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werothegreat

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Death Cart
« on: January 03, 2013, 10:05:10 am »
+2

(work in progress)

LET'S OVERHAUL THIS BITCH


This is Death Cart; look upon its works, ye Mighty, and despair.  Death Cart provides the single largest +Coin benefit of any card, barring variable Coin producers like Vault and Secret Chamber.  It is one of the new Looter cards from Dark Ages, and the only one that is not an Attack.  It instead gives Ruins to the buyer, which, along with the choice to either trash it or another Action card when played, is meant to serve as a counterbalance to the ridiculous amount of Coin it produces.

What does it do?  Death Cart, unlike many Dark Ages cards, is pretty straightforward.  Trash Death Cart or another Action, +$5.  Unlike trashers like Chapel, Count or Remake, the intent of Death Cart is not to clear your deck of junk - the intent of Death Cart is to produce money, with a little sacrifice required, in the vein of cards like Salvager.  Sometimes the sacrifice is easy - when you have a Ruined Village in your hand with it.  Sometimes the sacrifice is hard - when you have a Mountebank in your hand with it.  Do you trash the Mountebank, or do you get your final use of Death Cart?

Now compare Death Cart to a similar card - Baron.  Baron costs $4, gives a fairly ridiculous amount of Coin, and discards a specific card.  This means it doesn't have to keep looking for fuel, like Death Cart does, and Baron can even generate its own fuel when running low.  Add in a +Buy, and you start to wonder whether the extra +1 Coin is worth it.  It is.  It really, really is.  To be fair, on a board with no cheap Actions and no Village, I would probably choose Baron over Death Cart, just because I would get more use out of him.  But for Baron and Death Cart to appear in the same kingdom with such a setup is very rare, so the point is practically moot.  For most boards, Death Cart will be superior, simply because that extra +$1 makes it that much easier to snag a Province.

But the fact that Death Cart trashes is important, so let's make another analogy - to Moneylender.  Moneylender is a great opening card, as your deck starts off full of fuel for it - fuel which you're only too glad to get rid of.  But whereas Moneylender starts off with 7 uses, Death Cart starts off with only 3, and 2 of those come at the cost of adding junk to your deck.  So Death Cart is not going to slim your deck down.

The Duchy rush gets a lot easier with Death Cart, as it does with Altar.  A Death Cart in hand at least guarantees a Duchy, so if you're having trouble getting the extra coin in your hand to make it to Province, go for a three-pile of Duchies, Death Carts and Ruins, which will empty in just five Death Cart buys, barring usage of Trader.

When should I buy it?  Death Cart can be a massive help on certain boards, but there are certain instances where Death Cart is a must buy.  If your Death Cart is to last long at all, it needs Actions to trash.  When is your deck going to be filled with Actions?  In an engine.  In order for an engine to work, it usually needs +Buy, and in a Death Cart engine, those +Buys can often be spent on cheap Actions - preferably non-terminals that won't hurt your deck.  A standout example is Haven - it can either be fed to the Death Cart on a turn that will field $8, or save that Death Cart for next turn.  Sifters like Cellar or Warehouse are less good for this, for, while they can get you to Actions to trash or can be trashed themselves, they decrease your handsize, thus decreasing your chance of making $8 this turn.  But an engine is supposed to be drawing your entire deck anyway, and in that context, Death Cart can easily net you an extra Province or Duchy each turn.  Alternative ways to acquire cheap Actions, outside of using +Buys, can be very helpful, such as with Ironworks.  Gainers are especially nice because they can create Death Cart fodder for this turn, rather than next turn, as a +Buy would.

Also be aware that you should not go out of your way to find fodder for Death Cart.  If you have more than $2 or $3 to spend with your final Buy, it should probably be spent on a Victory card, a Treasure, or an engine part, rather than on a cheap Action.  It is usually better to just let Death Cart self-trash than to try to buy out the Pearl Divers.  And in the end game, you may find yourself feeding more expensive Actions to Death Cart, simply because doing so is better for getting those Provinces.  It may sometimes be better to feed a $5 Action to the Death Cart in the final turns so you can Scheme that Death Cart for next turn, rather than allowing it to self-trash.  Other times, self-trashing is the correct move.  It will depend heavily on how the Provinces are split at the moment, how many are left, and how close you are to a reshuffle.

