except he seems a bit less-townish, and his formerly low posts.  I suppose I could have put him on Slight Slight Scum...

... by retracting her read by one "slight". She says I haven't been posting much, yet as of this post we have the same number of posts. I've been acting shady too apparently, but since she doesn't cite examples I don't know how to respond to that. And finally she says essentially "I would say that he's towny except he hasn't been towny"

1. I thought that Jimm meant that he didn't want me to vote on him, so, joking, I pretended that I thought that he wanted me to take my signature away, without realizing that, in fact, it was what he wanted.
2. Raerae already addressed that lurking isn't good, and I stopped.
3. I just wanted to say I wasn't sure, but since I hadn't been posting much beforehand, when I did post, I wanted to say as much as I could.
4.When I voted Robz, I had only just realized how much he had been lurking.  But yes, I have to admit, that was pretty scummy of me.
5. a.) No one else put themselves on their list, but you attack only me for not putting myself on? b.) If I was scum, I would put myself as town.  If I was town, I would put myself as town.  So if I put myself as town, you would interpret that as scummy, since I would be assuring everyone that I was town.  But you still call that scummy!
6. a.) I put suppose for making you slight slight town, meaning, I could think about it, but no.  Not meaning, I would absolutely, no doubt about it, make liopoil slight slight town.  Which is an exaggerated version of how you interpreted it. b.) Right.  You haven't been towny.  You've been suspicious.  I don't have any evidence, but, like raerae, you don't exactly have a clean slate to me.

[mcmcsalot]

why am I scummier than liopoil?  if I had 13 posts, that is still 2 more than liopoil had.  we are both still posting, and yet you said only for liopoil that you were putting him at slight scum for continuing to post,  please explain.

This is because I found you slightly scummy even with they higher post count due to your earlier posts, I found liopoil slightly scummy due to his low post count, when you also had a low post count that makes you scummier in my mind.

[sudgy]

(I'm going to re-read everybody and say my opinion of them, this may take a while)

[sudgy]

(This will just be the order from the first post, and I'm not including me)

raerae: I used to suspect you, but now I'm seeing that's just how you are.  You have a pretty big town read from me at this point.

liopoil: I'm not quite sure about you...  At first you weren't doing much, then you suddenly have a huge post on kooshie.  I think you're in the middle for me.

mcmcsalot: I've got a pretty big town read on you.  Either you're town, or very good mafia.

EFHW: I don't see much for you as mafia, so you're also a pretty good town read.

mail-mi: he hasn't posted that much, so I don't know if that's random lurkiness or scum-lurkiness.

kooshie: Also a pretty big scum read from me, reasons shown by liopoil.

Jimmmmm: Town read from me.  I don't see anything particularly scummy about him.

Robz888: As he hasn't posted much, I don't think of much about him.  From what I have, he seems like he's town.



I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

[mcmcsalot]

(This will just be the order from the first post, and I'm not including me)

raerae: I used to suspect you, but now I'm seeing that's just how you are.  You have a pretty big town read from me at this point.

liopoil: I'm not quite sure about you...  At first you weren't doing much, then you suddenly have a huge post on kooshie.  I think you're in the middle for me.

mcmcsalot: I've got a pretty big town read on you.  Either you're town, or very good mafia.

EFHW: I don't see much for you as mafia, so you're also a pretty good town read.

mail-mi: he hasn't posted that much, so I don't know if that's random lurkiness or scum-lurkiness.

kooshie: Also a pretty big scum read from me, reasons shown by liopoil.

Jimmmmm: Town read from me.  I don't see anything particularly scummy about him.

Robz888: As he hasn't posted much, I don't think of much about him.  From what I have, he seems like he's town.



I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

Liopoil could be bussing(turning on his scum partner to gain towncred) This is proven to be effective as you have just given him town cred for it. It is rare for scum to do this so early but with the case against kooshie already(me and raerae) I wouldn't give him much town cred for it regardless of kooshies alignment.

[sudgy]

(This will just be the order from the first post, and I'm not including me)

raerae: I used to suspect you, but now I'm seeing that's just how you are.  You have a pretty big town read from me at this point.

liopoil: I'm not quite sure about you...  At first you weren't doing much, then you suddenly have a huge post on kooshie.  I think you're in the middle for me.

mcmcsalot: I've got a pretty big town read on you.  Either you're town, or very good mafia.

EFHW: I don't see much for you as mafia, so you're also a pretty good town read.

mail-mi: he hasn't posted that much, so I don't know if that's random lurkiness or scum-lurkiness.

kooshie: Also a pretty big scum read from me, reasons shown by liopoil.

Jimmmmm: Town read from me.  I don't see anything particularly scummy about him.

Robz888: As he hasn't posted much, I don't think of much about him.  From what I have, he seems like he's town.



I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

Liopoil could be bussing(turning on his scum partner to gain towncred) This is proven to be effective as you have just given him town cred for it. It is rare for scum to do this so early but with the case against kooshie already(me and raerae) I wouldn't give him much town cred for it regardless of kooshies alignment.

I thought about that, but I was also thinking about how it was early.  I'm still going to be open to them both being scum, it's just that I think it might be a bit more likely for only one of them to.  Also, I didn't think too much about kooshie being scum until liopoil made that huge post.

[liopoil]

sudgy: you say I'm in the middle, but at the bottom say that kooshie and I both seem very scummy. I'm a little confused why people have slight scumreads on me when the only thing they've said is that I lurked for a couple days... or is that enough?

Why couldn't we both be town? from your perspective that seems more likely than us both being scum I think.

From your post it seems kooshie is your biggest scumread by far. you also say raerae is a pretty big town read. Your vote is currently on raerae. May I suggest you move it to kooshie? 

[sudgy]

sudgy: you say I'm in the middle, but at the bottom say that kooshie and I both seem very scummy. I'm a little confused why people have slight scumreads on me when the only thing they've said is that I lurked for a couple days... or is that enough?

Why couldn't we both be town? from your perspective that seems more likely than us both being scum I think.

The reason you were in the middle is because I wasn't sure if you or kooshie is the mafia.  I feel like kooshie is a little bit higher, so that's why I said he was higher earlier.

From your post it seems kooshie is your biggest scumread by far. you also say raerae is a pretty big town read. Your vote is currently on raerae. May I suggest you move it to kooshie? 

Oops, I was going to do that.
Vote: kooshie

[sudgy]

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

[EFHW]

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

[mcmcsalot]

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

[EFHW]

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

What makes a D1 lynch different? 

I really don't read Kooshie as scummy, so Liopoil's case against her seems a tad trumped up to me. 

I don't know if Liopoil is scummy, I just think he's more scummy than Kooshie.  He didn't explain his 2-day absence -- during which time he was active on another game, so he wasn't v/la.  And there's the weak case (imo) against Kooshie.  Not a lot, but more reason to suspect than the others. 

[raerae]

I don't know, guys. I'm about ready to seriously look at Robz. He posted here around 2am Friday morning the not for the rest of the day though he was active in other games. He came back today, posted in other threads, ignored this one...again. We're really only 8 pages into the game and shouldn't really be that hard to throw a few thoughts down. I really had high hopes for Robz to guide and give advice this game but he's disappointed so far.  As hard as he fought to get in and stay in, it seems he'd be more invested.

Sorry but Vote: Robz

[EFHW]

I have a question -- Do people with roles (not vanilla) sometimes come across as scummy because they also have something they are hiding?

[EFHW]

@raerae -- I agree.  Not sure if it makes him Mafia, but it is disappointing.  Are you suggesting lynching him because he's not participating or because you think that points to him being scummy?  I don't know him, but maybe he's town and finds that boring? (That's not a good reason not to play, of course.)

[Jimmmmm]

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)

Care to explain what these not-so-town moments are? This sounds like a way to try to put suspicion on everyone except yourself.

[Robz888]

I don't know, guys. I'm about ready to seriously look at Robz. He posted here around 2am Friday morning the not for the rest of the day though he was active in other games. He came back today, posted in other threads, ignored this one...again. We're really only 8 pages into the game and shouldn't really be that hard to throw a few thoughts down. I really had high hopes for Robz to guide and give advice this game but he's disappointed so far.  As hard as he fought to get in and stay in, it seems he'd be more invested.

Sorry but Vote: Robz

Sorry, as I noted in the "away" thread, I was unavailable this weekend. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3621.msg182926#msg182926

I'm back now.

[Robz888]

I have a question -- Do people with roles (not vanilla) sometimes come across as scummy because they also have something they are hiding?

Yes.

[Robz888]

@raerae -- I agree.  Not sure if it makes him Mafia, but it is disappointing.  Are you suggesting lynching him because he's not participating or because you think that points to him being scummy?  I don't know him, but maybe he's town and finds that boring? (That's not a good reason not to play, of course.)

I was gone this weekend. Also, weekends are usually low activity times. Those this game seems to be in exception.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

I'm a little wary of this. If sudgy is scum, then this seems a great way to force two mislynches if we lynch one, they flip Town, then we lynch the other because one of them had to be scum.

[raerae]

@raerae -- I agree.  Not sure if it makes him Mafia, but it is disappointing.  Are you suggesting lynching him because he's not participating or because you think that points to him being scummy?  I don't know him, but maybe he's town and finds that boring? (That's not a good reason not to play, of course.)

I'm not convinced he's scum (he just hasn't said enough yet!) so this was more of 'Hey, I know you've been gone but you're back now and you were around but not posting on this day and I'd really like you to say something because you are experienced and the new newbies could benefit from thay and maybe you have better ideas for how to move this along than we do so please get your booty in here and say stuff' kind of vote.  It is documented elsewhere that he prefers playing scum (see Buffy) but he's smart enough to know his meta so I don't think we can rely on that to determine his alignment. Additionally, I think Robz reads scummy to people who haven't played with him (totallly guilty).

[Robz888]

I think I read scummy to people who have played with me.

[EFHW]

I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

I'm a little wary of this. If sudgy is scum, then this seems a great way to force two mislynches if we lynch one, they flip Town, then we lynch the other because one of them had to be scum.

Interesting ...

[mail-mi]

Sorry everyone, it's Sunday so I can't get on very much. From reading all of the posts, i can see that Robz was on v/la so Unvote.

I really don't know what to think, when I play in real life we usually play a whole Night before a whole Day so we at least have something to go off of. Since its RVS, I don't really have anything to say.

[raerae]

I think I read scummy to people who have played with me.

I could speak to that in this game except you haven't given much to read.  *hint hint hint*

[raerae]

Sorry everyone, it's Sunday so I can't get on very much. From reading all of the posts, i can see that Robz was on v/la so Unvote.

I really don't know what to think, when I play in real life we usually play a whole Night before a whole Day so we at least have something to go off of. Since its RVS, I don't really have anything to say.

We're clearly out of RVS and there is plenty to read and give thoughts on.

[Kooshie]

Okay, I'm going to pretend not to be myself right now, nor anyone in particular.  If...

liopoil=town kooshie=town then liopoil is scum hunting, and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=town kooshie=scum then liopoil is very good at scum hunting, and/or kooshie is very bad at being scum

liopoil=scum kooshie=town then liopoil took a person pretty much everyone was suspicious of at one point, took half of their posts, and either made or found suspicious things, and explained them, bringing doubt and accusation to everyone's minds(mostly), and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=scum  kooshie=scum then either liopoil is taking a huge risk in giving all these reasons to why kooshie is scum, or they have a(either very bad or very complicated)plan

This was all from the perspective of a vanilla town just trying to figure everything out.

[liopoil]

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

What makes a D1 lynch different? 

I really don't read Kooshie as scummy, so Liopoil's case against her seems a tad trumped up to me. 

I don't know if Liopoil is scummy, I just think he's more scummy than Kooshie.  He didn't explain his 2-day absence -- during which time he was active on another game, so he wasn't v/la.  And there's the weak case (imo) against Kooshie.  Not a lot, but more reason to suspect than the others.

I am in two games at once. At that point in time people were posting very fluffy cases on people. There really wasn't much to go off of or comment on. Meanwhile in DS9 I was at risk of being lynched as we neared the deadline of D2 where there was lots of evidence on lots of people to go off of. I think I was posting in the right place. As of now I am in the middle of the pack in terms of post count, yet you pick on me. Any particular reason why the case against kooshie is weak? I quoted a gazillion of her posts and showed how they could be scummy. most all of the other long posts are just a little note on each player, which isn't terribly helpful.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, I'm going to pretend not to be myself right now, nor anyone in particular.  If...

liopoil=town kooshie=town then liopoil is scum hunting, and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=town kooshie=scum then liopoil is very good at scum hunting, and/or kooshie is very bad at being scum

liopoil=scum kooshie=town then liopoil took a person pretty much everyone was suspicious of at one point, took half of their posts, and either made or found suspicious things, and explained them, bringing doubt and accusation to everyone's minds(mostly), and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=scum  kooshie=scum then either liopoil is taking a huge risk in giving all these reasons to why kooshie is scum, or they have a(either very bad or very complicated)plan

This was all from the perspective of a vanilla town just trying to figure everything out.

So basically your defense is, you're probably not both scum, and if sudgy's Town, what are the chances he'd find scum this early?

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, I'm going to pretend not to be myself right now, nor anyone in particular.  If...

liopoil=town kooshie=town then liopoil is scum hunting, and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=town kooshie=scum then liopoil is very good at scum hunting, and/or kooshie is very bad at being scum

liopoil=scum kooshie=town then liopoil took a person pretty much everyone was suspicious of at one point, took half of their posts, and either made or found suspicious things, and explained them, bringing doubt and accusation to everyone's minds(mostly), and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=scum  kooshie=scum then either liopoil is taking a huge risk in giving all these reasons to why kooshie is scum, or they have a(either very bad or very complicated)plan

This was all from the perspective of a vanilla town just trying to figure everything out.

So basically your defense is, you're probably not both scum, and if sudgyliopoil's Town, what are the chances he'd find scum this early?

FTFM

[mcmcsalot]

vote: Kooshie sorry but your defense is essentially, that your bad at being town.

[Kooshie]

Okay, I'm going to pretend not to be myself right now, nor anyone in particular.  If...

liopoil=town kooshie=town then liopoil is scum hunting, and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=town kooshie=scum then liopoil is very good at scum hunting, and/or kooshie is very bad at being scum

liopoil=scum kooshie=town then liopoil took a person pretty much everyone was suspicious of at one point, took half of their posts, and either made or found suspicious things, and explained them, bringing doubt and accusation to everyone's minds(mostly), and kooshie just isn't good at being town, or, as a newbie, doesn't know how to act, or both

liopoil=scum  kooshie=scum then either liopoil is taking a huge risk in giving all these reasons to why kooshie is scum, or they have a(either very bad or very complicated)plan

This was all from the perspective of a vanilla town just trying to figure everything out.

So basically your defense is, you're probably not both scum, and if sudgyliopoil's Town, what are the chances he'd find scum this early?

FTFM

No.  That is not what I am saying.  This wasn't supposed to be in my defense when I started it... but it worked out that way, sort of?  I'm just giving everyone to think about it.  Here's another thing kind of like that, maybe it will help?
If...
kooshie is scum, she made that to put suspicoin on liopoil, and/or to take suspicion away from herself
kooshie is town, she made that to make everything clearer to herself, to try and figure out if liopoil was scum, and hopefully for others(the making everything clearer).  Not quite in her defense, but still hoping it might work out that way

[Kooshie]

can we have a vote count?  I think I've just been lynched

[Kooshie]

can we have a vote count?  I think I've just been lynched

never mind!  I don't think I have

[Kooshie]

can we have a vote count?  I think I've just been lynched

never mind!  I don't think I have

but still, a vote count.

[EFHW]

Okay, I re-read everything kooshie has said, and here's what I've found:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

This is what got her under suspicion in the first place: being too eager to please. And then in her next post there was this:

Screw that. Vote: Kooshie for the terrible signature. RVS is fun!

Vote: Jimmmmm for not liking my signature.  But I got rid of it anyway.

No, I didn't want you to do that! Just wanted something to tease you about.

okay I'll put something back in my signature

...doing whatever people want. Then she stopped posting for a while, until people started scrutinizing her. When asked to be heard from she said:

I'd like to hear from Kooshie. Where's that krazy kat?

kat...?

which doesn't exactly address not being heard from. Later she apologizes for lurking but finished the post with:

being lurky is just my strategy right now.

...Lurking is almost never pro-town. It's not necessarily pro-scum either: but is just in general a bad idea.

When asked about a robz-raerae scumteam:

Kooshie  What do you think about the robz/raerae speculation? 

I'm not sure.  they haven't exactly been acting like they're both scum, but neither of them are very town read to me.  I think that it is very plausible, but, then again, I don't feel like we have quite enough to go on.  Or, at least, I feel I don't.

States a null read, not going either way and basically saying that they haven't been scummy or towny, even though they had both said things and people had commented on what they said. Avoiding the question, but then when people vote for him she suddenly decides:

I still vote Robz because I haven't seen him post since I voted on him.

true.  very true.  he did say he didn't have any real suspicions, but I think he could still post his thoughts. Vote: Robz

buddying/jumping on a wagon/agree-ing. Now that people have taken a stance she joins them as she won't be alone in it, won't be as scrutinized for it. This seems very scummy to me.

Later she posts her reads:

Here are my indefinite reads:

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)
Slight Town: mcmc, sudgy(I'm not quite sure what to think about them yet)
Slight Slight Town: raerae(I don't have any real evidence that she's scum, but she doesn't exactly have a super clean slate, either)
Slight Scum: liopoil, Robz(even if he is on v/la, his posts beforehand weren't full of information)
Scum: mail-mi(for hardly posting, and when he did, it barely contained much information)

So, as you can see, mail-mi is the scummiest to me.  He hasn't posted much, and the content isn't that plentiful(basically what I said in parentheses on the list itself).  Vote: mail-mi

The town row is empty. She says this is because she isn't sure about anyone being town. This is fine, however, Mail-mi is in the scum row, and surely she can't be sure about him being scum can she? after all, the only thing on his case is lurking. She doesn't include herself on this list. If she is town than she would be sure about that and therefore belongs on the town row. The combination of the two makes me consider a kooshie-mail-mi scum team. It explains both her not being included and mail-mi being in the scum row. She explains every person on the list except for me. Raerae asks her about this and she responds:

Kooshie, what's your reason for slight scrumread on lio?

my slight scumread on liopoil is partly because of lack of posting(though not nearly as much as mail-mi and Robz), and partly because, he's been acting kind of shady.  I think I would have put him in the same category as you, except he seems a bit less-townish, and his formerly low posts.  I suppose I could have put him on Slight Slight Scum...

... by retracting her read by one "slight". She says I haven't been posting much, yet as of this post we have the same number of posts. I've been acting shady too apparently, but since she doesn't cite examples I don't know how to respond to that. And finally she says essentially "I would say that he's towny except he hasn't been towny"

Ok, here goes.  Consider this in addition to her own responses, I won't repeat her points.
1.  The Jimmmmm vote was in response to her vote on him, and both were during the time when people were voting for each other on any pretext to break the ice (something I'm starting to think is a very bad idea, since people seem to forget that later).
2.  Her kat? response was immediately followed by a longer response explaining her absence on Thurs and likely future absences on Thursdays in general, so calling it a non-response is taking it out of context and making more of it than there is.
3.  Saying you have the same number of posts is misleading because you were absent 2 days and had just made a bunch of posts in a row.
4.  Pointing out her inconsistencies in categorizing town, not town, slight slight scum etc. seems like taking something not very relevant to scumminess and trying to make it seem relevant.
5.  I read her vagueness, eagerness to please and wishy-washy conclusions as due to being newbie, and jumping in and trying things out even though she's not sure how to do it.  It's hard to find any thread of deception in any of her posts. 

These are the reasons I think your case against her is trumped up and possibly a diversion to get us to lynch a townie.

I didn't have time to read posts made while I was typing -- will respond later if tis' needed.

[Kooshie]

Town: (everyone's had their not-so-town moments in this game, so, really, I'm not certain about anybody not being scum)

Care to explain what these not-so-town moments are? This sounds like a way to try to put suspicion on everyone except yourself.

When I say not-so-town moments, I don't mean scummy moments.  Just in case you were thinking that.  so, for example...
efhw hasn't been voting for me, and has been giving many reasons, which i appreciate.  However, why would a townie do this?  better lynch than no lynch, right?  people will also start think that efhw is on a scum team with me, and they might lynch her.  but if efhw is scum, she wouldn't disagree with so many people, for the same reason.  If she is on a scum team with me, she might disagree to keep me alive, but of course, they would think of us as a scum team, and they lynch me and see that I'm scum, they would lynch her and then the town would win.  So it's not-so-town, but not all that scummy, either.
I'll do others separately(their not-so-town moments).

[liopoil]

Ok, here goes.  Consider this in addition to her own responses, I won't repeat her points.
1.  The Jimmmmm vote was in response to her vote on him, and both were during the time when people were voting for each other on any pretext to break the ice (something I'm starting to think is a very bad idea, since people seem to forget that later).
2.  Her kat? response was immediately followed by a longer response explaining her absence on Thurs and likely future absences on Thursdays in general, so calling it a non-response is taking it out of context and making more of it than there is.
3.  Saying you have the same number of posts is misleading because you were absent 2 days and had just made a bunch of posts in a row.
4.  Pointing out her inconsistencies in categorizing town, not town, slight slight scum etc. seems like taking something not very relevant to scumminess and trying to make it seem relevant.
5.  I read her vagueness, eagerness to please and wishy-washy conclusions as due to being newbie, and jumping in and trying things out even though she's not sure how to do it.  It's hard to find any thread of deception in any of her posts. 

These are the reasons I think your case against her is trumped up and possibly a diversion to get us to lynch a townie.

I didn't have time to read posts made while I was typing -- will respond later if tis' needed.

1. the vote was not the issue, it was switching her signature all the time.
2. I agree that she should not be persecuted for being absent on Thursday. However, raerae was asking to hear from kooshie, meaning reads and such. Giving an excuse for being gone, and then still not contributing, and even defending not contributing is scummy.
3. ...And she was gone on Thursday. Why should it matter when the posts were made in this case?
4. Point has some merit. Inconsistancies are still in general scummy though.
5. Those three things are generally considered to be more often scummy than towny. Most other people won't read those things the way you do.

[EFHW]

At this point, while I am defending Kooshie, I'm even more accusing Liopoil.  Inflating the case against Kooshie is suspicious behavior, is it not?

[EFHW]

What is FTFM?

[Jimmmmm]

What is FTFM?

Fixed That For Me (more often you'll see FTFY).

[Jimmmmm]

So I think Kooshie's at L-1 now. Because of that and that I'm not ready to lynch her just yet I'm going to Unvote for now pending a re-read or two.

[Jorbles]

"The vote count you asked for, good sirs and madams."

Vote Count 1.7:

Kooshie (3): liopoil, sudgy, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW

Not Voting (3): Robz888, mail-mi, Jimmmmm

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[sudgy]

If we do lynch kooshie and she is scum, I would think EFHW is the other mafia...

[liopoil]

Just re-read Jimmmmm. One thing I noticed was that he hasn't really posted any reads other than a null read at the beginning on raerae and robz. I know you're re-reading kooshie but could you give some basic reads on a few of us?

[EFHW]

I'm noticing that posts just 2 or 3 lines long take up a lot less room without avatar pictures.  Would you guys consider not using an avatar to improve readability?

[EFHW]

I just learned that you can choose not to see avatars or signatures by modifying your profile, so nvm. 

[Robz888]

I'm noticing that posts just 2 or 3 lines long take up a lot less room without avatar pictures.  Would you guys consider not using an avatar to improve readability?

In my experience, avatars greatly improve readability. It's much easier to identify who is saying what, which is already hard enough here, since we don't know each other as well in this game.

[EFHW]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

I think you know...

This is the third post of the game (not counting jorbles). Seems a tad aggressive...

Another example of diverting attention towards Kooshie and reading things into her posts.  How is "I think you know ...." more aggressive than "which one of you did it" (the first post of the game)?  Both are funny, not scummy.

[Kooshie]

yes, its that that worries me. Normally you only worry people will think I'm mafia if your mafia.

This may be nothing, but I saw this early-ish post, and I thought about "Normally you only worry people will think I'm mafia if your mafia." My first thought, I'm?  My second thought, your?  I will address to my second thought first.  This is my pet peeve, the 'your' I believe it would actually be you're, not your.
My first thought; did you mean you're mafia instead of I'm mafia?  This was a typo, yes...  But typos are sometimes made because you were thinking that word, so you typed that word.  This really isn't much, but it seems that you were thinking about(maybe)how you were mafia when you typed this. 

I would say that this is mcmc's not-so-town moment.  Why would a townie be even remotely thinking about how they are(of course they aren't, but you get the idea) mafia?  But if mcmc was scum, like raerae said some time ago, one of the bad things about being scum is you would be checking over all of your posts before posting.  So wouldn't mcmc look this over and see the grammatical errors(plural because of the your)?

[liopoil]

I think you misread the post. He wasn't reffering to himself. He was saying something similar to what you said. He meant, "only mafia worry about people thinking that they're mafia". He was talking about sudgy actually.

[mcmcsalot]

You are correct in that this is a grammatical error, it is supposed to say "you(kooshie) only worry people will think I'm(kooshie) mafia if you(kooshie) in fact are mafia. So the first part is stated from my perspective you only think this when, and the second part is what I imagine you would think.

[mcmcsalot]

and yes I was in fact referring to sudgy ugh I'm so sorry I keep assuming the people responding are the people the post was about.

[Kooshie]

You are correct in that this is a grammatical error, it is supposed to say "you(kooshie) only worry people will think I'm(kooshie) mafia if you(kooshie) in fact are mafia. So the first part is stated from my perspective you only think this when, and the second part is what I imagine you would think.

Okay, thanks, I understand.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.8:

Kooshie (3): liopoil, sudgy, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW

Not Voting (3): Robz888, mail-mi, Jimmmmm

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[mail-mi]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

[sudgy]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

[mail-mi]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

Ah, well, in my games we usually have a lot of different powers and blah blah blah, and this is very different, so I Unvote my no lynch.

[EFHW]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

What's the odd number of people issue?

[EFHW]

We still haven't heard any assessments from Robz or mail-mi. 

[Kooshie]

We still haven't heard any assessments from Robz or mail-mi.

True, true, true.  I don't think mail-mi has really been reading everything everyone has said, and he hasn't explained his silence.  Robz was on v/la, at least, and I suppose he would be busy on his other games, but he should really say more. 

[mcmcsalot]

while I have a few strong scum reads I would be okay with lynching mail-me for the lurking and providing no reads upon return.

vote: mail-me

[mail-mi]

True, true, true.  I don't think mail-mi has really been reading everything everyone has said, and he hasn't explained his silence.  Robz was on v/la, at least, and I suppose he would be busy on his other games, but he should really say more. 

I'm in school, and I get a lot of homework sometimes, so I can't get on very often. But when I can get on, I do, and I try to read everybody's posts. But, since I have to read about 2 pages when I get on, I don't go in depth. There's my explanation.

[raerae]

We still haven't heard any assessments from Robz or mail-mi.

I'm game for LALL and would prefer a vet lynch over a newbie.  Robz got called out, came on and said "I told you I wasn't going to be here!" then left and continued to post in other places.  (Yes, I'm a creepy cyber stalker.)  Came back for one SUPER fluff post about avatars.  Also, Robz is always in a million games so I don't see that as an excuse for him.

[mcmcsalot]

We still haven't heard any assessments from Robz or mail-mi.

I'm game for LALL and would prefer a vet lynch over a newbie.  Robz got called out, came on and said "I told you I wasn't going to be here!" then left and continued to post in other places.  (Yes, I'm a creepy cyber stalker.)  Came back for one SUPER fluff post about avatars.  Also, Robz is always in a million games so I don't see that as an excuse for him.

Last game I lynched robz for lurking when I had a bit of a town read on him and he turned town, in fact I lynched him as town without putting up a fight twice, he hasn't done anything scummy yet I do not want to lynch robz today.

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah, we need Robz to get in here and start contributing. But I do think scum Robz would be more active. Unless he's trying to indoctrinate us in the ways of LaLL.

[sudgy]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

What's the odd number of people issue?

Let's say we have a no lynch.  There are 9 players, and during the night one of them will (usually) be killed.  So there's eight alive after that, and we need five people to lynch.  All we've done is decreased the number of town.  We could go on like this, but then as there's less people that number will get in the way more.  If there's 6 people, there's 4 needed to lynch, and if there's still two mafia everybody else still has to agree on the vote (yeah, this will happen with 5 people with two mafia, but you get the idea).  And if we no lynch again to get the numbers right we've just lost a second townie.

Basically, it's a lot harder to pull off a vote and messes with how the whole game works (at least for me).

[Robz888]

We don't want to no lynch; that's silly.

I need to re-read the day so far and form some reads. I don't have any right now. I'll try to do that soon. Apologies, I've been very busy lately.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, so some reads:

First Kooshie. Her early defensiveness and eagerness to please read a bit scummy to me, but her slightly awkward defense read a little more like Newbie Town than Newbie scum. I think overall that leaves her on a very slight scum read.

Next sudgy. I think sudgy has become my biggest scumread, for a few reasons:

He's said a lot and given a lot of reads without actually giving many reasons or cases. That is, he seems to be saying a lot without saying much, and the reasons he has given haven't been that substantial. For example, raerae asking questions, raerae unvoting. Granted, a lot of that happened in semi-RVS, but the reasons were carried out of RVS. Then in his #435, he gives a view on everyone, and is giving "pretty big" reads, but very few reasons, or just other people's reasons. He's currently voting Kooshie without giving any of his own reasons, just talking about liopoil's "evidence", which is consistent with classic scum sheeping.

On that note, I still think this was scummy:

I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

I just think this certainty is more likely to benefit scum sudgy than it is Town sudgy, and it also comes after sudgy called EFHW out for being certain of something:

Something I noticed, is that EFHW seemed awfully certain that raerae is mafia...  Why is that?

Also note that EFHW's "certainty" of raerae's scumminess was based on the same reason that sudgy said raerae was scummy.

So it seems like if sudgy is scum, then he is following liopoil into the Kooshie lynch with the aim of blaming lio for it tomorrow and pushing for the lio lynch. I think this is enough for me to Vote: sudgy and see what people think.

[EFHW]

Sudgy is my second highest scum-read.

[EFHW]

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

What's the odd number of people issue?

Let's say we have a no lynch.  There are 9 players, and during the night one of them will (usually) be killed.  So there's eight alive after that, and we need five people to lynch.  All we've done is decreased the number of town.  We could go on like this, but then as there's less people that number will get in the way more.  If there's 6 people, there's 4 needed to lynch, and if there's still two mafia everybody else still has to agree on the vote (yeah, this will happen with 5 people with two mafia, but you get the idea).  And if we no lynch again to get the numbers right we've just lost a second townie.

Basically, it's a lot harder to pull off a vote and messes with how the whole game works (at least for me).

Sorry, Sudgy, but I don't really follow what you're trying to say.

[mcmcsalot]

So I was just going to change my vote to sudgy, I have made it clear my top three scum reads are efhw, sudgy, and koshie. Then I realized I voted for mail-me for lurking. This is every player in the game I haven't played with, I'm worried I have tunneled the new players and I want to go back and reread the other players, I suggest the rest of the veterans do the same.

While I stand by my previously mentioned scum reads and would support a sudgy lynch I'm not ready to cast my vote till I make a reread of the vets.

[EFHW]

while I have a few strong scum reads I would be okay with lynching mail-me for the lurking and providing no reads upon return.

vote: mail-mi FTFY   

If you have strong scum reads, why would you prefer to lynch someone just for lurking?

[EFHW]

@mcmc I see our posts crossed in the mail (so to speak!)

