Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All]

Author Topic: Which is the card you hate the most?  (Read 53801 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ARTjoMS

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Which is the card you hate the most?
« on: June 17, 2011, 09:59:52 am »
0

Which is the card that annoys you the most when you see it in the deck and opponent is going for it and successfully using it?

Mine is smugglers:i hate that one builds his deck based on what takes his opponent rather than his own plan, of course sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. If we both go for smugglers it leads to pretty miserable game.

Which cards makes you curse as you see it?

Logged
Quote
When a friend of mine sees a girl he finds attractive, he remarks how he'd like to "Throne Room" or "King's Court" her.
- Axe Knight

''Especially regarding such an iconic (and somewhat infamous) name that is known as ARTjoMS.'' - shark_bait is boosting my ego.

painted_cow

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 10:10:50 am »
0

Swindler for sure!
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 10:14:37 am »
0

Ambassador. I also don't like Black Market and tournament, among several others. But those are probably the top 3.

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 10:17:07 am »
0

Saboteur.  Makes for an ugly, ugly game.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 10:37:40 am »
0

Swindler for sure!
QFMFT

Flip a coin to see who wins: the card.
Logged

MrFrog

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Shuffle iT Username: MrFrog
  • Respect: +101
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 10:54:04 am »
0

Ambassador. I'll never get along with it...
Logged

Eagle

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 10:54:16 am »
0

Which is the card that annoys you the most when you see it in the deck and opponent is going for it and successfully using it?

Mine is smugglers:i hate that one builds his deck based on what takes his opponent rather than his own plan, of course sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. If we both go for smugglers it leads to pretty miserable game.

Which cards makes you curse as you see it?

I agree that smugglers is annoying..  "I worked for that gold, and he just got it for free!"

There's a list of cards that I don't especially like, saboteur, Treasure Map, swindler, etc.  But the only cards I usually decline are possession games, just because it's obnoxious..  and my most hated card for sure is Pirate Ship.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:56:20 am by Eagle »
Logged

Axe Knight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 11:08:14 am »
0

Smugglers does not bother me that much, as I try to time buying an important $5 or $6 card with when it's coming up in their deck, and, even if they get it, it doesn't usually hit well that often.

Possession is extremely annoying.  I lost to a level 0 player by one point after being ahead 3 Provinces when they King's Courted Possession.  I felt like I was being punished for having an efficient deck (or just being punished for failing to account for the possibility that KC + Possession could cause a huge swing, but that's another point).  And if both players have Possession and the kingdom cards are such that they're sabotaging their deck to prevent the other player from getting a big turn, well, that's not a whole lot of fun, is it? 

I'd have to go with Treasure Map.  I'd play with any of the other cards mentioned any day over Treasure Map.  When Treasure Map is in play, it brings back memories of games like Phase 10, where I'm praying for that Wild card to come along to complete my run.  Yes, sometimes there are cards in play that can help you make trashing two copies go quicker, but I'd rather just leave it out entirely.   

Logged
An Axe Knight draws near!  Command?

Randal FTW

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 11:18:46 am »
0

Smugglers AINEC. Pretty annoying when someone is leaching off your buys.

The only positive is that a lot of the people who abuse smugglers end up bloating their deck too much IME.
Logged
With No Power Comes No Responsibility

Stoc

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 11:22:01 am »
0

Treasure Map is number one for me, simply because it's "easy to get" for my opponents, and can win them the game outright if they're lucky.

Possession is a close 2nd for much the same reason. My current possession strategy is basically to make sure my deck never gets 'too good.' Rush green, try to pad my lead while intentionally cluttering my deck by taking duchies earlier than I otherwise would. It just generally makes for a very unsatisfying game, win or lose. Multiplayer is even worse because the value of Possession varies depending on the strength of the opponent behind you.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 11:27:58 am »
0

There are a number of anti-Possession deck types:

1. The really fast deck. Get a huge lead before the Possessions can catch up.

2. The really slow deck. Possessing a Gardens deck is usually not worth very much.

3. The really nasty deck. You want to Possess my Goons/Mountebank/Torturer? Much good may it do you.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Teproc

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 765
  • Shuffle iT Username: Teproc
  • aka Le Teproc
  • Respect: +356
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 11:28:59 am »
0

Possession and Familiar are the top offenders for me, but Possession is actually proposed, so I voted for that. Anybody who's been on the recieving end of Possession/Golem deck understands how horrible this card is to play against. Worst of all, I think people are overvaluing because of how horrible it feels when someone plays it, and are playing it more than they should, especially considering it is incredibly hard to get. I see people going for Possession as they only Potion card, and it should please me, because they lose so much time I'm likely to win, but it still annoys me because they're going to play it at some point.

As for Familiar, well, I actually think, now that I analyse it, that it's worse than Possession. The feeling of having 2 and a Potion on second turn of a Familiar game is just that horrible. It's turn 3, and you've basically already lost. At least with Possession, you're only losing on turn 15 or so.

I used to hate Treasure Map, but I don't anymore, because the card is just weak. Sure, you can get lucky, and it's annoying when it happens, but more often than not, seeing my opponent buy Treasure Map when no enablers are available is a pretty good sign.

I'm not sure what's so frustrating with Smugglers though. Sure, it's a variance card that can be frustrating at times, but I don't see it being anywhere the other cards mentionned it, or other not mentioned such as Sea Hag or Ghost Ship.

Edit : reading those answers, I have to agree with Swindler and Tournament being really up there too.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:30:49 am by Teproc »
Logged
Mafia play advice: If you are not content with the way the game is going, always assume that it is your fault.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 11:33:44 am »
0

Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually like possession. Jack Rudd points out that there are a lot of ways of dealing with possession on board. I find that often my opponents don't grasp this.

Taco Lobster

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 288
  • Respect: +74
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 11:36:55 am »
0

My beef with possession is that I like to actually play the game, which I don't get to do when possession is being used.  Particularly when there's a KC on the board, but also if there's something as simple as Village to get two off in a single round.  I don't understand why outpost has the "no more than two turns" clause, but possession does not.  Just adding that line of text would make me hate the card much, much less.
Logged

Elyv

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 12:00:19 pm »
0

I voted other because I hate tournament, but I can understand the frustration at possession; it's just not fun when the other person takes 4 turns in a row. I feel like possession would be a lot less hated if it had the outpost wording to prevent things like a king's courted possession.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2011, 12:04:29 pm »
0

The only time I hate Possession is when Ambassador and/or Masquerade are on the board.  Normally I love seeing Possession, because I'm quite possibly better at defending against Possession than any other skill in Dominion.  Seriously, I have a better win rate when I don't buy Possession than when I *do* gain a Trusty Steed.

As for Saboteur, Smugglers, and Treasure Map?  They're swingy, but most of the time they're just too weak for me to care.

The card I hate above all else is Torturer.  It's a powerful card that leads to really unfun games if your opponent gets his/her chain off first, and I'm actually very bad at constructing Torturer chains, so that happens a lot.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Axe Knight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011, 12:17:16 pm »
0

The card I hate above all else is Torturer.  It's a powerful card that leads to really unfun games if your opponent gets his/her chain off first, and I'm actually very bad at constructing Torturer chains, so that happens a lot.

I feel the same way about Ghost Ship.
Logged
An Axe Knight draws near!  Command?

Glooble

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
  • Respect: +61
    • View Profile
    • Solutions to Problems
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011, 12:20:10 pm »
0

I used to really hate Goons and Minions for the same reason - I thought they forced you into a particular stratey any time they were on the board. I'm not a huge fan of boards that force a mirror match. Lately, though, I've found myself learning ways to counter Goons players without buying Goons, and I find the card annoys me a lot less. Same with the Minion.

I guess Saboteur is the most annoying card for me. I actually love Smugglers. I love the randomness it adds to the game.
Logged

I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

He/ Him

Check out my podcast: www.stppodcast.com

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2011, 12:44:09 pm »
0

I am fine with all those cards, though Possession is a little *annoying* with King's Court out.

I actually really like Smugglers.  It helps alleviate the Turn 5 Wins that I loathe so much. 

I am OK with Treasure Map because the only people who buy it without support are bad enough that their chances of hitting the Maps are tiny.

I'm generally OK with Swindler, though I can see why people hate it.  Ditto for Tournament.

The cards I dislike most:

1. Familiar.  This card can be reworded to read: After Turn 2, roll 1d6.  If you roll 2 or lower, you lose, unless your opponent also rolled 2 or lower.