Perhaps the single best combo with Death Cart is Rats.  What does Death Cart want to eat?  Useless Actions.  What does Rats do?  Fill your deck with useless Actions.  I may not have made this clear enough in my Rats article, but Death Cart/Rats is a quite powerful combo.  When these two are on the board, Rats should be your first $4 buy, and Death Cart should be your second.  Give preference to trashing Rats over the Ruins, as the Ruins will be more useful to you than the Rats, and the Rats draw you a card when trashed, which is a nice little bonus.  The Rats should also be given trash preference because if they aren't, they'll quickly overrun your deck.  Ironworks can fill a similar role, in that it can produce lots of copies of itself, but the key differences here are that 1) There are only 10 Ironworks in the pile, and 2) Rats replaces cards, while Ironworks adds cards, so Death Cart will find Actions to eat a lot more often with a Rats deck.

The second best combo with Death Cart is Fortress.  Fortress is infinite fuel for your Death Carts, and provides the +Actions necessary to guarantee Province buys.  But beware - oftentimes such boards also have engines and other trashers to take advantage of Fortress - Salvaging a Fortress will net $1 less, but gives a very crucial +Buy that can pick up the winning Duchy.  An engine strategy using other cards on the board can beat a non-engine Death Cart strategy, so if you need to spend a couple turns picking up engine parts to draw your Death Carts more often, do so.

Death Cart is also a great defense against Looters - not only does a Death Cart buy decrease the Ruins pile substantially in the first place, but a Death Cart can turn those nasty Ruinses into wonderful coins for buying Provinces.

Now, there are two meanings of "when" here - we've address the sense of "in which kingdoms," but not "on what turn."  Opening Death Cart is usually not a good idea, unless you're using it to self-trash into a better card.  You typically want to wait until you have at least the beginnings of an engine before adding Death Cart to the mix - that way, the Ruins will hurt less, and you'll be more likely to make that Death Cart hit fodder.

Should I ever buy Death Cart outside the context of an engine?  Usually not.  Death Cart/BM is not a good strategy.  Adding Treasures to your deck decreases the chances of your Death Cart ever seeing those Ruins, or any other Actions for that matter, quickly turning Death Cart into either a one-shot or a useless card in your deck, along with two Ruins.  Now, Death Cart can be used as a slingshot card, like Mining Village or Feast, to get you to the better cards in the kingdom, but unlike those other cards, it comes with junk, which, once your Death Cart is gone, you now have no way to get rid of.

How can I counter it?  You might be tempted to buy out a pile of cheap Actions to deny the Death Cart player fuel, but even if you were successful at that, a self-trashing Death Cart will still be useful to them, and you’ll be stuck with cheap Actions and no real economy.

As for countering with Attacks: Looters are absolutely useless against a Death Cart deck, as all they're doing is giving the Death Cart a longer lifespan.  Discard Attacks can help, but a hand of Death Cart, Gold, and a crappy action can still net a Province.  Even without the Gold, the Death Cart can still pick up a Duchy.  A lucky Saboteur could knock out a Death Cart, but unlike using Saboteur against Rebuild, there's too much other stuff for Saboteur to hit that the Death Cart player won't mind losing.  The best Attacks to use against Death Cart are Cursers and Ambassador, as the deck-clogging will make it harder for them to get to their Death Carts, and harder for them to line up their Death Carts with suitable targets.  Mountebank is the king here, as Curses and Coppers are equally useless to a Death Cart player, though extra Coppers could give a self-trashing Province buy.  If you can make it work, Swindler is also a standout, as it can turn Ruins and Coppers into Curses, or Death Cart into a Potion.  However, this does limit you to the luck of whatever happens to be on top of your opponent's deck.  And a chain of Rabbles could leave your opponent with a hand full of Victory cards, leaving them nothing to feed to the Death Cart, and not enough funds to buy a Province.

Other combinations: Like with any trashing card, Market Square is very nice with Death Cart - it gives +Buy, gives you a Gold (which is nice if you have to trash an Action you didn't quite want to, besides making it that much easier to hit $8), and in a pinch can be fodder.

Band of Misfits is nice with Death Cart - if you don't feel like picking up Ruins, you can instead pick up a Band of Misfits and use it as a Death Cart when the hand to do so arises.

