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Forge!!!

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2013, 08:58:00 am »
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Can you people edit all my papers for me? I suppose I just need to find people as passionate about my topics as people on here are about dominion...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2013, 09:30:40 am »
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Tradering the Ruins will give you a Death Cart and two Silvers.  That should guarantee you a Province buy, but probably just one, since you'll most likely be trashing the Death Cart.  I have not tried this yet, though.
Well I mean, how often are you going to have both? But yeah, you're probably giving up the death cart much faster. On the other hand, you have two silvers in your deck rather than two dead cards, and I think that at least reasonably often this is actually right - I certainly wouldn't call it idiotic. I probably just wouldn't mention it at all, because it will almost never come up.

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My rule 3 is not about overpaying - it's about not using all of what you pay for.  There's nothing wrong with pay $8 for  Herbalist if you really need the +Buy.  However, there is something wrong with paying $5 for a City if you don't desperately need the +Actions and there's little likelihood of a pile running out anytime soon.  There is something wrong with paying for a card, and then not using all of what you pay for.
Yeah, but what do you mean by that? Because I am basing my comments largely on a video you did where you criticize and ridicule your opponent for buying mining villages and then not trashing them on multiple occasions, and you were being REALLY unfair to your opponent on that, because he SHOULD be keeping those villages around and not trashing them. Yeah, he isn't getting all the use out of mining village, but really, he's just paying for a village, and he'd be happy to pay 4 for it. Same with a city - even if piles aren't running, sometimes you need village for 5, and city's better, so might as well get it. Or for something like herbalist, this is I think the clearest demonstration. What does herbalist do for you? Three things - it gives you a terminal $1, it gives a +buy, and it gives the treasure return. Now, the terminal copper is virtually never worth it (I'm sure there's an edge case somewhere). But very very often, you're buying herbalist in a big big engine, and you just really need the +buy, and in these decks you usually specifically DON'T want to put treasure back, because it hurts your chances of getting the engine to fire next turn. And most of the other times you want it, you have little to no use for the +buy, and mostly you want to hit those key treasures over and over - with hoard, or a weak-ish BM strategy where you are returning your good treasures. In either of these cases, you're definitely not getting the maximum usage out of the card, and thus you're violating your rule #3, but in both cases, you really need to do this. Of course, when you can use both things (a la with P-Stone), the card gets to its strongest. But you very often want to buy cards that aren't at their strongest, because you really need to fill a role. It's like you say here 'if you aren't desperate for actions'. Well, yeah, but this ENORMOUS exception of being 'desperate' for something basically nullifies the rule entirely - you're almost always 'desperate' for something. Well, this depends on how desperate is defined, but my point is that you are desperate enough to warrant it quite often, and the largest point is this: whether or not you are getting the full use out of a card is actually totally irrelevant; if you aren't, then you might not "be getting your money's worth", but this doesn't matter. It's all about what, of your legal options, is best and most needed for your deck right now. The point of comparison should be your other options of what to buy, NOT how good that card can be for you in other decks.
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And Goons and Mountebank aren't blatantly dominant?
No, they aren't. They're very strong (and I would guess much better than DC, though hey, I could be wrong), but there are plenty of times you don't want mountebank, and a decent number you don't want goons. I got clobbered a week or two ago largely because I got goons against an opponent who had an engine that was just too strong and fast for it to matter. Wharf is probably the most ubiquitous card, i.e. the one you want closest to 100% of the time, but there are situations you don't want it, either.
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Yeah, I picked Moat because I didn't want to say Pearl Diver or Vagrant again.
My larger point here isn't about the moat specifically, it's about the denial strategy in general being bad. Trying to buy out the death cart fodder to deny your opponent is almost never going to work, especially if getting those cheap actions wasn't part of your own game plan. Again, I ask you for even one example of where this denial strategy has actually worked.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2013, 11:00:12 am »
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Editing the article now.

Death Cart/Rats/Fortress:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130105/log.505c6195a2e6c78ad2ed5a99.1357401499267.txt
4 Provinces in 18 turns, game end (6 Provinces) 23 turns.  Bear in mind my Rats missed the first reshuffle.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130105/log.505c6195a2e6c78ad2ed5a99.1357401947212.txt
Salvager/Fortress, with Menagerie and Conspirator aid, was quicker than my Death Cart strategy.