2. Scrying Pool/Golem.  Games take forever!

3. King's Court, when coupled with attacks.

4. Torturer with cheap +Actions.

5. Baron, since the 33% chance of not hitting your Estate is the difference between Gold and a crap $4 buy.
Logged

Mean Mr Mustard

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
  • First to 5000 Isotropic wins
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2011, 12:44:41 pm »
0

While being on the bad end of Possession and Torturer chains are no fun, I have to agree that what annoys me most is being Ghost Shipped every turn.  There are decent counters, like Menagerie, Scout, wishing Well, Scout, or Apothecary but without something like this I will usually concede after three or four turns in a row of GS.
Logged
Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2011, 12:44:57 pm »
0

The card I hate above all else is Torturer.  It's a powerful card that leads to really unfun games if your opponent gets his/her chain off first, and I'm actually very bad at constructing Torturer chains, so that happens a lot.

I feel the same way about Ghost Ship.
But Ghost Ship does not stack.
Logged

Death to Sea Hags

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2011, 01:38:12 pm »
0

1. Familiar.  This card can be reworded to read: After Turn 2, roll 1d6.  If you roll 2 or lower, you lose, unless your opponent also rolled 2 or lower.

There's actually quite a few of these cards or situations...
Logged

rogerclee

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2011, 01:58:54 pm »
0

I dislike cards that tend to reduce the number of viable strategies on the board to 1. Witch, Mountebank, and Torturer (if chaining is allowed) are the biggest offenders of this, and those are the last three cards I want to see when playing a level <20 player, especially Mountebank.

Cards like Possession actually have a significant strategy built around them, so even though they randomize the game a bit, I actually like the card. I think level < 25 players typically do not grasp how to play a Possession game.
Logged

drg

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2011, 02:08:24 pm »
0

I'm surprised swindler and black market didn't make the list of options.  Personally, for the way it affects the game's outcome, I hate swindler the most, it's the most random card along with saboteur, but saboteur is expensive, doesn't give the opponent money, and doesn't also put crap back in your deck.  Possession I also don't like, but a lot of it is because of how long it takes between turns once it gets going, and being able to possess someone 3+ times in a row is silly - time for a 15 minute break if that happens (decks obviously strong and cycling if you can do that).  Not likely to have a chance anymore after someone gets 4 turns either.
Logged

drg

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2011, 02:27:01 pm »
0

I dislike cards that tend to reduce the number of viable strategies on the board to 1. Witch, Mountebank, and Torturer (if chaining is allowed) are the biggest offenders of this, and those are the last three cards I want to see when playing a level <20 player, especially Mountebank.

If you're talking about cards that reduce the board to 1 strategy, don't forget goons, familiar and the most annoying of all... minion.  If course, you can always overlap these cards and the game becomes a bit more interesting... but incredibly brutal.

Swindler is the worst card to have vs weak players imo.  On the other hand, the almost as random saboteur is a card I don't want to see vs good players.
Logged

rspeer

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +877
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2011, 02:36:42 pm »
0

I don't mind Saboteur at all. Who cares if I lose a couple of cards -- if my opponent is playing Saboteur, it probably means I'm winning.

I'm going to fly my freak flag and say that I love Possession. Both playing it and defending against it, even though I'm not that good at it yet. You know how Chapel makes the game into a different game from the start? Possession makes it turn into a different game around mid-game.

The card that annoys me the most is, surprisingly, Stash. It's not bad enough to ignore, it's not good enough to be happy about getting one, and it makes an awkward fiddly interface pop up every time I shuffle.


I also don't like the way Followers kicks you while you're down.

Logged

rogerclee

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2011, 02:40:02 pm »
0

If you're talking about cards that reduce the board to 1 strategy, don't forget goons, familiar and the most annoying of all... minion.  If course, you can always overlap these cards and the game becomes a bit more interesting... but incredibly brutal.

Swindler is the worst card to have vs weak players imo.  On the other hand, the almost as random saboteur is a card I don't want to see vs good players.

This is true, but

1) While it's obvious to buy Goons when it's available, the way to use the card is not obvious, and "Goons games" have their own strategy to them. As an example, I think I lost a game to you recently when I did not appreciate how to properly build the engine, even though we both bought it. Even deciding when to start buying coppers is a nontrivial problem.

2) Sometimes it's right to ignore Familiar, but mostly I agree. The problem with the card is compounded by the fact that it's severely random, if you don't hit it on turns 3/4 that is the end of the game.

3) I have been thinking recently that Minion is not as dominant as people think. Yes it's very good, but it can be beaten by other engines, and determining which to go for is an interesting problem on some boards.

I didn't mention Swindler because even though it's a very annoying card, it isn't a substitute for an actual strategy, unlike Mountebank, where your strategy is probably just "play Mountebank as many times as possible."
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 02:42:18 pm by rogerclee »
Logged

drg

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2011, 03:01:07 pm »
0

Definitely true about goons, there are many ways to use the card, but it is always the dominant card when it is there and there is anyway of playing more than one of them on a turn.  Familiar is only safe to ignore if you can open with a different cursing attack on turn 1 or 2, barring heavy trashing, but you'll still have to get it a few turns later if you open chapel.  Minion dominates province games.  In colony games it needs something that works with it (festival, fishing village or other village and $ action card)  It's attack is seriously annoying though.
Logged

fp

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 94
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2011, 06:27:01 pm »
0

Cards I dislike for different reasons:

Hamlet-
With all of the options to click through, it makes games take much longer.

Ambassador-
Against a skilled player, you can count on an Ambassador game taking 25+ turns.

Tournament-
This card creates a positive feedback loop to the extreme.

Golem-
Tell you what, I'll go to the bar while you take your turn, when you are done, I'll be too smashed to resume playing.

I still love them!  :-*



Logged

ARTjoMS

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2011, 07:48:47 pm »
0

I'm surprised swindler and black market didn't make the list of options.
Added more options, one can change his vote.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 07:55:35 pm by ARTjoMS »
Logged
Quote
When a friend of mine sees a girl he finds attractive, he remarks how he'd like to "Throne Room" or "King's Court" her.
- Axe Knight

''Especially regarding such an iconic (and somewhat infamous) name that is known as ARTjoMS.'' - shark_bait is boosting my ego.

play2draw

  • Guest
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2011, 11:24:21 pm »
0

My vote goes to the Black Market. It's just too silly and random to be taken seriously. I've won and lost games simply because of the randomness of the cards drawn and available (e.g. buying the only Mountebank). Maybe as Dominion develops further this effect will be mitigated.

I don't mind possession, but I wish it couldn't be throned/kinged.
Logged

Jack Monkey Squat

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2011, 11:51:32 pm »
0

oooh... the thread I wanted to start when this forum was created... there are a LOT of cards I really don't like for a variety of reasons... possession, swindler and saboteur make the list because I feel like I'm entitled to my turns and the cards in my deck... tournament because of the tremendous snowballing advantage it gives the first player that hits the combo... pirate ship because those games tend to take forever, especially when there's no +$ +action kingdom cards... minion because those games take forever as people fish through their decks once the minion "engine" is rolling... king's court because of the massive swings that accompany the actions or lack thereof that it is drawn with...

but there's one card that nobody has mentioned thus far that I really don't like:  chapel, which I hate because much more often than not, it's a required buy... in most games, it takes away any other strategic choice... 13 of the top 27 openings involve chapel, nothing else comes close... it might be a little more interesting if it were a $4 card and someone opening 5/2 had to choose between mountebank or chapel, but as things are, there's no need to choose...

if I had to rank 'em, it's probably possession, tournament, minion, pirate ship and swindler as the top five, but I'm pretty much anti-all of 'em...

Logged

Nimmy

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2011, 04:50:36 am »
0

I hate torturer. When my opponent opens 5/2 and there is a native village/hamlet, I'm ready to quit.
Black Market is either fun or a game-breaker, depending on the cards in it. In a recent game, my opponent bought a ghost ship from the BM (with no attacks on the board) and then a King's Court for the BM. Talk about being lucky...

Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2011, 05:23:39 am »
0

I hate torturer. When my opponent opens 5/2 and there is a native village/hamlet, I'm ready to quit.
Black Market is either fun or a game-breaker, depending on the cards in it whether or not I draw the good cards from it. In a recent game, my opponent bought a ghost ship from the BM (with no attacks on the board) and then a King's Court for the BM. Talk about being lucky...

Fixed that to say what you meant to say.
Logged

PetterTB

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2011, 06:31:31 am »
0

I don't like alchemist or minion. Alchemist takes forever! Alot of spamming.. Minion as well, in addition to always drawing minion x4 festival or something before enemies minion..
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2011, 08:27:12 am »
0

I hate playing Alchemist/Herbalist engines on isotropic, but only because it makes you look through the whole massive text list of cards in your play area and click on each Alchemist individually every damn time ;)
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2011, 09:27:49 am »
0

I find torturers to be an unpleasant card. I don't really like games where both players buy the same villages and torturers but the game slides one way fast. It's not fun, to be honest, unless there are some other cards in the kingdom that give some way to deal with the curses.