Works well with:
Rats
Fortress
Market Square
Band of Misfits
Haven
Engines
Action gainers

Counter with:
A solid engine
Cursers
Ambassador
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 12:26:29 am by werothegreat »
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ipofanes

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 11:47:31 am »
0

When should I buy? - cheap actions to trash, Rats

(untested in games so far) Wandering Minstrel, Scrying Pool.
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jonts26

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 12:41:54 pm »
+1

It should be noted that the ruins you gain are not completely a penalty. Those ruins are the exact sort of thing you'd like to trash with death cart. But an opening of death cart might be decent if you can get it to collide with a ruins. I'm not sure the probability of that, but it's actually probably not that great.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 03:03:20 pm »
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Should work well with cheap action card gainers in general.  You mention Rats.  Also consider Ironworks, maybe Hermit.

Might be a decent counter against other Looters, since the Ruins you get from them are useful for keeping DC around.

Not sure why you say not to buy it in Colony games.  It can be great in Colony games as a slingshot to Platinum.
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jomini

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 07:52:22 pm »
+1

Deathcart is phenomenal at hitting Plat early, it is a VERY strong opening on colony boards.

A few other options:
1. King's Court. Okay so Death Cart gets you an early Kc pretty easy (even if you have to trash the Dthcrt), but it also is a great target for Kc, yeah you have to pitch it, but you can easily buy another AND a province if you have any +buy.
2. Procession. +10 coin, gain a 5. As an added bonus, Prssn can clear out leftover Ruins.
3. Throne Room. +10 coin, useful options with Ruins.
4. Haven/Courtyard/Count/etc. - save the Dthcrt/Ruins until you can line them up, or setup strong hands of Dthcrts/+buy/+action.
5. Grand Market, Dthcrt and ruins can be good at getting the Gm without too much fuss, the +coin on abandoned Mine is actually useful, and potentially better than copper.
6. Cultist - not only is it likely that you will get plenty of Ruins from the other guy, but +3 cards/+5 coin is extremely good late game.
7. Market Square - Trash a Ruins, gain a gold, buy a gold.
8. Squire - +5 coin, gain a Goons.
9. Altar - quickly mass the 5's (e.g. Minion).
10. Mint - thin your deck, pitch the now useless Mint to the Dthcrt.
11. Fortress - All you action problems are solved.
12. Graverobber/Rogue - gain dead actions to supply a nice Dthcrt engine.
13. Transmute - yeah, slow as hell, not likely to be worth the potion ... but you do get a steady supply of actions & Dthcrt can trash em for good effect. Something like Transmute/Scrying Pool or Transmute/University can move from marginal to effective on the strength of Transmute.
14. Bridge/Highway/Princess - Make cheap actions free and plentiful, get big payouts for your $5 coin.
15. Tournament - early province.

In general, Dthcrt allows you to have much better odds of more quickly getting some expensive card; this alone can be worth it (e.g. Forge on a Witch board). It is perfectly legit to buy Dthcrt and burn it to get the big card and just suck up the leftover Ruins, particularly if you have support like Warehouse or Hunting Party for playing the big card often. Another way to play Dthcrt is to build it as a reliable source of payload in an engine. $5 coin out for 2 cards worth of space isn't a bad trade, particularly for only 4 coin, but it is a bit more restrictive than other cards like that. For instance Baron doesn't deplete its targets, can gain more of them, and gives you the +buy to use the coins more easily. Dthcrt requires that you build in an additional gain (at least every 3 turns if you are gaining Dthcrts) or +buy and you cannot reuse the target card, like with Baron.

An additional use for Dthcrt is as rush enabler. You can get a lot of quick mileage from buying & using Dthcrts to pile out the Ruins, Duchies, and something else (e.g. Dthcrt). You need sifting, gaining, alt-VP or something else to make it work well, but you can empty the Ruins pile with 3 Dthcrt gains and one Ruin buy.
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 12:56:35 am »
+1

The article has been filled out some.

Jomini, I'm only including specific standout card interactions.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 12:15:17 pm »
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The article has been filled out some.

Jomini, I'm only including specific standout card interactions.

I know, the point is more that the cards which have some synergy point towards "how to play" and "when to buy". Take a card like Count. It isn't the best synergy with Death Cart, and to be honest I've only ever played it in a colony game, but Count does several things to work well with Dthcrt. It can be used to trash down the dross Dthcrt doesn't like (estates, coppers), it can help line up big turns (top deck a Ruin or Dthcrt), and with a village it can help setup Province buying turns without coin. Is pure Count faster? Maybe. But the synergies show a nice class of things your Dthcrt likes.