The article has been amended, with both jomini's and WW's thoughts considered.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:25:57 am by werothegreat »
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jomini

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2013, 12:57:57 pm »
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Remember, two golds are better in most engines that one Dthcrt/Target. They have identical space constraints, but give another coin. I'm not completely sure, but I think most sifting/live draw setups with Mrksqr/Dthcrt may beat Rats/Dthcrt. As I long been saying, Dthcrt really likes +buy, Mrksqr has on-trash benefits and just about the most painless +buy in the game.

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I'll mention sifting/draw, and amend the Colony discussion.  But eHalcyon suggested Ironworks, not me.
Iw is completely legit, particularly as a way to gain Dthcrts, however, like most combos for Dthcrt, it works much better with sifting, draw, or trashing to enable the combo. Yeah, it is not as space efficient as 3 silvers, however there are times when you don't want the silvers (e.g. Wandering Minstrel), and times where you go faster by not rejiggering to a more draw efficient engine. Iw/Kc/Dthcrt/Draw (<5)  would be a good example.

Sifting makes it a lot faster, as you note, Dthcrt only really needs 3 cards to make a province (gold/Dthcrt/target). This means you can use something like two Warehouses to search 9 cards for that combo. In like manner, top decking cards - like Count, Courtyard, etc. can help you store parts of the combo to line up later. As you've noted Haven can easily let you set back one of the key cards in hopes of lining up next turn and that is just a very flexible form of top-decking and sifting.


Thinking about this more, I think you really should de-emphasize the utility of cheap action cards. Yeah they can be good with +buy (Herbalist), sifting (Haven), draw (Moat), +action (Hamlet), or on-trash benefits (Squire) ... but consider if you really are buying them just for Dthcrt fodder what that really means. You are spending $2 now to get $5 coin later. In a steady state, that makes Dthcrt a gimped gold - it takes up an extra card, an extra buy, and an extra action (all compared to Gold) for the same net benefit. There are times you want that (again Wandering Minstrel is a great example), but it doesn't take too long before you should have just not bought the $2 card, pitched the Dthcrt, and replaced it with a Gold. I'd be real hesitant to stock up on cheepies if I couldn't use them well in my engine. If they actually are good engine bait (like Courtyard, Hamlet)), or if they combo really nicely with Dthcrt (like Squire), then sure stock up up and trash as needed. However, buying something crappy - like Pearl Diver - just to trash it seems to not be worth it in the long run.

Now if you are getting your cheap actions for "free" (e.g. Haggler, Iw, Bridge, Highway, Princess, etc.), then that changes. Otherwise, I'd only dabble in fodder if I've run out of Ruins to buy or have absolutely nothing better to do with that $2.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2013, 06:23:19 pm »
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Editing the article now.

Death Cart/Rats/Fortress:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20130105/log.505c6195a2e6c78ad2ed5a99.1357401499267.txt
4 Provinces in 18 turns, game end (6 Provinces) 23 turns.  Bear in mind my Rats missed the first reshuffle.
A little by-hand testing makes me think that this is decently bad luck, but on the other hand this 'combo' seems to only be about as good as BM-Smithy...
Edit: That's without the fortress. But I was getting so clogged down, I don't think you really want the rats...

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2013, 11:39:08 pm »
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Any more thoughts?  How is the article looking now?
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 05:11:10 pm »
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I'd add a little more about opening deathcart.  It can be a very risky proposition if there isn't much sifting. But also can have huge payoffs.

Honestly I hate the card and usually veto it with friends. It takes Baron Bad Luck to the extreme.  (drawing CCEEE on turn 3 after opening baron). I played a game once, where my deathcart was my 12th card along with 3 copper and an estate. So I could trash it, leaving 2 dead cards in my deck, or hold it and get my 4th silver.  Adding insult to injury my opp just trashed his second ruin on turn 5 giving him DC+2 gold + 2 silver after 5 turns, while I had DC + 2 ruins + 4 silvers

And is almost a must have in platinum games. Deathcart + 4 copper has a non-trivial chance of appearing and practically winning the game for you on your first shuffle.
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jomini

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 12:43:28 pm »
+1

Any more thoughts?  How is the article looking now?