Another personal dislike of mine is islands. Typically if both players open silver/island there's one player who sets an estate on the mat and another player with the island stuck in the deck. The unlucky player now has a decelerated deck, low spending, and problems buying terminals that might clash with the island. The lucky player has some acceleration, higher spending, and the deck will probably never draw badly since it has no clashing terminals and one less estate. There's also little chance for the unlucky player to use the island skilfully later; the best play was lost in the draw and can never be repeated. This leads to islands annoying me even more than swindlers and badly drawn chapels since at least you can use those again and again and might be able to turn things round later.
Logged

HLennartz

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
  • Respect: +17
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2011, 09:29:32 am »
0

Treasure Map for me. The rest of the cards can be frustrating, but I find the swinginess of Treasure Map to be even more frustrating. Tournament can be the same way.

And if I wasn't playing on Isotropic, I would totally hate Fairgrounds, Vineyard, and all those hard-to-count Victory cards.
Logged

hughes

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2011, 10:34:20 am »
0

Treasure Map for me. The rest of the cards can be frustrating, but I find the swinginess of Treasure Map to be even more frustrating. Tournament can be the same way.

And if I wasn't playing on Isotropic, I would totally hate Fairgrounds, Vineyard, and all those hard-to-count Victory cards.


If anyone has a good way to play with philsopher's stone in a RL game let me know.  I've told my friends, "It's not a bad card, but I don't want to play with it because of how much it would slow down a real-time game.
Logged

nemryn

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2011, 03:44:28 pm »
0

I hate playing Alchemist/Herbalist engines on isotropic, but only because it makes you look through the whole massive text list of cards in your play area and click on each Alchemist individually every damn time ;)
You'll usually have only one or two Herbalists, so clean them up first, and then the list will collapse down to just the Alchemists. I think that, strictly speaking, this isn't supposed to work, but it does.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2011, 07:07:44 pm »
0

You'll usually have only one or two Herbalists, so clean them up first, and then the list will collapse down to just the Alchemists. I think that, strictly speaking, this isn't supposed to work, but it does.
No.

Presumably you're using the Herbalist to load your Potion. Then your Potion is no longer and play, and your Alchemists go straight into your discard. I have made this mistake on isotropic before.
Logged

nemryn

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2011, 08:24:34 pm »
0

You'll usually have only one or two Herbalists, so clean them up first, and then the list will collapse down to just the Alchemists. I think that, strictly speaking, this isn't supposed to work, but it does.
No.

Presumably you're using the Herbalist to load your Potion. Then your Potion is no longer and play, and your Alchemists go straight into your discard. I have made this mistake on isotropic before.
That's how it's supposed to work, yeah. But I just tried it, and isotropic does indeed give you the option to put Alchemists back after you put Potions back.

Here: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/18/game-20110618-172052-36f3b3e7.html
Logged

Lenoxus

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Respect: +7
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2011, 09:31:44 pm »
0

Treasure Map for me. The rest of the cards can be frustrating, but I find the swinginess of Treasure Map to be even more frustrating. Tournament can be the same way.

And if I wasn't playing on Isotropic, I would totally hate Fairgrounds, Vineyard, and all those hard-to-count Victory cards.


If anyone has a good way to play with philsopher's stone in a RL game let me know.  I've told my friends, "It's not a bad card, but I don't want to play with it because of how much it would slow down a real-time game.

Ditto. My sister really likes it, but I just get bugged by all the counting. Which is hypocritical of me because I love taking long turns, but more by doing stuff, y'know. Plus, I dislike the luck-based "decision" of whether or not to play any card-drawers, given that it reduces the Stone's value.

Of course, the card-counting is just the inverse of the problem with cards like Hamlet, which is their taking too long in computer play. Maybe the ideal Dominion program would actually be less "question-asking" and more like playing with real cards, just giving you some relevant numbers throughout (like the current size of your deck) and telling you when you can't do what you just clicked.
Logged

Axe Knight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2011, 01:27:15 am »
0

Treasure Map for me. The rest of the cards can be frustrating, but I find the swinginess of Treasure Map to be even more frustrating. Tournament can be the same way.

And if I wasn't playing on Isotropic, I would totally hate Fairgrounds, Vineyard, and all those hard-to-count Victory cards.


If anyone has a good way to play with philsopher's stone in a RL game let me know.  I've told my friends, "It's not a bad card, but I don't want to play with it because of how much it would slow down a real-time game.

Ditto. My sister really likes it, but I just get bugged by all the counting. Which is hypocritical of me because I love taking long turns, but more by doing stuff, y'know. Plus, I dislike the luck-based "decision" of whether or not to play any card-drawers, given that it reduces the Stone's value.

Of course, the card-counting is just the inverse of the problem with cards like Hamlet, which is their taking too long in computer play. Maybe the ideal Dominion program would actually be less "question-asking" and more like playing with real cards, just giving you some relevant numbers throughout (like the current size of your deck) and telling you when you can't do what you just clicked.

Philosopher's Stone never particularly bothered me; perhaps I just count quickly.  However, we did once try something when Alchemy first came out.  We got a cardboard box, and made marks on it to line up where the cutoff was.  Keeping the discard pile face up and the deck face down preserved the split.  It sounded like an intriguing alternative when we first mentioned it, but was just way too clumsy in the end.  Constructing it was far more fun than using it.  I personally think Saboteur slows down the game more than PS.
Logged
An Axe Knight draws near!  Command?

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2011, 08:36:03 am »
0

That's how it's supposed to work, yeah. But I just tried it, and isotropic does indeed give you the option to put Alchemists back after you put Potions back.

Here: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/18/game-20110618-172052-36f3b3e7.html
Well, this is a bug, then. It allows you to achieve an impossible ordering of cards on top of your deck. And if you have 5+ Alchemists but want your Potion in your hand instead of near the top of your deck (which I had a game vs. Tribute recently where I wanted exactly that) you still have to click each one individually.

If Doug introduced a bug that allows you to cheat a little bit to save time... I'd much rather he had just changed the interface to say "hey, do you want to do the obvious thing and put all your Alchemists on your deck right now?" I'm guessing the ordering issue didn't occur to him. I'll geekmail him about it....
Logged

hughes

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2011, 09:46:26 am »
0

Treasure Map for me. The rest of the cards can be frustrating, but I find the swinginess of Treasure Map to be even more frustrating. Tournament can be the same way.

And if I wasn't playing on Isotropic, I would totally hate Fairgrounds, Vineyard, and all those hard-to-count Victory cards.


If anyone has a good way to play with philsopher's stone in a RL game let me know.  I've told my friends, "It's not a bad card, but I don't want to play with it because of how much it would slow down a real-time game.

Ditto. My sister really likes it, but I just get bugged by all the counting. Which is hypocritical of me because I love taking long turns, but more by doing stuff, y'know. Plus, I dislike the luck-based "decision" of whether or not to play any card-drawers, given that it reduces the Stone's value.

Of course, the card-counting is just the inverse of the problem with cards like Hamlet, which is their taking too long in computer play. Maybe the ideal Dominion program would actually be less "question-asking" and more like playing with real cards, just giving you some relevant numbers throughout (like the current size of your deck) and telling you when you can't do what you just clicked.


I was musing on a method involving some counter (probably percentile dice) to count the number of cards you own in total, but when I found that it didn't count the cards of own type (deck or in play or in hand, I don't remember which at the moment) I abandoned the idea and just decided to not play with it until I had a good method.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1757
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2011, 10:31:05 am »
0

Philosopher's Stone counts your deck and discard.  I have yet to play with it irl, but my idea was that if anyone wanted to buy it, you would just need to keep a tally of how many total cards were in their deck (adding or subtracting one any time they gained or trashed a card).  Then when they play PS, you just have to take this total number and subtract the number of cards they have in hand and in play.  I don't know how well this would actually work in practice, but I think it could work.

My least favorite card is definitely Saboteur.  As with all of these cards, I think our opinions usually come down to personal experience.

I think my perspective just comes from having bad luck and negative experiences with it (more than the other cards that can cause the same type of experiences).  I know I have lost a few games to players who bought one or two in the game and got lucky destroying my best cards instead of all the silvers I tried to block it with.  I know it is a bad card in this context and it is always frustrating to lose a game you probably statistically should have won. 