1. Being able to top deck cards is big with Dthcrt - it makes it MUCH easier to line up crappy actions with the Dthcrt or to save the Dthcrt until you need it (e.g. Mandarin/Gold/Silver/Dthcrt is massively better than Cache/Gold/Silver/Death Cart) or can use it. +5 coin is worthless if you've already hit 8 (or 11) with a +buy. This can be particularly good if you end up getting unexpected curses (e.g. they draw the only curser from the Black Market, you lose the race to followers).
2. Trashing is very handy with Dthcrt. Double province engines work with Dthcrt with only three payload actions (and 1 copper), setting up to reliably draw those, the +actions to play them all, and the +buy to get more actions/the second province is MUCH easier if you trash out the coppers and estates. This also means that even less useful trashing like Loan or Moneylender can be useful if the game will last long enough (e.g. colonies, discard attacks, deck inspection attacks, Alt-VP).
3. If there isn't +buy you'd really rather play some other action(s) or coins than a second Dthcrt for your provinces. +10 coin is overkill and requires you to line up a 4 card combo to keep the Dthcrts. Something simple like Count, Minion, Menage, etc. are all very good playing single Dthcrt.

Take a few other combos:
Squire. Squire provides several things that Dthcrt really likes: +actions to enable draw -> Dthcrt (trash something besides the Dthcrt) and maybe double Dthcrt plays, +buy (to get those nice double province turns), and on-trash benefits (Dthcrt/Squire/Minion is a good engine). With strong attacks out (e.g. Minion, Familiar, Scyring Pool, Goons, Torturer, and perhaps even Rabble, Ghost Ship, or Margrave) the on-trash benefit can be the strongest part of this.

Likewise Market Square gives you on-trash benefits AND provides you cantrip +buy. This can allow you to easily bootstrap to an efficient deck quickly. Afterall, you need 3 coin in your other 3 carts to make Dthcrt into a province (until you sacrifice it) - but if you have been getting gold with your Ruins trashing, it is that much easier.

Or take the combos-with-everything Watchtower. You can do all sorts of fun stuff - top deck a Ruin & Dthcrt on buy to assure a collision next turn. Use some non-cantrip +action and Dthcrt's -2 cards for big draw (e.g. Hamlet/Wt/Dthcrt is very nice at setting up big turns). Dthcrt, again, likes top deck control so you can line it and Ruins up. Dthcrt likes draw, and is particularly good in limited draw engines (though pretty crappy in most Jack setups). Another very nice combos all over the place card is Tactician - it gives you the big hand you want to play the Dthcrt on Ruins, it gives you the +buy to purchase new Ruins, and it gives the +action to allow for two Dthcrt plays (or to easily make a double-tac engine). Live draw is big for Dthcrt.
 
A few other things you might want to mention on this "when to buy" and "how to play lines:
1. Sifting. Cheap sifting actions let you play your Dthcrt more often and let you have more targets for it. Things like Cellar and Warehouse are quite nice here. Not enough to auto-buy Dthcrt, but something that moves you toward it.
2. +buy in general. You can just buy Ruins (I believe the rules are that they are yet another Kingdom pile) and you may actually want to split a 6 or 7 coin hand into Dthcrt + something else. With +action as well, you can get a lot more mileage out of multiple Dthcrts.
3. Gainers. You mention Iw, but there are a lot more gainers that can make Dthcrt better. Take Haggler. It provides you with 2 of the 3 coin you need to hit province, as a bonus you can a second card (like say another Haggler or Dthcrt) with your province purchase and keep odds good for more provinces. Things like Altar, Develop, Upgrade can all convert your estates into actions and each has other bonuses (Altar and Upgrade can thin Copper, Develop can be used on actions to gain 2 more actions, Upgrade is Cantrip, and Altar can mass things like Lab or Minion).

Ways to stop Dthcrt:
1. Deplete the crappy cards he's gaining to keep the Dthcrts alive. Watchtower is phenomenal here, using spare +buys to down the Ruins can make him spend actual coin on keeping Dthcrts alive. Princess/Watchtower (Highway/Bridge) can also down 2 coin cards to deprive the Dthcrt of fodder. This can be particularly strong if he ends up leaving a quick & easy 3-pile while building an engine.
2. Swindler. Ruins -> Curse is vicious. Dthcrt -> Potion (or just about any other 4) is very nasty because not only have they lost their power card, but they may have 2 now useless Ruins in deck. 2 coin actions -> Estate is nastier than normal and 3/4 coin actions -> silver/potion can also make it very hard to line things up.
3. Mass Rabble. Normally discarding Ruins is bad, but with Dthcrt, Rabble leaves you with green and makes it very hard to do more with Dthcrt than get a one-off duchy.
4. Discard/Masq. Gold/Dthcrt hands are still possible, but Masqing from a 3 (or even 4) card hand is pretty nasty as you may well end up being forces to give away a one-off Plat or your gold.
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 02:37:12 pm »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 02:38:21 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 04:51:55 pm »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