I still think you are misleading people about buying cheap actions to feed the death cart. Outside of Poor house and Ruins, the best long term result from using Death cart on bought actions is $3 coin (5 coin gross, 2 coin costs, 3 coin net). This is a gimped gold; which while useful, isn't worth structuring your buys around. For a lot of boards, pitching the Dthcrt and just buying a gold when you have nothing to pair is going to work a LOT better. Yeah, there is the timing question, but address it - don't just ignore the opportunity cost of buying cheap, crappy actions just to Dthcrt them.

You really need to look at the costs of playing Dthcrt, not just its "OMG 5 coin payout". Dthcrt takes up 2 card slots in hand, needs a +buy or card gain off another card, and an action to get you a gold's worth of payout. Massing cheap crap that does useful stuff can work, I remain skeptical that massing crap (like Duchess or Pearl Diver) will be anything other than a money sink.

Likewise, you still are basically ignoring the difficulty of pairing up your Dthcrt with stuff you want. Sifting is REALLY that useful and it would be very helpful to get more into the kind of deck structure you need to actually pair up Dthcrt with stuff to trash.
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 01:14:45 pm »
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Any more thoughts?  How is the article looking now?

I still think you are misleading people about buying cheap actions to feed the death cart. Outside of Poor house and Ruins, the best long term result from using Death cart on bought actions is $3 coin (5 coin gross, 2 coin costs, 3 coin net). This is a gimped gold; which while useful, isn't worth structuring your buys around. For a lot of boards, pitching the Dthcrt and just buying a gold when you have nothing to pair is going to work a LOT better. Yeah, there is the timing question, but address it - don't just ignore the opportunity cost of buying cheap, crappy actions just to Dthcrt them.

You really need to look at the costs of playing Dthcrt, not just its "OMG 5 coin payout". Dthcrt takes up 2 card slots in hand, needs a +buy or card gain off another card, and an action to get you a gold's worth of payout. Massing cheap crap that does useful stuff can work, I remain skeptical that massing crap (like Duchess or Pearl Diver) will be anything other than a money sink.

Likewise, you still are basically ignoring the difficulty of pairing up your Dthcrt with stuff you want. Sifting is REALLY that useful and it would be very helpful to get more into the kind of deck structure you need to actually pair up Dthcrt with stuff to trash.

If you get Warehouses to sift, I would most likely just feed the Warehouse to the Death Cart, rather than using it to sift.

EDIT: Maybe I should make it more clear that I don't mean to spend $6 on a Pearl Diver.  I mean that if the cheapest card on the board is Death Cart, you're not going to get much use out of Death Cart.  If Pearl Diver is there, when you have $2 or $3, pick one up.  A Death Cart and a Pearl Diver in hand is better than two Silvers.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:19:44 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 01:21:32 pm »
+1

A Death Cart and a Pearl Diver in hand is better than two Silvers.

But is it?

I get to keep the silvers. I'm not sure the advantage there is so clear cut.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 02:25:36 pm »
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Any more thoughts?  How is the article looking now?

I still think you are misleading people about buying cheap actions to feed the death cart. Outside of Poor house and Ruins, the best long term result from using Death cart on bought actions is $3 coin (5 coin gross, 2 coin costs, 3 coin net). This is a gimped gold; which while useful, isn't worth structuring your buys around. For a lot of boards, pitching the Dthcrt and just buying a gold when you have nothing to pair is going to work a LOT better. Yeah, there is the timing question, but address it - don't just ignore the opportunity cost of buying cheap, crappy actions just to Dthcrt them.

You really need to look at the costs of playing Dthcrt, not just its "OMG 5 coin payout". Dthcrt takes up 2 card slots in hand, needs a +buy or card gain off another card, and an action to get you a gold's worth of payout. Massing cheap crap that does useful stuff can work, I remain skeptical that massing crap (like Duchess or Pearl Diver) will be anything other than a money sink.