I also had a bad experience with it once when I was getting beat pretty handily by an opponent who had successfully built an engine that drew his whole deck each hand.  He ended up buying a Saboteur, and started blowing up my deck as he cruised to victory.  I may have brought this upon myself because I can't remember if I made the first move in buying one in a last ditch effort to get lucky, but still felt like an unnecessary course of action when he had the game in hand.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2011, 01:25:37 pm »
0

We were worried about Philosopher's Stone slowing down our games when Alchemy first came out, and then when we actually started using it we found it was no problem at all. It takes just a few seconds to count your piles, once on each turn that you play a Stone. Scrying Pool slows the game down much worse than Philosopher's Stone. Hell, boring old base-set Spy is worse at slowing down the game too.
Logged

Fuu

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
  • Shuffle iT Username: Fuu
  • Respect: +87
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2011, 01:43:21 pm »
0

Goons for sure. It totally changes the dynamic of the game, for the worse I think.

I think Minion takes some of the fun out of the game too, just because it is so easy to spam and is quite annoying. Possession also is quite annoying. These are the three cards I usually reject games for; sometimes Treasure Map too but less often.
Logged

rls22

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
  • Respect: +9
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2011, 01:43:43 pm »
0

Pirate Ship.  Hands down.  Caused by playing an offline game with 4 players, in which I had the last turn.  I had no money after only a few turns, and there weren't any cheap money-giving cards.  Worst game ever.  Now I just have an irrational hatred of that card...

I'll also add that I'm going through a phase right now where I'm just really bored with Ambassador.  I don't hate it, I just feel like Ambassador tennis is really boring, and even the "buy a curse and empty the curse pile on your opponent" thing, is only fun once or twice. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 05:08:01 pm by rls22 »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2011, 06:53:43 pm »
+4

Once in a while someone will mention to me, "you know, I don't like Dominion," and man I am fine with that. I am not too insecure on that front. It didn't win Austrian game of the year, that's how I put it. Anyway here you all are probably relatively fond of it, but feel free to hate whatever cards. I don't mind. There are certainly some love/hate cards.

Here then is what I think of these hated Dominion cards.

Possession: Possession has two possible problems in my book. First it has that gigantic FAQ. The FAQ might have killed it if there had been more time to work on the set. It's crazy long, even if mostly it just says, "yes really, they take a turn but you make the decisions." Second it's a love/hate card in a small set. You could argue that love/hate cards should be in large sets, where the hate matters less, because, you know, it's a smaller percentage of your cards. Whereas I don't think that diminishes love so much. Somehow. Anyway it was the first small set and I did not think about such things. Other than those things I like the card. I find it to be on the weak side; it kind of has a "fun tax" - cards that give you extra turns have to be weak in general so that players don't bore you too much with them. Not that Possession is boring. Anyway it was gonna be a love/hate card, no question, but there are people who love it and they couldn't play it if it didn't exist, and man it's easy enough to fight against. Don't build a deck that buys two Provinces a turn vs. Possession; that's a good place to start.

Saboteur: This has four strikes against it. First it's a way to trash people's precious cards. It is totally worth making some of those cards, for the people that adore them, but they need to be especially fun for those people, which Saboteur is not. Second it's an attack with no resource production. You know, it just attacks. That sounded fine to me, but it turns out some people don't like that. This isn't a love/hate thing though; no-one loves it. It's not important to the game to have such cards and I already did a couple, so I wouldn't be expecting too many more. Third it's weak. In fact it's the weakest card in the game, relative to its cost. Something had to be and well that something is Saboteur. Fourth it has lots of tiny text. That's something I like to reserve for really adored cards. Overall Saboteur is the Dominion card least justified in existing.

Smugglers: I like Smugglers a lot. Flavorwise it should probably be "non-vp card" rather than "card costing up to $6," but of course functionally it's significant that it isn't necessarily dead late in the game. I think Smugglers went over well in general and it looks out of place on this list to me. Sure your opponent might Throne Smugglers after you buy Gold or Duchy. Man, they're your opponent, they've gotta do something to bother you.

Treasure Map: In playtesting the struggle was making sure this was good enough to sometimes go for. Once it made 3 Golds and they didn't go on top. Some people do single this out as a high-variance card they don't like. I think the hate is similar to Pirate Ship's; in some groups everybody buys it, thus whoever bought it and got luckiest wins, and then the card looks broken when really it requires good card interactions to be exciting. King's Court has higher variance and gets fewer complaints, though some people do hate it (especially, players who are really focused on skill winning out); I think there it's just, playing something three times is something a lot of people can appreciate, and the card isn't as blatant about its variance. And then Platinum, I bet a lot of people don't even think of Platinum as high-variance. Certainly no-one complains about it. So anyway yeah, Treasure Map, not the swingiest card, but very in your face about its swinginess.

Familiar: Some people just don't like the Potion concept. I knew this, thought the set was still worth doing, but put it last. Then it jumped up to 3rd after they decided they wanted small sets. The cards in Alchemy have to be good enough when they're the only Alchemy card out, and if they are then you may draw your Potion without quite enough money. The general solution is not to do this kind of thing in Dominion expansions, but in spin-offs instead, where you can ensure that there's always plenty of whatever, and then balance the cards for that situation.

Swindler: I like Swindler a lot, now you know. It's everything I want out of a trashing attack. Let's compare it to Saboteur. Swindler trashes people's precious cards. It can't usually get rid of a Province though (yes it can on the last turn, and there's Peddler sometimes, or combos). And sometimes other cards are safe from it, e.g. Gold with no other $6. It does produce resources, a generous +$2. It's not weak. And it doesn't have lots of tiny text! It's a fine length. Also it adds a decision that's sometimes interesting, and puts cards in your deck that you didn't want but which might be useful anyway. It does add luck, and especially hurts when they hit your $5 early, say while hitting someone else's Estate, but it also adds skill. You see people blow it on that decision so often; the funniest case is where they hit Silver and cannot bear to give you a Swindler for it.

Black Market: For the prototype I don't have separate different-backed randomizer cards - I use one card from each pile for the randomizer, add it to the pile to play, then return one to the randomizer pile afterwards. You can do this with real cards too, and if you do, then you don't actually ever need to build a Black Market deck. Those of you who just don't like the setup, there you go. I have played with Black Market a lot, but have never actually endured the setup it proposes. Those of you who don't like that only one person ends up with a particular card, well that was the premise, some people like that a lot, and hey it's a promo.

Tournament: Aside from being so complex that it has a 2x2 payoff grid and then requires you to read five other cards to know the whole story, I think of Tournament as a slam dunk, the kind of card every set is desperate to have. I did not expect any complaints about the rich-get-richer aspect of it; there is so much rich-get-richer in Dominion.

Goons: I am pleased with this card. It was a late addition with several restrictions - it had to be an attack that was suitable for Prosperity and didn't give out Curses; it had to give out VP tokens; it had to be justifiable with that art (leftover from Pawn). The attack part feels tacked on, but the other part is cool. It's nice that while the VP tokens part is cumulative, the attack part isn't. It's a good $6 but not an automatic purchase. Some people never get tired of raking in the VP tokens, and there are cute combos like Watchtower.

Ambassador: The attacks in Dominion fall into four categories, and it's easy for the attack part of an attack to feel like nothing new, leaving the resource part to try to make the card unique. So I am very pleased with Ambassador, which feels very different from other attacks in its family. It's cool that people sometimes buy Curses to give them away with it, and it's fun when you end up giving someone a random action you don't want anymore. I can see experienced players getting sick of it, since it's powerful, but I think at first glance it doesn't look scary; there's some play value in gradually learning what kind of monster you're dealing with.

For me, the worst cards to see in a set of 10 are Spy variants. The reason is, they mess up testing. I'm testing a new card, Sheep. I buy it. You hit it with Spy and make me discard it. Next pass through my deck, same thing. Well I am not learning anything about Sheep this game.

I like seeing high variance cards on the table - it takes the pressure off. I can just relax and play. It wasn't my fault I lost, officer, the King's Court did it. I like fighting against attacks. Some of the most hated cards, like Possession and Saboteur, I usually don't even buy, because I'm trying to win. I don't mind Chapel in games where there's no good alternative; we all buy Chapel, it's a fast game, and there are still other decisions. I don't have trouble counting for Philosopher's Stone, although if I had it to do again I would put it (back) into Prosperity (with Bank, formerly from Alchemy, in Alchemy), to reduce the overall sense of the set being slow.

