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[Jimmmmm]

Hi all! It feels good to finally be Town (well, you know, "Station-aligned") again, and in fact playing again. This should be fun.

Vote: mom salon to see if it works.

[yuma]

why is that every game we have to have a conversation about whether or not to claim when the answer is always obviously no...?

From the OP:

These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum, exception being of course the cops, and the IC-variant if there is one.

The only information we can accurately gain from any sort of claim involves cops and potential ICs. Now is certainly  not the time for cops to be claiming... same as any IC that we may have.

I guess this sort of conversation is better than RVS, because it gets people to talk and such, but really the obvious answer is no.

[Galzria]

Robz, do you honestly think name claiming will help town more than scum? Like, do you really think Joth would make the setup solvable that way (I know the setup says names were rolled before alignment)? It just seems... I guess you would have to explain to me how it would be more pro-town than pro-scum. Every memory I have from any game to date where we've claimed anything has been of scum benefiting MUCH more. I would generally oppose name-claiming here, unless a really convincing reason could be given to do so.

[yuma]

No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.

What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).

Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.

I do not remember my flavour name. It is the least important part of the PM. It isn't like it has a bearing on the game, say like a number and card...

[Jimmmmm]

This may be true in general but I just want to emphasize this now: do not lynch me without giving me a chance to claim. If at any point in the game you want to put me on even L - 1, instead, announce your intent to do so and at my next availability I will claim. I will be pissed if you lynch me while I'm away.

[Robz888]

Robz, do you honestly think name claiming will help town more than scum? Like, do you really think Joth would make the setup solvable that way (I know the setup says names were rolled before alignment)? It just seems... I guess you would have to explain to me how it would be more pro-town than pro-scum. Every memory I have from any game to date where we've claimed anything has been of scum benefiting MUCH more. I would generally oppose name-claiming here, unless a really convincing reason could be given to do so.

I do oppose name claiming, now that we've established that names relate to role, rather than alignment. I previously thought bizarro scum were bizzaros of other player's flavor names.

I don't think Joth would make the setup solvable, but accidents happen. He evidently forgot to put that town players are "station-aligned" in the opening thread, and may/may not have told scum that town players are station-aligned. I mean, that was a mistake that was made, sort of.

[Eevee]

Oh obviously. I was hoping you'd ask, or rather thinking you not being curious about it seeming a bit scummy.

Fair warning, this game is going to be the weakest ever presented, seriously. But should help us getting the game along, and also I obviously see some merit to this or otherwise I wouldn't be posting it.

First! And I sure as hell claim town!

(Previous comment was in to the game in general, not to you. )

overly concerned to clarify you are not trying to pick a fight with me? Also, smileys are jokey, teensy bit scummy. TEENSY.

Then you make some jokey posts that don't really do anything (you said this yourself). Then you announce you've got to go and will only be phone-posting. Now, townGalz is known for being present and active, and I would assume scumGalz would want to try to replicate that. However, you announcing that felt a little forced to me given there was no active discussion going (and short jokey posts you could also do from your phone quite conveniently if you so desired). I know I want to announce the reasons for my legit periods of no access when I'm scum, so I can for example use the time I can "lurk" without seeming suspicious on actual situations I WANT to lurk in.



.. and that's it. AT LEAST I'M TRYING. Note, I didn't even vote Galzria for this so I don't think it's a very meaningful case. Still, got to listen to the gut. Galzria feels a very little bit off (Robz for example doesn't, I think he feels slightly towny even), above is my best effort at explaining this slightly uneasy feeling or my gutreadtaking-process in general. Feels almost embarrassing to post this, but oh well.

[Robz888]

I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.

[Robz888]

I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.

The reason is, I feel like it's something unusually tangible for this early in the game. Dsell made an excellent point, Joth corrected it, and Eevee gave a response. Was it a scum response?

[Eevee]

Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.

[theorel]

yay RVS...
Okay, so theory-wise, we know practically nothing.  So, let's go ahead and see what we know: (all of this has probably already been mentioned and can be found in the opening post, I'm just trying to condense it)
1. Everyone has at least a minor role.  (might be negative utility)
2. Flavor names are at least tenuously tied to powers.  (I'm assuming based on the "knowing more about the show will help you make guesses about people's roles")
3. "These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment."  (except the cops obviously)
4. There are 2 scum-"teams".  (one might be SK)

And, that's about it?

Okay, so first point of interesting theory discussion: "follow-the-cop".  This requires a doctor.  Let's suppose for a moment that Dr. Bashir has the doctor role.  Based on 3 above, he might be scum-aligned.  Based on 1 above this is a fully accepted possibility.  Of course there could simply be no doctor...I'll refer to the opening flavor post of the game: "Blood Tests, Scans, and Investigations".  Three flavors of investigation, with 3 investigators...coincidence?  I doubt it.  It might be that Dr. Bashir administers blood tests, which detect, say, changelings.  So, I don't think follow-the-cop is going to be very effective.  Nonetheless a cop claiming to take down scum is usually worth it, since the chance of protection might be sufficient, though not knowing the alignment of the cop definitely throws a wrench in things.  I think it's reasonable to discuss this at some point, should cop try to remain hidden and just push on the scum hard?

Second point: 2 scum teams, 15 player game, how big do you think they are?  Let's see: way back in IV I think our 15-player game maxed out at 4 scum (3 mafia + SK), and that still seems reasonable to me.  But 2 scum-teams, I'm a little less sure.  2 and 2?  That seems kind of low to me...3 and 3 seems ridiculous high though.  So, I'd assume 3 and 2?  Maybe it depends on the powers given?