Fortress is worth a direct mention, but I'm not sure Rats is.  Instead, generalize to "cheap non-terminal action gainers", of which Rats is one.  Rats has some advantages in that it is cantrip and has a small on-trash bonus, but I don't think it is so much greater than Ironworks, for example.
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werothegreat

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 04:55:00 pm »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

Fortress is worth a direct mention, but I'm not sure Rats is.  Instead, generalize to "cheap non-terminal action gainers", of which Rats is one.  Rats has some advantages in that it is cantrip and has a small on-trash bonus, but I don't think it is so much greater than Ironworks, for example.

Rats is much greater than Ironworks in this instance, because Rats clones itself and replaces other cards, which Ironworks doesn't.  So you can only gain a new card in a hand you have Ironworks (so, once or twice per shuffle).  But you can play Rats several times per shuffle.  And since Rats replaces instead of adding, you get to the crappy Actions you want to trash more often.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 05:00:10 pm »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

Fortress is worth a direct mention, but I'm not sure Rats is.  Instead, generalize to "cheap non-terminal action gainers", of which Rats is one.  Rats has some advantages in that it is cantrip and has a small on-trash bonus, but I don't think it is so much greater than Ironworks, for example.

Rats is much greater than Ironworks in this instance, because Rats clones itself and replaces other cards, which Ironworks doesn't.  So you can only gain a new card in a hand you have Ironworks (so, once or twice per shuffle).  But you can play Rats several times per shuffle.  And since Rats replaces instead of adding, you get to the crappy Actions you want to trash more often.

I cede that trashing out Coppers/Estates can be useful for DC to find actions to trash.  Not sure what you mean about playing several times per shuffle though.  When you play Rats, you gain 1 Rats.  When you play IW, you can choose to gain 1 IW.  The differences are that Rats will draw and trash a card while IW does neither.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 05:03:49 pm »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

Fortress is worth a direct mention, but I'm not sure Rats is.  Instead, generalize to "cheap non-terminal action gainers", of which Rats is one.  Rats has some advantages in that it is cantrip and has a small on-trash bonus, but I don't think it is so much greater than Ironworks, for example.

Rats is much greater than Ironworks in this instance, because Rats clones itself and replaces other cards, which Ironworks doesn't.  So you can only gain a new card in a hand you have Ironworks (so, once or twice per shuffle).  But you can play Rats several times per shuffle.  And since Rats replaces instead of adding, you get to the crappy Actions you want to trash more often.

I cede that trashing out Coppers/Estates can be useful for DC to find actions to trash.  Not sure what you mean about playing several times per shuffle though.  When you play Rats, you gain 1 Rats.  When you play IW, you can choose to gain 1 IW.  The differences are that Rats will draw and trash a card while IW does neither.

True.  You can gain Ironworks with Ironworks - forgot about that.  I was just thinking of Ironworksing Pearl Divers or something.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 05:08:52 pm »
0

True.  You can gain Ironworks with Ironworks - forgot about that.  I was just thinking of Ironworksing Pearl Divers or something.

So there are some advantages/disadvantages to either side.  Rats is a bit faster because it will cycle and trash, and also provides a on-trash bonus.  However, Rats will only gain more Rats, and there is some danger of over-trashing such that DC can't keep the Rats population under control.

IW is a bit more flexible because it can gain itself OR other actions (that may be more useful when drawn without DC) OR treasure/VP.  Unfortunately, it does not cycle (some exceptions: Great Hall, Island, Nobles with price reduction).

But the main advantage is that they are both cheap ways of maintaining a steady supply of DC fodder.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2013, 10:17:59 pm »
0

Fortress is worth a direct mention, but I'm not sure Rats is.  Instead, generalize to "cheap non-terminal action gainers", of which Rats is one.
And Ironworks is the other.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2013, 10:43:29 pm »
+1

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're not trailing in points.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:53:35 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2013, 10:44:23 pm »
+1

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Quote
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're ahead enough in points.
No no no no no no no no no.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 10:50:07 pm »
+1

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Quote
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're ahead enough in points.
No no no no no no no no no.