[mcmcsalot]

Reads, not as helpful as I was hoping, time to do some reading.

EFHW - Sounds like our personalities are going to clash until she figures out I'm just sassy and not actually upset at anything, seems like she's reasonably thinking things through though, I look forward to reading more from her

Jimmmmm - Null, his post count is almost as high as mine but I don't remember anything in particular he's discussed, will have to reread

Kooshie - seems a little shady for the defensiveness, eager to please, lurking until called out, seems to be looking for other people to tell her what to have reads on, giving her a little more wiggle room for being new though, not ready to vote yet

liopoil - seems helpful with pushing things along, not real sure yet

mail-mi - needs to talk more, I don't have a read yet

mcmcsalot - trying to push the day along (in a good way), getting reads out, not being overly aggressive, seems towny

Robz888 - doesn't seem interested/invested in this game yet, was posting elsewhere on Friday but didn't post here other than one post super early in th AM, waiting to read until he posts more

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

So I was doing my reread of raerae, she has pushed hard against lurkers this whole game infact after this post all she has commented on is robz lurking. While I agree with robz needing to post more you also need to post more. In this your big post with reads you say this isn't going to be helpful and then you give null reads on just about everyone. You mention you need to read more on people, this sounds to me like potential scum pushing for lurkers and not giving any real reads.

[EFHW]

.... Then I realized I voted for mail-me for lurking. This is every player in the game I haven't played with, I'm worried I have tunneled the new players ...

That is so interesting.  When you don't know people, it's easier to imagine them in negative ways.

[mcmcsalot]

while I have a few strong scum reads I would be okay with lynching mail-me for the lurking and providing no reads upon return.

vote: mail-mi FTFY   

If you have strong scum reads, why would you prefer to lynch someone just for lurking?

I can explain this, this is sort of similar to the people claiming no lynch. No lynch is definitely not what we want but if it is too hard to get a good case for scum on D1 lynching a major lurkers is always a good alternative. I was simply saying that I felt confident I'm my reads but if a consensus could not be reached I would support lynching a lurker as a good D1 alternative, worst case scenario mislynching a lurker saves a potentially more active town member.

[Jimmmmm]

So I was just going to change my vote to sudgy, I have made it clear my top three scum reads are efhw, sudgy, and koshie. Then I realized I voted for mail-me for lurking. This is every player in the game I haven't played with, I'm worried I have tunneled the new players and I want to go back and reread the other players, I suggest the rest of the veterans do the same.

While I stand by my previously mentioned scum reads and would support a sudgy lynch I'm not ready to cast my vote till I make a reread of the vets.

I'm kind of in the same boat, nothing has really jumped out at me as scummy from you, raerae or Robz (except the obvious lurking).

[mcmcsalot]

Jimm, I would suggest a simple reread of us all, upon doing so I found hard evidence to support or dissuade most of my reads. One thing that I want to point out and correct me if I'm wrong, Jimm lives in Australia and has quite a different time zone from us. This explains why he posts during odd times and stays out of the often heated evening conversation. If anyone else lives in a time zone that isn't forum time est it would be good to let us know.

Now as for my reread, I gave my conclusion on raerae, Jimm I have a very strong town read on you, you have agreed with me in much but you have not sheeped me, you have provided reads/reasons above and beyond the ones already given for people.

Robz, he has done none of the things of the things I look for scum robz to do and has done a few things I look for town robz to do, I'm not going to say these things because I don't want robz to know what they are.

[Jimmmmm]

One thing that I want to point out and correct me if I'm wrong, Jimm lives in Australia and has quite a different time zone from us. This explains why he posts during odd times and stays out of the often heated evening conversation.

This is correct, although I sometimes work nights, which is why I'm here now.

[mcmcsalot]

My reread of liopoil also provided evidence similar to what I was feeling, I save a slight town read on him, he has done a good job of posting reads and his summary of the koshie case was helpful, my reason he is not as strong a town read as Jimm is because his reads do seem more like sheeping than original ideas.

I would say my current reads lie here:
Scum: sudgy, koshie, efhw
Slight scum: raerae, mail-mi(slight scum due to responses after lurking not for lurking)
Slight town: robz, liopoil
Town: Jimm
Reads go left to right most scum to least

So now I am confident with vote: sudgy

[EFHW]

Here is my list:

Scum: Liopoil, then Sudgy

Town: (in increasing order of towniness, but really all very close together)

mail-mi, mcmcsalot, raerae, Robz, Jimmmmmm, Kooshie, EFHW (of course!)

[raerae]

I have real life stuff until late this evening, I'm in CST so it'l be semi-late for the forums, and I look forward to addressing mcmc's analysis of my reads post and the possible sudgy lynch. I aalso just realized I never gave my jimmmmm reread. That'll be updated and posted as well.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 1.9:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW
sudgy (2): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): Robz888, mail-mi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[EFHW]

Isn't Jorbles just the perfect name for a butler?   

[sudgy]

Next sudgy. I think sudgy has become my biggest scumread, for a few reasons:

He's said a lot and given a lot of reads without actually giving many reasons or cases. That is, he seems to be saying a lot without saying much, and the reasons he has given haven't been that substantial. For example, raerae asking questions, raerae unvoting. Granted, a lot of that happened in semi-RVS, but the reasons were carried out of RVS. Then in his #435, he gives a view on everyone, and is giving "pretty big" reads, but very few reasons, or just other people's reasons. He's currently voting Kooshie without giving any of his own reasons, just talking about liopoil's "evidence", which is consistent with classic scum sheeping.

All of my first votes were trying to move the game along.  They weren't serious, they didn't have any reasoning, and if they started to turn into something I would unvote.  I realize I probably should have given my reasons for my "pretty big" reads, but I was just thinking of saying my reads without saying anything else.  I did say my reasons for voting for Kooshie.  They were the same as liopoil's.  I just didn't want to restate everything that he had already said.  I thought his argument showed kooshie was scummy.

On that note, I still think this was scummy:

I'm fairly certain that either liopoil or kooshie are scum.  They both seem pretty scummy to me, but with liopoil having a fairly-convincing argument against kooshie I'm pretty sure they couldn't both be it.

I just think this certainty is more likely to benefit scum sudgy than it is Town sudgy,

I would still be open to other ideas if we lynch kooshie and he's town.  Liopoil seemed kind of scummy, then he shows that Kooshie was also scummy.  To me, that seems like evidence that one of them is scum.

and it also comes after sudgy called EFHW out for being certain of something:

Something I noticed, is that EFHW seemed awfully certain that raerae is mafia...  Why is that?

Also note that EFHW's "certainty" of raerae's scumminess was based on the same reason that sudgy said raerae was scummy.

So it seems like if sudgy is scum, then he is following liopoil into the Kooshie lynch with the aim of blaming lio for it tomorrow and pushing for the lio lynch. I think this is enough for me to Vote: sudgy and see what people think.

I can't say much on this other than that I was just trying to help the town in finding scum.  As I said, I think both Liopoil and Kooshie are acting scummy, so I was just saying that it would probably be a good idea to lynch one of them.

I want a night to go off of (like my rl games.) So I Vote: No Lynch

Starting at night will usually not benefit any strategy, as there won't be anything to go off of.  Also, I don't think going no lynch will be good, the whole thing with having an odd number of people and such.

What's the odd number of people issue?

Let's say we have a no lynch.  There are 9 players, and during the night one of them will (usually) be killed.  So there's eight alive after that, and we need five people to lynch.  All we've done is decreased the number of town.  We could go on like this, but then as there's less people that number will get in the way more.  If there's 6 people, there's 4 needed to lynch, and if there's still two mafia everybody else still has to agree on the vote (yeah, this will happen with 5 people with two mafia, but you get the idea).  And if we no lynch again to get the numbers right we've just lost a second townie.

Basically, it's a lot harder to pull off a vote and messes with how the whole game works (at least for me).

Sorry, Sudgy, but I don't really follow what you're trying to say.

Alright, one more try, it's basically saying, "Let's kill a random town member instead of try to figure out who the mafia is, then make it harder for us to lynch the mafia."  If there was an even number of people alive during the day, however (like if the doctor saves someone), then it might be good to do a no lynch to make it easier to get a vote pulled off.



And to make my big post even longer, I'm on the east coast, so it's PST, A few hours behind forum time.  I can mostly go on (these are in my time) in the later afternoon and the evening on weekdays (although I can manage some other times sometimes), and most of the time all of the weekends.  I do sometimes have things on Saturdays, though.

[sudgy]

And to make my big post even longer, I'm on the east coast...

Oops, west coast.   

[Kooshie]

I'm on forum time, but I usually can't post much on weekdays until 3 or 4:30 pm

[liopoil]

I would be okay with LALL today. It's been proven to work surprisingly well. Would also consider a sudgy lynch now that kooshie probably won't be lynched today. I need to re-read sudgy.

For LALL I don't think robz deserves his V/LA pass anymore. It's been a couple days since and his posting hasn't increased much.

[liopoil]

Even numbers of players is bad for town. Missing one of our chances to hit scum hurts, but in combination with this it is a terrible idea. Here's why even number are bad: (adding to sudgy).

A larger percentage of town members are needed to get a lynch when it is even. Right now we need 5/7 of the townies to lynch scum. after a no lynch the number of votes required to lynch stays the same, and the number of townies goes down. This makes it so 5/6 of the townies need to agree to lynch scum. Even if we lynch town today, we need 4/5 townies to agree to lynch scum, which is slightly better.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.10:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW
sudgy (2): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): Robz888, mail-mi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[mail-mi]

I'm in Mountain Time so I'm just a couple hours behind.

Finally, some reads for me.
Scum: Sudgy (been reading his posts, agree with y'alls), Kooshie because of very hasty defense and
Slight scum: Robz because he's off v/la, raerae
I have no idea: Everyone not listed
Slight town: Jimmmmmm, mcmcsalot
Town: Me, and EFHW.

So, I Vote: Sudgy

P.S. what does LALL mean? I looked for it on the Mafia Lingo, couldn't find it.

[EFHW]

For LALL I don't think robz deserves his V/LA pass anymore. It's been a couple days since and his posting hasn't increased much.

I agree with this, but not sure it makes him scum.

Town: Me, and EFHW. 

So, I Vote: Sudgy

P.S. what does LALL mean? I looked for it on the Mafia Lingo, couldn't find it.

LALL: lynch all lurkers, I believe. 
Thank you for the vote of confidence 

I'm willing to VOTE: Sudgy now and take up Liopoil later.  This puts Sudgy at L-1, so from what I understand, no one else should vote against him until he has a chance to say one more thing.  Is that right?

[liopoil]

Yes, if someone wishes to hammer they should state this intent and give sudgy a chance to say something, such as claim his role. Keep in mind we have until the 4th of feburary, but from my experience in DS9 long D1s aren't necessarily good

[EFHW]

If I am night-killed, I hope all townies will be very suspicious.

[mail-mi]

I'm in Mountain Time so I'm just a couple hours behind.

Finally, some reads for me.
Scum: Sudgy (been reading his posts, agree with y'alls), Kooshie because of very hasty defense
Slight scum: Robz because he's off v/la, raerae
I have no idea: Everyone not listed
Slight town: Jimmmmmm, mcmcsalot
Town: Me, and EFHW.

So, I Vote: Sudgy

P.S. what does LALL mean? I looked for it on the Mafia Lingo, couldn't find it.

Add: Liopoil in between scum and slight scum

[EFHW]

Can you say why?  Going along with other people's opinions without reasons seems to strike people as scummy.

[mail-mi]

Can you say why?  Going along with other people's opinions without reasons seems to strike people as scummy.

Because she's been hasty to jump on the bandwagon and she is hasty to defend herself and jumps from accusation to accusation.

[sudgy]

Alright, if I get one last thing to say, here it is.

First, for a role claim, I'm just a townie.  I know scum would say this too, but you asked for a role claim, so here it is.

Second, I don't see what's so suspicious about me other than my saying that either kooshie or liopoil is mafia.  I've already stated my reasoning for that earlier.  Also, with the one or two people that have said I've been eager to please, I never agreed with someone because I wanted to do the same as them, it was because I agreed with them.  And, while I see why that would seem suspicious, it never has been in my playing group irl.

Other than this, I can't think of anything else to say in my defense...  I guess I should just expect to be lynched my first game because people don't know my playing style, but oh well.

[EFHW]

Can you say why?  Going along with other people's opinions without reasons seems to strike people as scummy.

Because she's been hasty to jump on the bandwagon and she is hasty to defend herself and jumps from accusation to accusation.

Now I'm confused.  Do you mean Kooshie (girl) or Liopoil (guy)?

[mail-mi]

Can you say why?  Going along with other people's opinions without reasons seems to strike people as scummy.

Because she's been hasty to jump on the bandwagon and she is hasty to defend herself and jumps from accusation to accusation.

Actually, add liopoil to scum. And liopoil (guy)

[EFHW]

Alright, if I get one last thing to say, here it is.

First, for a role claim, I'm just a townie.  I know scum would say this too, but you asked for a role claim, so here it is.

Second, I don't see what's so suspicious about me other than my saying that either kooshie or liopoil is mafia.  I've already stated my reasoning for that earlier.  Also, with the one or two people that have said I've been eager to please, I never agreed with someone because I wanted to do the same as them, it was because I agreed with them.  And, while I see why that would seem suspicious, it never has been in my playing group irl.

Other than this, I can't think of anything else to say in my defense...  I guess I should just expect to be lynched my first game because people don't know my playing style, but oh well.

Arghh!  Unvote until we hear what more experienced players think of this post.

[raerae]

WHOA!!! Full-heartedly against a sudgy lynch.  I stated before and will state again, he appears to be playing overzealous, newbie town.  He's come out swinging for the fences and, for the most part, felt strongly with both his town and scum reads.  This seems like somebody who just feels strongly about the things he feels.  If he were more wishy washy and hedgey, I could understand the scumreads because that does tend to read more scummy.  I feel like having strong opinions is more of a townread than scumread when you're having multiple strong reads for both sides.  Well aware there are exceptions and I could be way off base.  I defer to more advanced player to tell me I'm wrong. 

Yes, Jimmmmm is correct that sudgy hasn't given a ton of cases on his own but when he tries to give cases they read almost too awkward to be scum.  He's trying but there is a bit of a learning curve to figuring out the best and most receptive way to form and articulate a case. 

Additionally, I feel he's done things to try to move the game along.  Throwing down votes to get reactions (not my favorite way of creating conversation but, what do I know?), he's answered every question that's been thrown his way, responds to and questions others' reads/cases.  If he's scum, he has me bamboozled.

Holy crap, I have a million things to say.  I'm going to do so in multiple posts instead of one huge one so that's hopefully easier to read.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[raerae]

I'm in Mountain Time so I'm just a couple hours behind.

Finally, some reads for me.
Scum: Sudgy (been reading his posts, agree with y'alls), Kooshie because of very hasty defense and
Slight scum: Robz because he's off v/la, raerae
I have no idea: Everyone not listed
Slight town: Jimmmmmm, mcmcsalot
Town: Me, and EFHW.

So, I Vote: Sudgy

P.S. what does LALL mean? I looked for it on the Mafia Lingo, couldn't find it.

This rubs me in all the wrong ways.  Town needs to work as a team and that means everybody giving input, not just relying on others to do the work.  Guys, I've tried to rewrite this in a way that doesn't sound like an angry coach but that's really all I got and this was the nicest angry coach I could find. 

Also, LALL has been discussed in the following areas of this thread.  Yes, I quoted most of them, not to be a super meanie but to show that mail-mi had the opportunity to ask this question but did not until it applied to him.

Here:

Here:

Here:

And here:

Looking at your reads, exactly what do you agree with regarding his posts?  Also, you have been listed as slight scum read...just wondering if you could expand on that, please?  And can you also explain your townread of EFHW?  If you've already explained you reads, please just point me in the direction of that post, no need to reiterate what's already been said.

[raerae]

Sudgy is my second highest scum-read.

When did this come about?  And why?  Prior to the above quoted post, I can only find you having a slight suspicion of sudgy.

[EFHW]

When I did my reads of everyone, I said he seemed to be following my votes, and then he did the same with someone else.  That's being sheepy, right?  Also, his posts didn't seem to be saying much.  It's late now, but I'll see tomorrow what else I had in mind.  But his latest defense created some real doubts, which is why I unvoted.

[raerae]

So I was doing my reread of raerae, she has pushed hard against lurkers this whole game infact after this post all she has commented on is robz lurking. While I agree with robz needing to post more you also need to post more. In this your big post with reads you say this isn't going to be helpful and then you give null reads on just about everyone. You mention you need to read more on people, this sounds to me like potential scum pushing for lurkers and not giving any real reads.

Just responding to this as it makes my post sound scummier than I think it is.  Responding point by point:

Pushing for a lurker lynch all game:  I believe I only seriously started to consider this when Robz was active in other games but not here prior to his v/la.  And even the word "push" seems too strong.  I'd mostly just love the lurkers to get in here and say things as I would prefer a lynch based on a reasonable case instead of somebody who's just creeping in the background.  That being said, I'm not going to sit by and let somebody creep in the background.

Posts after my reads post:  This is just false.  I asked questions of Kooshie, put my vote where my mouth was after allowing ample time for the lurking persons to come forward and stated the reason I preferred one over the other, explained my vote again, one joke-y post, calling mail-mi out for saying we're still in RVS and there isn't anything to read, LALL post (we're on #495 for those of you watching at home), and that brings us the above quoted post.  I will agree, however, that I should be posting more.  I didn't realize how inactive I have been the last couple of days.

Reads post:  My exact words were "not as helpful as I was hoping," not that it wasn't helpful.  I was more unsure of a lot of the newbies than I thought.  I think that's mostly because it's difficult to keep them straight when we're still trying to figure out personalities.  For example, had a strong town read on sudgy, sort of forgot mail-mi was in this game until pulling up the roster.

Null reads:  I gave one null read.  On Jimmmm, he's also the ONLY person I said I needed/wanted to reread.  Everybody else I had a slight read one way or the other.  You, for example, were towny.  As were EFHW and sudgy.  I can understand where the confusion lies though because I never explicitly state scum, slight scum, town, etc. like most of the rest of you do. 

I do believe I'll have to downgrade you from towny to a little shady for this, mcmc.  I feel like you were trying to make most of that post look scummier than it really is so maybe people only reading your post and not rereading mine will say, "Yup!  This is super scummy!" and just go along with it.  It rings a little too close to mom salon in Blitz9 for my comfort. 

[EFHW]

I remember now - he thought Liopoil had a good case against Kooshie, and he's still voting against Kooshie with Liopoil despite my posts and Kooshie's posts demonstrating Liopoil's less than straightforward reasoning.  Maybe he's not thinking it through, or maybe he really agrees with Liopoil, but I guess he should say more to justify staying with that vote.

[EFHW]

So I was just going to change my vote to sudgy, I have made it clear my top three scum reads are efhw, sudgy, and koshie. Then I realized I voted for mail-me for lurking. This is every player in the game I haven't played with, I'm worried I have tunneled the new players and I want to go back and reread the other players, I suggest the rest of the veterans do the same.

While I stand by my previously mentioned scum reads and would support a sudgy lynch I'm not ready to cast my vote till I make a reread of the vets.

This post makes me read mcmc as town.

[raerae]

And last but not least, Jimmmmm.

Nothing much to update.  I maintain my mostly null read on Jimmmmm, he hasn't stuck out to me in any way which, I guess, does make me suspicious of him.  He's been conservative with his votes and reads, I can appreciate this and it rings slightly townie to me.  He hasn't been inflammatory and nothing he's posted has screamed "LOOK HOW TOWN I AM!!" to me.  I think this is only my second or third game with him (and I'm always dying early) so I don't feel like the Jimmmmm expert in these parts. 

[sudgy]

I remember now - he thought Liopoil had a good case against Kooshie, and he's still voting against Kooshie with Liopoil despite my posts and Kooshie's posts demonstrating Liopoil's less than straightforward reasoning.  Maybe he's not thinking it through, or maybe he really agrees with Liopoil, but I guess he should say more to justify staying with that vote.

I do agree with Liopoil.  The argument seems pretty sound enough, or at least the best I can see.

Also, raerae, I can't tell who you're referring to in some of your posts...  Could you say who you were talking to (especially if it was me)?

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae I did not mean for my post about you to make you look scummier than you are, I think my post urging people to reread vets(I include you in this) would be inconsistent with wanting people to think your scummy off my post alone. Sudgy's defense has not rung towny enough to dissuade my read on him, I do not think then he is playing like newbie town is a good way to clear him either. Something I can speak for personal experience on newbie town play is very similar with newbie scum play. I think the newbie qualities you have mentioned still fit with scum.

Robz you need to come in a give reads and possibly vote for someone, liopoil is right a repeat of D1 in ds9 will cripple newbie's ability to read and give scum a significant advantage.

[Jimmmmm]

I think these wagons on Kooshie and sudgy have been kind of useful, just wish I had a more solid idea on how I would expect Newbie scum to react to such pressure.

raerae's defense of sudgy and suspicion of mail-mi makes some sense to me. I do think sudgy's response to the wagon has been kind of Townie, so I'll Unvote and reassess.

So I re-read mail-mi and here's what I got.

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

I missed this the first time around. I don't really like the way mail-mi jumped on the Robz/raerae idea here. "Further confirmation" seems a bit much for raerae simply trying to call someone out of lurking. Then again, he wasn't the only one to seem pretty sure of Robz/raerae early on, so I don't know. Okay sure, in his next post he says it's "mostly sarcasm", which happens to be the same word that raerae used in calling him out on it, so it seems like it could be a way to get out of the scummy reasoning he gave.

Other than that he hasn't said much, other than to defend his not saying much. He has listed reads for everyone, but given very few reasons. I agree that his reads doesn't seem that much like genuine scumhunting. I guess I'd put him at scummyish. Not sure about sudgy any more, I'll have to give him another look.

[liopoil]

Can you say why?  Going along with other people's opinions without reasons seems to strike people as scummy.

Because she's been hasty to jump on the bandwagon and she is hasty to defend herself and jumps from accusation to accusation.

Actually, add liopoil to scum. And liopoil (guy)

Who are you talking about in the first post about jumping from accusation to accusation? I do not think I have been doing this, and I'm a guy. Did you mean kooshie, and then as an afterthought added me to scum? If so, then why are you suspicious of me? reads without reasons are useless to town, helpful to scum.

[Kooshie]

And last but not least, Jimmmmm.

Nothing much to update.  I maintain my mostly null read on Jimmmmm, he hasn't stuck out to me in any way which, I guess, does make me suspicious of him.  He's been conservative with his votes and reads, I can appreciate this and it rings slightly townie to me.  He hasn't been inflammatory and nothing he's posted has screamed "LOOK HOW TOWN I AM!!" to me.  I think this is only my second or third game with him (and I'm always dying early) so I don't feel like the Jimmmmm expert in these parts.

I feel the same about Jimmmmm, in a way.  When i gave my reads, and I said that everyone had their not-so-town moments, I just assumed that was true.  Now that I think about it, I don't think Jimmmmm really has one.  Jimmmmm is my strongest town read at the moment.

[liopoil]

POST COUNT!

EFHW: 49
Mcmcsalot: 49
Raerae: 43
Sudgy: 40
Liopoil: 40
Jimmmmm: 34
Kooshie: 32
Robz888: 16
Mail-mi: 16

So if we LALL it should be robz or mail-mi, as they have half of everyone else. Among the other 7 of us we are all within 17 posts of each other. As of now I do not think it is fair to accuse anyone that isn't robz888 or mail-mi of lurking. However, the two of them are lurking so bad that lynching one of them may be our best bet. miss-lynching a lurker does not hurt nearly as much as lynching a non-lurker, because lurkers weren't contributing much in the first place anyway. As for which of robz/mail-mi we should lynch if we decide to lynch a lurker, I am not sure.

There are three pairs of people who are tied for number of posts. Interesting

[sudgy]

POST COUNT!

EFHW: 49
Mcmcsalot: 49
Raerae: 43
Sudgy: 40
Liopoil: 40
Jimmmmm: 34
Kooshie: 32
Robz888: 16
Mail-mi: 16

So if we LALL it should be robz or mail-mi, as they have half of everyone else. Among the other 7 of us we are all within 17 posts of each other. As of now I do not think it is fair to accuse anyone that isn't robz888 or mail-mi of lurking. However, the two of them are lurking so bad that lynching one of them may be our best bet. miss-lynching a lurker does not hurt nearly as much as lynching a non-lurker, because lurkers weren't contributing much in the first place anyway. As for which of robz/mail-mi we should lynch if we decide to lynch a lurker, I am not sure.

There are three pairs of people who are tied for number of posts. Interesting

Since my last reads, mail-mi has gotten a bit on slight scum for me...  He's just been saying something every once in a while, usually agreeing with somebody about something.

On a side note, liopoil has gotten a slight bit more scummy for me (not from your last post, a bit before).  A big thing was your prompting me to vote for kooshie.  Almost like you were saying, "Just hurry up and sign this contract!" (a strange way of saying it, but oh well)  I would say that liopoil and kooshie are around the same now, and mail-mi has gotten up there too.  I'll Unvote for now until I have more agreement with myself.

[liopoil]

I wasn't rushing you. I mean, yes, I wanted to lynch kooshie because she was the scummiest at the time. I just assumed you would probably want to and so was telling you. I was at least fairly sure you didn't want it on raerae. And I mean, I was right, as in your next post you said you forgot and did change your vote. Anyway, I still think kooshie is the scummiest, but not by as much as before. Nothing new has been adding to the case, and other cases have arisen. It doesn't look as though that lynch will be going through today at least, soUnvote.

[liopoil]

of mail-mi and robz88, I've decided I would slightly prefer a robz888 lynch. This is mainly because mail-mi has been contributing when he does post, such as giving reads, even if he hasn't mentioned anything new. Robz888 hasn't given much in the way of reads, and his main contribution was some theory talk at the beginning.

I've just remembered, mail-mi did in fact mention something new. He proposed a no lynch. While we have pretty much agreed that this is a bad idea it was still something new to talk about.

I'm not going to vote for robz888 yet, because I would still like to lynch someone based on something(s) they said, not the fact that they didn't say much. as we get nearer to the deadline I will reconsider.

[raerae]

I remember now - he thought Liopoil had a good case against Kooshie, and he's still voting against Kooshie with Liopoil despite my posts and Kooshie's posts demonstrating Liopoil's less than straightforward reasoning.  Maybe he's not thinking it through, or maybe he really agrees with Liopoil, but I guess he should say more to justify staying with that vote.

I do agree with Liopoil.  The argument seems pretty sound enough, or at least the best I can see.

Also, raerae, I can't tell who you're referring to in some of your posts...  Could you say who you were talking to (especially if it was me)?

Sudgy, I never specifically addressed you, in order of posts I was speaking to The Town, Town/mail-mi, efoo, mcmc, and Town.

[mail-mi]

I would just like to say the attributes that I use to categorize as scum, for all of you who would like me to give reasons for my reads.
-Very hasty defense (meaning, seeing someone vote or accuse them, and quickly come up with a large post explaining all the reasons they couldn't be scum,)
-Lurking (I know that's me, I get on when I can.)
-Tunneling
-And, hastily jumping from accusation to accusation

Unvote. The people I find most scummy for these reasons are liopoil, Kooshie, and raerae.

[mail-mi]

Robz, you haven't had a ton to say (not a lot to go on, I know) but will you have time to before you go v/la to get in here?

Raerae asking Robz to say something? Seems suspicious... Further conformation of Robz/raerae?

I missed this the first time around. I don't really like the way mail-mi jumped on the Robz/raerae idea here. "Further confirmation" seems a bit much for raerae simply trying to call someone out of lurking. Then again, he wasn't the only one to seem pretty sure of Robz/raerae early on, so I don't know. Okay sure, in his next post he says it's "mostly sarcasm", which happens to be the same word that raerae used in calling him out on it, so it seems like it could be a way to get out of the scummy reasoning he gave.

I am a sarcastic person. I Trader Feodums. I King's Court my Coppers. I Throne Room Estates. I know why the chicken crossed the road. I'm sarcastic.

I know that sounded scummy, but I'm just being straight forward. I'll post less sarcastic remarks. Sorry if I deteriorated from the game.

[liopoil]

tradering feoda might me a good idea sometimes, at least it's legal.

can you elaborate which of those four apply to the three people you mentioned?

[mail-mi]

tradering feoda might me a good idea sometimes, at least it's legal.

can you elaborate which of those four apply to the three people you mentioned?

Hasty defense is my biggest scum read, I have all three down for this reason
Lurking, none of them
Tunneling: liopoil was tunneling Kooshie at one point
Jumping: liopoil after tunneling jumped around a bit for accusations, and Kooshie a little bit too.

Looking back at this, I find myself thinking that liopoil (you) is (are) the most scummy, and we're getting near to the end, so I Vote: liopoil

[Jorbles]

"If you had a decent amount of Feodum's and you Tradered one of them. You would gain 7 Silvers, which makes each of your other Feodums worth at least two more Victory points. I would think that might be a good idea, but I digress, back to who is responsible for the murder. I will assure you that the butler did not do it... this time."

[liopoil]

I could try to deny some of those, but that might just strengthen your scum read on me for hasty defense...

[mail-mi]

"If you had a decent amount of Feodum's and you Tradered one of them. You would gain 7 Silvers, which makes each of your other Feodums worth at least two more Victory points. I would think that might be a good idea, but I digress, back to who is responsible for the murder. I will assure you that the butler did not do it... this time."

lol!

[EFHW]

Can we have a vote count?

[mail-mi]

I could try to deny some of those, but that might just strengthen your scum read on me for hasty defense...

Defending yourself does not give scum read. Hastily defending yourself with a giant list of reasons and there's even some that don't make sense would increase scum read.

[liopoil]

in that case I don't think any of us have done that...

and what's tunneling? I intended to just be presenting a case which seemed quite valid to me... I thought tunneling was mentioning it repeatedly pushing for their lynch and not really considering other cases.

[sudgy]

...I King's Court my Coppers. I Throne Room Estates...

Oh man, I love doing those...

On topic, I might be okay with voting for liopoil, but I'm still not sure yet.

[Kooshie]

of mail-mi and robz88, I've decided I would slightly prefer a robz888 lynch. This is mainly because mail-mi has been contributing when he does post, such as giving reads, even if he hasn't mentioned anything new. Robz888 hasn't given much in the way of reads, and his main contribution was some theory talk at the beginning.

I've just remembered, mail-mi did in fact mention something new. He proposed a no lynch. While we have pretty much agreed that this is a bad idea it was still something new to talk about.

I'm not going to vote for robz888 yet, because I would still like to lynch someone based on something(s) they said, not the fact that they didn't say much. as we get nearer to the deadline I will reconsider.

I would be fine with lynching either Robz or mail-mi, but I want a better idea of both of them before they get lynched, so if/when I play another game with them, I have a better idea of what's town, what's scum, and what's just personality.  I'm going to Unvote for now, but I'm all for LALL.

[EFHW]

tradering feoda might me a good idea sometimes, at least it's legal.

can you elaborate which of those four apply to the three people you mentioned?

Hasty defense is my biggest scum read, I have all three down for this reason
Lurking, none of them
Tunneling: liopoil was tunneling Kooshie at one point
Jumping: liopoil after tunneling jumped around a bit for accusations, and Kooshie a little bit too.

Looking back at this, I find myself thinking that liopoil (you) is (are) the most scummy, and we're getting near to the end, so I Vote: liopoil

I agree that Liopoil is scummy, and he did tunnel Kooshie.  But he didn't jump around with accusations that I can see - he was pretty consistently Kooshie.  And can you point out hasty defense on his part? 