Well it's no surprise that I like the cards, I mean anything I hated did not have much of a chance of making it into a set.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 06:55:38 pm by Donald X. »
Logged

Randal FTW

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2011, 10:16:03 pm »
0

Nice post, Donald. Pretty cool that youre so involved with the community.
Logged
With No Power Comes No Responsibility

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2011, 11:07:54 pm »
+1

Thanks for this write up! I'm surprised by a couple things:

Possession is weak, really? *checks Councilroom* Well, who knows what this really means, but this graph seems to say it's better than all the 7s except KC, though it does cost 'more'. I don't really put too much stock in that kind of Councilroom data, but it has always felt strong to me, though insanely swingy. My personal win rate with it is just barely above 1, and I pretty much usually go for it when it's there, so it can't be *that* bad...

But anyway, my real issue with the card is the degree to which it promotes long, unfun games. It becomes correct to just fill your deck with green cards, attacks they don't want to play, and Possessions, while trying to do most of your buying with their deck... but of course they're doing the same thing, so the game just drags on with neither player doing much BUT STILL twice as long as usual between turns. And it doesn't make up for this by adding a lot fascinating strategy or skill-testing play. Sure, there are some neat tricks (ambassador/masquerade, forcing reshuffles at awful times) and some things it's fun to wrap your head around the first few times you play with it, but for me it's really not worth it, and is thus the only Dominion card I ever actively avoid playing with.

The other big surprise for me is your unreserved love for Tournament. I've written at least two long essays about why I think it is the least healthy (NOTE: This does not mean least fun) card printed to date. By 'unhealthy' I mean a few things:

1. Insanely high variance
2. Insanely powerful
3. Insanely snowbally 

1: While I actually enjoy the opening 4-7 turns of a tournament game quite a bit, if both players find the right strategy for getting a province ASAP, it's pretty much totally random who makes theirs go first.

2: I think it is the single card that I will buy in the greatest % of spreads it shows up it. There are other cards like Chapel or Minion that are *usually* must-buys, but the great thing about Dominion is that even such well-known powerhouses are often not the right way to go due to the other cards in the spread. Maybe I'm wrong and a bad player, but I'm pretty sure these situations are *far* rarer with Tournament.

3: Once you make one go, you basically win. When I first played with it, I thought that Followers was so egregiously powerful that this was a literally true statement in all but the silliest edge cases. I no longer believe this; I've lost a few games where I got Followers and won a few where they did, and you do have to be a little careful about those estates. But still. My Win Rate With Followers is 1.52. Trusty Steed is next at 1.49. Those are stupid numbers. Those numbers should not happen. Even Diadem, Princess, and Bag of Gold give me hugely better numbers than Mountebank.

The subtle thing about Tournament that makes it even worse is the two extra ways that it snowballs: first, the Province-revealing mechanic, which looks like it's there to help slow down the guy who bought a lot of Tournaments and is getting ahead, actually has the opposite effect of increasing the snowball. When you make Tournament go off, it's easier to get more provinces, which means it's easier to make Tournament go off, and also easier to shut down the other guy's Tournaments, which makes it even harder for them to get Provinces, which makes it even harder for them to make theirs go off and catch up...

Second, the Duchies. My god. You're already in this unbeatable position because of followers, now they can't even catch up by buying Duchies while you flounder around with your estate-filled deck, because you already took them all, for free.

Bleah, that was a lot of words. Like I said, playing with tournament is that unfun, at least not at the beginning of the game, but I've never felt more hopeless in a game of Dominion than after my opponent hit two Tournaments before I hit one, and the game doesn't necessarily end soon... so, I'm curious to know why you think this card is such a hit, or whether you've never had my experiences with it, or if you think I'm wrong about it's power level, or what.

Oh, and lastly -- how is Torturer not on this list? The card is fine if there are no +2 actions around, but as soon as there are I think it's the most degenerate, stifling, and unfun card around.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2011, 12:10:54 am »
0

I absolutely love Goons and Ambassador, and Tournament might be my favorite card in the game :D I love the novel gameplay dynamics introduced by Tournament. Even if I thought it was a true must-buy (and I don't), I wouldn't mind because it still makes for terribly interesting and delightful games.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2011, 10:26:19 am »
0

Thanks for this write up! I'm surprised by a couple things:

Possession is weak, really? *checks Councilroom* Well, who knows what this really means, but this graph seems to say it's better than all the 7s except KC, though it does cost 'more'. I don't really put too much stock in that kind of Councilroom data, but it has always felt strong to me, though insanely swingy. My personal win rate with it is just barely above 1, and I pretty much usually go for it when it's there, so it can't be *that* bad...

...

2: I think it is the single card that I will buy in the greatest % of spreads it shows up it. There are other cards like Chapel or Minion that are *usually* must-buys, but the great thing about Dominion is that even such well-known powerhouses are often not the right way to go due to the other cards in the spread. Maybe I'm wrong and a bad player, but I'm pretty sure these situations are *far* rarer with Tournament.

...

Oh, and lastly -- how is Torturer not on this list? The card is fine if there are no +2 actions around, but as soon as there are I think it's the most degenerate, stifling, and unfun card around.

I, for one, actually agree with Donald that Possession is kind of a weak card.  I have a 0.92 win rate with Possession (third lowest among all cards), and a 1.61 win rate without (third-highest among all cards).  So for me at least, it's a lot easier to defend against it than to go for it myself.  Granted this is really atypical.

...

I used to believe that Tournament was pretty much always a must-buy, like you.  Then (as I've mentioned on BGG), I played this game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110427-123048-fe305c80.html

In which I get all five Prizes, and am still absolutely *obliterated* by a Goons engine.  Now I know better.  Goons is IMO a much better example of an overpowered card that is really super-dominant in most setups (it's even worth buying one or two when there aren't +Actions around).  I think it's easily the third-strongest card in the game behind Chapel and KC.  But I actually still like Goons, because there's a lot of subtlety in how to set up the engine, and the attack is frankly not nearly as devastating as the VPs, meaning the first person to hit doesn't necessarily snowball to victory.

...

Unlike Torturer.  Agree 100% about how that's the most unfun card there is.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 12:34:53 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2011, 02:43:04 pm »
0

Possession is weak, really?
...
The other big surprise for me is your unreserved love for Tournament.
Well there are arguments as to why Possession might not be so incredible given its cost, but I'm not really here to discuss strategy. I'm not scared of Possession, and I haven't been in any messed-up games with it, except for ones involving other cards that no longer exist.
.
I thought Tournament would be such a hit because it was such a hit! That was my line of reasoning there. There was no-one saying, what is this nonsense. There were arguments about the specifics and the prizes and well that's all covered in the Secret History.
.
I checked the last 10 logged playtest games with Tournament. There were two where no-one bought it, and four where everyone bought it. In the four games with a mix, two games had someone with Tournament and a prize win; one had someone with Tournament but no prizes win; and one had someone without Tournament win (over someone with a prize and someone without one, and this was not a Colony game). The cards get way more testing by the public than by the playtesters, and the playtesters aren't necessarily the best players ever, but still, you can obv. have a group of decent players that do not have a problem with Tournament.

Logged

CMiner

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2011, 04:54:23 pm »
0

I hate Possession the most, for 2 reasons:
  • It stacks: KC + Possession = 4 turns in a row.  Or just + actions and multiple Possessions.  And that just feels cheap, like it circumvents the basic structure of Dominion.
  • God help you if you have an island or masquerade floating around.  These I feel should obey the same rule as trashing opponent's cards while possessing them.

Now granted, these are edge cases.  I rarely, rarely have games where these things happen.  But in my opinion, Possession being able to stack is just too powerful, even if it rarely comes up.


As far as tournament goes, I don't think its all that bad.  For one, the dynamics shift completely in 3+ player games.  In 2 player games, you usually only lose to the "whoever reveals first" thing if you've been investing in too many tournaments.  Your own fault if you lose that investment, because its a gamble.  Invest in money/provinces/other kingdom cards as the priority, and then later pick up a tournament.  I've found myself in very few games where tournament prizes were the only viable strategy.

The most annoying card, for me, is Minion.  I don't think its unbalanced, I just hate it because from my perspective whenever I get hit with it I'm always going from a good 5 card hand to a terrible 4 card hand, never the reverse.  But likely just my perception.
Logged

RepGenie

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2011, 07:31:48 pm »
0

I vote for Loan. Only because every time I play it, the exact opposite thing that I want to draw comes up.
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2011, 02:30:03 am »
0

Thanks for your reply Donald. As I said in my post, I don't find Tournament unfun -- the Province race minigame is sometimes a really refreshingly new way to look at a spread. It also sounds like many of the problems I see with it are lessened a lot in 3p, which I've never played with it.