But... but... PPR...

I misphrased that.  My mistake.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:53:02 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 10:53:32 pm »
0

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Quote
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're ahead enough in points.
No no no no no no no no no.

But... but... PPR...
Yes, PPR. Which is not what you're saying there at all. And also generally really overrated. It's important, but ti's not the hugely game-warping thing people make it out to be. But most important, go read the actual PPR, which is quite well done, and does not cover NEARLY so many cases as people make out. People seem to think it means everything almost up to 'never buy the penultimate province', but it really doesn't.
And of course, you have to look at how the decks are stalling vs their longevity, what other cheaper VP options there are, etc. etc.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 10:55:18 pm »
+1

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Quote
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're ahead enough in points.
No no no no no no no no no.

But... but... PPR...
Yes, PPR. Which is not what you're saying there at all. And also generally really overrated. It's important, but ti's not the hugely game-warping thing people make it out to be. But most important, go read the actual PPR, which is quite well done, and does not cover NEARLY so many cases as people make out. People seem to think it means everything almost up to 'never buy the penultimate province', but it really doesn't.
And of course, you have to look at how the decks are stalling vs their longevity, what other cheaper VP options there are, etc. etc.

I did so.  What do you think of the article itself?
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 11:08:25 pm »
0

Also, for those interested, the 1st and 2nd rules of Dominion are:

1) Depends on the Kingdom.
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Quote
2) Only buy the penultimate Province if you're ahead enough in points.
No no no no no no no no no.

But... but... PPR...
Yes, PPR. Which is not what you're saying there at all. And also generally really overrated. It's important, but ti's not the hugely game-warping thing people make it out to be. But most important, go read the actual PPR, which is quite well done, and does not cover NEARLY so many cases as people make out. People seem to think it means everything almost up to 'never buy the penultimate province', but it really doesn't.
And of course, you have to look at how the decks are stalling vs their longevity, what other cheaper VP options there are, etc. etc.

I did so.  What do you think of the article itself?
It's changed a lot since I read it, so I just went back through. Well, I think I've played two games, IRL, with death cart, and I don't think I even bought one. So I really don't know much. But there are quite a few things in the article which I would be absolutely SHOCKED if they were actually correct.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2013, 11:26:49 pm »
+1

It's changed a lot since I read it, so I just went back through. Well, I think I've played two games, IRL, with death cart, and I don't think I even bought one. So I really don't know much. But there are quite a few things in the article which I would be absolutely SHOCKED if they were actually correct.

Those being?
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2013, 11:39:10 pm »
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I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

The essence of Death Cart is that is either a huge one shot payment that junks your deck or it is a large payload card that needs to be paired with trashing targets.

Using it as a one-shot is perfectly fine if the one shot is powerful enough to warrant junking your deck with 2 garbage cards. Forge, Kc, Expand, Altar, Plat, the first province in a Tournament game all fit in here. If you are playing it because it is the easiest way in the game to get an early 6+ coin card, that can be viable.

But say you don't get a big enough reward to one shot? What do you really need? A way to pair up Dthcrt with its targets. Enter sifting, trashing, or live draw.

Dthcrt/Fortress alone is pretty much crap, you need 4 cards in hand: any village (including Fortress), Fortress, and two Dthcrts to hit Province. Without sifting, trashing, or live draw ... good luck. However add in one simple synergy card, like say Courtyard, and suddenly this becomes a viabl-ish Colony engine.

In any event, how much Death Cart have you actually played? Market Square/Death Cart is insanely good. Play one card, discard one card - gain a gold, buy a gold; how many other 2 card combos can hit that? How many of those 2 card combos can you open? Dthcrt/Mrksqr is almost as good as Tr/Explorer with province in hand, Tr/Mint with Gold in hand, or Warehouse/Tunnel/Tunnel. Of course, on top of all that you end up with a cantrip +buy which goes a long way towards mitigating one of the problems of huge coin totals - not having the +buys to use it effectively. Yeah it works best with any one of the following: a non-terminal sifter, moderate trashing (e.g. Steward), or live draw, but that is just about every Dthcrt setup minus Rats.

Right now your article is dead wrong on several key aspects: Dthcrt doesn't give a damn about treasure, it cares about the likelihood of pairing it with a junk action to trash. One way to do that is to have a big engine with a high action-card density. Another is to use cards to sift for you. Hunting Party/Plat/Dthcrt/Copper is an assured colony and the Hunting Parties will find your Ruins easily. Other options, like top decking, draw & sift, Tactician, etc. all work extremely well with Plat/Dthcrt - even without +action. On most boards it is NOT just enough to have Dthcrt and a source of cheap actions - you really need a way to line things up and often a way to use whatever cash you have over 8 coin.