Likewise, you still are basically ignoring the difficulty of pairing up your Dthcrt with stuff you want. Sifting is REALLY that useful and it would be very helpful to get more into the kind of deck structure you need to actually pair up Dthcrt with stuff to trash.

If you get Warehouses to sift, I would most likely just feed the Warehouse to the Death Cart, rather than using it to sift.

EDIT: Maybe I should make it more clear that I don't mean to spend $6 on a Pearl Diver.  I mean that if the cheapest card on the board is Death Cart, you're not going to get much use out of Death Cart.  If Pearl Diver is there, when you have $2 or $3, pick one up.  A Death Cart and a Pearl Diver in hand is better than two Silvers.
Well, there are always ruins. Death Cart+Pearl Diver gets you one more money than two silvers - you still need to be able to come up with $3 from the rest of your hand to get to province, and if you spend time buying cheap actions... I mean, you just don't hit $2 or $3 that often outside the first 4 turns or so of the game. So you really have to look at the opportunity cost, which is probably going to be at least a silver, in most cases. It's also a terminal, which means that there's going to be increased opportunity cost in terms of I can't play as many other terminals now.
Basically... it's a really weak card for a money strategy, it seems. I'm thinking it is going to do best in an engine, and you probably don't want to get it until you're up and running, so that the few extra ruins don't clog you too much. Then when you get it, it's like $5 free a few times, which can be okay, particularly if you're desperate for non-treasure forms of income. But this looks fairly niche, too.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 02:43:30 pm »
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How much stronger does Death Cart get in Shelter games?  You have an Action (Necropolis) in your deck to start with, does that make opening with Death Cart more viable?  I mean, I'm sure it makes it more viable, but how big a difference is it?
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 03:37:23 pm »
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I'd guess the best place for a Death Cart is to quickly add money to an overdrawn engine. You spend $4 (or a single play of a gainer) to get it, and you immediately get $5 to spend for the next three turns - or more, if you're willing to sacrifice existing components already, or if you already had occasions to pick up pearl divers or whatever, or if you can TR/KC it on the last turn. And it's likely that after you've built up your engine you don't have more than three turns of greening until the game ends anyway.
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jomini

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 04:13:43 pm »
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If you get Warehouses to sift, I would most likely just feed the Warehouse to the Death Cart, rather than using it to sift.

EDIT: Maybe I should make it more clear that I don't mean to spend $6 on a Pearl Diver.  I mean that if the cheapest card on the board is Death Cart, you're not going to get much use out of Death Cart.  If Pearl Diver is there, when you have $2 or $3, pick one up.  A Death Cart and a Pearl Diver in hand is better than two Silvers.


Well, for starters, you often draw the the Dthcrt AFTER having played a Wrhou, so it is kinda moot. More importantly, unless you got the Wrhou for "free" (e.g. Haggler), at some point you HAD to pay for it. This is not sustainable long term, paying 3 coin to trash later for 5 is not that efficient.

Likewise, a Dthcrt & Pdiver in hand is not always better than two silvers, take a simple example - you also have a Merchant ship. Play the Dthcrt & trash Pdiver, get 5 coin. Play the Mship and silvers - get 6 coin & 2 next turn. Just how often do you really want to spend one action on only one net coin? I mean if Dthcrt & Pdiver is so much better ... why does Duchess suck so hard in so many cases? After all, Duchess pays out 2 coin for 1 action/1 card and needs no support.

Of course, most of the time you won't be sure of pairing up your cheap crap and the Dthcrt, so in reality those two Silvers (or that Silver and that Gold) start looking better and better.

I could see paying $2 to get $3 if you have a reliable engine and particularly if that $2 card does something else beside provide Dthcrt fodder. I can also see buying Ruins off spare buys if I have the +buy, reliability, etc. to support them. I can't see having a bunch of fiddly bits being worth it long run without reliability and high odds of pairing the cheap crap with the Dthcrt.