If this is as scummy an accusation as it seems AND Liopoil is scummy, then maybe you are bussing?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.12:

Kooshie (1): sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
sudgy (1): mcmcsalot
liopoil (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (5): Robz888, EFHW, Jimmmmm, liopoil, Kooshie

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[mail-mi]

tradering feoda might me a good idea sometimes, at least it's legal.

can you elaborate which of those four apply to the three people you mentioned?

Hasty defense is my biggest scum read, I have all three down for this reason
Lurking, none of them
Tunneling: liopoil was tunneling Kooshie at one point
Jumping: liopoil after tunneling jumped around a bit for accusations, and Kooshie a little bit too.

Looking back at this, I find myself thinking that liopoil (you) is (are) the most scummy, and we're getting near to the end, so I Vote: liopoil

I agree that Liopoil is scummy, and he did tunnel Kooshie.  But he didn't jump around with accusations that I can see - he was pretty consistently Kooshie.  And can you point out hasty defense on his part? 

If this is as scummy an accusation as it seems AND Liopoil is scummy, then maybe you are bussing?

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped her case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once. Hasty defenses? Really, from what I found, a lot of the times someone accused her, she would reply with a question then give at least a good-sized list of why she wasn't. I find long defenses more scummy than those of short, to-the-point defenses.

[EFHW]

I'm going a little crazy here.  How about we LALL Robz888, and go from there? 

VOTE: Robz888

[raerae]

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped her case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once. Hasty defenses? Really, from what I found, a lot of the times someone accused her, she would reply with a question then give at least a good-sized list of why she wasn't. I find long defenses more scummy than those of short, to-the-point defenses.

So what would be an acceptable defense?  And in what time frame?  You say short and to-the-point but what does that mean to you?  Has anybody in this game given non-scummy defenses of themselves?  Additionally, can I immediately respond to a case against me or do I have to wait until there are 3 or 4 votes on me to do so?

[mail-mi]

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped her case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once. Hasty defenses? Really, from what I found, a lot of the times someone accused her, she would reply with a question then give at least a good-sized list of why she wasn't. I find long defenses more scummy than those of short, to-the-point defenses.

So what would be an acceptable defense?  And in what time frame?  You say short and to-the-point but what does that mean to you?  Has anybody in this game given non-scummy defenses of themselves?  Additionally, can I immediately respond to a case against me or do I have to wait until there are 3 or 4 votes on me to do so?

I shouldn't really say hasty. I say overdefending. IRL, we give a few sentence defense to try to deflect votes. I don't want to read a book, I want a few sentences that get to your point.

[raerae]

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped her case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once. Hasty defenses? Really, from what I found, a lot of the times someone accused her, she would reply with a question then give at least a good-sized list of why she wasn't. I find long defenses more scummy than those of short, to-the-point defenses.

So what would be an acceptable defense?  And in what time frame?  You say short and to-the-point but what does that mean to you?  Has anybody in this game given non-scummy defenses of themselves?  Additionally, can I immediately respond to a case against me or do I have to wait until there are 3 or 4 votes on me to do so?

I shouldn't really say hasty. I say overdefending. IRL, we give a few sentence defense to try to deflect votes. I don't want to read a book, I want a few sentences that get to your point.

Welcome to the forums 

[mcmcsalot]

Yes my previous town read of robz is slipping quickly, though if were going to lynch a lurker I would rather mail-mi because I find his interactions scummier and I thin his flip will b more valuable.

[raerae]

Yes my previous town read of robz is slipping quickly, though if were going to lynch a lurker I would rather mail-mi because I find his interactions scummier and I thin his flip will b more valuable.

This is going to sound gross...I agree with you that mail-mi is being scummier but I still prefer the Robz lynch ONLY because this a newbie game and I know how much it sucks, as a newbie, to get your ass handed to you D1 just because people don't know you and your personality.  We know it's unlike Robz to lurk but we really don't know ANYTHING about mail-mi.  I hate this line of thinking in reality, you know, the whole "Congrats!  You got 20th Place out of 19 teams!  Here's a trophy!" thing but since we aren't in reality right now and we do want new blood here so I think the forums, as a whole, could benefit from lynching a vet over a newbie when we have roughly the same case on them.

[EFHW]

If mail-mi gets more votes, I'd be willing to switch mine to make it go, but I agree with raerae that it does seem like it would make a better game overall to keep an active participant and lynch the non-contributor.

[mcmcsalot]

While I understand what your saying raerae, I cannot support lynching a less scummy candidate who I(and everyone) read better just to be friendly. Especially because I have other scum reads that still dot include robz.

vote: mail-mi to get this moving.

[mcmcsalot]

If mail-mi gets more votes, I'd be willing to switch mine to make it go, but I agree with raerae that it does seem like it would make a better game overall to keep an active participant and lynch the non-contributor.

They are both non-contributors, that is not the argument se is making.

[EFHW]

correction: I mean I agree with Liopoil about the active contributor part (hmm, maybe I should rethink that) and agree with raerae about getting to know mail-mi better.  You can see why I'm going a little nuts.  Because I also agree with mcmc that the mail-mi might be more informative, since we can use his flip to read into people's earlier positions.  Maybe I shouldn't be posting at all! 

[raerae]

Ok, we'll agree to disagree on that.  Can you explain your townread on robz?   

[raerae]

And can anybody explain how mail-mi would be more informative?  He hasn't really interacted with anybody in particular, has he?  Did I miss it?  In my eyes, he seems to have swooped in and just sheeped the nearest votes.

[mcmcsalot]

More people have given there own opinions on mail-mi which means we could search for the person who seemed to know what he was goin to flip(this works regardless of alignment) and something I find useful.

[mcmcsalot]

The town read on robz is that the few things he has done are the exact same things I have seen him do as town, again I won't say exactly what so he cannot copy but it makes me lean town on him.

[sudgy]

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

[raerae]

More people have given there own opinions on mail-mi which means we could search for the person who seemed to know what he was goin to flip(this works regardless of alignment) and something I find useful.

And townpoints back on mcmc...

[mcmcsalot]

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

Are you actually saying you are voting for him aka support the lunch but don't want to vote incase he might get lynched aka you don't support it??

[EFHW]

And can anybody explain how mail-mi would be more informative?  He hasn't really interacted with anybody in particular, has he?  Did I miss it?  In my eyes, he seems to have swooped in and just sheeped the nearest votes.

My thought was that people have come out with stronger opinions about mail-mi, and we at least have some of his opinions too.  We know nothing from Robz, so whichever way he flips doesn't let us reread him to any benefit.  Kooshie, Sudgy, and mcmc have all come out against mail-mi at different times - as have you.  Liopoil advocated against lynching him, and mail-mi voted to lynch Liopoil.

Also, mail-mi isn't really paying attention - he still thinks Liopoil is a girl, and his reasoning is arbitrary.  I think I'm talking myself into changing my mind: VOTE: Mail-mi.

[raerae]

@all, does anybody not support a mail-mi lynch?  Other than me for reasons which have nothing to do with actions within the game?

[sudgy]

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

Are you actually saying you are voting for him aka support the lunch but don't want to vote incase he might get lynched aka you don't support it??

I support it, but I want to see what he says.  If he still doesn't say anything, or gives a bad defence, I'll vote for him.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.13:

Kooshie (1): sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (2): mcmcsalot, EFHW

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Jimmmmm, liopoil, Kooshie

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[Jimmmmm]

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

Yeah, this doesn't make sense at all.

[sudgy]

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

Yeah, this doesn't make sense at all.

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

Are you actually saying you are voting for him aka support the lunch but don't want to vote incase he might get lynched aka you don't support it??

I support it, but I want to see what he says.  If he still doesn't say anything, or gives a bad defence, I'll vote for him.

[sudgy]

But, he still hasn't said anything, so I'll Vote: mail-mi for now.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.14:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy {L-2}

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Jimmmmm, liopoil, Kooshie

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[liopoil]

@raerae: I do not really support a mail-mi lynch. At this point I would really prefer a robz888 lynch to a mail-mi lynch, for reasons I've mentioned. I still would like to lynch kooshie more than either one, but it seems at this point the rest of the town is pretty much set on LALL

[liopoil]

My order of who to lynch, from my choice lynch to worst lynch:

kooshie
robz888
mail-mi
EFHW
sudgy
Jimmmmm
Mcmcsalot
raerae
Liopoil

[Kooshie]

I'm returning my Vote: Mail-mi for all the reasons everyone has mentioned.  Oh, sure, he's contributing now, but not really anything useful.  I'm not against a Robz888 lynch, but I would definitely rather a mail-mi lynch.  That puts mail-mi at L-1, right?

[sudgy]

I'm returning my Vote: Mail-mi for all the reasons everyone has mentioned.  Oh, sure, he's contributing now, but not really anything useful.  I'm not against a Robz888 lynch, but I would definitely rather a mail-mi lynch.  That puts mail-mi at L-1, right?

Yeah.

[liopoil]

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped heris case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once.

FTFY

I never dropped my case on kooshie. It was just that it seems like we aren't lynching kooshie today, so I went for my second choice, a LALL lynch. There was nothing else for me to say about kooshie besides repeating things I'd already said, so I dropped it.

[Kooshie]

tradering feoda might me a good idea sometimes, at least it's legal.

can you elaborate which of those four apply to the three people you mentioned?

Hasty defense is my biggest scum read, I have all three down for this reason
Lurking, none of them
Tunneling: liopoil was tunneling Kooshie at one point
Jumping: liopoil after tunneling jumped around a bit for accusations, and Kooshie a little bit too.

Looking back at this, I find myself thinking that liopoil (you) is (are) the most scummy, and we're getting near to the end, so I Vote: liopoil

I agree that Liopoil is scummy, and he did tunnel Kooshie.  But he didn't jump around with accusations that I can see - he was pretty consistently Kooshie.  And can you point out hasty defense on his part? 

If this is as scummy an accusation as it seems AND Liopoil is scummy, then maybe you are bussing?

liopoil's jumping around was just that she at one point completely dropped her case against Kooshie and started going for LALL, which I guess is just jumping once. Hasty defenses? Really, from what I found, a lot of the times someone accused her, she would reply with a question then give at least a good-sized list of why she wasn't. I find long defenses more scummy than those of short, to-the-point defenses.

Please explain...  Liopoil is a guy, by the way.  Who replies with a question and a good-sized list?  Why are long defenses scummy if they contain useful information?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.15:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie {L-1}

Not Voting (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[liopoil]

mail-mi: do not claim until someone voices an intent to hammer. sudgy already claimed VT which give scum one fewer person to shoot at if they want to hit PR, that is, unless sudgy is scum. This is why claiming is anti-town and shouldn't be done unless you are going to be lynched if you don't. OR you are a cop with a scum result, but that's different.

[Robz888]

Blah, I'm sorry I have been the most unhelpful vet ever, guys. Good thing Jimm, raerae, and mcmc are all making worthy contributions. I need to re-read this whole thing, I can't tell the new players apart from each other. I just haven't had time yet, I'm sorry. Deadline isn't soon, is it?

[mcmcsalot]

not till monday robz you've got time.

[mail-mi]

Oh good in the course of 1 and a half pages I've been put at L-1. I'm sorry guys, I haven't been posting as much info as I should. I post when I can. Here's my defense: I'm a Vanilla Townie. I know I've been "lurking," but if we want to get a lurker, we should get Robz, because he's posted almost no information. I've given reads and reasons for putting people as scum. I've put up my case against liopoil, he's been tunneling Kooshie and a little bit overdefending. I've done what I want to do.

I am a VT.

[mail-mi]

I know I've been "lurking," but if we want to get a lurker, we should get Robz, because he's posted almost no information.

Well, at least he's been posting less info than me.

[Kooshie]

...Liopoil advocated against lynching him, and mail-mi voted to lynch Liopoil.

mail-mi has posted his reasons for voting liopoil, but personally, I think I did those things more than liopoil.  We don't have too much to discuss right now, so I'm going to add something.  Could mail-mi be bussing?  Wouldn't he welcome any case to help him?  I'm going to use one of those chart things I like. If..

mail-mi: scum liopoil: scum; then look above.  Basically, liopoil is trying to inconspicuously save mail-mi, and mail-mi is bussing
mail-mi: town liopoil: scum; I find this very unlikely.  Liopoil, being scum, would know that mail-mi was town, and would welcome this easy lynch of town.  Possibly he would say no, but gradually change his mind, but probably not.
mail-mi: scum liopoil: town; also look above.  Wouldn't mail-mi welcome someone who thinks that he's not scum?  Liopoil would just be scum hunting, and would be sincerely thinkining that mail-mi was town.
mail-mi: town liopoil: town; then liopoil is scum hunting, and mail-mi has been lurking, repeating things people have said, and the like. Like Kooshie used to do, except she came back earlier and said more original things.  But still, very similar.

[sudgy]

...Liopoil advocated against lynching him, and mail-mi voted to lynch Liopoil.

mail-mi has posted his reasons for voting liopoil, but personally, I think I did those things more than liopoil.  We don't have too much to discuss right now, so I'm going to add something.  Could mail-mi be bussing?  Wouldn't he welcome any case to help him?  I'm going to use one of those chart things I like. If..

mail-mi: scum liopoil: scum; then look above.  Basically, liopoil is trying to inconspicuously save mail-mi, and mail-mi is bussing
mail-mi: town liopoil: scum; I find this very unlikely.  Liopoil, being scum, would know that mail-mi was town, and would welcome this easy lynch of town.  Possibly he would say no, but gradually change his mind, but probably not.
mail-mi: scum liopoil: town; also look above.  Wouldn't mail-mi welcome someone who thinks that he's not scum?  Liopoil would just be scum hunting, and would be sincerely thinkining that mail-mi was town.
mail-mi: town liopoil: town; then liopoil is scum hunting, and mail-mi has been lurking, repeating things people have said, and the like. Like Kooshie used to do, except she came back earlier and said more original things.  But still, very similar.

I have had thoughts of it being Liopoil/mail-mi, but I didn't want to say anything yet.

[Jorbles]

"Mmmmmm the weekend approaches. As a butler I have had no time off for 37 years. This weekend since I find myself technically unemployed I think I will take a 2 day vacation. Please let me know if you need anything before I leave. While I am out please do not steal the fine china or make appointments with any salespeople who come calling."

[Kooshie]

I have had thoughts of it being Liopoil/mail-mi, but I didn't want to say anything yet.

why not?

[liopoil]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

[sudgy]

I have had thoughts of it being Liopoil/mail-mi, but I didn't want to say anything yet.

why not?

Saying what you think will sometimes make the mafia find a good way to use it.  Also, it wasn't that strong, just a random thought here and there.

[Kooshie]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

What exactly is hammering?

[liopoil]

to cast the vote which finalizes the lynch.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.16:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie {L-1}

Not Voting (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[raerae]

Can we give Robz a chance to give thoughts before hammertime?  We have until Monday.

[mcmcsalot]

So Jimm has expressed a scum read on mail-mi and raerae has said she would lynch mail-mi, she just would rather robz. I would like robz to state his opinion on many of the things that have gone on but especially this mail-mi lynch. The positions raerae and jimm are in are very low risk, I understand that we are at L-1 and you cant just throw your vote in support but you have both expressed this read previously to mail-mi at L-1. So I am wondering what the two of you are thinking and if either of you would hammer pending robz reads.

[mcmcsalot]

Can we give Robz a chance to give thoughts before hammertime?  We have until Monday.

Yep this is just what I was wondering.

[liopoil]

yes, I would agree with waiting until the deadline. Giving people chances to catch up is pro-town.

[sudgy]

I'm fine with that, as long as we still manage something (such as suddenly at the deadline, we decide against mail-mi, then we don't know who to lynch).

[EFHW]

...Liopoil advocated against lynching him, and mail-mi voted to lynch Liopoil.

mail-mi: scum liopoil: scum; then look above.  Basically, liopoil is trying to inconspicuously save mail-mi, and mail-mi is bussing

mail-mi: town liopoil: scum; I find this very unlikely.  Liopoil, being scum, would know that mail-mi was town, and would welcome this easy lynch of town.  Possibly he would say no, but gradually change his mind, but probably not.

mail-mi: scum liopoil: town; also look above.  Wouldn't mail-mi welcome someone who thinks that he's not scum?  Liopoil would just be scum hunting, and would be sincerely thinkining that mail-mi was town.

mail-mi: town liopoil: town; then liopoil is scum hunting, and mail-mi has been lurking, repeating things people have said, and the like.

The first two make a lot of sense.  As for the second two:

mail-mi: Scum, Liopoil: Town would be consistent with what has been happening now.  Mail-mi's vote on Liopoil would be an attempt at deflection. 

mail-mi: Town, Liopoil: Town In this case, I think we might suspect mcmc as he got the wagon on mail-mi going.

[EFHW]

An argument to lynch mail-mi even if he is town is that we should consider the effect on the game of having a townie that doesn't read the posts very well.  This is as obfuscating as having scum trying to distract town from sound reasoning.

[Jimmmmm]

I agree with waiting for Robz to weigh in. Hopefully he can give a solid contribution before deadline. I disagree with a Robz lynch at this stage, because even though he's been lurking, he's been lurking everywhere so I don't see any reason why he's more or less likely than average to be scum.

I'm getting a pretty strong Town vibe from both mcmc and raerae. Which of course leaves me with liopoil and all the first-timers. I know mcmc has mentioned trying not to focus on the Newbies, but that's just the general feeling I'm getting.

I'll have another look at mail-mi shortly.

[mail-mi]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

I thought that you meant don't make a claim of a power role.

[mcmcsalot]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

I thought that you meant don't make a claim of a power role.

the issue is that you have claimed vt and given scum knowledge that your not a power role. We don't want scum to kill our power roles and two people have already claimed vt without any lynch flip. We are giving scum too much information to work with.

[mail-mi]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

I thought that you meant don't make a claim of a power role.

the issue is that you have claimed vt and given scum knowledge that your not a power role. We don't want scum to kill our power roles and two people have already claimed vt without any lynch flip. We are giving scum too much information to work with.

Oh, okay. Well, sorry about that :-)

[Kooshie]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

I thought that you meant don't make a claim of a power role.

the issue is that you have claimed vt and given scum knowledge that your not a power role. We don't want scum to kill our power roles and two people have already claimed vt without any lynch flip. We are giving scum too much information to work with.

Oh, okay. Well, sorry about that :-)

Oh, a smiley face?  That makes everything better.  There isn't really anything happy about this situation. 

[EFHW]

Just a game!

[Kooshie]

Just a game!

I know... But still...

[mail-mi]

I am a VT.

I believe I asked you not to claim, because claiming hurts town. Even if you disagree with my reasoning you should have posted why. I am inclined to think that you are not reading the thread very carefully, because of this and other things such as you thinking I am female.  While I think robz is more likely to flip scum than you, you are helping town less.  If you and sudgy are both town than scum now only has 5 people to shoot at for the PR, 4 if we lynch a different VT.

Your claim also makes you more likely to be lynched, as we now know we won't be lynching (one of) our PR.

I'm really considering hammering now.

I thought that you meant don't make a claim of a power role.

the issue is that you have claimed vt and given scum knowledge that your not a power role. We don't want scum to kill our power roles and two people have already claimed vt without any lynch flip. We are giving scum too much information to work with.

Oh, okay. Well, sorry about that :-)

Oh, a smiley face?  That makes everything better.  There isn't really anything happy about this situation.

Oh, sorry, just trying to approach my almost inevitable demise with a happy face

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.17:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie {L-1}

Not Voting (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

[sudgy]

(Sorry I haven't been here, I knew I would be gone from the early morning to mid-afternoon today, but suddenly other things came up)

If we want to lynch mail-me, someone needs to hammer soon.  (I know we're waiting for Robz, but if we want to lynch mail-mi we should at least get it done)

[raerae]

(Sorry I haven't been here, I knew I would be gone from the early morning to mid-afternoon today, but suddenly other things came up)

If we want to lynch mail-me, someone needs to hammer soon.  (I know we're waiting for Robz, but if we want to lynch mail-mi we should at least get it done)

We have until Monday.  It will benefit Town to hear what (if anything) Robz has to say.

[sudgy]

(Sorry I haven't been here, I knew I would be gone from the early morning to mid-afternoon today, but suddenly other things came up)

If we want to lynch mail-me, someone needs to hammer soon.  (I know we're waiting for Robz, but if we want to lynch mail-mi we should at least get it done)

We have until Monday.  It will benefit Town to hear what (if anything) Robz has to say.

I know, I just am hoping we still get something done this day.

[liopoil]

question: who is going to hammer, and when exactly?

[liopoil]

At this point I am willing to if nobody else has already said that they are going to.

[raerae]

I just want to make sure everybody is aware that we are killing off somebody who, while generally unhelpful and sort of scummy, is semi-active, over somebody who is clearly inactive and has been the entire game with no signs of changing that anytime soon.  I understand RL busyness, I really do, but if Robz is scum, he is the single most dangerous player in this game right now because he has said nothing and somehow has some towncred. 

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae my issue with lynching robz is I can read him pretty well, while he's not posting what he has posted I see as town!robz and as soon as he does start posting it should solidify my read. I agree he's not playing enough, but I have let a lynch through on robz in too many games I didn't feel right about it and sure enough he turned up town and I wish I would have fought harder. In a game where I don't know half the people I would prefer keeping around those I feel I can read easily and lynching my scum reads.

[Kooshie]

I've already voted for mail-mi, so I can't hammer.  if/when robz says something, we are probably still  going to lynch mail-mi.  Can't robz say something after we do it?  The deadline is tomorrow.  Yes, it will be night after that, but on day2  robz could say what he thinks.  I have a question: night only comes into affect after the deadline and not right after a lynch, right?  So we can lynch, and then robz can talk.  I'm just afraid that someone will forget to hammer, or while waiting for robz the deadline passes.

[mail-mi]

Oh please, let's forget to hammer 

[raerae]

Oh please, let's forget to hammer 

Mail-mi, any parting words?  Thoughts on anybody other than lio?  Would you mind making a list of current players and giving your thoughts on them in that way? 

[EFHW]

@Kooshie: Night starts right away, I believe.

[ashersky]

After a hammer falls, no more voting or unvoting can occur.  The game enters "twilight" until I post a flip.  At that point, night begins and the thread is locked.

[liopoil]

Ash, if we agree, can we have an extended twilight until the deadline after we hammer? Or request to auto-hammer at deadline?

[ashersky]

Ash, if we agree, can we have an extended twilight until the deadline after we hammer? Or request to auto-hammer at deadline?

No.

[liopoil]

ahhh well. Worth a shot.

[Kooshie]

How long will "twilight" be?  can we post while it's going on?

[ashersky]

How long will "twilight" be?  can we post while it's going on?

Twilight will last until I post the flip.  It could be ten seconds or ten hours.  Once I post "THREAD LOCKED" no one can post.  Until that point, everyone can post, even the lynched player.

[Robz888]

Vote: mail-mi

There's no way I complete a re-read by deadline... I'm traveling tomorrow... and I don't want deadline to get missed because of me.

If I don't survive until Day 2, watch out for some coordinated assault from the veterans, although none of them have been so scummy to me. If the veterans continue to not seem scummy, well... M-VII was one flawlessly by a newbie mafia team.

[ashersky]

THREAD LOCKED

[ashersky]

Final Vote Count:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

[ashersky]

It was decided mail-mi was to perish.

Jorbles went to a cabinet and pulled out a dusty wrought iron sledge hammer that he seemed to have trouble lifting.

"This hammer has been with the Ashersky clan for a century and a half. It was wielded by Forbinald Ashersky at the Grantham Riot lynching when he bashed in the head of famed hitman Ronny 'Murderhands' Malone. I trust you will use this wisely."

Jorbles hands the heavy old sledgehammer to Robz888.

Robz888 walks over to mail-mi, pinned down by the other people in the house, and raises the hammer above his head. Quickly he brings it down as mail-mi screams. There is a sickening thump.

"Step aside please.  I will clean up the body." Jorbles shoos everyone away and begins preparing the body for burial. "Oh I believe this fell out of mail-mi's pocket. You'll probably want it for your discussions."

It is a card declaring mail-mi to be a member of the local neighbourhood watch, devoted to keeping the mafia out of his community.

mail-mi, the Vanilla Townie, has been killed.

"Forbinald Ashersky would be turning in his grave."

[ashersky]

Night 1 has begun.  Actions are due to myself and Jorbles within 48 hours.

Day 2 will begin by 8:15 p.m. on Tuesday, February 5.

[ashersky]

FYI, if all actions are in early, I may start open D2 early as well.

[ashersky]

Psst…wake up!

The group slowly came to after a hard night’s rest.  They looked around, dejected.  The spot where they had hammered an innocent was spotless.  That Jorbes was really a good butler.

Can you hear me?  It’s ashersky!

The group looked around, trying to see where the voice was coming from.  One of them spotted the air vent high up on the inner wall.

I’ve been taken.  You must find out who the mafia are in this group so you can save me.  Please!

The group was determined.  They would get this sorted.  As they stood up, someone noticed that Jimmmmm was still sleeping in his chair.  They went over and touched his shoulder to wake him up.

He slumped forward in his chair, and they saw the bullet hole.

Jimmmmm was killed during the night.  He was the Town Cop.

Day 2 has begun!

[Robz888]

Yikes.

[sudgy]

(I'm going to say something in a bit, but before I do that, I want to say that the thread still says it's day 1)

[sudgy]

Alright, I decided to re-read Jimmmmm to try to see if there was any reason someone would want to kill him.

The only people he accused were me and Kooshie.  I obviously think I'm town and that would leave kooshie as the only person with a reason to kill him.  Although I don't know if Kooshie is scum, so it probably was someone's random kill (or someone wanted to kill a vet so newbies could play longer).

I'm still slightly suspicious of both liopoil and kooshie, but am not going to vote yet.

[Robz888]

Alright, I decided to re-read Jimmmmm to try to see if there was any reason someone would want to kill him.

The only people he accused were me and Kooshie.  I obviously think I'm town and that would leave kooshie as the only person with a reason to kill him.  Although I don't know if Kooshie is scum, so it probably was someone's random kill (or someone wanted to kill a vet so newbies could play longer).

I'm still slightly suspicious of both liopoil and kooshie, but am not going to vote yet.

This is a manufactured defense of you killing Jimm.

Vote: sudgy

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.8:

Kooshie (3): (Jimmmmm), liopoil, sudgy, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW

Not Voting (3): Robz888, mail-mi, Jimmmmm

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi, (EFHW)

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

Final Vote Count:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil

These were the three wagons of the day, people in parentheses were on wagon until just before the vote count, both times the person unvoted because they did not want them at L-1.

From looking at this I think the more important wagon is actually the one on sudgy, there are 2 confirmed town, sudgy was at L-1 for a little while, I know I'm town which means regardless of efhw's alignment sudgy has to be scum. There is no reason one and possibly two scum had the chance to hammer sudgy but decided not to. Efhw jumping off wagon once it was at L-1 is less scummy than I first thought because it was her that brought sudgy to L-1, had she been on the wagon for a while it would have been very scummy but it instead looks like good town play.

It also suprised me that raerae was on robz for every wagon, this combined with the fact that I already felt her reads were weaker than I excpected looks alot like scum trying not to make waves.

These are the two things that stand out to me the most and I am going to vote: sudgy

I invite everyone to further analyze the wagons and express opinions.

[sudgy]

A few very recent things have made me change my mind...

Vote Count 1.8:

Kooshie (3): (Jimmmmm), liopoil, sudgy, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
liopoil (1): EFHW

Not Voting (3): Robz888, mail-mi, Jimmmmm

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi, (EFHW)

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

Final Vote Count:

Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil

I noticed Robz888 wasn't voting for either of the first two.  This could be attributed to his lurkiness, maybe he didn't notice until too late.  And then when he saw mail-mi at L-1, he lynched him.  (This is all hypothetical, of course.)

Also, just saying "Yikes" seems scummy to me.  Maybe trying to make it seem like he's empathetic with the town.

Last, he instantly accused me when I just was trying to see who might want to kill Jimmmmm.  He saw something that seemed a bit scummy, and jumped for it.

From this, I'm going to Vote: Robz888

[sudgy]

Also, mcmc, if you're mafia, you could have seen that and thought "Oh, this is a perfect argument!  It'll get people to vote for sudgy!"  I'm starting to get suspicious of you as well.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.1:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcslot
Robz888 (1): sudgy

Not Voting (4): EFHW, Kooshie, liopoil, raerae

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 will end at 7:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 17.

[liopoil]

sudgy, you're coming across as desperately diverting attention to everyone but yourself. kooshie in your first post, then robz, now mcmc. You also mentioned me in your first post for some reason. (first real post, not the one where you said that you were about to post something)

[Kooshie]

Alright, I decided to re-read Jimmmmm to try to see if there was any reason someone would want to kill him.

The only people he accused were me and Kooshie.  I obviously think I'm town and that would leave kooshie as the only person with a reason to kill him.  Although I don't know if Kooshie is scum, so it probably was someone's random kill (or someone wanted to kill a vet so newbies could play longer).

I'm still slightly suspicious of both liopoil and kooshie, but am not going to vote yet.

This is framing raerae.  She didn't want to lynch mail-mi because she wanted him to be able to play for longer because he was a newbie.  But then sudgy said that either I or liopoil were the scummiest.  Framing raerae, staying on his former suspicions of liopoil and I, but still not voting.  I'm not ready to vote either, especially not after we just lynched mail-mi and Jimm got nightkilled.  But still, I think this is scummy.
I suppose I would have a reason to kill Jimm, but many people voted for me, and were still suspicious of me after I went down from L-1, so I would have reason to kill many people.  Jimm was actually the one who took me down from L-1, so why would I want to kill him, then?  Also, any scum would have a reason to kill Jimm, as he was making good reads, and pretty much everyone had a town read on him.  I agree, the mafia might have killed him because he was a vet, but because they wanted to get a experienced person out of the game, not just so newbies could play.  Of course, if it was so newbies could play, I think it would be, again, so not as experienced people could try to figure out who's scum, and, being not as experienced, fail.  So, isn't this framing me, too?  Now sudgy is my highest scum read, but as I said above, I'm not ready to vote yet.

[liopoil]

any scum would have a reason to kill Jimm, as he was making good reads

How do you know that his reads were good?

here's a reason scum might kill jimmmmm: maybe they thought he was a PR or something?

[EFHW]

here's a reason scum might kill jimmmmm: maybe they thought he was a PR or something?

I'm wondering if there was something in his posts a vet mafia might have recognized as indicating a power role. 

[Robz888]

I think he was just killed for being the most pro town. He offered reads, discussed theory, and kept the convo going.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi, (EFHW)

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

From looking at this I think the more important wagon is actually the one on sudgy, there are 2 confirmed town, sudgy was at L-1 for a little while, I know I'm town which means regardless of efhw's alignment sudgy has to be scum. There is no reason one and possibly two scum had the chance to hammer sudgy but decided not to. Efhw jumping off wagon once it was at L-1 is less scummy than I first thought because it was her that brought sudgy to L-1, had she been on the wagon for a while it would have been very scummy but it instead looks like good town play.

can you explain more how you get to the conclusion that sudgy has to be scum (italicized)?

[EFHW]

A reason not to hammer sudgy immediately would have been that quick-hammering is suspicious.

[raerae]

From looking at this I think the more important wagon is actually the one on sudgy, there are 2 confirmed town, sudgy was at L-1 for a little while, I know I'm town which means regardless of efhw's alignment sudgy has to be scum. There is no reason one and possibly two scum had the chance to hammer sudgy but decided not to. Efhw jumping off wagon once it was at L-1 is less scummy than I first thought because it was her that brought sudgy to L-1, had she been on the wagon for a while it would have been very scummy but it instead looks like good town play.

It also suprised me that raerae was on robz for every wagon, this combined with the fact that I already felt her reads were weaker than I excpected looks alot like scum trying not to make waves.