I mean seriously if you use Iw to gain a cheap card for Dthcrt to hit, that gives you 5 coin spread over 3 cards in the long run you had to draw (Iw, Dthcrt, and the trashed card) that's worse than silvers for a lot of engines. The big advantage of Dthcrt is that is givens a really high variance to your hands (which is good); like most high variance cards that makes sifting, big live draw, or trashing a really strong part of deciding to play it.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2013, 12:12:30 am »
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"You definitely don't want to open Death cart/silver" - well, probably you usually don't. But a more flexible feast isn't THAT bad, especially because you've got a very good chance to collide your Death cart with a ruins. I might be wrong here, though, this one wouldn't shock me that much.

You compare it to trashers; the more apt comparison is to T4B cards like trade route and salvager. Baron is at least reasonably similar.

I'm not sure that tradering the ruins is at all idiotic. In fact, I suspect it's usually the right play. But I'm not really sold on going for the duchies to three pile as you say. If this works, it's brilliant, but I imagine you've usually got something else that's better to do, and mentioning this is probably over-confusing things. I could be wrong on the duchy rush bit though.

"You really want to look for ways to keep your Death Cart puttering along for as long as possible, before letting it devour itself on your final turn buying the final Province."
Well, generally yes, you would like to get a number of plays out of it. But I bet people tend to try to hang on to DC too long more often than they give it up too early.

Your rule #3 of Dominion... it's not just that it isn't the third most important rule in dominion strategy, it's actually just wrong. In fact, I'd say this might even be the #1 misconception in Dominion - people hate hate HATE overpaying for things, but a lot of times, you really really need to. Remember, never buy herbalist for less than $8 (or was it woodcutter for less than $11?) Either way, though that's obviously hyperbole, you sometimes need to bite the bullet and take a relatively inefficient-compared-to-what-it-can-sometimes-do-or-what-you're-paying-for-it card. You really really do.

Your point about death carts wanting to east useless actions and rats filling your deck with them is a fallacy. Truly, you would rather have useful actions than useful ones. Even if you have to trash them. Better cards are just better, because MAYBE you won't trash them. Having said that, the action percentage is the big thing, and the on-trash benefit is nice, and it doesn't matter so much if they're useless.

"Death Cart/Rats is probably the single best combo in all of Dominion." There's no way. There is NO WAY. Ironworks/Workshop/Silk Road/Gardens/Island? Even two card combos, Chapel/Bishop, Native Village/Bridge, Wharf/FG, Hunting Party/Baron, Irownworks/Gardens, Ironworks/Silk Road, any number of Deck Deletion pins (eh, I guess these are three) - point is, I'd be stunned if DC/Rats is CLOSE to the best. I don't doubt that it's good. But not the best.

"This combo is probably the entire reason Donald X. made these two cards." Despite everything I've said before, this is clearly the most implausible thing in the article.

DC/Rats/Fortress - surely this is strong, but I bet even with this best-case scenario, lots of stuff is stronger. I mean, how fast is this? Can you give some turn benchmarks?

"A Death Cart is never a bad investment" - surely it is sometimes, if at least for the opportunity cost. EVERY card has weaknesses.

"On most boards, you can't really counter Death Cart, so the best option is to go for Death Cart yourself."
If this were the case, the card would be just way overpowered. I trust that Donald did not make such a blatantly dominant card. I'm sure there are ways to do things about it. Most probably, you can outrace it on a lot of boards. I mean, you are talking about getting cheap, useless actions, but if you're buying cards JUST to be fuel for another card, even if that card gives you $5 (over 2 cards, remember! This is worse money density than gold. BM fool's gold should take it down, too. Obviously it works best in an engine, but then you don't really want to feed engine components to it, because you want that engine to run. Well, anyway, this is an overall assessment aside based on very little experience...)

"...so buy out the Moat pile to make the other player have to feed more expensive things to Death Cart."
This seems like really terrible advice. I mean, it's not like you are ever going to run them out of fodder, and moats are probably not going to do much for you. But denial, denial of actions just really isn't going to work. Remember that whatever you are buying may hurt them, but it will probably hurt you quite a bit, too. Meanwhile the DC player is doing something useful. So I think, generally to counter you should outrace, give junking attacks, outrace, and look for three pile endings at advantageous times. Did I mention to outrace? Also you should be able to come up with a long game strategy in some cases, as I suspect that death cart will run out of steam. But action denial is just asking to lose worse. Have you ever seen this actually work?