How much stronger does Death Cart get in Shelter games?  You have an Action (Necropolis) in your deck to start with, does that make opening with Death Cart more viable?  I mean, I'm sure it makes it more viable, but how big a difference is it?
Not much, Dthcrt is useful for getting big cards - like Kc, Plat, Expand, Altar, etc. and in a lot of those cases, you want to keep around the Necro most of the time because you are aiming at engines and crappy as Necro is as a village, it is still a village and it greatly increases engine reliability. If you aren't going engine, then you likely don't care so much about pitching the Dthcrt (e.g. Forge/Dthcrt/Venture in a Colony game).

Dthcrt works well as engine payload in some cases, particularly those that draw well, but again those engines tend to be the ones where you actively want the Necro.

I just haven't seen that many cases where opening Dthcrt is good, but where I'm also overly concern with missing a Ruin (I mean sure I'd rather hit the Ruin, but it isn't game ending if I have to pitch the Dthcrt for my Forge).
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 04:19:43 pm »
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I'm not convinced opening Death Cart is good either.

While Pearl Diver doesn't actively add to your economy, it doesn't hurt either, since it's non-terminal.  I believe I mentioned Haven as particularly standout in this case.  I'll probably rework the cheap Actions section of the article.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2013, 04:31:54 pm »
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I'm not convinced opening Death Cart is good either.

While Pearl Diver doesn't actively add to your economy, it doesn't hurt either, since it's non-terminal.  I believe I mentioned Haven as particularly standout in this case.  I'll probably rework the cheap Actions section of the article.

I think the point that people are making is that picking up extra Pearl Divers to trash to DC hurts in terms of opportunity cost.  Yeah, once it is in your deck, it's generally harmless.  But what could you have bought instead of that Pearl Diver?
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2013, 04:34:10 pm »
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I'm not convinced opening Death Cart is good either.

While Pearl Diver doesn't actively add to your economy, it doesn't hurt either, since it's non-terminal.  I believe I mentioned Haven as particularly standout in this case.  I'll probably rework the cheap Actions section of the article.

I think the point that people are making is that picking up extra Pearl Divers to trash to DC hurts in terms of opportunity cost.  Yeah, once it is in your deck, it's generally harmless.  But what could you have bought instead of that Pearl Diver?

At $2?  Not much - again, I'm not saying you should spend $5 on a Pearl Diver.  And you will get hands of $2, unless you have immaculate shuffle luck.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2013, 04:35:10 pm »
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Really? In most games, you often won't have hands of $2 very often if at all.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2013, 04:41:56 pm »
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Really? In most games, you often won't have hands of $2 very often if at all.

Thought -- are $2 hands more common in games when you buy Death Cart?  If you open DC, those 2 dead Ruins might result in more $2 hands.  If this is the case, then is the DC worth having those dead cards and $2 hands?  Again, opportunity costs.  Maybe it's better to buy a different card, avoid the Ruins, and have better hands to buy other better things.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2013, 07:31:44 pm »
+1

Wero:  You currently state, "but there are certain instances where Death Cart is a must buy.  Any time you have a board with cheap, crappy Actions like Pearl Diver or Vagrant, pick up a handful for Death Cart to grind up."

This is bad advice. First, as I understand Dark Ages rules, you can always just buy Ruins, yeah Ruins suck, but they only require a +buy, not spending 2 coin. If you can support buying crappy Pdivers you can't play most of the time, then you can likely support just buying Ruins.

Second, sure when you have 2 coin you rarely can make your deck worse with Pdiver, sure, but the question is: How much does having Pdiver out tip you toward buying Dthcrt instead of, say Silver or Baron or whatever else is out there?

The answer is, not too much. The only price points where you really might want to buy Pdiver with low opportunity cost are $2, $3, $7 (with 2 buys), $10 (2 buys, even here it is sketchy). If you expect to hit these a lot, it is something other than Pdiver putting you there.



But let's say you have just built an engine that consistently hits 10 (no provinces yet) and has 2 buys with no Ruins left in game. Okay so you hit your first 10, trashing the last ruin in your deck, what do you buy? A Pdiver and a Prov? 2 Labs? Or how about a Gold & a useful 4 (including say a Dthcrt)/Silver?