These are the two things that stand out to me the most and I am going to vote: sudgy

I invite everyone to further analyze the wagons and express opinions.

Yeah, I think EFHW questioned this already but how are you positive sudgy is scum?  I don't see the logic here.

Me being on robz, if you were following day one at all, should not have come as a surprise.  I was literally on him from RVS.  Vocally calling him out and voting for him for the remainder of the day after my initial unvote because people got too excited about RVS voting.  You, on the other hand, protected him (from me) all day saying you had a townread on him...which you never explained...care to now?  So, explain this to me, if I was most vocal about voting robz for lurking and you were most vocal about not lynching robz for lurking, how did you not realize I was on him all day?  Seems a bit like somebody is trying to cast a bit of a shadow on me...again...

What makes my reads weak?  I know I didn't give a ton of them but the ones I did give I defended vehemently.

[raerae]

any scum would have a reason to kill Jimm, as he was making good reads

How do you know that his reads were good?

here's a reason scum might kill jimmmmm: maybe they thought he was a PR or something?

That's just what I was thinking.  He wasn't being overly vocal, seemed to almost be cautious about picking sides and giving reads, I felt something was off but didn't have anything solid to go on so just kept that tucked away in my notes to see how it developed.  That makes me think somebody who has played with him before is scum and saw this as a sign of him having a PR. 

[EFHW]

sudgy, you're coming across as desperately diverting attention to everyone but yourself. kooshie in your first post, then robz, now mcmc. You also mentioned me in your first post for some reason. (first real post, not the one where you said that you were about to post something)

Feedback from one mafia to another?

[EFHW]

Can mafia talk to each other during the day or just at night?

[ashersky]

Can mafia talk to each other during the day or just at night?

No one can talk privately during the day.  Mafia are able to talk to each other at night.

[sudgy]

To the people who say I was jumping around with accusations: I mentioned liopoil and kooshie because that was just from the previous day.  Now I'm starting to think of robz/mcmc as a scumteam, for a few reasons:

1. They both had a bit of scumminess from their recent posts (I mentioned this already).
2. mcmc agreed with robz's vote just now.
3. mcmc said he had a town read on robz for reasons he couldn't explain.  But what if he doesn't have a reason? (as raerae mentioned)

[mcmcsalot]

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.

[mcmcsalot]

@raerae,

1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

2) my post referring to you is not trumped up, in fact I find you a bit scummy for how defensive you have been of my criticism but I think that's just you. All I have said is your reads were weaker than I expected and I was surprised about you being on robz the whole day, I just didn't realize you never moved your vote from him. Also if you care to I ask you to think back to ZMIX where I not just cast suspicion on you but found you somewhat scummy and took advantage of your snarky jokey play style(which I love btw) and pushed until you were mislynched. For the newbies I was scum in that game. This game I have found you somewhat scummy because I think you often have stronger stances than lets lynch the lurker, however I have always found others more scummy than you and would not vote for you with the current evidence.

[mcmcsalot]

A few very recent things have made me change my mind...

I noticed Robz888 wasn't voting for either of the first two.  This could be attributed to his lurkiness, maybe he didn't notice until too late.  And then when he saw mail-mi at L-1, he lynched him.  (This is all hypothetical, of course.)

Also, just saying "Yikes" seems scummy to me.  Maybe trying to make it seem like he's empathetic with the town.

Last, he instantly accused me when I just was trying to see who might want to kill Jimmmmm.  He saw something that seemed a bit scummy, and jumped for it.

From this, I'm going to Vote: Robz888

To the people who say I was jumping around with accusations: I mentioned liopoil and kooshie because that was just from the previous day.  Now I'm starting to think of robz/mcmc as a scumteam, for a few reasons:

1. They both had a bit of scumminess from their recent posts (I mentioned this already).
2. mcmc agreed with robz's vote just now.
3. mcmc said he had a town read on robz for reasons he couldn't explain.  But what if he doesn't have a reason? (as raerae mentioned)

Okay liopoil touched on this but I want to explain so that the newbies can fix it.
If you are defending yourself from a case made against you, you want to make sure you keep the post about why you are town, not why the people who accused you are scum. If you are makin a case on someone make sure you keep it about things they have done that are scummy.
In your posts above, you make a case on robz but then add that he is scummy because he found you scummy for bad reasons. The second post is a bit more what I'm talking about, you are defending the accusation that your jumping around, but instead you mainly mention why you find me an robz scummy, the two people voting for you. I noticed efhw do this once, finding people scummy because they find you scummy is horrible, if you actually find robz or I scummy make the case regardless of our voting for you.

[mcmcsalot]

Lastly I want to point out I find sudgy scummy for the reasons I have explained about the wagon on him as well as how he acted on D1, I do not find him scummy for the reason robz gave.

[EFHW]

...  instead you mainly mention why you find me an robz scummy, the two people voting for you. I noticed efhw do this once, finding people scummy because they find you scummy is horrible, if you actually find robz or I scummy make the case regardless of our voting for you.

Really?  When?

[mcmcsalot]

This was after I made a few points about you. While I understand that someone making a bad case or making a huge case out of something tiny is scummy, making me your highest scum read simply because you don't think my reads on you are correct is extremely scummy in itself.

mcmcsalot:  Been kind of hostile towards me, each time with logical flaws.  Like he's picking an obvious (LOL) townie to target, if you ask me!  My scummiest read.

You correct it almost immediately which is great and the reason I never mention it, as I said to sudgy I think this is largely a newbie thing and not that big a deal.

Clarification -- I was inaccurate when I said Robz had been more lurky than Kooshie, if lurky means more posts.  I looked back and in fact I voted for him because he hadn't voted yet.  A different kind of lurking - being there but standing back. AND, in fact that was mostly an RVS vote, of both kinds, trying to get a reaction. 

So, I'll reduce my scum read on mcmc, since I was misleading in the answer I gave back then.

You later make a post saying you find me towny, again this change from scummiest to towny would be construed as scum flip flopping on someone. But as I have said I don't find either of you scummy for this as I think it is very much a newbie trait and I just wanted to help.

[EFHW]

You later make a post saying you find me towny, again this change from scummiest to towny would be construed as scum flip flopping on someone. But as I have said I don't find either of you scummy for this as I think it is very much a newbie trait and I just wanted to help.

Also, I had a concrete reason for finding you towny later on, in reaction to a post you had just made.  So it's not flip-flopping.  I still read you as town, now.

My initial reading of you as scummy was not because you voted for me.  It was because your reasoning seemed flawed.  When I saw it wasn't as flawed as I thought, I backed off.

[sudgy]

mcmc, I was posting about you and robz being scum because that was the only other (simple) alternative to me being scum.  Also, I wasn't just saying that you're scum because you voted for me, I also was giving other reasons as well.  Also, another thing I noticed, was that you were voting on every single wagon...

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, I was posting about you and robz being scum because that was the only other (simple) alternative to me being scum.  Also, I wasn't just saying that you're scum because you voted for me, I also was giving other reasons as well.  Also, another thing I noticed, was that you were voting on every single wagon...

I understand it was just meant as advice because immediately being suspicious of the people that have accused you looks very scummy. I understand if you truly believe me and robz are scum nothing should stop you from making your case, just try to make it clear it is a case you are making independent of our votes on you.

To address me being on each wagon, I had legitimate scum reads on kooshie and you which explain my being on those wagons, Jimm was also on both those wagons. It was helpful as he said because it forced people to make clear stances and can now be examined. The mail-mi lynch was ultimately a lynch based on lurking which I supported more than the lynch on robz lurking because as I have now explained I found robz towny.

While you are still my top scum read I like that you actually looked at the wagons and made some analysis, I urge the remaining player to please say something about the wagons and what you think about it.

[Robz888]

Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.

[Kooshie]

If...

Sudgy=scum, then, like robz said, is "caught and flailing."
Sudgy=town, then he said some wrong things and put up a not so great defense.  Sudgy is a vet, right?  Would a vet be like that?  I mean, wouldn't a vet be able to think of and put up a better defense as town?

With all this growing evidence(mostly from mcmc), my scum read on Sudgy has been growing, too.  But I want to hear more from everybody...except mcmc, he has said a lot already.  This includes myself, I'll try to look things over again, and see if I can say something that hasn't already been said.

[Robz888]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

[Kooshie]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

[Robz888]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

He's a newbie.

I have played all the games.

Jimm and raerae have been around for several games. Mcmcsalot too.

Everyone else is a newbie.

[EFHW]

Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.

Can you elaborate?

[sudgy]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?

[Kooshie]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?

Do you mean in this game, or the everyday use for it?

[raerae]

1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

My heat is apparently out (and I live in a place where heat is desperately required at this time of year) so I'm only addressing this while try to fix that and may not be around much tonight after this post.

Robz' first vote was the hammer on mail-mi so that bit of your excuse isn't a reason why you could have seen robz as town.  He also didn't present ANY cases D1.  He also only asked one question:

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

And his first posts (basically all his D1 posts) in this game were theory talk.  He didn't engage anybody in conversation past that.  Please quote or give me post numbers because I'm not finding any of this in D1.

[sudgy]

Sudgy is NOT a vet.

Is he a newbie, then?  I'm confused about the terms.

I've played a fair bit irl, but never on a forum.  And I'm finding forum mafia surprisingly different than it is irl.

Also, what does flailing mean?

Do you mean in this game, or the everyday use for it?

In the game.

1) my town read on robz comes from something I have only seen him do as town, I'm extremely unhappy revealing this but I will because it has been talked about enough that I am not confident using it in future games. When robz is town he has a scum hunting strategy where he makes a bad case followed by a vote, he then waits to see who will jump on the case, that will more often be scum jumping on the chance to lynch town. This is also why robz is mislynched as town often, people notice the bad case which ends up looking scummier than anything else. Also as town robz asks people there opinion often and overall plays reactive instead of proactive. His original posts of this game were exactly that.

My heat is apparently out (and I live in a place where heat is desperately required at this time of year) so I'm only addressing this while try to fix that and may not be around much tonight after this post.

Robz' first vote was the hammer on mail-mi so that bit of your excuse isn't a reason why you could have seen robz as town.  He also didn't present ANY cases D1.  He also only asked one question:

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

And his first posts (basically all his D1 posts) in this game were theory talk.  He didn't engage anybody in conversation past that.  Please quote or give me post numbers because I'm not finding any of this in D1.

He did do it today.  But of course mcmc was saying this yesterday too.

[Kooshie]

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.

I agree.  But before when you said that about the wagons, and how it wasn't scummy for efhw to jump off the wagons, I'm not all that sure about that.  It is possible that efhw was scum, and she put him at L-1 because being a newbie, didn't realize that he only needed one more vote to lynch him, and joined in the first place to follow town?  Or, the opposite, was thinking ahead and joined to, again, go with the crowd, but seeing that people would interpret that as you did if she jumped off before anyone could hammer, left the wagon.  This is just an idea, but it's something to think about.

[sudgy]

Yes my previous town read of robz is slipping quickly, though if were going to lynch a lurker I would rather mail-mi because I find his interactions scummier and I thin his flip will b more valuable.

I know this was a while ago, but you have been switching back and forth with your read on robz.  And, when you say he's acting more scummy, you turn the conversation, vote for a VT and bring others along with you.  While I still see Robz as scum, all this I'm seeing with you is enough to make me Vote: mcmcsalot.

[EFHW]

I'd like to go over what makes a post/action seem scummy.  I'll list the things I've gleaned so far, and then hopefully others can fill in the picture.

Being a skillful goon:

1.  Making a case on a townie with lots of certainty and "evidence" in the hopes of causing a mislynch. 
    These arguments tend to inflate the importance of trivial matters and purposely misinterpret what is said.

2.  Trying to seem like town by going along with wagons.

3.  Managing to get off wagons aimed at fellow scum.

4.  Giving good town advice once in awhile to gain town-cred.

5.  Hammering a mislynch after waiting long enough to not seem suspicious.

Being an unskillful goon:

1.  Making arguments against townies that don't make sense or are obviously thin.

2.  Quick-hammering a mislynch.

3.  Jumping around from accusation to accusation because you can't decide what is the towniest position to take.

What have I missed?
 

[mcmcsalot]

THese are the two quotes of robz that made me believe he is town.

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

I sure have a lot of votes. Why is this? Explain yourselves.

I can't yet tell the new people apart from one another.

Sure its not a lot but out of everything he has posted which is little, this made me lean town, this form of not defending himself and simply posing questions is a somewhat reliable indicator of town!robz.

Lurking is not an indicator of robz being scum or town and he was busy for a very long time, the post sudgy is referring to is the only mention I ever make of having a less than town read on robz, and it is because he was lurking to the extent that I could no longer keep a town read on him. This is strange because while he had still done nothing to make me think he is scum, his lurking was enough to make my town read begin to slip away. He is back now and posting and I hope he continues to contribute, slipping back into lurking would be very scummy at this point.

So I really don't know what you are voting me over, am I correct in thinking you are voting because I said I had a town read on robz and later said it was slipping away. I think you are, just as you did with robz finding me scummy simply because I find you scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay I'm sorry I exaggerated, sudgy does not have to been scum, I just find it highly unlikely that town had 3 town members on him and scum didnt push the lynch through, scum loves jumping on wagons created by town. If sudgy is scum however it would make sense that his partner would stay off the lynch and try and not let it go through.

I agree.  But before when you said that about the wagons, and how it wasn't scummy for efhw to jump off the wagons, I'm not all that sure about that.  It is possible that efhw was scum, and she put him at L-1 because being a newbie, didn't realize that he only needed one more vote to lynch him, and joined in the first place to follow town?  Or, the opposite, was thinking ahead and joined to, again, go with the crowd, but seeing that people would interpret that as you did if she jumped off before anyone could hammer, left the wagon.  This is just an idea, but it's something to think about.

this is something I have gone back and forth on, I lean toward this being town!efhw not wanting to let scum hammer, it is possible she is scum but she has been helpful D2 as well, because of these things I am now leaning town on efhw

[EFHW]

Alright, I decided to re-read Jimmmmm to try to see if there was any reason someone would want to kill him.

The only people he accused were me and Kooshie.  I obviously think I'm town and that would leave kooshie as the only person with a reason to kill him.  Although I don't know if Kooshie is scum, so it probably was someone's random kill (or someone wanted to kill a vet so newbies could play longer).

I'm still slightly suspicious of both liopoil and kooshie, but am not going to vote yet.

This is a manufactured defense of you killing Jimm.

Vote: sudgy

Sudgy is caught, flailing scum.

Robz seems very certain about Sudgy, and his veteran status makes it tempting to go along.  BUT he may be trying to use his vet-cred to cause a mislynch.  Assume he is misleading us.  Then, after the mislynch followe by a NK, there would be 3 town and 2 scum.  He would be revealed as definitely scum because he misled us about Sudgy.  We lynch him, the other scum NK's someone, and there are 2 town and 1 scum.  Is it possible or likely for town to win in that position?  It would be worth his while to go down with Sudgy if it makes town lose.

[liopoil]

town should have a 50-50 chance of wining in this position, I believe.

[mcmcsalot]

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

[Kooshie]

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

why do you keep on putting ! after scum or town?

[EFHW]

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

The thing is, if Sudgy is scum then he is kind of unskillful scum (sorry Sudgy). 

Robz has just made flat-out statements without any argument to support them.  As a newbie, I'd like his reasons spelled out so I can understand how he is seeing things.

[Kooshie]

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

The thing is, if Sudgy is scum then he is kind of unskillful scum (sorry Sudgy). 

Robz has just made flat-out statements without any argument to support them.  As a newbie, I'd like his reasons spelled out so I can understand how he is seeing things.

Me, too. Is this usual Robz behavior?

[EFHW]

We have everyone on except Liopoil

[sudgy]

THese are the two quotes of robz that made me believe he is town.

Also, having suspicions of a Robz-Raerae Mafia team.

You know, I'm kind of starting to think that too...  I won't change my vote for now, but I'll keep this in mind...

Here's a good exercise: What evidence do you have for this?

I sure have a lot of votes. Why is this? Explain yourselves.

I can't yet tell the new people apart from one another.

Sure its not a lot but out of everything he has posted which is little, this made me lean town, this form of not defending himself and simply posing questions is a somewhat reliable indicator of town!robz.

You said that his towniness came from his doing what he usually does, making a bad case and voting.  He didn't make a bad case either time (just asked a question) and he didn't vote at all.

So I really don't know what you are voting me over, am I correct in thinking you are voting because I said I had a town read on robz and later said it was slipping away. I think you are, just as you did with robz finding me scummy simply because I find you scummy.

My main reasons for voting for you are:

1. Your saying the reasons for thinking Robz is town when the reason didn't really fit his actions (I know you countered it, but I still think this is the case)
2. You being on the wagon every time
3. You diverting attention from Robz and starting the lynch towards mail-mi

I mentioned you saying you were losing your town read on robz because after that you voted for mail-mi.

Also, another idea I had (it may not be right, though) is that if mcmc and robz are mafia, mcmc could have told robz to make a shallow accusation to use his reasoning for robz being town.  Then robz voted for me right away.

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

The thing is, if Sudgy is scum then he is kind of unskillful scum (sorry Sudgy). 

Robz has just made flat-out statements without any argument to support them.  As a newbie, I'd like his reasons spelled out so I can understand how he is seeing things.

Me, too. Is this usual Robz behavior?

mcmc says it is.

[raerae]

Robz isn't being the town Robz I know and mcmc's defense of him his flimsy at best.  Mcmc is being the scum mcmc I remember from blitz.  He's taking certain things people say and skewing them slightly so they sound scummy.  This tactic relies on town reading his post and his take on it instead of going back and reading for themselves.

Vote: mcmcsalot

[mcmcsalot]

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

why do you keep on putting ! after scum or town?

Its just something that the vets do and I started doing, I think the use for it is to clarify that scum!robz means the scenario where robz is scum, not I am saying robz is scum.

Seeing as I think sudgy is scum, for the many reasons I have stated, I think it is irrelevant whether or not scum!robz would push a mislynch on town!sudgy. But if that were the case, as a general rule one for one trades(one town lynch followed by one scum lynch) are good for town and bad for scum.

The thing is, if Sudgy is scum then he is kind of unskillful scum (sorry Sudgy). 

Robz has just made flat-out statements without any argument to support them.  As a newbie, I'd like his reasons spelled out so I can understand how he is seeing things.

Me, too. Is this usual Robz behavior?

First off, all scum is unskillful once they are caught, saying they can't be scum because that would make them dumb is never a good reason. I have seen vets go out of there way to look like obvious scum so that people will then be less suspicious of them.

Secondly, this one liner play from robz is something I have seen but have no idea what it means other than the fact that it is unhelpful and agravating. I would also like him to back up what he is saying about sudgy. Do you find him scummy for different reasons than the ones I have stated?

(Added after reading sudgy's reply)
I said my town read on him came from the fact that he lays low as town and tries to trap scum, this involves making a bad case and seeing who jumps on it, this also involves asking alot of questions and withholding his own reads.

I feel I have responded to each one of your point and I will again, I would like you to tell me if you think I'm flat out wrong with my defense or I am missing your point or you simply still find me scummy.
1. I have just answered this above, though this is not what you originally said, you first accused me of flip flopping my read on robz and you now say I just have a reason that isn't there. Also I would like to add this was a read from yesterday that was brought up today because raerae asked me to clarify, I do not emphatically believe robz is town he is not even among my top town reads.
2. I do not see why being on ever wagon is scummy please elaborate, jimm was also on the first too wagons of the day and stated support for the mail-mi lynch and he was town. I have made strong stances and have reasons for being on each of those wagons.
3. I said this yesterday and will repeat it, mail-mi was a much more informative lynch and was lurking just as much as robz and I had a reason, however small to believe robz was town.

[mcmcsalot]

Robz isn't being the town Robz I know and mcmc's defense of him his flimsy at best.  Mcmc is being the scum mcmc I remember from blitz.  He's taking certain things people say and skewing them slightly so they sound scummy.  This tactic relies on town reading his post and his take on it instead of going back and reading for themselves.

Vote: mcmcsalot

I have provided direct quotes to back up almost all of my points, my scum read on sudgy is based off of the analysis of all of the three major wagons we had in D1. I also provided a post containing all of those and urged everyone to make some analysis of it, I have constantly urged other players to add there own insight and thought. On D1 I found efhw followed by kooshie followed by sudgy scummy and backed down from all of them when I did not find the cases including the cases I made to be strong enough to lynch and finally decided on a lynch on a lurker.

How is this skewing things so they sound scummy, in blitz I tunneled you until you were mislynched D1...

[sudgy]

I can tell it's pointless giving points to counter another person's point countering my own point, so I won't.  I'll just say that you're changing your read on robz wasn't one of the big things against you.  I'm saying it was more of a "I'll agree with you guys to make you think I'm town but we can't lynch him because he's my mafia buddy."

Also, another big reason I forgot to mention earlier is that you and EFHW were the only people who we don't know who they were on my wagon.  I'm still thinking Robz is the other mafia instead of EFHW, though.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.2:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae

Not Voting (3): EFHW, Kooshie, liopoil

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 will end at 7:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 17.

[EFHW]

VOTE: Robz888 until we hear something substantial from him to change my mind.

[EFHW]

Been reading Robz in some finished games. What I found is that
1. He tends to use games where he is town to get a "scummyish" reputation, so when he is scum it is less apparent. 
2. He also purposely varies his participation as town and scum so that town can't identify his role that way.
3. He thinks it's terrible for a scum player to abandon his partner by not participating.

SO -- Here is my question.  Why has mcmc not shared this information with us, and instead gave a completely unsubstantiated reason for why he thinks Robz is town (that he makes accusations to see who sheeps along)

[liopoil]

Vote: Robz888

I find his certainty about sudgy rather scummy. I would not be surprised by a mcmc-robz scumteam trying to get an easy misslynch of sudgy. I am voting robz instead of mcmc because robz is saying less, and I got a towny feel from mcmc's posts in D1.

[Robz888]

Been reading Robz in some finished games. What I found is that
1. He tends to use games where he is town to get a "scummyish" reputation, so when he is scum it is less apparent. 
2. He also purposely varies his participation as town and scum so that town can't identify his role that way.
3. He thinks it's terrible for a scum player to abandon his partner by not participating.

SO -- Here is my question.  Why has mcmc not shared this information with us, and instead gave a completely unsubstantiated reason for why he thinks Robz is town (that he makes accusations to see who sheeps along)

Mcmc only started playing recently; you may actually be better informed on how play than he is. And I don't disagree with you.

Mainly, my participation here has been impacted by the fact that I've found it much harder to get into this game than others, since I don't really know any of you.

But I do think sudgy has sort of been all over the place, jumping at shadows. So that's the basis of my suspicion.

[Robz888]

And I find raerae scummy for defending sudgy.

Also, sudgy's opening post today was SO staged.

[mcmcsalot]

Been reading Robz in some finished games. What I found is that
1. He tends to use games where he is town to get a "scummyish" reputation, so when he is scum it is less apparent. 
2. He also purposely varies his participation as town and scum so that town can't identify his role that way.
3. He thinks it's terrible for a scum player to abandon his partner by not participating.

SO -- Here is my question.  Why has mcmc not shared this information with us, and instead gave a completely unsubstantiated reason for why he thinks Robz is town (that he makes accusations to see who sheeps along)

Because the three things you have mentioned don't help understand robz alignment, the things you mention are things robz does on purpose to make it hard to tell when hes scum. Also this was said earlier, robz is my brother and I believe I can read him well, the thing I pointed out earlier is something that I felt he does as town unknowingly. I reiterate though all this talk about robz being town is from something he did early in day one, I don't want to lynch him today because I find sudgy much scummier but robz is far from my top town read.

[Robz888]

I do think mcmc reads me well, for what it's worth.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 2.3:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (2): EFHW, liopoil

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 will end at 7:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 17.

[sudgy]

And I find raerae scummy for defending sudgy.

Also, sudgy's opening post today was SO staged.

I just thought, "I'll do a re-read of Jimmmmm and post about it."  Afterwards, "That didn't give me too much.  Oh well."

Vote: Robz888

I find his certainty about sudgy rather scummy. I would not be surprised by a mcmc-robz scumteam trying to get an easy misslynch of sudgy. I am voting robz instead of mcmc because robz is saying less, and I got a towny feel from mcmc's posts in D1.

His certainty could be what mcmc said (not quoted exactly), that he "makes a bad case followed by a vote to see how people react."  I did this too at the beginning of the first day.

Also, I got a "towny feel" from mcmc as well at D1, but even then I felt it was a bit too towny (I mentioned that once).  Like he was working to feel towny.

[EFHW]

mcmc was in both of the games I read.  In one, Robz was scum, in the other town.  I didn't have to infer any of those comments - they were all stated clearly by different people. 

mcmc says my points don't help us determine if Robz is scum.  But actually, they do.  What I observed points to Robz as town and mcmc as not.  But, @Robz, most of us are strangers to each other, too, and we are participating.

mcmc's reasoning about Sugdy's wagon also applies to him - I know I'm town, so he could be the scum on that wagon, instead of assuming there was an all-town wagon on a mafia.

Sudgy has been all over the place.  Can someone please explain why scum would act that way?

[EFHW]

I'm reposting this because I think any who is town would want to help refine it.

I'd like to go over what makes a post/action seem scummy.  I'll list the things I've gleaned so far, and then hopefully others can fill in the picture.

Being a skillful goon:

1.  Making a case on a townie with lots of certainty and "evidence" in the hopes of causing a mislynch. 
    These arguments tend to inflate the importance of trivial matters and purposely misinterpret what is said.

2.  Trying to seem like town by going along with wagons.

3.  Managing to get off wagons aimed at fellow scum.

4.  Giving good town advice once in awhile to gain town-cred.

5.  Hammering a mislynch after waiting long enough to not seem suspicious.

Being an unskillful goon:

1.  Making arguments against townies that don't make sense or are obviously thin.

2.  Quick-hammering a mislynch.

3.  Jumping around from accusation to accusation because you can't decide what is the towniest position to take.

What have I missed?
 

[Robz888]

mcmc was in both of the games I read.  In one, Robz was scum, in the other town.  I didn't have to infer any of those comments - they were all stated clearly by different people. 

mcmc says my points don't help us determine if Robz is scum.  But actually, they do.  What I observed points to Robz as town and mcmc as not.  But, @Robz, most of us are strangers to each other, too, and we are participating.

mcmc's reasoning about Sugdy's wagon also applies to him - I know I'm town, so he could be the scum on that wagon, instead of assuming there was an all-town wagon on a mafia.

Sudgy has been all over the place.  Can someone please explain why scum would act that way?

'

Frustration, trying to find an alternate lynch, any lynch, that sticks.

[liopoil]

when scum is under pressure they really want to redirect the attention to somebody else.

here's mcmc's reasoning I think:

Yesterday it took 5 to lynch, and there are two scum. Jimmmmm and mail-mi are both town, and were voting sudgy. at one point, efhw and mcmc were both voting sudgy as well. This means that he was at L-1. He's saying that there are only two possible explanations for sudgy not being hammered:

a) both mcmc and efhw are scum. mcmc says that he knows this isn't the case, because he knows he is town. The same is true for EFHW.

b) sudgy is scum.

if neither A or B are true than mcmc says that there would therefore have been at least one scum that wasn't on the wagon who could have hammered, but didn't. mcmc says that he doesn't believe this would happen. therefore he concludes that one of A or B must be true. Mcmc says he knows that A is not true, and so he concludes that B is true. EFHW should conclude the same if she is town and also thinks that scum would hammer in this situation.

[EFHW]

@Liopoil - Since you aren't voting Sudgy, are you saying you think both mcmc and I are scum?  Or do you think if one scum was on the town!Sudgy wagon and the other wasn't, the one not on would still not hammer? 

Put another way, why didn't you hammer

[liopoil]

I feel both of you being scum is a real possibility at least, and that not hammering could be a valid strategy as scum.

[sudgy]

when scum is under pressure they really want to redirect the attention to somebody else.

here's mcmc's reasoning I think:

Yesterday it took 5 to lynch, and there are two scum. Jimmmmm and mail-mi are both town, and were voting sudgy. at one point, efhw and mcmc were both voting sudgy as well. This means that he was at L-1. He's saying that there are only two possible explanations for sudgy not being hammered:

a) both mcmc and efhw are scum. mcmc says that he knows this isn't the case, because he knows he is town. The same is true for EFHW.

b) sudgy is scum.

if neither A or B are true than mcmc says that there would therefore have been at least one scum that wasn't on the wagon who could have hammered, but didn't. mcmc says that he doesn't believe this would happen. therefore he concludes that one of A or B must be true. Mcmc says he knows that A is not true, and so he concludes that B is true. EFHW should conclude the same if she is town and also thinks that scum would hammer in this situation.

Still, it would be suspicious for scum to hammer early (usually), and Robz wasn't doing much anyway.  I'm thinking either Robz didn't want to yet/didn't notice (he wasn't doing much anyway).

[sudgy]

I feel both of you being scum is a real possibility at least, and that not hammering could be a valid strategy as scum.

I think EFHW is town because she got off the wagon.  Scum wouldn't do that (unless they were trying to make me think as I am now).  Also, nothing she's said has been particularly scummy to me.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.4:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (2): EFHW, liopoil

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 will end at 7:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 17.

[mcmcsalot]

Sudgy, you are still voting for me when you have said I was towny D1, both you and raerae have found me scummy for my defense(which I say again was made D1) of robz . It seems like you find robz more scummy than me, you voted for him before you voted me, do you find me or robz scummier?

[sudgy]

Sudgy, you are still voting for me when you have said I was towny D1, both you and raerae have found me scummy for my defense(which I say again was made D1) of robz . It seems like you find robz more scummy than me, you voted for him before you voted me, do you find me or robz scummier?

In D1 I said you seemed a bit too suspiciously towny.  I find you just a slight bit more scummy than Robz, but you're both close.

[mcmcsalot]

So robz play this day has been off to me, he came out hard on sudgy with very little reasoning, something I don't find helpfull as opposed to the way I laid my case out on him. Bussing properly is something that can turn a game around completely for a scum team and I think what robz is doing looks like veteran scum doing just that. I think he saw what I did and knew sudgy would come under fire today, they are very possibly the scum team. Also sudgy's reluctance to vote robz instead of me confirms this, I think a newbie would not be as comfortable bussing and would much rather push a lynch on me than his scum mate.

I still think raerae is also a good match for a scum partner with sudgy,

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

This quote specifically looks like an easy way for raerae to not only have a town read on her partner but make excuses for his scummy play.

This is my opinion and I think sudgy would be the best lynch because he is most likely scum to me but we do not lose if we lynch town today so I am willing to lynch one of the other two if people prefer.

[sudgy]

So robz play this day has been off to me, he came out hard on sudgy with very little reasoning, something I don't find helpfull as opposed to the way I laid my case out on him. Bussing properly is something that can turn a game around completely for a scum team and I think what robz is doing looks like veteran scum doing just that.

You could be doing the same thing obviously...

[raerae]

And I find raerae scummy for defending sudgy.

Also, sudgy's opening post today was SO staged.

For defending him period or the way I defended him or the actual reasoning behind my defense?  That was a super vague reason to find me scummy.

[raerae]

Sudgy, you are still voting for me when you have said I was towny D1, both you and raerae have found me scummy for my defense(which I say again was made D1) of robz . It seems like you find robz more scummy than me, you voted for him before you voted me, do you find me or robz scummier?

False.  I found you scummy for not explaining your townread on him.  It's also convenient that your read on him just happened to be all the things he did in his first couple posts of D2 and basically nothing he did D1.