I'm still surprised that the feeling of hopelessness that winning that minigame can inspire in the opponent wasn't an issue during playtesting. Maybe I'm really doing it wrong, and I should be spending less time feeling hopeless and more time thinking about how to beat Tournament :)
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

KMueller

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: +12
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2011, 07:07:52 am »
0



The card I hate above all else is Torturer.  It's a powerful card that leads to really unfun games if your opponent gets his/her chain off first, and I'm actually very bad at constructing Torturer chains, so that happens a lot.

I was surprised to not see Torturer on the list. The card is so well named, when my opponents get it going, it is absolutely painful to sit and watch.
Logged

DsnowMan

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 122
  • Respect: +26
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2011, 10:34:49 am »
0

I don't like Minion. I feel compelled to build a Minion deck every time it's on the table. I know ways to win without it, but somehow I can't resist.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1855
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2011, 11:21:58 am »
0

I think my least favorite card is Hamlet. To me it's a worker's village + 10 seconds of AP, and since it's priced at 2, those 10 seconds really tend to add up. Online, even if you know exactly what you want to do, it still takes 5 or 6 seconds to make the requisite clicks.

I hated Minion back when I was playing a lot of BSW, because it's slow on that site and because it combos best with itself, which requires little thinking on the part of strategy-building. But Horse Traders has made Minion much better to defend against. Those are the only cards that I always groan when I see.

I would like Ambassador much better if it cost 4. Ambassador/Ambassador openings are boring but too strong to ignore.

Places where I disagree with others:
I love Tournament, even when it's destroying me (which it does more often than not). I also think that "I need to win a tournament quickly" is not the same thing as "I need to open Tournament," and figuring out how to answer question 1 is really crucial.

Somehow in thousands of games, only one or two of mine have been destroyed by the Torturer chains that everyone seems to hate. I think there is a general problem whereby people don't take curses enough, which then compounds the attack value of the Torturer chain as it takes longer for the curses to run out.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2011, 12:02:44 pm »
0

FWIW, costing Ambassador at $4 doesn't change that much, since Ambassador/Silver/Ambassador is already a stronger opening.
Logged

Rjax36

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2011, 12:10:32 pm »
0

1. Familiar.  This card can be reworded to read: After Turn 2, roll 1d6.  If you roll 2 or lower, you lose, unless your opponent also rolled 2 or lower.

Lol this is exactly what I was going to say.  I never accept a set with familiar unless there's ambassador (my favorite card in the game) to teach it a lesson ;)

I once played a 4-player game (irl) in which mountebank, torturer, ghost ship, and fishing village were all in the set.  That was the most painful guessing-game ever:

"Torturer? Ok i'll discard these curses. Oh, you mountebank me, dang.  Torturer again, huh? Well I'll take a curse this time, I knew better now. Oh ghost ship, if i put good cards on top ill get tortured and if i get rid of my curses ill get mountebanked..." And you had to live through 3 turns of this before you got to go again...

2 of the people involved never wanted to play again.  The funny thing is...they blamed the fishing villages! It's funny how often new players see village effect as the culprits...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 12:16:59 pm by Rjax36 »
Logged

Teproc

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 765
  • Shuffle iT Username: Teproc
  • aka Le Teproc
  • Respect: +356
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2011, 01:53:55 pm »
0

Well actually, there weren't totally wrong. Ghost Ship and Torturer are not really annoying (a little, but they're attacks) when there's no +2 Actions card. And Fishing VIllage is the craziest of those, so it allows to set up Torturer/Ghost Ship chains very easily. At least when the only +2 Actions card on the table is Festival or Nobles, you have to work for it.


I do love me some Fishing Village, but let's face it, it's because it's very, very powerful (much more than Torturer and Ghost Ship relatively to it's cost.
Logged
Mafia play advice: If you are not content with the way the game is going, always assume that it is your fault.

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2011, 02:06:16 pm »
0

Quote
Lol this is exactly what I was going to say.  I never accept a set with familiar unless there's ambassador (my favorite card in the game) to teach it a lesson

Start rewriting those text books. I've found that if you start silver/potion, then buy familiar and ambassador second time through, you are very competitive. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/12/game-20110612-064914-7854a06c.html
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2011, 02:12:49 pm »
0

If there are this many votes for Saboteur, can we repost the Saboteur article on a weekly basis until people start realizing that it's not strong and stop buying it so much that it ruins their groups' games? :P

My group I think had one or two games where several people bought it and failed to come anywhere close to winning, and after that maybe the guy who delighted more in screwing with other players than actually winning would buy it from time to time. I don't think we're incomparable Dominion geniuses or anything but we simply never had this (apparently common?) problem where every single player loaded up on Saboteurs and scorched the earth with them while not actually accomplishing anything.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 02:16:02 pm by guided »
Logged

Amaranth

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2011, 02:32:23 pm »
0

If there are this many votes for Saboteur, can we repost the Saboteur article on a weekly basis until people start realizing that it's not strong and stop buying it so much that it ruins their groups' games? :P
Well, the OP asks which card you find most annoying when it works for your opponent. Since I expect Saboteur not to be of much value except in a highly tuned deck that draws itself every turn, when someone opened with Saboteur and absolutely wrecked me, killing all of my good cards before I drew them, that kind of annoyed me.
Logged

tabako

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2011, 08:25:16 pm »
0

1) King's Court. I really hate the variance of this card. Often times both players will buy this early with their first 7 before their deck is tuned, and the result of drawing the KC with your best action on the next reshuffle can be the difference between winning and losing right there.

2) Familiar. Cements first player advantage and the correct "answer" to an opponent going familiar on most boards is to try and beat him to it, which turns the game into a coinflip. You really can't win when the curses split 7-3 which happens way more than it should with a familiar race.

3) Tournament. Turns the game into a one-dimensional race for provinces, and puts way too much emphasis on mid-game shuffle luck.


I'm really surprised at how much people are hating on Possession. I think it is a lot more narrow than people are crediting it, not very good in most decks. I only buy it in about 10% of my games, and the games where I buy it or have it played against me are some of the most interesting games I can remember. In a province game, I'm never going potion just for possession unless there is ambassador on the board or masquerade in my opponent's deck. The game is too fast and every possession you buy is a province you are forgoing if the potion had been a silver instead, not to mention all of the times you draw your potion without $6 and have a dead card. The presence of the card in somebody's deck adds a lot of interesting complexity, and the most common complaint raised with Posession thus far should actually be directed at King's Court.
Logged

Nitsuj

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2011, 09:47:35 pm »
0

Smugglers - no doubt, I hate this card the most.  I hate buying it because I'm a glass half empty guy - "my opponent will always buy something lousy when I have this card in my hand."  Then I'm a glass half empty guy x 2, because "I don't want to buy this card because my opponent will smuggle it"

Last game this card came up - Grand Market was in play and my opponent smuggled 3 of them in one game!

Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2011, 11:25:03 pm »
0

"One-dimensional" is the exact opposite of the way I'd describe Tournament games!
Logged

J.Co.

  • Guest
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2011, 11:48:11 pm »
0

The thing about Possession, as with every card, is everyone has the chance to buy them. So yes, while a card like Saboteur can make one person trash a province and another a silver (the randomness factor), there's equal opportunity for everyone to do the same. That's why I don't particularly like the Black Market card. It adds cards that aren't available to anyone else, since there's only one of each.

All that aside, I just dislike the Pirate Ship.
Logged

play2draw

  • Guest
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2011, 04:38:09 pm »
0

Black Market: ... Those of you who don't like that only one person ends up with a particular card, well that was the premise, some people like that a lot, and hey it's a promo.

Indeed. Though I said I don't like this card too much, I'm using a weak/relative definition. I'm not the sort of person to ban cards from play, and I don't really hate any of the cards... and probably I'm letting my Isotropic competitive attitude get in the way of fun in this case. I don't own this card yet, but when I get in in "real life" I'll probably enjoy it more.
Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2011, 05:16:50 pm »
0

I actually really dislike sea-hag. On non-trashing boards, it's basically a race to see who can mess over their opponents deck the fastest. Then, while doing so, you are actually getting messed up yourself. And once the curses are gone, you both have insanely weak decks since your sea-hags are a blank now as well.

It's then up to the shuffle to see who can dig themselves out of the hole the fastest. You opponent just happened to draw $3 several turns in a row while you sat at $2 forever? Good game.


I tend to dislike cards which force a certain play-style (i.e. buy me or lose), AND when that specific playstyle leads to games heavily dominated by randomness. Sea Hag is such a card, and I hate it for that reason and that reason alone (this doesn't mean I don't buy it though! I just don't like being forced to buy it).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 05:19:48 pm by Superdad »
Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2011, 05:26:54 pm »
0

I'll make a new post, since this is a separate thought...

On the contrary, I'm actually not opposed to high-variance cards. I actually think that randomness is CRITICAL in a strategy game, because it leads to a larger player-base. If player A can beat Player B, even though player B is much stronger, then player A will not give up on the game.