Okay, let's suppose 5 scum for the moment as a kind of worst-case scenario.  Let's suppose that we NEVER hit scum, and scum never hits each other.  How many mislynches do we have before we lose?  2 NKs + lynch = 3 deaths.  Um, after 6 deaths we have 9 players which is pretty close to town loss (although we could pull out of it if scum shot each other).  So, town may lose after a second mislynch?  3 mislynches is pretty much a loss if we don't take out a NK earlier.  Obviously (as with all multi-scum games) there's a lot of variability here.  Scum shooting each other and successful protective roles being pretty major.  But I think especially because of that swinginess we should try not to walk into the lynch too quickly.  Let's see: 2 week deadlines this game, so day1 ends Jan 18, 7:10pm right?  Also, although we should take our time, we don't want to no lynch here (2 non-town directed deaths after skipping a lynch sounds like bad news).  I think soft deadlines help with that particular situation, so should we play as though the day were ending Wednesday Jan 16th?

Third Point: name-claiming.  Obviously bad, but given the confusions cited I can understand why some thought it was a good idea.

Flavor-wise I'll note that I have watched enough DS9 to find the opening flavor funny, but not enough to have intimate familiarity with the show, I knew who my character was without referencing the wiki though .

[Eevee]

I agree with theorel's suggestion to setting a soft deadline to Jan 16th 7:10pm forum time. Should pretty much guarantee we don't slide into nolynch.

Have we ever seen scum theorel? In VI, right? Is the long theory-filled posts-theorel just town theorel, or was scum theorel the same?

[Galzria]

I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.

The reason is, I feel like it's something unusually tangible for this early in the game. Dsell made an excellent point, Joth corrected it, and Eevee gave a response. Was it a scum response?

I really don't see what you're driving at here. Do you really think Eevee is scummy over that? His joke should've been obvious for what it was to anybody who has followed blitz games (which should include you). I mean, really? It's why when his post ninja'd mine, and I realized I might've come off as a jerk, I immediately corrected myself (which Eevee saw as being "overly concerned". I just didn't want to sound like a Dick.)

[Eevee]

I didn't (originally) realize your comment could be read / understood that way, Galzria. It makes a lot more sense now! Most of the scum read retracted.

[theorel]

Reading the 11 replies...
DSell-Eevee thing.  DSell seems townier, Eevee seems ever so slightly scummy.  Note: I don't think it was scummy of Eevee to claim "town" instead of "station", nor do I find it suspicious that he waited to respond until joth clarified.  The scummy bit is the initial explanation of why (i.e. "I didn't read my PM that carefully").  It just seems like the wrong reason...I mean really his explanation (Running gag from blitz) is sufficient, and it felt like he was trying to offer a fuller-than-necessary explanation.
Actually, I find Eevee having scum-reads at this point unusual for Eevee also.  I mean in my experience he's town-reads and happiness all through day1 as town.  This could be a sign of scum-Eevee trying to scumhunt effectively in order to appear more town?  (PPE: and then he retracts the scum-read, so I dunno even more.)

PPE: I think I provided a good bit of theory in VI also (I engaged ehunt pretty hardcore in the # of scum per team analysis).  Regardless, I'm self-aware enough to at least try to produce long theory-filled posts as scum.

[Eevee]

I didn't read Dsell's question until Joth had already made the ruling, fwiw.

[Eevee]

I think having scum reads / trying to scumhunt more aggressively is just me trying to play better and improve at this game. But fwiw, Dsell is obviously a pretty huge townread, also get a towny feel from Robz.

[Robz888]

I agree with theorel that we should use a lot of our time and not rush things. No bankable deadlines!

If Cops find scum, I think they should just come forward, yeah.

15 players should be 4 scum, right? 2 + 2 or 3 +1. 2 + 3 would be yuck, but I guess it's possible, depending on roles.

Galz, yes I find Eevee scummy for like three reasons I gave. The Dsell thing, and aspects of his response, including something he said that I do judge to be false, that theorel also picked up on: him not knowing his role PM and the setup or whatever. It doesn't fit Eevee; I'm pretty sure he's lying about this to inflate his case for why he didn't say station. He could be lying to inflate his case for why he didn't say station from a position of town or scum, but obviously it seems a bit scummy to me.

I didn't really get his case on you, although I think you're being fairly dense here.

[liopoil]

Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum  than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.

[Eevee]

Welcome, new guy! You seem to have a solid grasp on the game (I agree with all your points). What kind of previous experience with mafia do you have, if any? Have you been following any of the games here?

[Robz888]

Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum  than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.

I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.

It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.

[ashersky]

Eevee is scummiest so far, followed by theo.

Robz is town!robz so far.

I haven't gotten strong feelings from anyone else yet.

[liopoil]

OH, so could be a role thing he got in his pm  called hated or the sort which makes you die with fewer votes? I see; that's interesting. Eevee;  I have only played the basic mafia IRL, and I did read through a couple of completed games on this site.

[Robz888]

OH, so could be a role thing he got in his pm  called hated or the sort which makes you die with fewer votes? I see; that's interesting. Eevee;  I have only played the basic mafia IRL, and I did read through a couple of completed games on this site.

The thing with Hated is it's not such a big deal when it takes a lot of votes to kill someone--like now, when there are a lot of people alive.

But when we get down to it, say there are 5 people left, including 2 scum and Mr. Hated. Normally, the town can still win if they lynch a scum here. But with Mr. Hated around, both scum can instant vote for Mr. hated, and he dies, because it would only take 2 votes to kill him, instead of 3.

In Mafia XI, the game I moderated, Insomniac was Hated, and this issue almost came up. But the last remaining scum didn't take advantage of Insomniac being Hated, and instead night-killed him while there were still a lot of people left. The game did get down to 3 people, at which point, if Insomniac had still been alive in place of one of the two other town people, the scum would have won. Since this was not the case, he lost.

[ashersky]

Post count time?  LALL time.