I also find you scummy for doing things like this: Taking a truth and twisting it to cast that person in a scummy light.  Por ejemplo, I said my reads list wasn't "as helpful" as I wanted it to be and you took that, did your scummagic, and portrayed it like I said it "wasn't helpful."  I can find the quote if anybody is interested.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.3:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (2): EFHW, liopoil

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Notice that Robz and mcmc are both on sudgy, while everyone else is on either Robz or mcmc.  I think we have a Robz/mcmc team here.

[mcmcsalot]

These are the two posts I made about you being scummy.

Reads, not as helpful as I was hoping, time to do some reading.

EFHW - Sounds like our personalities are going to clash until she figures out I'm just sassy and not actually upset at anything, seems like she's reasonably thinking things through though, I look forward to reading more from her

Jimmmmm - Null, his post count is almost as high as mine but I don't remember anything in particular he's discussed, will have to reread

Kooshie - seems a little shady for the defensiveness, eager to please, lurking until called out, seems to be looking for other people to tell her what to have reads on, giving her a little more wiggle room for being new though, not ready to vote yet

liopoil - seems helpful with pushing things along, not real sure yet

mail-mi - needs to talk more, I don't have a read yet

mcmcsalot - trying to push the day along (in a good way), getting reads out, not being overly aggressive, seems towny

Robz888 - doesn't seem interested/invested in this game yet, was posting elsewhere on Friday but didn't post here other than one post super early in th AM, waiting to read until he posts more

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

So I was doing my reread of raerae, she has pushed hard against lurkers this whole game infact after this post all she has commented on is robz lurking. While I agree with robz needing to post more you also need to post more. In this your big post with reads you say this isn't going to be helpful and then you give null reads on just about everyone. You mention you need to read more on people, this sounds to me like potential scum pushing for lurkers and not giving any real reads.

This contains a quote of you and i underlined point in question

@raerae,

2) my post referring to you is not trumped up, in fact I find you a bit scummy for how defensive you have been of my criticism but I think that's just you. All I have said is your reads were weaker than I expected and I was surprised about you being on robz the whole day, I just didn't realize you never moved your vote from him. Also if you care to I ask you to think back to ZMIX where I not just cast suspicion on you but found you somewhat scummy and took advantage of your snarky jokey play style(which I love btw) and pushed until you were mislynched. For the newbies I was scum in that game. This game I have found you somewhat scummy because I think you often have stronger stances than lets lynch the lurker, however I have always found others more scummy than you and would not vote for you with the current evidence.

Here is the second quote again I underlined the part in question. I have always said I think your reads are weaker and less helpfull than I expected, never that they were useless. If either of us is taking things out of context its you.


@EFHW, raerae and sudgy are both on my, I think they are the scum team. However I think robz has a possibility of being sudgy's scummate as well. If you all truly think robz is scum I am willing to lynch him instead of sudgy but I feel very strongly sudgy is scum.

@raerae, I explained my town read once you asked, I didn't want to say it because I think robz would take it and run with it and I would no longer be able to read him, I do not think his day 2 play has been town!robz.

[Robz888]

We do NOT have a Robz/mcmc team!

[sudgy]

And I find raerae scummy for defending sudgy.

Also, sudgy's opening post today was SO staged.

For defending him period or the way I defended him or the actual reasoning behind my defense?  That was a super vague reason to find me scummy.

It's for defending someone he thinks is scum.

Also, I'm pretty certain it's Robz/mcmc.  I'll be fine lynching either one, but I won't throw the hammer if I can until the end of the day.

[Kooshie]

And I find raerae scummy for defending sudgy.

Also, sudgy's opening post today was SO staged.

For defending him period or the way I defended him or the actual reasoning behind my defense?  That was a super vague reason to find me scummy.

It's for defending someone he thinks is scum.

Also, I'm pretty certain it's Robz/mcmc.  I'll be fine lynching either one, but I won't throw the hammer if I can until the end of the day.

Throw the hammer?  Neither of them are at L-1, and you already voted.  What do you mean?

[Kooshie]

We do NOT have a Robz/mcmc team!

Flat-out denying, I think, isn't sufficient.  Please give reasons!

[liopoil]

I'll be fine lynching either one, but I won't throw the hammer if I can until the end of the day.

Throw the hammer?  Neither of them are at L-1, and you already voted.  What do you mean?

well, he can only be voting for one of them. He is referring to a situation in which he COULD throw the hammer. He says that he would wait until nearer the deadline I think.

we have two votes on each of the three main suspects. Kooshie, you are the only one not voting. You have been discussing things without taking a side. FoS. (for what it's worth, Kooshie is still near the top if not at the top of my scumreads. Nobody seems to agree with me so I haven't pushed it, or bothered voting)

[Kooshie]

Vote Count 2.3:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (2): EFHW, liopoil

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Notice that Robz and mcmc are both on sudgy, while everyone else is on either Robz or mcmc.  I think we have a Robz/mcmc team here.

Yes, many people are on Robz or mcmc, but you can't always go with majority.  Any of those people voting could be scum trying to get people to sheep along.  They could be a scum team on the same person, or a scum team on different people.  It would be more strategic to go separately as to not put suspicion upon themselves as a scum team, right?  But then there is also the possibility that if they both go on someone, then people who really have no idea would just go along with them because they have two people voting for one person.  But that would only work if they weren't tied or behind in votes for that person they were voting for.  So for now I would put all that much faith in majority.

However, I do agree that a mcmc/Robz scum team is very likely.  On D1 mcmc saying that he saw something that made Robz strike him as town, and he could read Robz because he was Robz's brother. Then Robz saying things without reasons, and mcmc "regretfully" saying that what he saw was Robz saying things without reasons, which apparently he does when he's town to see who sheeps along.  Then, when I think no one was voting, besides Robz on sudgy, mcmc made that post on sudgy and voted for him.  The strategy I mentioned above, possibly?  Of course, now that they've been on sudgy for so long, they can't go off him because, for one, they would go to themselves, as they are the two people with the most votes apart from sudgy.  Also, like I think mcmc himself said, if you're voting for someone for so long, if you suddenly go off them, it's scummy.

Of course, this is all from the perspective of me as town.  If I were scum, it would be very different.  I think I'm ready to vote now, for either Robz or mcmc.  I'll do Vote: Robz for now, but I might change it to mcmc.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 2.5:

sudgy (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (3): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie [L - 1]

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 will end at 7:00 p.m. on Sunday, February 17.

[Robz888]

I am a Vanilla Townie.

Killing me would be a mistake, albeit an instructive one.

[mcmcsalot]

I am willing to lynch robz as we can afford one more mislynch, it is possible he is scum teamed with sudgy, I think it is much more likely that the team is sudgy raerae and either way I wish it was sudgy we were lynching but if this is the lynch people believe in I will go with it in the hopes I am wrong about robz.
vote: Robz888

[Jorbles]

Thread locked.

[Jorbles]

Day 2 lynch!

sudgy (1): Robz888
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (4): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie, mcmcsalot

Robz888 speaks up. I think I know where ashersky's voice is coming from. He leads everyone down a twisty passage.

"Be careful in the basement. It's easy to get lost down there," said Jorbles.

And get lost everyone did. Deep in ashersky's mansion's basement they wandered for what seemed like hours unable to find their way to ashersky or back up to the main floor.

EFHW tapped liopoil on the shoulder. "I think Robz888 is getting us lost on purpose."

Kooshie and mcmcsalot leaned in. "I think so too," said Kooshie.
mcmcsalot nodded and added, "Let's get him, only someone in the mafia would get us lost on purpose."

While everyone else argued about where to go, the 4 of them snuck up on Robz888.

"I think that we came from over here," said Robz888 distractedly, as they crept up from behind.

"GETHIM!" someone shouted. Robz888 was surprised to find that he was about to be beaten to death. The sickening thump of fists and booted feet pummeled the life out of him.

After it's over everyone digs around in his pockets. Only to find a card to the local Italian restaurant. The local Italian restaurant that raised money for widows and orphans of police officers killed in the line of duty!

Robz888, the Vanilla Townie, has been killed.

ashersky will post deadlines when he gets online.

[Jorbles]

Thread is still locked until D3 starts.

[Jorbles]

On rereading it my flavour doesn't make as much sense as I thought it did.

After it's over everyone digs around in his pockets. Only to find a card to the local Italian restaurant. The local Italian restaurant that raised money for widows and orphans of organized crime police officers killed in the line of duty!

FTFM

(still locked.)

[ashersky]

Night ends Sunday at 4:30 p.m.

[ashersky]

The six remaining dinner guests were exhausted.  They had passed the night in the pitch dark basement, which at least smelled pleasantly of lemon after Jorbles had cleaned up the mess that was the body of townie Robz888.  Few if any of them had slept at all, and most had just huddled in corners, hugging their knees, staring into the dark and wondering who was killing who.

Hey!  Everyone!  Ashersky's voice resonated in the air around them.  You are almost to me.  Robz was close to figuring out where the mafia have stashed me!

A few of the guests started looking around, following the sound of his voice.  One tapped on a wall.  It tapped back.

Yes, I'm in here!  I know there's a secret latch somewhere in that room.  You need to find it...or force the mafia to tell you where it is!  And please, hurry.  The rats look hungrier than I am...

With grim determination, the five of them huddled together to discuss options.  Wait, five?

They looked around again, and quickly stumbled onto a body.  Literally stumbled, because she was crumpled on the floor.  EFHW, the Vanilla Townie, had been shot!

Day 3 has begun!  With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.0:

Not Voting (5): Kooshie, liopiol, mcmcsalot, raerae, sudgy

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[sudgy]

I have a feeling I'm going to get lynched and we'll lose the game, but I'll say what I can.

I completely re-read mcmc when Robz turned up town.  I have a few ideas as to who could be the mafia (I'll post it as scum teams).

mcmc/liopoil: The main reason for this is that they both seem scummy to me, and this post:

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

Here he's trying to divert the attention from liopoil.  It's not much, but it's something.  Also, there is that time where mcmc forgot to put liopoil on his reads.  That easily could have been an accident, but it could be something.

liopoil/kooshie: I know they were accusing each other earlier, but they could have been doing that to try to change our minds.

It could be mcmc/kooshie or raerae could be scum, but I don't see much evidence for either of them.

I'm going to Vote: mcmcsalot for now, but this could get changed at some point.  I'll wait to see what others think.

[sudgy]

Actually, if one of the two scum teams I was thinking of are true, liopoil is no matter what scum.  So Vote: liopoil.

[liopoil]

I feel like the team is almost certainly kooshie-sudgy now. The fact that robz was town means that he honestly was pretty sure that sudgy was scum. And he really has been acting it. Each day he has gotten under pressure and gotten away with it by redirecting everywhere. Already today he anticipates this and voted twice.

[Kooshie]

I have a feeling I'm going to get lynched and we'll lose the game, but I'll say what I can.

I completely re-read mcmc when Robz turned up town.  I have a few ideas as to who could be the mafia (I'll post it as scum teams).

mcmc/liopoil: The main reason for this is that they both seem scummy to me, and this post:

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

Here he's trying to divert the attention from liopoil.  It's not much, but it's something.  Also, there is that time where mcmc forgot to put liopoil on his reads.  That easily could have been an accident, but it could be something.

liopoil/kooshie: I know they were accusing each other earlier, but they could have been doing that to try to change our minds.

It could be mcmc/kooshie or raerae could be scum, but I don't see much evidence for either of them.

I'm going to Vote: mcmcsalot for now, but this could get changed at some point.  I'll wait to see what others think.

I don't think I accused liopoil, back when he was(and technically still is)accusing me.

Actually, if one of the two scum teams I was thinking of are true, liopoil is no matter what scum.  So Vote: liopoil.

Look back above, at your previous post.  These are the teams you proposed: mcmc/liopoil, liopoil/kooshie, and mcmc/kooshie.  You did say that for a mcmc/kooshie team you didn't have much evidence, but you still suggested that as a scum team.  Liopoil is not in a mcmc/kooshie scum team.

[sudgy]

I couldn't remember if you were, I just didn't want to take the time to figure it out when I didn't need to.

The mcmc/kooshie scum team wasn't a serious thought, I was just thinking, "Oh, I might as well mention the complete circle."

[raerae]

Vote: mcmcsalot

Seriously?  Quick hammer, what?  Ten days before deadline?  And in the middle of the day?  And before everybody has had a chance to comment on Robz being at L-1?  And without even announcing intent to hammer?  Really?

[mcmcsalot]

I'm scummy for hammering robz after a long day of people talking and saying I was on a scum team with robz and forcing me to explain a town read I had on robz that was a solid way to tell if robz was town(oh yea he was). But raerae and sudgy aren't scummy for putting me at L-1 hours into the day...

Also raerae you never responded to my post and I would like you to,

These are the two posts I made about you being scummy.

Reads, not as helpful as I was hoping, time to do some reading.

EFHW - Sounds like our personalities are going to clash until she figures out I'm just sassy and not actually upset at anything, seems like she's reasonably thinking things through though, I look forward to reading more from her

Jimmmmm - Null, his post count is almost as high as mine but I don't remember anything in particular he's discussed, will have to reread

Kooshie - seems a little shady for the defensiveness, eager to please, lurking until called out, seems to be looking for other people to tell her what to have reads on, giving her a little more wiggle room for being new though, not ready to vote yet

liopoil - seems helpful with pushing things along, not real sure yet

mail-mi - needs to talk more, I don't have a read yet

mcmcsalot - trying to push the day along (in a good way), getting reads out, not being overly aggressive, seems towny

Robz888 - doesn't seem interested/invested in this game yet, was posting elsewhere on Friday but didn't post here other than one post super early in th AM, waiting to read until he posts more

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

So I was doing my reread of raerae, she has pushed hard against lurkers this whole game infact after this post all she has commented on is robz lurking. While I agree with robz needing to post more you also need to post more. In this your big post with reads you say this isn't going to be helpful and then you give null reads on just about everyone. You mention you need to read more on people, this sounds to me like potential scum pushing for lurkers and not giving any real reads.

This contains a quote of you and i underlined point in question

@raerae,

2) my post referring to you is not trumped up, in fact I find you a bit scummy for how defensive you have been of my criticism but I think that's just you. All I have said is your reads were weaker than I expected and I was surprised about you being on robz the whole day, I just didn't realize you never moved your vote from him. Also if you care to I ask you to think back to ZMIX where I not just cast suspicion on you but found you somewhat scummy and took advantage of your snarky jokey play style(which I love btw) and pushed until you were mislynched. For the newbies I was scum in that game. This game I have found you somewhat scummy because I think you often have stronger stances than lets lynch the lurker, however I have always found others more scummy than you and would not vote for you with the current evidence.

Here is the second quote again I underlined the part in question. I have always said I think your reads are weaker and less helpfull than I expected, never that they were useless. If either of us is taking things out of context its you.


@EFHW, raerae and sudgy are both on my, I think they are the scum team. However I think robz has a possibility of being sudgy's scummate as well. If you all truly think robz is scum I am willing to lynch him instead of sudgy but I feel very strongly sudgy is scum.

@raerae, I explained my town read once you asked, I didn't want to say it because I think robz would take it and run with it and I would no longer be able to read him, I do not think his day 2 play has been town!robz.

I am almost certain sudgy raerae are the scum team, in fact if kooshie or liopoil were scum I would have been hammered by now(unless I am scum I understand but from my perspective I have found the scum team with 100% certainty) I thought this was the scum team yesterday and wanted to lynch sudgy then. I hammered robz because I felt we were getting nowhere positive and with his flip I now know exactly who is scum.

I have made the case on sudgy multiple times, robz a confirmed townie with lots of mafia experience also found sudgy scummy, Jimm the confirmed town cop  and the next most experienced player here started the wagon on sudgy D1 and found him scummy.
vote: sudgy and if I am night killed raerae should be the lynch for tomorow.

[mcmcsalot]

I feel like the team is almost certainly kooshie-sudgy now. The fact that robz was town means that he honestly was pretty sure that sudgy was scum. And he really has been acting it. Each day he has gotten under pressure and gotten away with it by redirecting everywhere. Already today he anticipates this and voted twice.

If kooshie sudgy was the scum team I would be hammered and the game would be over.

[mcmcsalot]

I have a feeling I'm going to get lynched and we'll lose the game, but I'll say what I can.

I completely re-read mcmc when Robz turned up town.  I have a few ideas as to who could be the mafia (I'll post it as scum teams).

mcmc/liopoil: The main reason for this is that they both seem scummy to me, and this post:

And that doesn't mean I don't think it's liopoil, it's just from the evidence I think kooshie seems a bit more likely.

Since I think the opposite, I'm going to VOTE: Liopoil, and let's see what the others think.

I don't think this is a good D1 lynch, why do you think so? Like obviously you dont think your scummy but what makes liopoil more scummy than kooshie to you

Here he's trying to divert the attention from liopoil.  It's not much, but it's something.  Also, there is that time where mcmc forgot to put liopoil on his reads.  That easily could have been an accident, but it could be something.

liopoil/kooshie: I know they were accusing each other earlier, but they could have been doing that to try to change our minds.

It could be mcmc/kooshie or raerae could be scum, but I don't see much evidence for either of them.

I'm going to Vote: mcmcsalot for now, but this could get changed at some point.  I'll wait to see what others think.

I underlined the part where you said I left liopoil off my reads, I have posted two posts of reads and liopoil was on them both times could you please quote where I forgot to put him on my reads.

To answer your quote, I was not trying to divert attention from liopoil I wanted to know efhw's reasons for finding liopoil more scummy then kooshie.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.1:

liopoil (1): sudgy
mcmcsalot (1): raerae
sudgy (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): Kooshie, liopoil

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[mcmcsalot]

unvote

I was unaware sudgy had swapped votes to liopoil.

[mcmcsalot]

at this point possible scum teams are:

(my perspective)
sudgy/raerae and raerae/liopoil

(anyone's perspective)
sudgy/raerae
sudgy/mcmcsalot
liopoil/mcmcsalot
liopoil/raerae

[liopoil]

What about Kooshie?

[Kooshie]

I think either mcmc or sudgy are scum.  Not both, or else they've got a complicated plan which includes bussing... a lot.  if mcmc is scum, really, I don't have much of an idea as to who his mafia partner would be.  On the assumption that I'm town, I think that it would be liopoil.  They've hardly had any interaction this game, and isn't that a good scum strategy?  A raerae/mcmc scum team just doesn't seem right to me, especially with mcmc being "100% sure" that raerae is scum(along with sudgy).
If sudgy is scum, then i do think that raerae being his mafia partner is very likely.  Like i said with mcmc/raerae, a liopoil/sudgy scum team just doesn't seem to fit.
We need to be very careful here: if we lynch town, town loses, right?  So I'm going to vote sparingly, and please consult before putting someone at L-1.  It takes 3 to lynch, so, if you're town, even voting once for someone could lose town the game.  The two scum could just both go in and vote, before you can remove your vote, and lynch them.  So raerae, sudgy, please think about removing your votes...

[liopoil]

I mean, there's chance that the scum haven't gotten a chance to hammer yet because they haven't been online at the same time. I think we should all Unvote.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.2:

liopoil (1): sudgy
mcmcsalot (1): raerae

Not Voting (3): Kooshie, liopoil, mcmcsalot

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[liopoil]

Really, right now voting is anti-town. I'm going to be even more suspicious than I already am of a sudgy-raerae team if they don't unvote...

[Kooshie]

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

[mcmcsalot]

What about Kooshie?

There has to be one scum between me an raerae, if we were both town scum would hammer me and end the game. The same goes for you and sudgy, if you were both town, scum would hammer you.

To explain further kooshie/liopoil would both hammer me and win, kooshie/sudgy would both hammer me and win. Kooshie/mcmcsalot would hammer liopoil and win, kooshie/raerae would hammer liopoil and win.

Kooshie is confirmed town.

[liopoil]

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

You repeated many teams. Mcmc would be correct about kooshie being confirmed town if it weren't for the fact that she and her partner might not have been online at the same time yet. This possibility is why we should unvote.

[mcmcsalot]

Kooshie is right, town voting for town loses the game, I only voted for sudgy when I believed both sudgy and raerae to be voting for me(this would mean they had to be scum) Scum can vote for whoever the like and hope a town member agrees.

[Kooshie]

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

You repeated many teams. Mcmc would be correct about kooshie being confirmed town if it weren't for the fact that she and her partner might not have been online at the same time yet. This possibility is why we should unvote.

About the repeated teams, I know, but my mind works smoother when it's set up like that. If i'm scum, we do know that you and mcmc aren't my partners.  Same with you and mcmc both being scum.  I have put lines through those teams above.  Also, even if I'm town everyone should unvote!

[liopoil]

Raerae is viewing this thread. Please unvote raerae.

[mcmcsalot]

I think raerae and sudgy are voting for me and liopoil seperatly on purpose. They are now waiting for one town player to join either wagon and then they will hammer.

[liopoil]

well, I am not going to, and kooshie wants them to unvote, so I don't think she is going to either. mcmc I hope knows better as well.

Raerae is offline again. very suspicious. If I had to vote now it would definitely be on her or sudgy...

[Kooshie]

well, I am not going to, and kooshie wants them to unvote, so I don't think she is going to either. mcmc I hope knows better as well.

Raerae is offline again. very suspicious. If I had to vote now it would definitely be on her or sudgy...

..but you're not going to vote...
I suppose that would be true for me, too.  But you can never be certain...

[raerae]

Raerae is viewing this thread. Please unvote raerae.

Raerae was viewing from her phone and is now on a computer.  Cool your jets and I'll get caught up.

[ashersky]

Please, you really should hurry.  The rats have stopped scurrying.  I think that means they're planning to make their move.

If you see Jorbles, please, give him my regards.  He's been the best butler you could ever ask for.  Really.

Vote Count 3.3:

liopoil (1): sudgy
mcmcsalot (1): raerae

Not Voting (3): Kooshie, liopoil, mcmcsalot

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[mcmcsalot]

from my perspective raerae has to be scum. I assume she will not change her vote, from her perspective I have to be scum.

As I stated before I believe raerae has played a passive game, giving relatively week reads as I have quoted. She was voting a lurker through all of D1, a lurker that turned out to be town.

Another thing I noticed when trying to understand a scum!raerae game. She has been buddying the newbies all game, wanting to lynch robz intsead of mail-mi claiming she wanted to keep newbies in the game. Jimm was then nk'd on night 1, jimm was a power role and that very well could have been the reason for his death but killing off a vet fits with her endgame. She most likely didn't kill me last night because that would have almost certaintly implicated her as scum and she felt she could force a mislynch on me.

In reference to kooshie, even though we do not want to cast our votes we do still want to voice who we would vote for and then cast them once we have decided. I suggest we do it like this

vote: raerae I have left this unbolded and therefor the vote does not count but we can keep track and when we reach a majority we can safely cast the votes.

[raerae]

I'm scummy for hammering robz after a long day of people talking and saying I was on a scum team with robz and forcing me to explain a town read I had on robz that was a solid way to tell if robz was town(oh yea he was). But raerae and sudgy aren't scummy for putting me at L-1 hours into the day...

Also raerae you never responded to my post and I would like you to,

I am almost certain sudgy raerae are the scum team, in fact if kooshie or liopoil were scum I would have been hammered by now(unless I am scum I understand but from my perspective I have found the scum team with 100% certainty) I thought this was the scum team yesterday and wanted to lynch sudgy then. I hammered robz because I felt we were getting nowhere positive and with his flip I now know exactly who is scum.

I have made the case on sudgy multiple times, robz a confirmed townie with lots of mafia experience also found sudgy scummy, Jimm the confirmed town cop  and the next most experienced player here started the wagon on sudgy D1 and found him scummy.
vote: sudgy and if I am night killed raerae should be the lynch for tomorow.

Deleted his quote of the post he wants me to respond to just so this post wasn't stupid long.

Addressing bolded areas in order.

1) Long day?  I thought it was moving awfully fast.  How many RL days were we into D2?  I really don't believe it was long.  I think you wanted to end it quickly to get the heat off you.  And are you trying to guilt trip people by saying we "forced you" to explain your read on robz?  Yeah.  That's good play.  This is Mafia, dear, and you can't trust anything anybody says.  If we (those questioning you) didn't accept your read without explanation, then we already knew it to be true which would mean we were mafia.

2) Easy to know that when you're scum. Also, as I said above, you didn't explain until D2, then you just explained exactly what he had done in D2.  You didn't explain your reads on him D1 because they weren't there.  Robz did little to nothing except a little theory talk D1.  It would be all but impossible to have any sort of read on him, brother or not, based on that performance.

3) You haven't been at L-1 this game.  Exaggeration is as much your thing as sassy is mine, isn't it?

4) I don't understand how you expect me to respond to you quoting my case on you.  I paraphrased all of that.  You quoted it and proved it.  You never asked questions.  You never made accusations.  You simply quoted.  There is literally nothing for me to respond to.  I suppose I could argue that you didn't explain your read on Robz as soon as I asked.  We had to go into D2 for you to do that.  I've beaten this horse to death.  Twice.  You purposely tried to mislead town by summarizing my posts to make them sound scummy.

5) Again, you haven't been at L-1. 

6) Yet you haven't made one on me, his supposed scumbuddy?  Is that because the only case you can come up with would be weak at best?  You know I'm town because you're scum.  Sudgy has been scummier and is the easier lynch.  That's why you keep pushing for him instead of me. 

[mcmcsalot]

raerae, i thought I was at L-1 because I missed sudgy voting for liopoil.

Also I have been making a case on you, you are the one who has deflected responding and are making a case on me without the use of quotes, you have said all game that you think I am trying to manipulate people and not providing concrete reasons I feel you are doing just that. I will make my point again.

Robz isn't being the town Robz I know and mcmc's defense of him his flimsy at best.  Mcmc is being the scum mcmc I remember from blitz.  He's taking certain things people say and skewing them slightly so they sound scummy.  This tactic relies on town reading his post and his take on it instead of going back and reading for themselves.

Vote: mcmcsalot

Here you claim I am inflating my case on you and skewing things to my own perspective and making people take my post without reading themselves(aka not quoting and using facts)

Sudgy, you are still voting for me when you have said I was towny D1, both you and raerae have found me scummy for my defense(which I say again was made D1) of robz . It seems like you find robz more scummy than me, you voted for him before you voted me, do you find me or robz scummier?

False.  I found you scummy for not explaining your townread on him.  It's also convenient that your read on him just happened to be all the things he did in his first couple posts of D2 and basically nothing he did D1.

I also find you scummy for doing things like this: Taking a truth and twisting it to cast that person in a scummy light.  Por ejemplo, I said my reads list wasn't "as helpful" as I wanted it to be and you took that, did your scummagic, and portrayed it like I said it "wasn't helpful."  I can find the quote if anybody is interested.

Again you claim I am stretching the truth and saying your reads are unfelpful.

Now here are the two post I made earlier and why I felt you were scummy.

Reads, not as helpful as I was hoping, time to do some reading.

EFHW - Sounds like our personalities are going to clash until she figures out I'm just sassy and not actually upset at anything, seems like she's reasonably thinking things through though, I look forward to reading more from her

Jimmmmm - Null, his post count is almost as high as mine but I don't remember anything in particular he's discussed, will have to reread

Kooshie - seems a little shady for the defensiveness, eager to please, lurking until called out, seems to be looking for other people to tell her what to have reads on, giving her a little more wiggle room for being new though, not ready to vote yet

liopoil - seems helpful with pushing things along, not real sure yet

mail-mi - needs to talk more, I don't have a read yet

mcmcsalot - trying to push the day along (in a good way), getting reads out, not being overly aggressive, seems towny

Robz888 - doesn't seem interested/invested in this game yet, was posting elsewhere on Friday but didn't post here other than one post super early in th AM, waiting to read until he posts more

sudgy - overzealous town, super excited about jumping on anything remotely scummy, I appreciate the enthusiasm

So I was doing my reread of raerae, she has pushed hard against lurkers this whole game infact after this post all she has commented on is robz lurking. While I agree with robz needing to post more you also need to post more. In this your big post with reads you say this isn't going to be helpful and then you give null reads on just about everyone. You mention you need to read more on people, this sounds to me like potential scum pushing for lurkers and not giving any real reads.

In this quote I say you make null reads on almost everyone which you do.

@raerae,

2) my post referring to you is not trumped up, in fact I find you a bit scummy for how defensive you have been of my criticism but I think that's just you. All I have said is your reads were weaker than I expected and I was surprised about you being on robz the whole day, I just didn't realize you never moved your vote from him. Also if you care to I ask you to think back to ZMIX where I not just cast suspicion on you but found you somewhat scummy and took advantage of your snarky jokey play style(which I love btw) and pushed until you were mislynched. For the newbies I was scum in that game. This game I have found you somewhat scummy because I think you often have stronger stances than lets lynch the lurker, however I have always found others more scummy than you and would not vote for you with the current evidence.

In this quote I again find you scummy for being so defensive about my criticism of you. And I defend the fact that I have never said your reads were useless only that they were not what I expected.

I have made a case on you previously to now, and I was making a case on sudgy not because he is the easier lynch but because befor now I found him more scummy then you.

I still find him more scummy then you but do to the way voting works I am 100% confident you are scum because I am town.

[raerae]

I think either mcmc or sudgy are scum.  Not both, or else they've got a complicated plan which includes bussing... a lot.  if mcmc is scum, really, I don't have much of an idea as to who his mafia partner would be.  On the assumption that I'm town, I think that it would be liopoil.  They've hardly had any interaction this game, and isn't that a good scum strategy?  A raerae/mcmc scum team just doesn't seem right to me, especially with mcmc being "100% sure" that raerae is scum(along with sudgy).
If sudgy is scum, then i do think that raerae being his mafia partner is very likely.  Like i said with mcmc/raerae, a liopoil/sudgy scum team just doesn't seem to fit.
We need to be very careful here: if we lynch town, town loses, right?  So I'm going to vote sparingly, and please consult before putting someone at L-1.  It takes 3 to lynch, so, if you're town, even voting once for someone could lose town the game.  The two scum could just both go in and vote, before you can remove your vote, and lynch them.  So raerae, sudgy, please think about removing your votes...

1) My thoughts exactly.

2) I defended sudgy vehemently D1. I think that is super bad scum play.  Maybe I'm wrong but if I were scum, I would not so loudly defend my scumbuddy.

3) Addressing the last half of your post here.  We are in LyLo (Lynch or Lose) so, yeah, random voting is an awful idea.  However, if, like me, you have been voting for somebody since before this came up, and that person hasn't been hammered, it seems pretty safe that that person is scum.  Just saying.  And I'm hesitant to unvote.  I'm very confident in this as I have seen scummy mcmc before and been mislynched because of him.

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae you leave out the option that I am not hammered because you are scum...

And robz has been know to vehemently defend his scum buddy, it is a less seen tactic but a tactic none the less.

[sudgy]

Since me and raerae voted for you and liopoil, everyone has been on a fair amount.  I would think that at some point they would have hammered by now.  I think now there are only two possible scum teams:

mcmc/liopoil: They can't do a mislynch because the only people who are voted are themselves.

sudgy/raerae: They can't do a mislynch because they're the only people voting.

I obviously say I'm town.  The only other option left is mcmc/liopoil.  I was going to unvote, but I now am 99% certain that mcmc and liopoil are mafia.  Not only am I not going to unvote, I'm going to Vote: mcmcsalot.

[raerae]

Guys, assuming you're town, there are four people spewing their views out and about, trying to convince you to believe as they do.  Read their arguments, listen to yourself, but make up your own mind.  Sheeping somebody's argument in LyLo with two scum because you think that person is town is bad news.  We really need town to decide independently what is best for town.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.4:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}

Not Voting (3): Kooshie, liopoil, mcmcsalot

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[mcmcsalot]

Alright well we are at that point, I am going to officially vote: sudgy I would vote raerae as well but if one of them is scum, they are both scum. Raerae is right when she says we have all made our cases, we should be here to respond and do what is needed but it is up to kooshie to decide what to do.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.5:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): Kooshie, liopoil

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[raerae]

Alright well we are at that point, I am going to officially vote: sudgy I would vote raerae as well but if one of them is scum, they are both scum. Raerae is right when she says we have all made our cases, we should be here to respond and do what is needed but it is up to kooshie to decide what to do.