Look at Chess for an example. No variance (aside from who is white/black) and perfect information. Amazing strategy game? Yes. Popular? Kinda, but not really... especially for the casual player.

I had a MUCH easier time getting my wife to play Dominion versus other less-variance games. In Dominion, she can just beat me because of stronger draws. There's powerful $5's and I'm constantly stuck on $4 while she isn't? She grabs 7 labs and rolls me. She then wants to play again (while she does her victory dance). This is good for the game.

Cards like Treasure Map are perfect for her. They may not work often, but when they connect, they have a POWERFUL effect that is remembered. She may have only a 25% win record when she buys it, but she REMEMBERS those games, and she has a ton of fun in that victory. Competitive players may hate high-variance cards, but they are actually very very good for growing a large casual player-base.

Now... if a treasure-map based card was balanced so poorly that it was a must-buy high variance card... THEN I'd have a problem with it.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2011, 05:31:23 pm »
0

Chess is several orders of magnitude more popular than Dominion ;)
Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2011, 05:33:28 pm »
0

It has also been around for approximately 1500 years longer. :)
Logged

Personman

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Respect: +62
    • View Profile
    • My Friendfeed
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2011, 06:23:34 pm »
0

Now... if a treasure-map based card was balanced so poorly that it was a must-buy high variance card... THEN I'd have a problem with it.

You mean like King's Court? :/

It has also been around for approximately 1500 years longer. :)

Isn't that a point in Chess's favor? Most games fade in popularity over time. Only the really popular ones endure like chess has.

That said, I don't disagree with you about the appeal of variance for more casual players. I just don't think it's reasonable to say that therefore Dominion would obviously be more popular than chess if it had been around for as long.
Logged
My youtube channel. Isoptropic games with commentary!

Death to Sea Hags

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2011, 07:55:45 pm »
0

I actually really dislike sea-hag. On non-trashing boards, it's basically a race to see who can mess over their opponents deck the fastest. Then, while doing so, you are actually getting messed up yourself. And once the curses are gone, you both have insanely weak decks since your sea-hags are a blank now as well.

It's then up to the shuffle to see who can dig themselves out of the hole the fastest. You opponent just happened to draw $3 several turns in a row while you sat at $2 forever? Good game.


I tend to dislike cards which force a certain play-style (i.e. buy me or lose), AND when that specific playstyle leads to games heavily dominated by randomness. Sea Hag is such a card, and I hate it for that reason and that reason alone (this doesn't mean I don't buy it though! I just don't like being forced to buy it).

Yes.
Logged

Amaranth

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2011, 05:43:22 am »
0

It has also been around for approximately 1500 years longer. :)
It depends on what you mean by around for 1500 years. It certainly hasn't had its current ruleset for anything like that time, and I'm pretty sure there are historical variants where randomisers like dice were used.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2011, 07:07:01 pm »
0

Quote
Lol this is exactly what I was going to say.  I never accept a set with familiar unless there's ambassador (my favorite card in the game) to teach it a lesson

Start rewriting those text books. I've found that if you start silver/potion, then buy familiar and ambassador second time through, you are very competitive. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/12/game-20110612-064914-7854a06c.html

Yeah, I once tried double Ambassador as a counter to Familiar and got wildly stomped. It could have just been bad luck, but I don't think so. The problem is that taking it up against Familiars AND Ambassadors is a losing proposition.
Logged

KMueller

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: +12
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 06:04:00 am »
0

Chess is several orders of magnitude more popular than Dominion ;)
In the month of June, 2011, do you think more chess sets were sold, or boxes of Dominion?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2011, 08:40:53 am »
0

Chess is several orders of magnitude more popular than Dominion ;)
In the month of June, 2011, do you think more chess sets were sold, or boxes of Dominion?
Chess sets, and it's not even close.

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2011, 09:07:54 am »
0

On BSW I hate Golem, since it leads to endless turns.

In general I dislike cards that push the luck element of the game, like Swindler or such.

About Tournament... well, on the one hand its problem is that it often greatly benefits the player who already has a small lead anyway (and thus virtually desides the game in some cases), but on the other hand it's just a hell lot of fun.

Don't have a problem with possession though. It's game changing and brings a whole new element in, but that's fine for me. The only issue is that it might lead to really broke games when all players follow the strategy to just play with the opponent's deck and just go for green+cycling for their own one... but that's really rarely the case.
Logged

kyumin133

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2011, 11:39:33 pm »
0

I really dislike Tournament, even when I win with it.  After a point it just gets depressing.  Also, I dislike Secret Chamber in Isotropic games because of how long people take to decide what to put back...especially maddening in Minion games.

 There was one terrible game that I was in where my opponent kept revealing Secret Chamber in response to Minion and putting it on top of his deck, so when I used the discard and draw 4 new cards option for Minion, he would draw the Secret Chamber, then reveal it, put it on his deck, etc.  I mean, it's a valid strategy, but it just made the game last forever. haha.
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2011, 11:31:04 pm »
0

Has to be hamlet.  Yes, the other cards actually make you lose the game, but hamlet spam is worse than even pawn AP. I even annoy myself when I use hamlet. Plus when my opponent so slowly cycles through his multiple hamlets every turn, I end up making decisions on the basis of ending the game as soon as possible, rather than the highest chance of victory.
Logged

Young Nick

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
  • Respect: +274
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2011, 09:04:14 am »
0

I am surprised to see that no one (to my knowledge, for I have only skimmed the articles most recent comments) has mentioned the reasons I have for disliking Black Market and Tournament.
First off, don't get me wrong: I am not a huge fan of Possession or Torturer or some of the other cards mentioned. However, they are not game breakers for me.
Black Market and Tournament are because they break what seems like a fundamental rule of Dominion to me: That everyone has the same exposure to the same cards over the course of the game. While it is true that everyone theoretically can get Followers, the fact that there is only 1 copy prevents this from truly being the case. I enjoy Dominion over M:tG because everyone has equal access to cards and prefer it to other games (like Settlers) where you can get freezed out of cards/resources. However, these two cards allow for 1-of's to be bought, unfortunately. I still enjoy playing with them, but I feel a bit guilty doing so. They just don't feel like Dominion cards.

Just my thoughts.
Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2011, 10:14:10 am »
0

I think that's a personal thing. I actually *like* that aspect of settlers (for example), because I think it creates a strategical decision.

I like the ability to deny someone a vital resource. It adds a whole other layer of strategical decision making to the game. I.e. I can take the superior (overall) location for my last settlement, or I could take this slightly inferior position, but I may be able to monopolize Stone (for example). I could then leverage that monopoly into a superior trade advantage.

This additional strategical aspect introduces a new decision to make. Anytime you introduce new decisions to make, you increase the complexity and richness of the game (again, personal perspective only, not hard-facts).

/disclaimer, that being said, Dominion is 1000x less luck based than Settlers in my opinion. I am only commenting on that one aspect of the game - which is one that I actually enjoy.

For this reason, I actually enjoy cards like Black Market, because they give you access to a resource that you could solely obtain. The decision to go for that one key card (say, a kings court, or a cursing attack on a non-cursing attack board) in the black market deck is something that I really enjoy.
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2011, 03:14:59 am »
0

It's not strategy to buy a good card from the BM.
Logged

dan11295

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
  • Respect: +5
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2011, 06:42:29 am »
0

It's not strategy to buy a good card from the BM.

I have some distaste for BM for this reason. Just luck wrt what 3 cards you have the choice from when you play it. Certain cards can be game changers if grabbed from the BM deck:

1)Chapel/Forge: Chapel grabbed early from BM deck with no other good trashing options on the board=gg.
2)Tournament: Will go BM every time Tournament is in there. Free reign over prizes + free duchies late is usually a win.
3) Curse giver with none other on the board.

That said I dislike Sab the most in that it does nothing to improve the deck of the person playing it.

Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2011, 09:00:28 am »
0

It is strategy. Of course it is. Any decision you make is a strategical decision in this game.

You reveal X, Y, Z cards in the black market deck. Do you buy one of them, or do you buy something from the 10-kingdom cards available? That decision comes with a benefit and/or a consequence. The better players will make the correct choice more often than worse players.

Sure it's luck based on what is turned up, but that doesn't mean that it also isn't strategic on the decision to both buy Black Market and the decision to choose to buy the revealed cards or not.