If you buy the Pdiver, you get zero benefit from if you don't play it. If you do play it, then you can't use your Dthcrt to kill it. How about the gold case? Best case scenario, you manage to consistently hit it with the Dthcrt every turn for the next 2 turns and buy 4 Prov total (one from the last Ruin and three from Pdiver trashing).

If you buy Gold/Silver, then you can trash the Dthcrt for a payout of 15 coin. This lets you buy Gold/Prov. From here on out you can hit 16 coin, letting you buy 5 Prov over those same 4 turns.

Both options have close to the same space efficiency until after you buy the fifth province: the first is +2 cards (Pdiver/Prov) on the first turn and +1 card each turn thereafter; the second is +2 cards the first turn, +1 on the second and +2 on the third and fourth.

Which gets back to what I was saying about Dthcrt becoming a gimped gold once you have to pay for fodder - for a LOT of setups, swapping the Dthcrt for a gold works. There are times where, yes you want to trash an action - perhaps even a Kc - in order to keep the Dthcrt for one more turn. However, for a small price in tempo, you can often come out ahead buying the gold and then pitching the Dthcrt. Like Fool's gold there are times where losing Tempo kills you, there are other times to get out of high payout matching cards and into nice solid Gold.

The important thing with Dthcrt is either to use it when you are OK one-offing it to leap at some hugely important card (e.g. Altar, Forge, Kc) or as a means of juicing an engine for a few turns (particularly if your terminal trasher gives you 4 plays before its gone). Pdiver or something else cheap, crappy, and harmless being out is very much an icing on the cake sort of thing, it isn't enough to go Dthcrt and it isn't enough to make me buy Pdivers when I otherwise wouldn't (excepting edge cases). I care far more about needing an early slingshot to some big card or juicing an engine when I consider Dthcrt.


« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:45:54 pm by jomini »
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sandstorm

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2013, 08:52:18 pm »
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jomini mentioned that Death Cart is good with cultist because you can trash it and get +3 cards/+5 coins.  But there is another reason Death Cart is really good with Cultist (and to a lesser extent Marauder).  After the cultist war is over and the ruins are empty you can gain Death Carts without their baggage. They help you clean up your deck while giving you massive buying power.

Death Cart also has sort of a strange interaction in 2p since there are only 10 ruins in the pile.  This means that the bottom 5 Death Carts will not come with extra ruins.  This can be a good or bad thing.  This also means that the Death Cart, Duchy, Ruin rush gets much harder at 3P (20 ruins) and nearly impossible at 4P (30 ruins).

EDIT: Of course the Death Cart,Duchy,Ruin rush is also harder in 3 or 4 player game because of the greater number of duchies in the supply.  But can also be easier if someone else is also going for the rush.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 08:59:59 pm by sandstorm »
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jamespotter

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2013, 09:46:53 am »
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IMO, the ruins gained with Death Cart are almost always a liability. Sure, an early collision will sustain your Death Cart for one more turn, but overall, they are a disadvantage similar to the two copper gained with Cache. My main reasoning for this is that Death Cart is a "one shot" 4- cost that produces $5. In the secret histories, Donald says that Feast was originally a one-shot 4- cost that produced $3 and it was too powerful. By this reasoning, the ruins must be a serious disadvantage, which they are in actual play.

I would seldom buy Death Cart, unless there was a good combo like Trader or Watchtower in the kingdom. If I were to buy it, I would see it as buying a powerful one shot that comes with a penalty, because most of the time, that's what it is.
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ipofanes

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2013, 10:30:50 am »
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I would seldom buy Death Cart, unless there was a good combo like Trader or Watchtower in the kingdom.
"In the kingdom" wouldn't cut it, I presume you mean "in hand", since you want to use the reaction part of the cards you mentioned?
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jamespotter

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2013, 12:29:41 pm »
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Yes, you' 're right...my mistake.
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2013, 12:43:41 pm »
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So to sum up, the issue we're debating is whether Death Cart is viable as a long-term trash-for-benefit, or if it's best used as a one-shot.  Personally I lean toward the former, but everyone seems to be disagreeing with me.
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