There are two people not voting, mcmc.  Why put the pressure on Kooshie?

[mcmcsalot]

because kooshie is confirmed town, sudgy was voting for liopoil so there has to be one scum between the two of them and sudgy is now voting for me.
The only possible scum teams are now sudgy/raerae and mcmcsaot/liopoil.

[mcmcsalot]

We have been over the fact that kooshie is confirmed town, at least he is from my perspective.

[Kooshie]

I crossed out a liopoil/mcmc scum team on my chart.  That was incorrect: it was still possible as the only votes were on liopoil and mcmc.

[Kooshie]

...if, like me, you have been voting for somebody since before this came up, and that person hasn't been hammered, it seems pretty safe that that person is scum....

...or you're scum.

[liopoil]

There are actually three possible scumteams: liopoil-mcmc, raerae-sudgy, and mcmc-sudgy.

From my perspective the first one is impossible. Sudgy is in both of the other  two. Kooshie, at this point there really is no reason for me not to vote. We already know that one of me/sudgy is scum, so Vote: Sudgy.

[liopoil]

town!liopoil knows that sudgy is scum w/mcmc or raerae
town!sudgy knows that the scumteam is mcmc-liopoil
town!mcmc knows that the scumteam is raerae-sudgy
town!raerae knows that mcmc is scum w/liopoil or sudgy.
town!kooshie knows nothing

scum!liopoil is partners with mcmc
scum!sudgy is partners with mcmc or raerae
scum!mcmc is partners with sudgy or liopoil
scum!raerae is partners with sudgy
scum!kooshie doesn't exist.

[liopoil]

POST COUNT!!!!

Mcmcsalot: 81
Sudgy: 73
Raerae: 67
Liopoil: 64
Kooshie: 59

Close enough to be able to say we've all contributed enough. I mean, kooshie, who has posted the least, is confirmed town... and our top two suspects have the most posts...

[liopoil]

I think the sudgy-mcmc scumteam should be seriously considered. Yes they have been pushing lynches on each other, both saying with certainty that the other is scum. But imagine what happens if we assume that it's either liopoil-mcmc or raerae-sudgy, but it's actually mcmc-sudgy:

mcmc-sudgy cannot lose

If we lynch mcmc, he flips scum, sudgy kills raerae or kooshie, then we lynch liopoil because we assume he must be mcmc's partner and sudgy-mcmc wins

If we lynch sudgy, he flips scum, mcmc kills kooshie or liopoil, then we lynch raerae because we assume she must be sudgy's partner, and sudgy-mcmc wins

If we lynch liopoil, sudgy-mcmc win

If we lynch raerae, sudgy-mcmc win.

If we lynch Kooshie, sudgy-mcmc win.

So mcmc-sudgy could be sacrificing one of their members to insure the win the next day. This is why I think it is a very plausible scenario, equally likely from my perspective as sudgy-raerae.

[sudgy]

I think the sudgy-mcmc scumteam should be seriously considered. Yes they have been pushing lynches on each other, both saying with certainty that the other is scum. But imagine what happens if we assume that it's either liopoil-mcmc or raerae-sudgy, but it's actually mcmc-sudgy:

mcmc-sudgy cannot lose

If we lynch mcmc, he flips scum, sudgy kills raerae or kooshie, then we lynch liopoil because we assume he must be mcmc's partner and sudgy-mcmc wins

If we lynch sudgy, he flips scum, mcmc kills kooshie or liopoil, then we lynch raerae because we assume she must be sudgy's partner, and sudgy-mcmc wins

If we lynch liopoil, sudgy-mcmc win

If we lynch raerae, sudgy-mcmc win.

If we lynch Kooshie, sudgy-mcmc win.

So mcmc-sudgy could be sacrificing one of their members to insure the win the next day. This is why I think it is a very plausible scenario, equally likely from my perspective as sudgy-raerae.

So you think we were somehow planning this since D-2 when there were more people?

[sudgy]

Also, you could be doing this to ensure that you win.  "Oh, it has to be mcmc/sudgy, so we'll lynch them two and then I'll win as mcmc's mafia buddy."

[raerae]

...if, like me, you have been voting for somebody since before this came up, and that person hasn't been hammered, it seems pretty safe that that person is scum....

...or you're scum.

True, but this was before talk of how voting is bad had happened so were I scum and we had decided to push a mislynch on mcmc (and considering that quick-hammer it would be the most logical/easiest mislynch), my scumbuddy would have been on there with me right away.  If sudgy were my partner, he would have stayed on mcmc. That way, when somebody inevitably pointed out that we put somebody at L-1 hours into the day, one or both of us could have backed off without too much suspicion.

[raerae]

Lio, have you commented on mcmcsalot ending D2 less than 3 RL days into it? If so, please point me in that direction. If not, care to?

[raerae]

Also, I'm at lunch so only on for a few more minutes but wanted to throw this down while I'm thinking about it. Can somebody pull the votes for the last two lynches? I'm on my phone so can't right now but certainly will when I get home if nobody has the time/sees the merit. I feel like that would be interesting. Also, EFHW died and nobody has analyzed that. I plan on doing that tonight but just wanted to point out that out.

[liopoil]

I feel like I might have mentioned this in less detail somewhere, but I'll just say it again in response to raerae:

I think that the mcmc hammer was VERY scummy. He has very little motivation to do this as town. Perhaps he did believe that there wasn't much more that was to be said that day and was ready for it to end, but still.

[liopoil]

Sudgy: I am not saying that an mcmc-sudgy scumteam is more likely than raerae-sudgy, just that is definatly something that should be put into at least some consideration. I am starting to believe it to be quite likely because of the mcmc hammer and the sudgy's response to me voicing the possibility.

[Kooshie]

Also, I'm at lunch so only on for a few more minutes but wanted to throw this down while I'm thinking about it. Can somebody pull the votes for the last two lynches? I'm on my phone so can't right now but certainly will when I get home if nobody has the time/sees the merit. I feel like that would be interesting. Also, EFHW died and nobody has analyzed that. I plan on doing that tonight but just wanted to point out that out.

I think that efhw died because she was being really active: posting reads, scumhunting, and was probably pretty accurate, too.  We should all look at what she said before she died.

[liopoil]

a raerae-mcmc scumteam is at least a little bit possible too. Yes, there was a period where they could have quickhammered me if this were the case, but maybe they were never on at the same time. Still unlikely.

[liopoil]

So you think we were somehow planning this since D-2 when there were more people?

It would have worked just as well then. Had we lynched mcmc D2 it seems unlikely that we would ever lynch sudgy.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.6:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil {L-1}

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[liopoil]

Kooshie is going to eventually decide who to lynch. She should ask lots of questions so that hopefully she will make the right decision for town.

There is no reason to lynch liopoil/raerae today. If we think that one of them is scum then we also think that mcmc/sudgy is scum, respectively, whereas if we think mcmc/sudgy is scum we don't necessarily think that liopoil/raerae is scum because the team could be mcmc-sudgy.

So kooshie, the game is in your hands.

[Kooshie]

Kooshie is going to eventually decide who to lynch. She should ask lots of questions so that hopefully she will make the right decision for town.

There is no reason to lynch liopoil/raerae today. If we think that one of them is scum then we also think that mcmc/sudgy is scum, respectively, whereas if we think mcmc/sudgy is scum we don't necessarily think that liopoil/raerae is scum because the team could be mcmc-sudgy.

So kooshie, the game is in your hands.

I'm definitely not going to end the game today.  I will ask a lot of questions, reread things, and ask that everybody continue to say things so I can gather more and more data, so I can figure out an accurate result.  I might even use math!  *gasp*
Liopoil, I don't think that you have said straight out who you think the scum team is.  When you say perspective, you mean assuming that you're town? 
Yes, I suppose the game is in my hands.  I have been king-made.  I am the consequential innocent child.  I have a lot of pressure on me...  So does this mean that if I vote for someone who is not at L-1, will everybody switch that vote to that person?  Is the game wholly at my mercy?  I think not.  I can vote for sudgy or mcmc and end the game, but if someone truly does think that who I vote for is scum, they will not follow along like a blind, meek creature who only knows of me, and nothing else, and so will heed my every word.  I am not in complete control.
Please excuse my excessive poetic-ness, it just happens sometimes.

[raerae]

OK, as promised, here is a look at the D1 and D2 votes.

D2
Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

D3
sudgy (2): Robz888
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (3): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie, mcmcsalot

OK, so we have mcmc, EFHW, and Kooshie on both lynches.  Lio wasn't voting at the end of D1. Mcmc was on sudgy moments before hammering robz. 

Robz and EFHW are confirmed town.  I think there had to be at least one scum on the D1 lynch so that gives us mcmc, sudgy, and Kooshie.  Same with D2, there had to be one scum there so if we compare that with D1 we come out with mcmc and Kooshie.  Since Kooshie has to be town or she would have hammered by now, mcmc has to be our scum. 

[liopoil]

Kooshie, there is absolutely no reason to lynch anyone who isn't sudgy or mcmc.

The five people are kooshie, raerae, liopoil, sudgy, and mcmc. There is no reason to lynch kooshie because she is confirmed town. If raerae is scum then sudgy must also be scum. sudgy could also be partners with mcmc though. therefore if we think raerae is scum we should lynch sudgy instead. if liopiol is scum mcmc must also be scum. mcmc could also be partners with sudgy though. therefore if we think liopoil is scum we should lynch mcmc instead.

Kooshie: from my perspective I KNOW with absolute certainty that sudgy must be scum. I know that I am town, and kooshie is town. If sudgy were town the team would be mcmc-raerae. if the team were mcmc-raerae they would have hammered me when sudgy was voting for me. so scratch what I said earlier about a possible raerae-mcmc team, it pretty much certainly isn't true. Therefore I know that sudgy must be scum. So I want kooshie to hammer sudgy. I suppose this would probably still be true if I was scum, but there it is. I know that the other scum is mcmc or raerae, but I am not sure which I think it is. I think I might be leaning mcmc at this point

Kooshie, assuming we lynch scum today, there is a good chance you will die that night, because you will be confirmed town. Make sure to tell us who you want to lynch tomorrow assuming whoever you hammer flips scum and you are nightkilled before you hammer. We are going to have two options tomorrow: whichever of sudgy-mcmc that isn't lynched, and liopoil/raerae, depending on which of sudgy/mcmc we lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

OK, as promised, here is a look at the D1 and D2 votes.

D2
Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

D3
sudgy (2): Robz888
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (3): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie, mcmcsalot

OK, so we have mcmc, EFHW, and Kooshie on both lynches.  Lio wasn't voting at the end of D1. Mcmc was on sudgy moments before hammering robz. 

Robz and EFHW are confirmed town.  I think there had to be at least one scum on the D1 lynch so that gives us mcmc, sudgy, and Kooshie.  Same with D2, there had to be one scum there so if we compare that with D1 we come out with mcmc and Kooshie.  Since Kooshie has to be town or she would have hammered by now, mcmc has to be our scum. 

I was on sudgy yesterday and wanted sudgy lynched. I thought sudgy rearea was the scum team which meant the entire town other than me was on robz, so I decided robz was the lynch town wanted. I also thought that robz had the potential to be scum with sudgy so I wasn't against the robz lynch.

I find it more interesting that you were on robz and wanted him lynched all of D1 and then all of the sudden everyone decides robz is the correct lynch and you aren't on the wagon. Scum wants to be off wagon and stay low key.

[Kooshie]

OK, as promised, here is a look at the D1 and D2 votes.

D2
Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

D3
sudgy (2): Robz888
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (3): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie, mcmcsalot

OK, so we have mcmc, EFHW, and Kooshie on both lynches.  Lio wasn't voting at the end of D1. Mcmc was on sudgy moments before hammering robz. 

Robz and EFHW are confirmed town.  I think there had to be at least one scum on the D1 lynch so that gives us mcmc, sudgy, and Kooshie.  Same with D2, there had to be one scum there so if we compare that with D1 we come out with mcmc and Kooshie.  Since Kooshie has to be town or she would have hammered by now, mcmc has to be our scum.

I quickly saw what I underlined, but I don't quite understand the rest.  Could you make it a bit more clear for me?

[raerae]

EFHW D2 Reread:

First post after the flip asks if a vet killed jimmmmm for recognizing he had a PR.  This was a good thought and I think she was on to something.

The next few posts she asks good towny questions (why would scum jump around so much (re: sudgy), why mcmc hasn't mentioned any of robz' town/scum qualities that she found when reading games, tries to get robz to participate, etc.).  She was the first one to suggest a robz/mcmc scumteam and she basically challenged mcmc for most of the day.  Here is her vote on robz, less than convinced he's scum, right?

VOTE: Robz888 until we hear something substantial from him to change my mind.

Then somebody prematurely hammered and she died that night so...yeah, that sucks.

Here's my theory:  mcmc is on a scumteam (I'm leaning toward lio being her partner but am not sold on that yet).  mcmc is a smart guy, good at basic math, knows that EFHW, sudgy, and myself are three whole people who suspect him and that just happens to be the magic lynch number for D3 so he has to kill one of us.  EFHW was the towniest of the bunch so scum have to kill her because a mislynch on either sudgy or myself would be much easier than a mislynch on EFHW.

[mcmcsalot]

EFHW D2 Reread:

First post after the flip asks if a vet killed jimmmmm for recognizing he had a PR.  This was a good thought and I think she was on to something.

The next few posts she asks good towny questions (why would scum jump around so much (re: sudgy), why mcmc hasn't mentioned any of robz' town/scum qualities that she found when reading games, tries to get robz to participate, etc.).  She was the first one to suggest a robz/mcmc scumteam and she basically challenged mcmc for most of the day.  Here is her vote on robz, less than convinced he's scum, right?

VOTE: Robz888 until we hear something substantial from him to change my mind.

Then somebody prematurely hammered and she died that night so...yeah, that sucks.

Here's my theory:  mcmc is on a scumteam (I'm leaning toward lio being her partner but am not sold on that yet).  mcmc is a smart guy, good at basic math, knows that EFHW, sudgy, and myself are three whole people who suspect him and that just happens to be the magic lynch number for D3 so he has to kill one of us.  EFHW was the towniest of the bunch so scum have to kill her because a mislynch on either sudgy or myself would be much easier than a mislynch on EFHW.

A few things to mention, first raerae I think you could have thought of this agrgument and killed efhw to cast suspicion on me. Second I think it should be pretty clear robz is one of the hardest people to read and being his brother I had a relatively good way to track when hes town, this was reliable because he was unaware of it and could not mimic the play as scum. This was why I was reluctant to give the reason for my town read.

[raerae]

I quickly saw what I underlined, but I don't quite understand the rest.  Could you make it a bit more clear for me?

I can try. I'm not always the best at explaining so if I don't get it this time just keep asking.

I believe there had to be at least one of the two scum on the D1 lynch so that's where the "I think" comes in.  I don't know that there 100% and without a doubt scum on the D1 lynch but I think it seems super likely.

I also believe this to be true for the D2 lynch.  I just can't fathom scum not on a lynch at all and the lynch being 100% town driven.  That just seems unlikely.

So, I compared the lynches to see who was on both and came up with mcmc, EFHW, and yourself.  Then I removed the dead people.  That left you and mcmc.  You have faux-IC status because if you were scum you would have hammered by now.  Unless you're weird and sadistic and just want to watch us flounder.  That's creepy.  So, by this logic (and I fully admit it could be flawed but I don't believe it is), mcmc is scum.

[raerae]

Gotta go coach small childrens so v/la for a couple hours.

[mcmcsalot]

OK, as promised, here is a look at the D1 and D2 votes.

D2
Robz888 (1): raerae
liopoil (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

D3
sudgy (2): Robz888
mcmcsalot (2): sudgy, raerae
Robz888 (3): EFHW, liopoil, Kooshie, mcmcsalot

OK, so we have mcmc, EFHW, and Kooshie on both lynches.  Lio wasn't voting at the end of D1. Mcmc was on sudgy moments before hammering robz. 

Robz and EFHW are confirmed town.  I think there had to be at least one scum on the D1 lynch so that gives us mcmc, sudgy, and Kooshie.  Same with D2, there had to be one scum there so if we compare that with D1 we come out with mcmc and Kooshie.  Since Kooshie has to be town or she would have hammered by now, mcmc has to be our scum.

I quickly saw what I underlined, but I don't quite understand the rest.  Could you make it a bit more clear for me?

I believe she is saying it would be difficult to get a lynch without having scum vote for town. I think the opposite, as long as scum defend there partner all game and drive the lynch away from them they can sit back and watch town lynch town every day. This is what raerae did D2 when I had a solid case on sudgy, she defended him and pushed to lynch robz instead and then sat back and didn't vote for him waiting for town to lynch town.

Ah I see she explained herself while I was typing.

[Kooshie]

Mcmc and raerae, please stop hinting at and badgering each other.  All this just makes makes everything more confusing, and makes me think that you're bussing, or something of the sort.  I would rather liopoil and sudgy talked about their reasons: not that your reasons aren't good, but I want to hear some voices that aren't constantly accusing each other indirectly.
Okay, maybe not constantly, but still...

[raerae]

Mcmc and raerae, please stop hinting at and badgering each other.  All this just makes makes everything more confusing, and makes me think that you're bussing, or something of the sort.  I would rather liopoil and sudgy talked about their reasons: not that your reasons aren't good, but I want to hear some voices that aren't constantly accusing each other indirectly.
Okay, maybe not constantly, but still...

Yeah, I was thinking about this on the way to bball.  After this one last clarification, I'm done being sneaky snarky.  It was D1 I defended sudgy and voted for Robz.  D1, not D2.

[raerae]

Another question: I know this has been discussed but I don't fully understand it, why are lio and I not valid lynch targets for today?  Not that I am really eager to be in that position but I don't understand why we're exempt.

[mcmcsalot]

Another question: I know this has been discussed but I don't fully understand it, why are lio and I not valid lynch targets for today?  Not that I am really eager to be in that position but I don't understand why we're exempt.

You and liopoil are not not valid lynch targets because of this reason,

If you are scum, sudgy has to be scum. If you were scum with me you would hammer sudgy, if you were scum with liopoil, liopoil would hammer me or you would hammer sudgy, if you were scum with kooshie, kooshie would hammer me or sudgy.

If liopoil is scum I have to be scum. If liopoil is scum with sudgy, liopoil would hammer me, if liopoil is scum with raerae, liopoil would hammer me or raerae would hammer sudgy, if liopoil is scum with kooshie, kooshie would hammer me or sudgy.

If I am scum, liopoil or sudgy could be scum.

If sudgy is scum, raerae or me could be scum.

So the best chance for a scum hit is me or sudgy. I understand raerae's flip or liopoil's flip would tell us exactly who scum is but we cannot afford to lynch town so we want to go for the best %chance.

[sudgy]

Mcmc and raerae, please stop hinting at and badgering each other.  All this just makes makes everything more confusing, and makes me think that you're bussing, or something of the sort.  I would rather liopoil and sudgy talked about their reasons: not that your reasons aren't good, but I want to hear some voices that aren't constantly accusing each other indirectly.
Okay, maybe not constantly, but still...

Two things, the possible (plausible) scum teams are mcmc/liopoil, mcmc/me, and me/raerae.  The only one that doesn't have me is mcmc/liopoil, so that's what I think.  Also, I think mcmc's and liopoil's behaviour have been scummy.

[Jorbles]

"Have you found Master Ashersky yet? I brought down some cucumber sandwiches for you while you searched. Oh, more bodies, *sigh* I will handle this. Do you plan on leaving any other bodies lying around while you're at it? If you do please try not to explode their bodily fluid everywhere. It's hard to get out of the carpet."

[liopoil]

Mcmc and raerae, please stop hinting at and badgering each other.  All this just makes makes everything more confusing, and makes me think that you're bussing, or something of the sort.  I would rather liopoil and sudgy talked about their reasons: not that your reasons aren't good, but I want to hear some voices that aren't constantly accusing each other indirectly.
Okay, maybe not constantly, but still...

Kooshie it is very much worth it to try to convince you that raerae/liopoil is scum. Yes, we are lynching mcmc or sudgy. However, if we think raerae is scum then we KNOW sudgy is scum, and you should vote sudgy. if we think liopoil is scum then we KNOW mcmc is scum, and you should vote mcmc. mcmc and I should try to convince you that sudgy and raerae are more scummy then liopoil and mcmc, and sudgy-raerae should try to convince you of the opposite. This is true regardless of our allignments. Kooshie I think you should reread D4 for the theory stuff we have discussed.

[Kooshie]

I am starting to think more and more that both mcmc and sudgy are scum.  Here are a few reasons:

Like I said before, mcmc has been saying reasons why raerae is scum.  I know that if raerae is scum then sudgy has to be scum, so therefore making me believe raerae is scum would get sudgy lynched.  But it is possible that he just doesn't want too much more convincing information proving that his scum partner, sudgy, is scum?  This is just a thought.  I'm not sure exactly why, but something inside me is saying, sudgy is scum.  Sudgy is scum.  Liopoil is not. Blah.  Blah.  Vote for mcmc. Not that I'm going to put much faith in that voice!
Also, how sudgy's acting... it just seems so vague.  I just think...  this person... because... a reason... that isn't really a reason...  I already gave a reason... Things like this, kind of.  He gives maybe one or two "reason posts" and refers to them for the rest of the game, or something of the like.  They are both scummy in my eyes, but you can never be sure...

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.7:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil {L-1}

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

Want to note that after today I'll be V/LA for two weeks vacation.  I'll have some intermittent mobile access and whatnot, but if the game is still ongoing, my trusty butler can handle it.

[liopoil]

I would agree that the sudgy-mcmc is looking like the most likely scumteam from my perspective. That's nice because then kooshie will lynch scum either way today. In this case we should decide which seems slightly MORE scummy than the other, and lynch that person first.

[Kooshie]

I would agree that the sudgy-mcmc is looking like the most likely scumteam from my perspective. That's nice because then kooshie will lynch scum either way today. In this case we should decide which seems slightly MORE scummy than the other, and lynch that person first.

                                                                                     Exactly what I was thinking.  It would be very nice, wouldn't it, to not be able to make a mistake in my vote.    Right now I would like both of them to state their defenses without including accusing other people in it, or making any claims.

[sudgy]

I would agree that the sudgy-mcmc is looking like the most likely scumteam from my perspective. That's nice because then kooshie will lynch scum either way today. In this case we should decide which seems slightly MORE scummy than the other, and lynch that person first.

                                                                                     Exactly what I was thinking.  It would be very nice, wouldn't it, to not be able to make a mistake in my vote.    Right now I would like both of them to state their defenses without including accusing other people in it, or making any claims.

I guess my main defense would be that my "scuminess" is just how I play.  I can't think of much else to say.  I'll probably be a little more easy to read after playing several games because people will know how I play.

[sudgy]

Although I will say, don't feel sorry for mislynching.  Both mcmc and I have been scummy this game and in your eyes we both seem like we're scum.

[Kooshie]

Although I will say, don't feel sorry for mislynching.  Both mcmc and I have been scummy this game and in your eyes we both seem like we're scum.

You don't feel sorry for mislynching...  do you mean robz or mcmc?  or do you mean if I lynch you or mcmc and you flip town, you won't be sorry because you both have been acting scummy?

[liopoil]

especially sudgy!

From my perspective since I know sudgy is scum the little raerae-mcmc argument was very interesting. I though raerae came across a little more towny that mcmc from it.

Kooshie, do you want me to go compile lots of reasons why you should think that sudgy is scum and present it? I'm thinking that maybe it's a good idea for each of mcmc and I to do this, and for sudgy and raerae to show why you should hammer mcmc instead.

[sudgy]

Although I will say, don't feel sorry for mislynching.  Both mcmc and I have been scummy this game and in your eyes we both seem like we're scum.

You don't feel sorry for mislynching...  do you mean robz or mcmc?  or do you mean if I lynch you or mcmc and you flip town, you won't be sorry because you both have been acting scummy?

I'm saying don't feel sorry if you lynch me or mcmc and we flip town.

[Kooshie]

I am starting to think more and more that both mcmc and sudgy are scum.  Here are a few reasons:

Like I said before, mcmc has been saying reasons why raerae is scum.  I know that if raerae is scum then sudgy has to be scum, so therefore making me believe raerae is scum would get sudgy lynched.  But it is possible that he just doesn't want too much more convincing information proving that his scum partner, sudgy, is scum?  This is just a thought.  I'm not sure exactly why, but something inside me is saying, sudgy is scum.  Sudgy is scum.  Liopoil is not. Blah.  Blah.  Vote for mcmc. Not that I'm going to put much faith in that voice!
Also, how sudgy's acting... it just seems so vague.  I just think...  this person... because... a reason... that isn't really a reason...  I already gave a reason... Things like this, kind of.  He gives maybe one or two "reason posts" and refers to them for the rest of the game, or something of the like.  They are both scummy in my eyes, but you can never be sure...

I've got this all wrong.  If mcmc and sudgy are a team, mcmc has been saying these things against raerae for a different reason.  He knows that either him or his scum buddy(sudgy)will be lynched, so he has a plan.(This a lot like what liopoil said awhile back about us not emitting a mcmc/sudgy scum team.)  He will make sure that raerae is seen as scum along with sudgy, so when sudgy is lynched, the next lynch will be raerae, a town lynch.  Overnight town has died(not raerae)and after this mislynch, overnight the last town will die.  Thus scum(mcmc)would win.

[Kooshie]

especially sudgy!

From my perspective since I know sudgy is scum the little raerae-mcmc argument was very interesting. I though raerae came across a little more towny that mcmc from it.

Kooshie, do you want me to go compile lots of reasons why you should think that sudgy is scum and present it? I'm thinking that maybe it's a good idea for each of mcmc and I to do this, and for sudgy and raerae to show why you should hammer mcmc instead.

Sure, go ahead.  Please.

[sudgy]

Alright, I'll say why mcmc/liopoil is a team and why me/raerae isn't a team.

mcmc/liopoil: they have both been scummy the whole game.  Liopoil's lurking early, mcmc's hammer on D2, liopoil's trying to convince us of mcmc/me (so that if mcmc is lynched today we won't instantly lynch him tomorrow).  Also, early on, as I mentioned before, mcmc tried to divert EFHW's attention away from liopoil.

me/raerae: Raerae, to me, doesn't seem that scummy.  The only reason she would seem scummy is that she defended me vehemently on D1.


As for me/mcmc, I'm not sure what to say about that...  I've never even heard of people bussing that much, and I can't think of any other thing to say about it.

[liopoil]

I didn't lurk early. I posted lots very early on (first actually). There was however a period of two RL days during D1 in which I was absent.

[sudgy]

I didn't lurk early. I posted lots very early on (first actually). There was however a period of two RL days during D1 in which I was absent.

That must be what I was thinking of then.

[Kooshie]

I am starting to think more and more that both mcmc and sudgy are scum.  Here are a few reasons:

Like I said before, mcmc has been saying reasons why raerae is scum.  I know that if raerae is scum then sudgy has to be scum, so therefore making me believe raerae is scum would get sudgy lynched.  But it is possible that he just doesn't want too much more convincing information proving that his scum partner, sudgy, is scum?  This is just a thought.  I'm not sure exactly why, but something inside me is saying, sudgy is scum.  Sudgy is scum.  Liopoil is not. Blah.  Blah.  Vote for mcmc. Not that I'm going to put much faith in that voice!
Also, how sudgy's acting... it just seems so vague.  I just think...  this person... because... a reason... that isn't really a reason...  I already gave a reason... Things like this, kind of.  He gives maybe one or two "reason posts" and refers to them for the rest of the game, or something of the like.  They are both scummy in my eyes, but you can never be sure...

I've got this all wrong.  If mcmc and sudgy are a team, mcmc has been saying these things against raerae for a different reason.  He knows that either him or his scum buddy(sudgy)will be lynched, so he has a plan.(This a lot like what liopoil said awhile back about us not emitting a mcmc/sudgy scum team.)  He will make sure that raerae is seen as scum along with sudgy, so when sudgy is lynched, the next lynch will be raerae, a town lynch.  Overnight town has died(not raerae)and after this mislynch, overnight the last town will die.  Thus scum(mcmc)would win.

omitting*

[mcmcsalot]

im on an ipad now but i have a post drawn up showing the times i have pointed out sudgy is scum starting D1. I am worried the same thing that happend D2 is happening again and this is my defense. I am not trying to make sure raerae is attatched to sudgy, it is just the only possibility from my point of view. On D2 raerae and sudgy kept bringing up my town read on robz and it seemed as though i had a strong town read on robz and that he might be my scum partner. In reality I had a slight town read on robz D1 and wanted to lynch mail-mi instead of robz. On day 2 I very much wanted to lynch sudgy but i instead lynched robz because i felt either it would be scum, or it would show we were not a scum team, my town read on him was legitimate and raerae and sudgy were both scummy for pushing for him. Today it seems like i have been pushing hard for raerae when agian I have found sudgy scummy from D1 and he is the lynch I am most comfortable with. I am worried people are trying to make it seem like I want raerae lynched so that i look scummy with sudgy.

I think what proves me is town is if you look back at my reads and the reads people had on me, I was the top town read of 3 confirmed town members and veterans, one of which is my brother. I have been making reads on everyone, analyzing post counts/wagons, and playing a very pro town game.

[raerae]

especially sudgy!

From my perspective since I know sudgy is scum the little raerae-mcmc argument was very interesting. I though raerae came across a little more towny that mcmc from it.

Kooshie, do you want me to go compile lots of reasons why you should think that sudgy is scum and present it? I'm thinking that maybe it's a good idea for each of mcmc and I to do this, and for sudgy and raerae to show why you should hammer mcmc instead.

Sure, go ahead.  Please.

Kooshie, I'm not really sure how much more I can say regarding mcmc.  If there's any of my argument against him that is unclear, I'd be happy to clarify or I'll reiterate if you'd like me to.

[mcmcsalot]

So here are three of the times this game I have found sudgy scummy and pushed for a sudgy lynch. This post is meant to show how I feel sudgy is scum and is the correct lynch for today and how I have found him scummy the whole game. I know kooshie didn't want us to start attacking eachother I just felt this was a good defense for the possible sudgy/mcmc scum team, I would've had to have this plan all game.

raerae is not mad shes very sassy, you will understand quickly.

also I don't give sudgy that much credit for the post he made

I'm mainly pushing towards things to get the game moving.  And I said you were just being slightly suspicious.  Just asking a lot of questions.  I'm not set in stone that you two are mafia, it's just that I felt doing things like this would let me see people's reactions.  If we got close to having all the votes for robz or you, I would consider it more seriously whether to still vote for you or not.

And if you guys think I'm over-analyzing, it's just how I play this game.  (you guys might not believe me, but oh well.)

He is mainly clarifying himself and doing it in a way I find defensive, I like the idea of pushing conversation along but the end part is something I can see scum saying. Like oh crap I guess I pushed too hard I should cover my tracks with a thats just me post.

I considered not saying the last part for that reason, but I felt like I should say it.  I was thinking that people would think I am scum and accuse me for that.

Wagons Ommited to keep post smaller
These were the three wagons of the day, people in parentheses were on wagon until just before the vote count, both times the person unvoted because they did not want them at L-1.