This entire game has elements of luck in it, but that doesn't mean the game isn't strategic.
Logged

joel88s

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
  • Respect: +169
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2011, 05:08:47 pm »
0

I just played the most unspeakably unfun game with Possession. Now of course this was largely my own fault: I don't usually play with it, and thought I'd give it a try, and I did have some bad luck, drawing by all my gelt and the potion consecutively the first time around, thus getting jumped to it by opponent. But not having given a lot of thought to the card I also evidently forgot a seminal 'counter' post on theory's blog, Possession/Ambassador, and so the game became essentially a locus classicus for why those two don't mix. Oops.

But what really struck me about the game, as my opponent played three or four Possessions in one turn and sheepishly returned all my platinums - and ultimately my one unplayed Possession - to the supply, was how bad it felt for both of us. My opponent, obviously a very decent guy, seemed to feel almost as bad as I did. Doesn't that sound like the definition of a card to hate?

Of course it's all well and good to say the card can be defended against by a good player, that it's really not all that strong when countered correctly, etc. But the fact is almost by definition any game is not played only by experienced players, and while getting your butt whooped periodically is certainly a normal part of the learning process, it's hard to love a card that not only makes the loser never want to play again, but makes the winner feel like crap as well.
Logged

Amaranth

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2011, 06:34:45 pm »
0

I can't say I agree that Possession is unfun, or at least that it's any more unfun than Minion, which has a rather stronger negative effect on you, and kills your original hand just as dead. It's very powerful when it works, but given the cost it'd want to be.
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2011, 02:49:51 am »
0

Quote
Sure it's luck based on what is turned up, but that doesn't mean that it also isn't strategic on the decision to both buy Black Market and the decision to choose to buy the revealed cards or not.
This entire game has elements of luck in it, but that doesn't mean the game isn't strategic.
The more luck, the less strategy. If a mountebank comes up and I have enough money (which may be based on luck early game), it doesn't take an expert to see what to do, yet an expert will probably not be able to win against me, unless i mess things up royally.

Is it strategy to buy a card saying "Trash this card. Flip a coin, heads you win,tails you lose"? I had to make the decision to buy the card...
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2011, 03:51:49 am »
0

The more luck, the less strategy.
I don't really know what you mean by "strategy" there, but I suspect I disagree. You can certainly have games that are high luck high skill (poker), high luck low skill (snakes & ladders), low luck high skill (go), or low luck low skill (tic-tac-toe).

Richard Garfield uses the example of chess-with-dice. It's a chess variant. It's just like chess, except, at the start of your turn, roll 2d6. On a 12, you win! This game has a lot more luck than chess. Does it have less "strategy" than chess?
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2011, 04:20:57 am »
0

Quote
Sure it's luck based on what is turned up, but that doesn't mean that it also isn't strategic on the decision to both buy Black Market and the decision to choose to buy the revealed cards or not.
This entire game has elements of luck in it, but that doesn't mean the game isn't strategic.
The more luck, the less strategy. If a mountebank comes up and I have enough money (which may be based on luck early game), it doesn't take an expert to see what to do, yet an expert will probably not be able to win against me, unless i mess things up royally.

Is it strategy to buy a card saying "Trash this card. Flip a coin, heads you win,tails you lose"? I had to make the decision to buy the card...

I think the point is it's strategy to say "There are no cursing or trashing cards on the board, but there's Mountebank and Witch in the Black Market, therefore I'm going to buy a Black Market". It's luck to actually pull them out, but it was strategy to give yourself more than a 0% chance to pull them out in the first place.
Logged

Superdad

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2011, 09:10:39 am »
0

Yes exactly, and it's skill to be able to quantify the probabilities and formulate your decision based on that (even if "quantifying" it is not done with a calculator, but with your intuition).

For example (using the example above)...

Witch/Montebank are in the black market deck.

I probably have a 50% chance to win this game without black market.
If I buy a black market and get an early witch/montebank, I have a 70% chance to win.
If I buy a black market and get an mid witch/montebank, I have a 55% chance to win.
If I buy a black market and get an late (or no) witch/montebank, I have a 30% chance to win.

Then you guy-instinct the probabilities of each of those events happening. Of course, you could actually calculate it, if your opponent let you get out a calculator/spreadsheet, but likely you are going to have to gut-feel-it in a game.

Then you gut-feel the "randomness" factor, and decide if you are comfortable. I.e. making this decision will likely make the game more luck based than not making it. Do you feel you can outplay your opponent more if you play a less luck-based strategy? Do you feel you may get outplayed more if you don't?

For example, lets suppose the decision came down to 50-50, you were just as likely to win using this strategy as not using it, but using it means the chance of you winning is more based on luck (getting the W/M or not). If I was against the #1 ranked isotropic player, I'd likely go with it and roll the dice, since I'd likely get outplayed if I went for a less-luck based, but equally strong strategy. If I were against a weaker player, I would try to outplay him instead.


This is where skill/strategy comes into play and dances a tango with "luck". Good players will be able to assess this "luck" and make an informed strategical decision, and they'll make the correct decision more often than a lesser skilled opponent.

Anytime you introduce a new decision, you introduce the opportunity for one player to outplay the other - even if that new decision has a lot of "luck" associated with it.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2011, 09:17:04 am »
0

The more luck, the less strategy.
I don't really know what you mean by "strategy" there, but I suspect I disagree. You can certainly have games that are high luck high skill (poker), high luck low skill (snakes & ladders), low luck high skill (go), or low luck low skill (tic-tac-toe).

Richard Garfield uses the example of chess-with-dice. It's a chess variant. It's just like chess, except, at the start of your turn, roll 2d6. On a 12, you win! This game has a lot more luck than chess. Does it have less "strategy" than chess?

I'm assuming he just means that the return on being the better player is less certain. That's definitely true, but it's also not necessarily a bad thing.

Black Market is occasionally frustrating, and sometimes the choices you get are no-brainers. I think the recent defenders are overstating the case quite a bit, in that regard. But I do think it often introduces pretty intriguing decisions when it offers up useful but less slam-dunk cards and you need to decide whether to concede something else you wanted to buy instead. And the Tactician combo is great. On balance, I think it's a nice card to have around.
Logged

randomdragoon

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 67
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2011, 09:14:00 pm »
0

I mostly just dislike familiar, because drawing $3P on turns 3/4 is still somewhat unlikely even if you open silver/potion. Sea hag has that bad thing that happens where your opponent's sea hag discards your sea hag.

I actually think it's less an issue with luck than with fun factor. King's court is probably more swingy than either of the above but it's fun to play. Drawing $2P with familiar as the only potion card is just depressing.
Logged

jimjam

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2011, 04:42:01 am »
0

Yes, I agree with ackack. To elaborate some:

With regards to Garfield's example (I don't know what else he said about it) and in general:
Yes, luck and strategy are not mutually exclusive; games with luck have a lot to offer that games without luck don't. But sometimes the luck is just not constructive to the strategy, and takes away from it.

-To reiterate what ackack is saying, strategy is qualitatively similar for Chess/Dice to Chess, but it plays a lesser role than in Chess, because the game may not be determined based on strategy.
-I say similar because it encourages the less skilled player to adopt stalling tactics, which may take some consideration to figure out, but overall would not contribute much to the game-perfection of such a strategy yields a little less than 50% victory rate.
-It happens to give the first player an advantage, since he rolls first. This is a nitpick though, a similar example (a single dice is rolled before the game and 5-6 give the victory to one or the other) would solve this and the above criticism. Though then this example would not line up with BM as well.
-It's just kind of annoying when somebody has a lucky win (and for me sometimes unsatisfying, once I bought a possession with my first black market; at one point I had resolved to trash it with a bishop but I had to masquerade away my bishop or something). Especially if they act like it was some genius move to do so.

In any case I think BM can be fun if there are nice cards like caravan or hunting party that are handy but not dominating.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1855
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2011, 11:25:00 pm »
0

I disagre with Garfield's thought experiment. If I am playing an expert at real chess, I have probability zero of winning. Therefore, my optimal strategy in the variant is to stall the game. So there really is less (or at least, different) strategic thinking on my part.
Logged

Auroch

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2011, 02:42:14 pm »
0

My most hated card is Sea Hag. Because it's usually too good to ignore, so most often all players will buy them, but playing against it is no fun at all, so most often the game becomes an unfun slog.
Logged

Razzishi

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eye Urn
  • Respect: +120
    • View Profile
Re: Which is the card you hate the most?
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2011, 12:16:23 am »
0

I dislike Smugglers the most.  Completely dependent on your opponent doing something useful; could be a blank, could be amazing.  If it was something like a terminal silver that could gain non-VP up to cost 5 I'd at least find it respectable to buy.  As it is now it's a half-assed "attack" that completely relies on your opponent to be buying the right cards at the right time.
Logged
Stop reading my signature.
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All]
 

Page created in 0.533 seconds with 20 queries.