From looking at this I think the more important wagon is actually the one on sudgy, there are 2 confirmed town, sudgy was at L-1 for a little while, I know I'm town which means regardless of efhw's alignment sudgy has to be scum. There is no reason one and possibly two scum had the chance to hammer sudgy but decided not to. Efhw jumping off wagon once it was at L-1 is less scummy than I first thought because it was her that brought sudgy to L-1, had she been on the wagon for a while it would have been very scummy but it instead looks like good town play.

It also suprised me that raerae was on robz for every wagon, this combined with the fact that I already felt her reads were weaker than I excpected looks alot like scum trying not to make waves.

These are the two things that stand out to me the most and I am going to vote: sudgy

I invite everyone to further analyze the wagons and express opinions.

[mcmcsalot]

this was meant to be added

So I was just going to change my vote to sudgy, I have made it clear my top three scum reads are efhw, sudgy, and koshie. Then I realized I voted for mail-me for lurking. This is every player in the game I haven't played with, I'm worried I have tunneled the new players and I want to go back and reread the other players, I suggest the rest of the veterans do the same.

While I stand by my previously mentioned scum reads and would support a sudgy lynch I'm not ready to cast my vote till I make a reread of the vets.

[Jorbles]

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

Want to note that after today I'll be V/LA for two weeks vacation.  I'll have some intermittent mobile access and whatnot, but if the game is still ongoing, my trusty butler can handle it.

"I am on it, sir."

OOC: I am monitoring things. With only me monitoring there may be long periods between a lynch and a flip. There may be a long twilight if it doesn't happen when I am checking things. I will check at least once every 24 hours though, and usually more. In the event of twilight, only alive players may post (whoever was lynched isn't officially dead at this point and can post). If it looks like twilight is going on for more than an hour or so, anyone who has modded a game and isn't in this one is authorized to lock the thread.

[Robz888]

I will be able to post a lock if I see a hammer. Cheers.

[sudgy]

So, is anything gonna happen?  Nothing much has been going on recently, and the suspense is killing me...

[raerae]

Kooshie, do you have any thoughts you'd like to share/us to comment on? Has everybody said enough or do you want to hear more from anybody?

[liopoil]

I'm going to make a big post sometime soon.

[liopoil]

Okay, kooshie, here's why you should hammer sudgy:

a) raerae is scummy. IF raerae is scum then sudgy is scum, so raerae being scummy is sudgy being scummy. Here's why raerae is scummy:

-She didn't unvote mcmc earlier today when we were worried about quickhammers
-She had a scumread on robz and pushed it hard all D1 but when an actual wagon formed D2 she backed off. Seems perfect to do as scum, get the lynch through, but not be under suspicion once robz flips town, as scum! raerae would know he would.
-has decent post count but I personally don't strongly remember a lot of the things she's said, unlike others. Not that she's lurking, but has  successfully made her posts stay under-the-radar.

b) sudgy is scummy:

-bounces around and redirects lots. Has deflected to another player every time he is in danger of being lynched. Has changed his vote many times and seemingly keeps changing reads to fit whatever lynch he might be able to push through that isn't himself. Don't let him do it again.
-says "that's just me" a lot
-if sudgy was town, then even if mcmc was scum sudgy is still likely scum. At one point jimmm, efhw, robz, and mcmc were all on the sudgy wagon D1 when it took 5 to lynch. If sudgy was town then I was scum and would have hammered sudgy

c) mcmc is towny. if mcmc is town sudgy is scum.  However, mcmc is not towny at all. Still worth noting that if he's town sudgy is scum.

d) I am towny. If I am town then sudgy is scum. I can show you all the towny things I've done if you want.

I feel like I have more to say. I'll add it if I think of it.

[raerae]

My vote on Robz:

I don't know, guys. I'm about ready to seriously look at Robz. He posted here around 2am Friday morning the not for the rest of the day though he was active in other games. He came back today, posted in other threads, ignored this one...again. We're really only 8 pages into the game and shouldn't really be that hard to throw a few thoughts down. I really had high hopes for Robz to guide and give advice this game but he's disappointed so far.  As hard as he fought to get in and stay in, it seems he'd be more invested.

Sorry but Vote: Robz

And me saying I don't believe he's scum.

@raerae -- I agree.  Not sure if it makes him Mafia, but it is disappointing.  Are you suggesting lynching him because he's not participating or because you think that points to him being scummy?  I don't know him, but maybe he's town and finds that boring? (That's not a good reason not to play, of course.)

I'm not convinced he's scum (he just hasn't said enough yet!) so this was more of 'Hey, I know you've been gone but you're back now and you were around but not posting on this day and I'd really like you to say something because you are experienced and the new newbies could benefit from thay and maybe you have better ideas for how to move this along than we do so please get your booty in here and say stuff' kind of vote.  It is documented elsewhere that he prefers playing scum (see Buffy) but he's smart enough to know his meta so I don't think we can rely on that to determine his alignment. Additionally, I think Robz reads scummy to people who haven't played with him (totallly guilty).

I was only ever on Robz for lurking.  He started participating in D2 therefore I had no reason to try to get him to participate. 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the exercise to state your case on the persons in danger of being lynched? 

[sudgy]

I don't remember deflecting D1 to another person...

[sudgy]

Also, liopoil, it's funny how in my earlier post I said the exact opposite of who has been scummy and such...  (other than me)

[liopoil]

raerae, a case on you is a case on sudgy. If kooshie thinks that you are likely to be scum she should be more inclined to hammer sudgy. same thing with if she thinks I am town.

[raerae]

raerae, a case on you is a case on sudgy. If kooshie thinks that you are likely to be scum she should be more inclined to hammer sudgy. same thing with if she thinks I am town.

So why aren't you voting for me?  Seems like you've narrowed the scum team to myself and sudgy.  What makes the sudgy lynch more appealing?

[sudgy]

raerae, a case on you is a case on sudgy. If kooshie thinks that you are likely to be scum she should be more inclined to hammer sudgy. same thing with if she thinks I am town.

So why aren't you voting for me?  Seems like you've narrowed the scum team to myself and sudgy.  What makes the sudgy lynch more appealing?

He's said, just in case mcmc/me is true, I'm the "safer" lynch.

[raerae]

raerae, a case on you is a case on sudgy. If kooshie thinks that you are likely to be scum she should be more inclined to hammer sudgy. same thing with if she thinks I am town.

So why aren't you voting for me?  Seems like you've narrowed the scum team to myself and sudgy.  What makes the sudgy lynch more appealing?

He's said, just in case mcmc/me is true, I'm the "safer" lynch.

That doesn't seem like a great reason.  We're at lylo.  I don't want to go for the "safe" lynch.  I want to go for the for sure lynch.  Lio, tell me, if we lynch sudgy today and he flips scum, what's the likelihood you'll lynch me tomorrow?

[liopoil]

not certain by any means. I'm not sure it is even more likely than an mcmc lynch tomorrow. I think mcmc is very scummy.

I know sudgy is scum. However, kooshie doesn't. Kooshie does know that sudgy is definatly more likely scum than raerae, and that mcmc is definatly more likely to be scum then liopoil. This is why we are lynching mcmc or sudgy today.

[raerae]

not certain by any means. I'm not sure it is even more likely than an mcmc lynch tomorrow. I think mcmc is very scummy.

I know sudgy is scum. However, kooshie doesn't. Kooshie does know that sudgy is definatly more likely scum than raerae, and that mcmc is definatly more likely to be scum then liopoil. This is why we are lynching mcmc or sudgy today.

Ok, so play along.  We lynch sudgy today and he flips scum.  Who do you lynch tomorrow.  Mcmc or me?  Why?

[liopoil]

I just said I was undecided... It also might depend on what happens at night.

[raerae]

Sudgy, we lynch mcmc, he flips scum, who do you kill tomorrow?  Me or lio?  Why?  (Sorry Kooshie, just assuming you'll die tonight since no case can be made against you.)

[liopoil]

well, if sudy flips scum I am also IC, and if mcmc flips scum raerae is IC. so scum would have a choice between the two of them.

raerae: we lynch mcmc, he flips scum, who do you kill tomorrow, me or sudgy?

raerae, sudgy would kill me because you cannot be mcmc's partner, only sudgy's partner. If you were mcmc's partner you would just hammer sudgy and win.

[liopoil]

Kooshie, I think you can go ahead and hammer someone now. Not much more to be said.

[ashersky]

I am around for a bit, if that matters.

[sudgy]

Kooshie, I think you can go ahead and hammer someone now. Not much more to be said.

I agree.  And raerae, I will vote for liopoil tomorrow if I'm still alive (most likely would be dead by lynch obviously).

[sudgy]

Kooshie, I think you can go ahead and hammer someone now. Not much more to be said.

I agree.  And raerae, I will vote for liopoil tomorrow if I'm still alive (most likely would be dead by lynch obviously).

Saying if I die, I would most likely die by lynch.

[liopoil]

If sudgy dies at night then I am confirmed scum

[Kooshie]

Kooshie, do you have any thoughts you'd like to share/us to comment on? Has everybody said enough or do you want to hear more from anybody?

I think everybody has said enough, but feel free to keep on posting, if you feel the need.

[raerae]

Kooshie, our deadline is the 17th, take however much time you need to hammer.  I would like to hear what your thoughts are though.  Assume we lynch scum today and Ash locks the thread right away.  Whatever you're thinking will be invaluable tomorrow.

Lio, sudgy, at this point I'd be willing to vote for either of you.  Don't rush the IC.  This game is in her hands and that's a crap move on both your parts.  There is no reason to rush this vote when we have plenty of time left on the clock.

Since that isn't an option, lio has been very in line with mcmc all game but most notably today (I'll post quotes when I have more time) so he's my preferred lynch tomorrow.  I am still inclined to believe sudgy has been overzealous newbie town all game. 

Sudgy, please give reasons for lynching lio (should you both be alive tomorrow), please.

[liopoil]

raerae, I would be all for taking our time if there was anything left for us to say.

[mcmcsalot]

she just means let kooshie reread everything, there is a reason I am not posting much there is very little for me to say but there is much for kooshie to read, I agree to letting kooshie read as long as possible.

[Kooshie]

I'm going to hammer tomorrow at the latest.  After that I will not have great and often access to this and the internet and such for four or five days, so if by some chance I don't get NKed, it'll be why I'm not posting.  Not that I am now.. Sorry!!!

Right now, mcmc looks pretty scummy.  He said he was worried about people thinking that what he was saying about everything for scum setting things up for them.  Of course he would be worried!  If he's scum, he doesn't want people to know he's scum!  and if he's town, he doesn't want to lynch himself, along with town!  Along all the reasons raerae has said, which I don't feel the need to repeat.  Sudgy stated reasons, too, but I personally find raerae's more helpful.

But then there you go.  Me not liking sudgy's reasons.  He's all over shady.  Like liopoil said, he's covered a bunch of stuff up with, that's just me and how I play.  I understand, it's newbie stuff.  I was very tempted to do that very same thing on many of my posts.  Efhw said IMO a lot.  But sudgy...  he might as well have flat out said, "Don't judge me, because I'm me!" and, of course, because all the reasons liopoil and mcmc have said nI find him scummy.  But mostly liopoil.  Mcmc's reasons I think aren't quite as good as liopoil's, but definitely better than sudgy's.  Could this be a coincidence?  The two people I have to choose from to lynch both have slightly less helpful reasons for me?  I think not.  I'm staying with my former thoughts of a mcmc/sudgy team.

raerae and liopoil's reasons have been very convincing, and have brought me over to each side many times.  Now I'm on both sides, but I do find it more likely for sudgy to be scum.  Not with raerae, but mcmc.  I'm still not going to vote...  I'm sorry to keep you hanging, but I'd like a few more minutes to think...

Wait, actually, isn't the deadline the 22nd?  maybe I'll hammer later than tomorrow.

[sudgy]

raerae, I would be all for taking our time if there was anything left for us to say.

This was what I was thinking too.  I would rather get on with the game than just sit here doing nothing.  Any way of getting on with it would be fine.

Raerae, I'll try to reread liopoil at some point (probably not this very moment, but soon) and say why I think he's scummy.  I remember thinking he was scummy earlier, but I can't quite remember why...  Although mcmc's trying to redirect efhw's vote on D1 from liopoil is something I can remember right now...

[sudgy]

Alright, managed to get that done sooner than expected.  First, he was lurking a fair bit at first.  A bit later, we were talking about how lurking is scummy and he suddenly started posting more.  He seemed to be tunneling a bit on kooshie, not that much though.  One big thing is that until recently (when suggesting me/mcmc as a scum team) he has never considered mcmc as scum.  He never mentions anything about mcmc being scummy when almost everybody else did.  Also, sometimes, when someone thought of lynching someone other than mcmc, he usually would jump onto it (I can provide examples of this if you want).

[raerae]

Exact quotes would be helpful if you can.

[raerae]

Also, I have somebody coming into town for the weekend so not sure how much I'll be around.  Ash/Jorbles, when exactly is deadline again? 

Kooshie, if you can hold off hammering until I post my case on lio, please do.  I don't want to die without having given you quoted reasoning.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.8:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil {L-1}

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[sudgy]

(I looked at all of liopoil's posts and found a whole lot of posts that showed him going for the town and never for mcmc (or more, never even mentioning him).  It is probably too much.  Oh well.)

(Also, I didn't quote any of his case on Kooshie, you should remember that)

I would be okay with LALL today. It's been proven to work surprisingly well. Would also consider a sudgy lynch now that kooshie probably won't be lynched today. I need to re-read sudgy.

For LALL I don't think robz deserves his V/LA pass anymore. It's been a couple days since and his posting hasn't increased much.

If we LALL that day, who would die?  Two townies.

So if we LALL it should be robz or mail-mi, as they have half of everyone else. Among the other 7 of us we are all within 17 posts of each other. As of now I do not think it is fair to accuse anyone that isn't robz888 or mail-mi of lurking. However, the two of them are lurking so bad that lynching one of them may be our best bet. miss-lynching a lurker does not hurt nearly as much as lynching a non-lurker, because lurkers weren't contributing much in the first place anyway. As for which of robz/mail-mi we should lynch if we decide to lynch a lurker, I am not sure.

Same thing here.

@raerae: I do not really support a mail-mi lynch. At this point I would really prefer a robz888 lynch to a mail-mi lynch, for reasons I've mentioned. I still would like to lynch kooshie more than either one, but it seems at this point the rest of the town is pretty much set on LALL

He could also have been wanting to lynch robz because he was a vet and would be more dangerous.  And he's still mentioning Kooshie (confirmed town).

My order of who to lynch, from my choice lynch to worst lynch:

kooshie
robz888
mail-mi
EFHW
sudgy
Jimmmmm
Mcmcsalot
raerae
Liopoil

Four on the top six are dead.  All were town.  The one at the top is confirmed town.  Mcmc is near the bottom.

Vote: Robz888

I find his certainty about sudgy rather scummy. I would not be surprised by a mcmc-robz scumteam trying to get an easy misslynch of sudgy. I am voting robz instead of mcmc because robz is saying less, and I got a towny feel from mcmc's posts in D1.

Now he's going for Robz, a confirmed townie.  And when mcmc gets a little bit of suspicion, he tries to stay away from it.

I'll be fine lynching either one, but I won't throw the hammer if I can until the end of the day.

Throw the hammer?  Neither of them are at L-1, and you already voted.  What do you mean?

well, he can only be voting for one of them. He is referring to a situation in which he COULD throw the hammer. He says that he would wait until nearer the deadline I think.

we have two votes on each of the three main suspects. Kooshie, you are the only one not voting. You have been discussing things without taking a side. FoS. (for what it's worth, Kooshie is still near the top if not at the top of my scumreads. Nobody seems to agree with me so I haven't pushed it, or bothered voting)

Here he still mentions he is suspicious of Kooshie.


Also, I remember that liopoil was the first to suggest mcmc/me.  If he hadn't done that, and we lynched mcmc and he flipped scum, we would lynch liopoil the next day.  So, he tried to divert attention away from himself even if he was the only other suspect (at the time of his making the post).

[Kooshie]

Also, I have somebody coming into town for the weekend so not sure how much I'll be around.  Ash/Jorbles, when exactly is deadline again? 

Kooshie, if you can hold off hammering until I post my case on lio, please do.  I don't want to die without having given you quoted reasoning.

Sure thing.  The deadline is on the 22nd, so you have plenty of time.  As do I.

[Kooshie]

This post is in reply to sudgy's post, since quoting would take up too much space.
Right now, I would just like to say, you've mentioned him going on townies a lot.  We didn't know that they were town then, so don't get too far ahead of yourself.  This post is very short.  I will make a bigger one soon. Just needed to say that.

[mcmcsalot]

One thing that continues to interest me about raerae is her continued defense of sudgy and now stating to make a case on liopoil. town!raerae has no idea of the setup and sees potential scum teams in sudgy/mcmcsalot and mcmcsalot/liopoil but continues to defend sudgy and push against me and liopoil. Town!liopoil has made the intelligent conclusion that I'm his eyes there are legitimate scum teams in mcmcsalot/sudgy an raerae/sudgy. It makes sense for sudgy to make cases on me and liopoil as it makes sense for me to make cases on sudgy and raerae, me and sudgy regardless of alignment know exactly who scum is. It is raerae and liopoil who are only knowledgable if they are scum.

[sudgy]

This post is in reply to sudgy's post, since quoting would take up too much space.
Right now, I would just like to say, you've mentioned him going on townies a lot.  We didn't know that they were town then, so don't get too far ahead of yourself.  This post is very short.  I will make a bigger one soon. Just needed to say that.

The point was that while he was accusing a lot of different people, he rarely ever even mentioned mcmc.

[sudgy]

Oh man, in my dream last night it turned out liopoil/kooshie was the mafia team...  And we were getting mad at kooshie for not ending the game sooner...

[liopoil]

should get mad at me too for not hammering mcmc

[sudgy]

I couldn't quite remember who the other one was, I just think it might have been you.  But I know kooshie was one.  (But we should probably get back to normal posting though)

[liopoil]

okay. "I, as town, know that sudgy is scum for certain. Therefore: DoubleVote: sudgy". See, nothing new to say.

[liopoil]

Actually, I think there is more to say. Here are some more reasons to lynch sudgy!

Also, just curious, are we allowed to PM each other (not that I'm saying I want to, just for future reference)?

a question that Scum!sudgy would be more interested in the answer to than town!sudgy because he wants to talk to his scummate

raerae: I used to suspect you, but now I'm seeing that's just how you are.  You have a pretty big town read from me at this point.
mcmcsalot: I've got a pretty big town read on you.  Either you're town, or very good mafia.
kooshie: Also a pretty big scum read from me, reasons shown by liopoil.

Has a strong townread D1 on both of his potential partners, and sheeped my case on a now conf. townie. From his perspective it was an easy misslynch that luckily wasn't pushed through.

I think sudgy has become my biggest scumread, for a few reasons:

He's said a lot and given a lot of reads without actually giving many reasons or cases. That is, he seems to be saying a lot without saying much, and the reasons he has given haven't been that substantial. For example, raerae asking questions, raerae unvoting. Granted, a lot of that happened in semi-RVS, but the reasons were carried out of RVS. Then in his #435, he gives a view on everyone, and is giving "pretty big" reads, but very few reasons, or just other people's reasons. He's currently voting Kooshie without giving any of his own reasons, just talking about liopoil's "evidence", which is consistent with classic scum sheeping. So it seems like if sudgy is scum, then he is following liopoil into the Kooshie lynch with the aim of blaming lio for it tomorrow and pushing for the lio lynch. I think this is enough for me to Vote: sudgy and see what people think.

Jimmmm, a confirmed town, had a big scumread on sudgy. Not only are his reasons in-post a good reason to hammer sudgy, but Jimmmmm's death makes it stronger. From scum!sudgy's perspective that night Jimmmm was the most likely to investigate him if he was the town cop. jimmmm was the perfect NK for sudgy, and luckily for him he was a PR.

I would be fine with lynching mail-mi, but that would be kind of mean to him.  Mail-mi, I'll be "voting" for you, but not officially just in case you do end up getting lynched.

So he actually was on the mail-mi wagon essentially. easy dodge of suspicion when mail-mi flipped town, which he knew would happen. This actually worked for him. So he was on both of the misslynch wagons.

[sudgy]

First, I actually was on mail-mi's wagon.  I voted for him later.

Also, while I'm not going to mention much else in response to your post (we've been doing that too much), I even mentioned in that post that mcmc could have been a mafia.  When I was reading through his posts, I was thinking, "This guy gives me town vibes.  A little bit too much so.  I better watch him..."

[Kooshie]

I did say that I would make a post in reply to sudgy's post, but I just don't feel like it right now...  I want to reply to liopoil's post.  the numbers will be consisten with each quote and what was said.

1.  Why would sudgy say this, scum or no?  Didn't Ashersky say no PMing for game use in the rules, or something like that?
2.  Nothing to be added is needed.
3.  Jimmmmm was, I think, correct in what he said.  But aren't we putting too much faith in what the towspeople said?  You say you're town, and yet you were certain I was scum.  Okay, If I were you, I would have thought I was scum, too.  But still.
4.  ...in case you do end up getting lynched.  Basically saying, I don't want to be blamed for your mislynching.
This was more of comments on liopoil's quotes, and not what he said.  Except for #2, but does that really count?

[ashersky]

They can hear tiny clicks and scuffles from behind the wall.  Then a loud crash.

Um, guys...in case you didn't know, I am tied to a chair which is now on its side.  The rats are big enough that they are looking me in the eye.  And they look awfully hungry.

[sudgy]

They can hear tiny clicks and scuffles from behind the wall.  Then a loud crash.

Um, guys...in case you didn't know, I am tied to a chair which is now on its side.  The rats are big enough that they are looking me in the eye.  And they look awfully hungry.

Wait, you can move still?  Or did the rats push you over?

[Jorbles]

Jorbles dusts a series of marble busts silently. Murmuring to himself about how unfortunate it was that they had been left so unclean.

"I do hope we find Master Ashersky with his head intact. It would be a shame for his face not to be added to the family collection."

[mcmcsalot]

Okay kooshie, you need to make your decision soon, you realize that after lynching me or sudgy if you hit scum, there is another day where scum can win and you are making it much harder for town to make the correct decision by taking this long, I am sorry to hurry you but at this point it is negatively affecting town.

[Kooshie]

i will make my decision tomorrow at the latest, because I want liopoil to post why he is town, like he suggested he could a little while back.  i know that i said that before, but this time I mean it.

[liopoil]

Sure! WARNING: the following is probably somewhat biased. Many of these points could be explained away by saying "could be scum trying to look towny". Nothing I can really do about that.

you say that if a cop comes forward and you are the doctor you should protect the cop. I'm not so sure about this. if there is a cop and doc then there is also a role-blocker. roleblocker will block the cop, so maybe it is worth saving somebody else. Not sure about this though... This makes the cop less valuable, because once the cop hits scum once there is a 50-50 chance that the cop will never get another result. unless we lynch the roleblocker. If the roleblocker is lynched and you are the cop you should come forward and the doc will protect you, at which point town will be well on its way to victory .

Theory talk over. RVS time.

Vote: sudgy for being the last one to post. this is only 99.9% RVS.

Pro-town theory talk early D1. Hasn't mattered so far though. I also RVSed scum! and it was only 99.9% luck!

--Early D1 case on Kooshie--

Yes, while I was mistaken about kooshie, I still maintain that this was by far the best case at the time. I thought that making a huge post anaylzing everything a person has said is good for town. Also note that this was a very risky post to make if I was scum. If we had lynched Kooshie I would have been in big trouble.

POST COUNT!

EFHW: 49
Mcmcsalot: 49
Raerae: 43
Liopoil: 41
Sudgy: 39
Jimmmmm: 34
Kooshie: 32
Robz888: 16
Mail-mi: 16

I make a post count. I'm in the middle here. We seem to have gotten unlucky that the bottom 4 were all town. anyway, I thought a post count would be a good idea. I make another one later I believe. (the numbers for sudgy and I were off by one. I didn't count the post count itself for me, and I counted a time when Jimmmmm said "Isotopic username: sudgy". (Isotropic misspelled so as not to mess up later post counts)).

mail-mi: do not claim until someone voices an intent to hammer. sudgy already claimed VT which give scum one fewer person to shoot at if they want to hit PR, that is, unless sudgy is scum. This is why claiming is anti-town and shouldn't be done unless you are going to be lynched if you don't. OR you are a cop with a scum result, but that's different.

Here I mention something that is beneficial for town, and bad for scum. Unfortunatly mail-mi claimed VT anyway, but it didn't end up mattering.

Ash, if we agree, can we have an extended twilight until the deadline after we hammer? Or request to auto-hammer at deadline?

Would also be benificial for town. It wasn't allowed, but was worth a shot.

Final Vote Count:
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

Not on mail-mi wagon. I said all along I prefered a robz lynch. Unfortunately, he was town too. And I was on the robz wagon the next day.

Jimmmmm was killed during the night.  He was the Town Cop.

EFHW didn't die. If I was scum killing EFHW would have been the obvious choice. She had a scumread on me, and thought kooshie was town. Clearly killing her was the best option. I also didn't really have a reason to kill jimmmmm, apart from him being a vet and all...

here's mcmc's reasoning I think:

Yesterday it took 5 to lynch, and there are two scum. Jimmmmm and mail-mi are both town, and were voting sudgy. at one point, efhw and mcmc were both voting sudgy as well. This means that he was at L-1. He's saying that there are only two possible explanations for sudgy not being hammered:

a) both mcmc and efhw are scum. mcmc says that he knows this isn't the case, because he knows he is town. The same is true for EFHW.

b) sudgy is scum.

if neither A or B are true than mcmc says that there would therefore have been at least one scum that wasn't on the wagon who could have hammered, but didn't. mcmc says that he doesn't believe this would happen. therefore he concludes that one of A or B must be true. Mcmc says he knows that A is not true, and so he concludes that B is true. EFHW should conclude the same if she is town and also thinks that scum would hammer in this situation.

If I am scum, then sudgy is town. if I am scum, then there was a point during D1 when I could have hammered town!sudgy, but didn't.

Really, right now voting is anti-town. I'm going to be even more suspicious than I already am of a sudgy-raerae team if they don't unvote...

Not liking anti-town things. kooshie did this as well.

d) I am towny. If I am town then sudgy is scum. I can show you all the towny things I've done if you want.

Follows through on promise!

Quote: this post. This post is towny.

obviously this post is very one sided. I do think that some of these points are very valid though. So kooshie, if you believe that I am town, you should hammer sudgy, because if I am town then sudgy is scum.

[liopoil]

*anticipates hammer soon*

[ashersky]

"Psst, guys!  Good news!  The rats aren't going to eat me.

Bad news...they died of dehydration.  I think I'm next!  Hurry and save me!"

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.9:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil {L-1}

Not Voting (1): Kooshie

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on February 22 at 4:00 p.m. forum time.

[raerae]

Kooshie! I'm back in town and really want to post about lio before you hammer. Please please wait if you can. Unfortunately, I can't post until around 10 EST tonight.

[sudgy]

You know, all these posts are biased...

[sudgy]

You know, all these posts are biased...

And I didn't notice this next page.  It's in response to liopoil's post.

[liopoil]

Of course it's biased! I want kooshie to think correctly that I'm town and sudgy's scum, so anything I say is solely to try to get that to happen! sudgy raerae and mcmc have very similar biases, so anything any of us say can't be taken at face value.

[liopoil]

I was just making a case why I'm town because kooshie asked me to.

[sudgy]

I was just making a case why I'm town because kooshie asked me to.

I know, I just thought about it when you were talking about how the post was biased.

[liopoil]

hmmm. Well, that one was especially because I was talking about myself.

[Kooshie]

Liopoil, in your big post you say that at one point you could have hammered sudgy, and didn't.  I'm doing this from my phone, and it's hard to go between pages, so could you post that vote count?

[sudgy]

(You can push the "all" button to get the whole thing at once)

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

EFHW was the last to get on my wagon and the first to get off.  This was right after he unvoted.

[Kooshie]

(You can push the "all" button to get the whole thing at once)

Vote Count 1.11:

Kooshie (2): liopoil, sudgy
Robz888 (1): raerae
Mail-mi (1): kooshie
sudgy (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, mail-mi

Not Voting (2): Robz888, EFHW

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 4:30 p.m., forum time, on Monday, February 4.

EFHW was the last to get on my wagon and the first to get off.  This was right after he unvoted.

she

[sudgy]

Sorry...

[Kooshie]

In liopoil's post, he says he could have hammered sudgy, and didn't.  this is true.  Doesn't this make him confirmed town?

[Kooshie]

I'm sorry, raerae.  I can't wait for you to make your big post.  it probably won't matter anyway, since i think liopoil is confirmed town. i will wait for a bit , but that is it.

[raerae]

In liopoil's post, he says he could have hammered sudgy, and didn't.  this is true.  Doesn't this make him confirmed town?

Still working on my lio thing but wanted to comment on this.  I don't believe it makes him confirmed town.  That was D1 and if I remember correctly, that wagon came up darn fast.  I had loudly opposed it and I think there were others not sold on the idea.  We still hadn't really heard from Robz so more than a few people wanted to wait for him to say something before lynching.  It would have been reckless and suspicious to hammer at that point.

[raerae]

OK, I still don't understand the rush but I'll post what I have done so far.

In post 891, he quotes sudgy being OK with the mail-mi lynch but not actively participating.  He fails to mention that he offered intent to hammer after Kooshie’s mislynch wouldn’t go through.

At this point I am willing to if nobody else has already said that they are going to.

Post 832, he declares sudgy & mcmc to be the most likely scumteam.

I would agree that the sudgy-mcmc is looking like the most likely scumteam from my perspective.

Post 854, the task was to post a case on the lynch target you’re voting for yet lio decided to start his case on sudgy by making a case on me then states:

raerae, a case on you is a case on sudgy. If kooshie thinks that you are likely to be scum she should be more inclined to hammer sudgy. same thing with if she thinks I am town.

He had just identified the scumteam.  If he really believed that, the above post would have been a case on how those two tied together.  What changed in those 22 posts?  Mcmc popped in and said raerae/sudgy is the only team possibility from his perspective which paves the way for lio to push that same argument.

But then, in post 862, he can’t answer the question of who dies tomorrow if lynch sudgy today.  Seems pretty clear that eight posts before that, he had picked out the scumteam. 

not certain by any means. I'm not sure it is even more likely than an mcmc lynch tomorrow. I think mcmc is very scummy.
I know sudgy is scum. However, kooshie doesn't. Kooshie does know that sudgy is definatly more likely scum than raerae, and that mcmc is definatly more likely to be scum then liopoil. This is why we are lynching mcmc or sudgy today.

[liopoil]

I don't think it quite makes me confirmed town. I would agree that it a big mark in favor of me bieng town, but I suppose there always is the possibility that I'm scum that was scared of looking bad or something.

[liopoil]

I never said I was certain about the scumteam. I still think it is slightly more likely to be mcmc-sudgy, because mcmc I think has been slightly more scummy than raerae. that could change though. If we lynch sudgy tommorow I will do full rereads on both of them. there are good reasons to believe either one of them is scum.

[raerae]

I never said I was certain about the scumteam. I still think it is slightly more likely to be mcmc-sudgy, because mcmc I think has been slightly more scummy than raerae. that could change though. If we lynch sudgy tommorow I will do full rereads on both of them. there are good reasons to believe either one of them is scum.

But you said a case on me is a case on sudgy.  If I'm town, or at least more likely to be town than mcmc, your argument makes zero sense.

[raerae]

And Kooshie, I'm not going to keep up my lio case if you're going to vote sudgy today so some indication of what you're going to do would be extra helpful.

[liopoil]

I see your point. I do believe you have a slightly less than 50-50 chance of bieng scum. I was more making the point that it is only slightly less, so that making the arguement, "raerae is towny, so mcmc is scumm, so lets lynch him instead of sudgy" isn't very strong. I was listing the arguements one could make about why sudgy is scum. Saying raerae is scummy is one of those potential arguements, while in this case I don't think it is very strong. I should have been more clear.

[Kooshie]

In liopoil's post, he says he could have hammered sudgy, and didn't.  this is true.  Doesn't this make him confirmed town?

Still working on my lio thing but wanted to comment on this.  I don't believe it makes him confirmed town.  That was D1 and if I remember correctly, that wagon came up darn fast.  I had loudly opposed it and I think there were others not sold on the idea.  We still hadn't really heard from Robz so more than a few people wanted to wait for him to say something before lynching.  It would have been reckless and suspicious to hammer at that point.

    I see.  I'll wait until tomorrow to vote, okay, everyone?  sorry for the holdup.

[liopoil]

....you are going to hammer eventually right?

[raerae]

As long as you hammer by deadline we should be happy as clams.

[sudgy]

If you didn't realize this Kooshie, liopoil isn't confirmed town because if he had lynched me he wouldn't have won, it would have been suspicious, etc.  You are confirmed town because if you were scum and lynched one of us, you would have won, didn't have to worry about being suspicious, etc.

[raerae]

I need to sleep.  Sorry this is all I have.  Will try for more tomorrow if Kooshie hasn’t hammered by the time I’m around.

Post 798 looks a lot like posts that make sense to Kooshie.  I’ve never seen lio do this.  Subtle buddying?  I don’t know.  It just stuck out to me because it doesn’t follow his normal post pattern.  In addition to this buddying, there’s a bunch at the beginning of D3 when votes were flying, Kooshie mentioned unvoting, and lio immediately agreed and tried to paint me scummy for not unvoting.

This one was actually worth quoting the full post.  We know that either lio or sudgy are scum?  Scumslip?  If not, I don’t understand what he’s trying to say.   

There are actually three possible scumteams: liopoil-mcmc, raerae-sudgy, and mcmc-sudgy.

From my perspective the first one is impossible. Sudgy is in both of the other  two. Kooshie, at this point there really is no reason for me not to vote. We already know that one of me/sudgy is scum, so Vote: Sudgy.

[sudgy]

It's simply that either me or liopoil are scum.  The three possible scum teams are mcmc/liopoil, mcmc/sudgy, and sudgy/raerae.  They all have either me or liopoil in them.

[raerae]

But he already ruled the one with him out so it should have been between sudgy, raerae, and mcmc.

[liopoil]

But sudgy is in both of the remaining scumteams, so I know he is scum. I don't know if his partner is mcmc or raerae.

[raerae]

But sudgy is in both of the remaining scumteams, so I know he is scum. I don't know if his partner is mcmc or raerae.

But then why include yourself? That's my hangup here.

[liopoil]

include myself in what? where?

[Kooshie]

....you are going to hammer eventually right?

yes!  of course!  I'm thinking that your case on you being town is better than raerae's case on you being scum.  I'm sorry, raerae, but I think I'm going to lynch sudgy.

[mcmcsalot]

There are actually three possible scumteams: liopoil-mcmc, raerae-sudgy, and mcmc-sudgy.

From my perspective the first one is impossible. Sudgy is in both of the other  two. Kooshie, at this point there really is no reason for me not to vote. We already know that one of me/sudgy is scum, so Vote: Sudgy.

He is reiterating the same point. Firs he says there are three teams and rules out the first one. Then he points out at that time sudgy was voting for liopoil, which means on of sudgy and liopoil has to be scum, since liopoil sees this and knows sudgy has to be scum, he feels comfortable voting for sudgy.

[liopoil]

If kooshie does in fact hammer sudgy, when he flips scum I will be conf. town, as well as kooshie. so the last scum will kill one of us two. In the case that I am NKed I would like to say that I support an mcmc lynch over a raerae lynch tommorow. If I am NKed be especially suspicious of mcmc, kooshie.

[raerae]

If you're confident the go aahead and hammer.

[raerae]

Ugh, wait wait wait. One more question. In what scenario do we NOT lynch mcmc tomorrow? If we all agree that's the tomorrow lynch, and we don't all agree it's the today lynch (all meaning lio, kooshie, and myself), why don't we do that today?

[sudgy]

Since it appears I'm going to be lynched, gg, and congratulations on winning mcmc and liopoil.

[mcmcsalot]

We don't lynch mcmc tomorrow when he reiterates his case on raerae and the defense of himself. I have barely posted because of this very reason, everyone does not agree I am the lynch tomorrow, I think kooshie finds my towny, that would be why he wants to hammer sudgy. Liopoil is up in the air I believe. Raerae you are the only one along with sudgy who is dead set on me being scum.

I have explained before this is a strong case for a scum team from the two of you. Town!raerae thinks scum could be mcmc/sudgy or mcmc/liopoil so you would want me lynched I see that. But you seem so strongly against sudgy being scum. Scum!raerae is okay with scum!sudgy dying but wants to make sure town!mcmc dies next. You saw an opportunity to get me lynched first an just win today. You have also continued to stall the day which is horribly anti town, getting reads right and a the correct lynch tomorrow gets harder with ever real life day we sit here doing nothing.

Also Asking people to give there concrete vote for tomorrow is ridiculous, there will still be night actions, we don't know who will be alive tomorrow.

[liopoil]

I'm not necessarily going to vote for mcmc tomorrow. I'm going to re-read mcmc and raerae tommorow, post things and listen to what others have to say. Then I will decide. Currently I am leaning mcmc. First I want to get the sure lynch on scum, so we have more to analyze tomorrow when we need to make the bigger decision. (liopoil being conf., maybe dead town, who got NKed and which would raerae/mcmc prefer to NK, etc.)

[raerae]

First, I just want to be sure to clarify that I wasn't demanding anybody list their vote for tomorrow.  That was a request for an if/then statement.  Por ejemplo, (assuming sudgy is lynched and flips scum) IF mcmc is night-killed, THEN I'd suspect kooshie.  (Obviously, that was for example purposes only.)

Second, if I'm scum, I'm an idiot.  At this point, I've garnered relatively little suspicion so for me to be so damn loud against my "partner's" lynch this far into the game is beyond stupid.  Earlier in the game, sure, I suppose it wouldn't have been awful scum play, but now, it's just idiotic for me to be this loud if I'm scum.  If I were scum, it's much safer to sit back and be relatively quiet and hope Kooshie lynches town but not be too bummed if she hits my partner.  It is SUPER safe to be wishy-washy because if she would pick scum, you could point back to a post and say, "See!  I told you that person was scum! I'm obvTown!"  Basically, if I were scum, this is the most dangerous game I can play and it is not a winning strategy.  If you lynch sudgy and he flips scum, I will fall so far off my chair it's ridiculous. 

I disagree that slowing down this day is anti-town.  If we hit scum and I'm NK'd, you damn-well better believe that I want my thoughts out there.  Going to your death without saying anything this far into the game is bad town play.  I've made my thoughts on mcmc and sudgy perfectly clear and hadn't said a thing about lio.  I don't regret getting those out there and I hope they can be helpful tomorrow.

[sudgy]

You better lynch soon, though, the deadline is coming up.  (I'm not saying anything much because I feel I already have and if I'm lynched it doesn't matter much anyway)

[raerae]

And another thing about sudgy, one of the arguments against him is his use of "that's just how I play."  Yes, I agree that's a crap defense but TONS of vets get away with it.  Glooble lurks, Eevee buddies, Robz just generally acts skeazy, I'm loud and sassy; we play the way we play and it's sort of crap to hold it against somebody.

OK, I promise I'm done now.  Do what you gotta do, Kooshie.

[liopoil]

You aren't an idiot if you're scum. having a townread on your partner is a fine strategy because you could say, "why would I have a townread on my partner?" which is exactly what you're doing. if you are scum you are in a decent position because there is a good chance you will get the mcmc lynch tommorow if not today.

[Kooshie]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!  Mcmc, I do not have a town read on you.  In fact, I'm think that I'll vote you instead of sudgy.  I just wanted to make that clear.  I had a new reason...  I forgot.  I'm going to post this, but then reread a bunch of stuff and try to remember.

[liopoil]

Kooshie, you should really post your thoughts. It's fine to be undecided for so long, but you should say what you think and we can comment on it to help you. the deadline is on friday.

[Kooshie]

I crossed out a liopoil/mcmc scum team on my chart.  That was incorrect: it was still possible as the only votes were on liopoil and mcmc.

I was the first to notice this.  i'm pretty sure both mcmc and liopoil were both on at this time, and if they were town, wouldn't they, as town, want all of the facts straight?  Even if they, as town, know that team is impossible since they, at least are town.  I know I would correct it if someone else made that chart and/or that mistake, with me in the impossible scum team they mentioned.  This was my reason...  looking back upon it, it wasn't very good, was it?
On the other hand...
In liopoil's "I'm town" post, he says that his big post on me was risky.  Which it was.  This leads me to lean on a town read for him.  Which completely contradicts my reason above.  All together i think liopoil is town, but mcmc is scum.  Since liopoil would be town, then sudgy would be scum.  I'm still hanging onto that scum team.  I am going to vote sudgy soon.  If I'm NKed, then if I were alive I would vote mcmc.  Of course, this is if sudgy flips scum.  If he doesn't, then it doesn't matter who I would vote for.

[sudgy]

I crossed out a liopoil/mcmc scum team on my chart.  That was incorrect: it was still possible as the only votes were on liopoil and mcmc.

I was the first to notice this.  i'm pretty sure both mcmc and liopoil were both on at this time, and if they were town, wouldn't they, as town, want all of the facts straight?  Even if they, as town, know that team is impossible since they, at least are town.  I know I would correct it if someone else made that chart and/or that mistake, with me in the impossible scum team they mentioned.  This was my reason...  looking back upon it, it wasn't very good, was it?
On the other hand...
In liopoil's "I'm town" post, he says that his big post on me was risky.  Which it was.  This leads me to lean on a town read for him.  Which completely contradicts my reason above.  All together i think liopoil is town, but mcmc is scum.  Since liopoil would be town, then sudgy would be scum.  I'm still hanging onto that scum team.  I am going to vote sudgy soon.  If I'm NKed, then if I were alive I would vote mcmc.  Of course, this is if sudgy flips scum.  If he doesn't, then it doesn't matter who I would vote for.

You should vote for the person you think is with the more scummy of liopoil or raerae.  While you think mcmc/me is scum, there still is a possibility that liopoil or raerae are scum.  If you think liopoil is more scummy than raerae, vote for mcmc.  If you think raerae is more scummy than liopoil, vote for me.  I'm not quite sure what you think on that though, so vote for who you will.

[Kooshie]

Raerae and liopoil... raerae and liopoil.
I'm not quite sure what to think.
Liopoil, IMO, is just naturally suspicious, and his personality just subtly suggests scum to me.
Raerae, like many a person has said, is sassy.  She is right to the point, and that invites people to think scum of her.
Sudgy, I've been going on who's more scummy: you or mcmc.  It's come out as you.  But your suggestion of looking at raerae and liopoil got me thinking of another point.  Maybe this is what you meant: who's a more likely scum team, liopoil/mcmc or raerae/sudgy?  I would have to go with liopoil/mcmc.  I'll have to think, though.  What do you guys think?

[liopoil]

that's not strictly true sudgy. She thinks sudgy-mcmc are the two scummiest in the game, but if she thinks one of them has been especially more scummy than the other she should vote for them, also taking into account raerae/me.

Kooshie, when I saw the post where you crossed out teams I just assumed you got rid of all the dupicates, and didn't look closely. There were lots of other teams on that chart that weren't possible either, because there were then and still are only three possible teams. I knew this so kind of skimmed over that. I don't know about mcmc though.

[liopoil]

I'm not naturally suspicious, I'm towny! here, have a host of reasons why!:

Sure! WARNING: the following is probably somewhat biased. Many of these points could be explained away by saying "could be scum trying to look towny". Nothing I can really do about that.

you say that if a cop comes forward and you are the doctor you should protect the cop. I'm not so sure about this. if there is a cop and doc then there is also a role-blocker. roleblocker will block the cop, so maybe it is worth saving somebody else. Not sure about this though... This makes the cop less valuable, because once the cop hits scum once there is a 50-50 chance that the cop will never get another result. unless we lynch the roleblocker. If the roleblocker is lynched and you are the cop you should come forward and the doc will protect you, at which point town will be well on its way to victory .

Theory talk over. RVS time.

Vote: sudgy for being the last one to post. this is only 99.9% RVS.

Pro-town theory talk early D1. Hasn't mattered so far though. I also RVSed scum! and it was only 99.9% luck!

--Early D1 case on Kooshie--

Yes, while I was mistaken about kooshie, I still maintain that this was by far the best case at the time. I thought that making a huge post anaylzing everything a person has said is good for town. Also note that this was a very risky post to make if I was scum. If we had lynched Kooshie I would have been in big trouble.

POST COUNT!

EFHW: 49
Mcmcsalot: 49
Raerae: 43
Liopoil: 41
Sudgy: 39
Jimmmmm: 34
Kooshie: 32
Robz888: 16
Mail-mi: 16

I make a post count. I'm in the middle here. We seem to have gotten unlucky that the bottom 4 were all town. anyway, I thought a post count would be a good idea. I make another one later I believe. (the numbers for sudgy and I were off by one. I didn't count the post count itself for me, and I counted a time when Jimmmmm said "Isotopic username: sudgy". (Isotropic misspelled so as not to mess up later post counts)).

mail-mi: do not claim until someone voices an intent to hammer. sudgy already claimed VT which give scum one fewer person to shoot at if they want to hit PR, that is, unless sudgy is scum. This is why claiming is anti-town and shouldn't be done unless you are going to be lynched if you don't. OR you are a cop with a scum result, but that's different.

Here I mention something that is beneficial for town, and bad for scum. Unfortunatly mail-mi claimed VT anyway, but it didn't end up mattering.

Ash, if we agree, can we have an extended twilight until the deadline after we hammer? Or request to auto-hammer at deadline?

Would also be benificial for town. It wasn't allowed, but was worth a shot.

Final Vote Count:
mail-mi (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, sudgy, Kooshie, Robz888

Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

Not on mail-mi wagon. I said all along I prefered a robz lynch. Unfortunately, he was town too. And I was on the robz wagon the next day.

Jimmmmm was killed during the night.  He was the Town Cop.

EFHW didn't die. If I was scum killing EFHW would have been the obvious choice. She had a scumread on me, and thought kooshie was town. Clearly killing her was the best option. I also didn't really have a reason to kill jimmmmm, apart from him being a vet and all...

here's mcmc's reasoning I think:

Yesterday it took 5 to lynch, and there are two scum. Jimmmmm and mail-mi are both town, and were voting sudgy. at one point, efhw and mcmc were both voting sudgy as well. This means that he was at L-1. He's saying that there are only two possible explanations for sudgy not being hammered:

a) both mcmc and efhw are scum. mcmc says that he knows this isn't the case, because he knows he is town. The same is true for EFHW.

b) sudgy is scum.

if neither A or B are true than mcmc says that there would therefore have been at least one scum that wasn't on the wagon who could have hammered, but didn't. mcmc says that he doesn't believe this would happen. therefore he concludes that one of A or B must be true. Mcmc says he knows that A is not true, and so he concludes that B is true. EFHW should conclude the same if she is town and also thinks that scum would hammer in this situation.

If I am scum, then sudgy is town. if I am scum, then there was a point during D1 when I could have hammered town!sudgy, but didn't.

Really, right now voting is anti-town. I'm going to be even more suspicious than I already am of a sudgy-raerae team if they don't unvote...

Not liking anti-town things. kooshie did this as well.

d) I am towny. If I am town then sudgy is scum. I can show you all the towny things I've done if you want.

Follows through on promise!

Quote: this post. This post is towny.

obviously this post is very one sided. I do think that some of these points are very valid though. So kooshie, if you believe that I am town, you should hammer sudgy, because if I am town then sudgy is scum.

[Kooshie]

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery funny, liopoil.  I said naturally suspicious, not scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

Post 765 My origional post about all possible scum teams which includes me and liopoil

at this point possible scum teams are:

(my perspective)
sudgy/raerae and raerae/liopoil

(anyone's perspective)
sudgy/raerae
sudgy/mcmcsalot
liopoil/mcmcsalot
liopoil/raerae

Post 771 when you mention all the scum teams incorrectly

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

Post 772 My immediate response clarifying the only possible scum teams

What about Kooshie?

There has to be one scum between me an raerae, if we were both town scum would hammer me and end the game. The same goes for you(refering to liopoil) and sudgy, if you were both town, scum would hammer you.

To explain further kooshie/liopoil would both hammer me and win, kooshie/sudgy would both hammer me and win. Kooshie/mcmcsalot would hammer liopoil and win, kooshie/raerae would hammer liopoil and win.

Kooshie is confirmed town.

Post 775 You again incorrectly list the scum teams this time crossing out me and liopoil

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

You repeated many teams. Mcmc would be correct about kooshie being confirmed town if it weren't for the fact that she and her partner might not have been online at the same time yet. This possibility is why we should unvote.

About the repeated teams, I know, but my mind works smoother when it's set up like that. If i'm scum, we do know that you and mcmc aren't my partners.  Same with you and mcmc both being scum.  I have put lines through those teams above.  Also, even if I'm town everyone should unvote!

I did not feel the need to clarify, I posted the possible scum teams correctly twice and gave explanations of why, honestly I was confused by your graph of so many non possible teams.

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae and liopoil... raerae and liopoil.
I'm not quite sure what to think.
Liopoil, IMO, is just naturally suspicious, and his personality just subtly suggests scum to me.
Raerae, like many a person has said, is sassy.  She is right to the point, and that invites people to think scum of her.
Sudgy, I've been going on who's more scummy: you or mcmc.  It's come out as you.  But your suggestion of looking at raerae and liopoil got me thinking of another point.  Maybe this is what you meant: who's a more likely scum team, liopoil/mcmc or raerae/sudgy?  I would have to go with liopoil/mcmc.  I'll have to think, though.  What do you guys think?

I think you have been vocal of a sudgy lynch, I think sudgy who posted as though it was game over thinks he is very scummy in your eyes. He thinks that if he can get you to look at raerae and liopoil you will find liopoil more scummy and it will save him.

[liopoil]

True. It's good reading though, read it again!

[raerae]

GuysKooshie, assuming you're town, there are four people spewing their views out and about, trying to convince you to believe as they do.  Read their arguments, listen to yourself, but make up your own mind.  Sheeping somebody's argument in LyLo with two scum because you think that person is town is bad news.  We really need town to decide independently what is best for town.

Hint.  Hint hint hint.  Hintidy hint hint hint.

[Kooshie]

Read what, exactly, again?

[Kooshie]

Post 765 My origional post about all possible scum teams which includes me and liopoil

at this point possible scum teams are:

(my perspective)
sudgy/raerae and raerae/liopoil

(anyone's perspective)
sudgy/raerae
sudgy/mcmcsalot
liopoil/mcmcsalot
liopoil/raerae

Post 771 when you mention all the scum teams incorrectly

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

Post 772 My immediate response clarifying the only possible scum teams

What about Kooshie?

There has to be one scum between me an raerae, if we were both town scum would hammer me and end the game. The same goes for you(refering to liopoil) and sudgy, if you were both town, scum would hammer you.

To explain further kooshie/liopoil would both hammer me and win, kooshie/sudgy would both hammer me and win. Kooshie/mcmcsalot would hammer liopoil and win, kooshie/raerae would hammer liopoil and win.

Kooshie is confirmed town.

Post 775 You again incorrectly list the scum teams this time crossing out me and liopoil

What about Kooshie?

yeah, what about me?  Here all the possible teams, plausible or no:
Kooshie/liopoil, Kooshie/mcmc, Kooshie/raerae, Kooshie/sudgy,
Liopoil/kooshie, Liopoil/mcmc, Liopoil/raerae, Liopoil/sudgy
Mcmc/kooshie, Mcmc/liopoil, Mcmc/raerae, Mcmc/sudgy
Raerae/kooshie, Raerae/liopoil, Raerae/mcmc, Raerae/sudgy
Sudgy/kooshie, Sudgy/liopoil, Sudgy/mcmc, Sudgy/raerae
I got everyone, right?

You repeated many teams. Mcmc would be correct about kooshie being confirmed town if it weren't for the fact that she and her partner might not have been online at the same time yet. This possibility is why we should unvote.

About the repeated teams, I know, but my mind works smoother when it's set up like that. If i'm scum, we do know that you and mcmc aren't my partners.  Same with you and mcmc both being scum.  I have put lines through those teams above.  Also, even if I'm town everyone should unvote!

I did not feel the need to clarify, I posted the possible scum teams correctly twice and gave explanations of why, honestly I was confused by your graph of so many non possible teams.

Yeah... sorry about that.  I understand now.  i should have thought that through.

[Kooshie]

GuysKooshie, assuming you're town, there are four people spewing their views out and about, trying to convince you to believe as they do.  Read their arguments, listen to yourself, but make up your own mind.  Sheeping somebody's argument in LyLo with two scum because you think that person is town is bad news.  We really need town to decide independently what is best for town.

Hint.  Hint hint hint.  Hintidy hint hint hint.

Okay.  Vote: Sudgy and I will vote mcmc if I survive the night and sudgy flips scum.
I will be dreadfully sorry if he's town.  But now it's all said and done, and fellow townies, all we can do is hope.  Hope for the best, for the flip of scum.  For the lynch of mafia.  For my reputation...

[Galzria]

THREAD LOCKED!!!

[ashersky]

The five remaining dinner guests were exhausted.  It had been quite a long day.  Quite long.

Kooshie made up her mind.  She walked over to where the sleeping figure of Jorbles leaned against the wall.  She tapped him on the shoulder.

"Oh, my, what, wait, who?"  Jorbles looked around for a moment, then dusted off his jacket and composed himself.  "My apologies.  A great butler never sleeps on the job.  But you all, really."

Jorbles pulled out the hammer he kept in his back pocket at all times and handed it to Kooshie.  She walked up to sudgy, held down by liopoil and mcmcsalot.  Sudgy didn't even fight back.  Turns out he was asleep.

Kooshie raised her hand, hammer poised, and looked around one last time.  "This is it.  Let's save ashersky!"  She brought the hammer down square on sudgy's face.  It make a squooshie sound.

Mcmcsalot and liopoil wiped the blood from their faces, as though they were used to being covering in blood, as though they had killed before, perhaps at night?  They turned to Kooshie and raerae, guns pointed at them. 

"It looks like we've got you.  This is the end of the game for you."  Mcmcsalot nodded to liopoil.

"But mcmc, why not let them at least see poor ashersky one more time?" liopoil asked.

"Sure, that works."  He pulled out a garage door opener from his pocket and pushed the button.  The brick wall separating them from ashersky started to rise.  When the dust settled, they could see the overturned chair, and ashersky tied to it, unmoving.

"Huh, seems they were too late for him, too."

The mafia, mcmcsalot and liopoil, have won flawlessly.  Raerae and Kooshie have been endgamed.

[yuma]

nicely done!

[ashersky]

Final Vote Count:

mcmcsalot (2): raerae, sudgy {L-1}
sudgy (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil, Kooshie


With 5 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

[Galzria]

Well now, that was entertaining.

Don't feel too bad about it Kooshie, I've been in your situation plenty of times... And sad to say, but it's a WHOLE lot easier to make the wrong choice than to make the right one.

[ashersky]

Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/U5SqErUAuwN4

Having trouble getting the others.  Galz or someone, post the speccy?

[mcmcsalot]

gahhhhhhhhh, those 10 days were soooooo stressful.

Honestly everyone played amazingly that game. Raerae I wished so much we could've killed you instead of efhw I knew you would get me, it just didn't work to set up the scum team we needed.

[Galzria]

Spec: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/8NXNxK8F2dXV

Don't have mod QT.

[ashersky]

Mod QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/KLSELVZrrfaNC

[mcmcsalot]

I honestly thought you were jaiting on purpose and saying you would hammer but not just waiting for someone to break and slip up, note the few days of me just shutting my mouth.

Amazing job by liopoil to point out the mcmc/sudgy team I could have thrown it by not realizing.

[yuma]

yay! now Robz's game can open for signups... right... right...?

[liopoil]

Ash has been nightkilled, oh no! okay, which one of you did it?

I think it must have been jorbles. The ending flavor makes it very clear is wasn't us. plus he was totally suspicious in the very next post.

"I hope Master ashersky is alright. I hope there hasn't been another... murder.

I mean a... murder."

Vote: Jorbles
mcmc, you can go ahead and hammer. then we REALLY win

[raerae]

mcmc, post 76 in your QT gives me warm fuzzies

[liopoil]

gahhhhhhhhh, those 10 days were soooooo stressful.

Agreed. I don't know what I would've done if she had hammered you. I was thinking crazy things like not NKing anyone and then claiming doc. problem with that was that raerae would still be alive .

[Eevee]

Well played scum!

[yuma]

MVP?

[ashersky]

MVP: Liopoil

[yuma]

sad I missed out on the speccy fun... that is what I get for being a backup in one of the few games w/o any need for replacements... Which... by the way... well done everyone for keeping up with the game and staying committed throughout!

[yuma]

MVP: Liopoil

certainly a candidate for newbie performance of the year come December!

[raerae]

gahhhhhhhhh, those 10 days were soooooo stressful.

Agreed. I don't know what I would've done if she had hammered you. I was thinking crazy things like not NKing anyone and then claiming doc. problem with that was that raerae would still be alive .

Oh hush you both, I just found a gray hair.

[EFHW]

Do I get to say I told you so?

[raerae]

Do I get to say I told you so?

Not if I don't.

[raerae]

Seriousface though, newbies, you guys were super fun to play with and I hope you stick around and get in more games.  You guys are great!

[liopoil]

MVP: Liopoil

certainly a candidate for newbie performance of the year come December!

That's an actual thing? 

Now I have something to put in my signature, to copy ash, robz, mcmc!

Of course you get to say that!

[EFHW]

Do I get to say I told you so?

Not if I don't.

Sure you do!

[EFHW]

MVP: Liopoil

certainly a candidate for newbie performance of the year come December!

It was masterful.

[mcmcsalot]

Sudgy, it was very fun in a sick and twisted way that I knew you knew me and liopoil were scum.

To all those who said my hammer on robz was scummy, it was barely talked about in game. One thing I have noticed playing on forum mafia arguments move quick and fast and new ones can side rail argument very easily.

Also I knew it would look crazy scummy but robz was bringing me down, I wanted a flawless win. My mafia starting game was flawless and I wanted to keep the record going. I was confident in forcing a sudgy lynch the next day.

[sudgy]

Also I knew it would look crazy scummy but robz was bringing me down, I wanted a flawless win. My mafia starting game was flawless and I wanted to keep the record going. I was confident in forcing a sudgy lynch the next day.

And that's why I was pretty hopeless at the beginning of the day...

Also, Jimmmmm (I can't remember how many "m"s there are in there...) who did you suspect the first night?  I saw with my skim of the QT that it was either me or EFHW, but who was it?

[liopoil]

it was you, It's in the mod QT

[sudgy]

it was you, It's in the mod QT

Ah, didn't see it.

Also, Kooshie, after posting about my dream, I realized that if you thought enough about it, you would have realized I was town.  Why would my mind change my own alignment?  I thought of mentioning this, but it probably would have been way too suspicious...

[Jorbles]

MVP: Liopoil

Agreed.

[liopoil]

I realized this too... so tried to find something else to talk about...

I mean, you could have decided to post a fake dream.... but that's pretty crazy.

[mcmcsalot]

Sudgy I think your downfall was voting so fast, locking the teams was helpfull for me and liopoil because we could work as a semi unit and use all our scumhunting on you and raerae together. Had you all held off on voting and made cases of how scummy I was liopoil wouldnt be able to defend me and casting mass suspicion would only have looked more scummy on my part.

[Jorbles]

Good game, this was really interesting to watch. I thought mcmc's quickhammer was really really scummy, but it was interesting to see how the further away that got in time the less of an argument that was. I think the stalling really helped mcmc, because it made that become more distant in people's minds. I would have been voting for mcmc out of the gate at the start of d3.

[raerae]

mcmc & lio, any ideas who you would have night killed?  Just cuz I'm a curious old sort.

[Robz888]

That's why we don't let people get away with  quickhammers...

Kooshie's is a tough situation to be in, though. It's so stressful.

Well done, lio and mcmc!

[liopoil]

you mean if kooshie had hammered mcmc? ugh I don't know. Probably not kooshie because you wouldn't buy the whole "it must have been sudgy!" argument, you were already too set on me being scum. If I killed raerae it would look bad to kooshie... and if I don't kill anyone raerae is still alive... and if you no lynched then one would have to assume "scum sudgy" would "block" me, so I STILL wouldn't be able to kill raerae safely.

[shraeye]

That's why we don't let people get away with  quickhammers...

Kooshie's is a tough situation to be in, though. It's so stressful.

Well done, lio and mcmc!

Yup, I'm a huge proponent of lynching quickhammerers.

[raerae]

I tried, guys, I tried.

[EFHW]

It was so frustrating not being able to put my two cents in!  But it let me join another game, which is good.

[EFHW]

I tried, guys, I tried.

I thought you had some very good arguments.  I liked the part about falling off your chair if Sudgy is scum 

[Kooshie]

Sorry about losing this game for you, raerae and sudgy.  There goes my non-existent reputation! 

[raerae]

Sorry about losing this game for you, raerae and sudgy.  There goes my non-existent reputation! 

It's a game, darling, no worries.  Hope you had fun though!  And you learned something: Always listen to raerae.   

[Robz888]

yay! now Robz's game can open for signups... right... right...?

Yes. My game is open for signups: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7019.msg196101#msg196101

[Kooshie]

Sorry about losing this game for you, raerae and sudgy.  There goes my non-existent reputation! 

It's a game, darling, no worries.  Hope you had fun though!  And you learned something: Always listen to raerae.   

And....  okay, prepare for cheesiness...  always be yourself because otherwise you'll look scummy, and never ever trust someone who's name is a palindrome.

[mail-mi]

Well, that was interesting to watch. And to play... wait nvm. Being lynched on the first day isn't too fun.

Well done mcmc and liopoil, great scum. (is that a compliment? "You're great at being scum!" Imagine saying that to someone out of context.) My day one vote was right  !

[Galzria]

Oh! Kooshie, to explain my thoughts further and why I was leaning mcmc/sudgy over mcmc/liopoil:

At this point in the game, I didn't think scum would want to risk losing the game just to try and acquire a flawless victory. Thus I thought that IF scum could bus with a hammer, they would've done so long before the day got dragged on and on. If the teams were mcmc/lio (or even Raerae/Sudgy, although I didn't believe that), then one scum would have the opportunity to flip to his partner and hammer (in this case liopoil moving to mcmc).

Because that didn't happen, my best conclusion was that scum were already split between the two wagons, and thus could not switch to hammer. This only works if the team is Sudgy/mcmc.

Now, I realized (as noted in the spec QT) that from town!Raerae's perspective, the teams could ONLY be mcmc/Sudgy or mcmc/lio. In either case Raerae knew with 100% certainty that mcmc was scum.

The flip side, of course, is that town!liopoil knows with 100% certainty that Sudgy is scum, since the teams can only be Sudgy/Raerae or Sudgy/mcmc - and because of this if he WERE to switch to hammer his scumbuddy it would not be in keeping with his town persona, since why would any town switch from 100% scum to 50%?

However, things weren't nearly so locked at the start of the day, and I just felt that scum!liopoil would've looked harder for ways to bus, rather than let himself get trapped into being tied with mcmc. As such, even if I had lynched mcmc in your shoes, I would've gone into the final day more suspicious of Sudgy than Liopoil (had I lived the night).