I bet ambassador is even better than mountebank at countering - probably deserves a mention.

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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2013, 12:20:33 am »
+1

I'm sure that's all interesting, but, as LastFootnote pointed out, most of this is tl;dr.  I'd rather get to the essence of of Death Cart and point out those cards that have a great interaction with Death Cart specifically, these being Rats and Fortress.  I'm not going to list every interaction with every Dominion card.

EDIT: However, I will take your points on countering Death Cart into consideration.

The essence of Death Cart is that is either a huge one shot payment that junks your deck or it is a large payload card that needs to be paired with trashing targets.

Right.

Quote from: jomini
Using it as a one-shot is perfectly fine if the one shot is powerful enough to warrant junking your deck with 2 garbage cards. Forge, Kc, Expand, Altar, Plat, the first province in a Tournament game all fit in here. If you are playing it because it is the easiest way in the game to get an early 6+ coin card, that can be viable.

But say you don't get a big enough reward to one shot? What do you really need? A way to pair up Dthcrt with its targets. Enter sifting, trashing, or live draw.

Fair enough.

Quote from: jomini
Dthcrt/Fortress alone is pretty much crap, you need 4 cards in hand: any village (including Fortress), Fortress, and two Dthcrts to hit Province. Without sifting, trashing, or live draw ... good luck. However add in one simple synergy card, like say Courtyard, and suddenly this becomes a viabl-ish Colony engine.

Um, or just Death Cart, Fortress, and three Coppers.  Getting +Actions from Fortress is just a bonus here - the real draw of the card is that it turns Death Cart Baron-ish - your fuel supply no longer dries up, so you can focus on buying Victory stuff, and not buying more crap to trash every turn.

Quote from: jomini
In any event, how much Death Cart have you actually played? Market Square/Death Cart is insanely good. Play one card, discard one card - gain a gold, buy a gold; how many other 2 card combos can hit that? How many of those 2 card combos can you open? Dthcrt/Mrksqr is almost as good as Tr/Explorer with province in hand, Tr/Mint with Gold in hand, or Warehouse/Tunnel/Tunnel. Of course, on top of all that you end up with a cantrip +buy which goes a long way towards mitigating one of the problems of huge coin totals - not having the +buys to use it effectively. Yeah it works best with any one of the following: a non-terminal sifter, moderate trashing (e.g. Steward), or live draw, but that is just about every Dthcrt setup minus Rats.

I'll admit that Market Square just seemed obvious.  It comboes with pretty much any card that trashes.  I was trying to limit the article to cards that specifically interact with the "I want to trash lots of cheap Actions" aspect of Death Cart.  And I have played a fair amount with Death Cart - not really any Colony games, though.  For that, I was mainly extrapolating.  Just played one with it, and Death Cart was indeed very effective in slingshotting up to Platinum, but there was also Forager and Farming Village on the board.

Quote from: jomini
Right now your article is dead wrong on several key aspects: Dthcrt doesn't give a damn about treasure, it cares about the likelihood of pairing it with a junk action to trash. One way to do that is to have a big engine with a high action-card density. Another is to use cards to sift for you. Hunting Party/Plat/Dthcrt/Copper is an assured colony and the Hunting Parties will find your Ruins easily. Other options, like top decking, draw & sift, Tactician, etc. all work extremely well with Plat/Dthcrt - even without +action. On most boards it is NOT just enough to have Dthcrt and a source of cheap actions - you really need a way to line things up and often a way to use whatever cash you have over 8 coin.

I mean seriously if you use Iw to gain a cheap card for Dthcrt to hit, that gives you 5 coin spread over 3 cards in the long run you had to draw (Iw, Dthcrt, and the trashed card) that's worse than silvers for a lot of engines. The big advantage of Dthcrt is that is givens a really high variance to your hands (which is good); like most high variance cards that makes sifting, big live draw, or trashing a really strong part of deciding to play it.

I'll mention sifting/draw, and amend the Colony discussion.  But eHalcyon suggested Ironworks, not me.
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Re: Death Cart
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 12:35:38 am »
+1

@WanderingWinder:

I'm probably being a little too disparaging of not being able to feed something to Death Cart.

Point taken on the comparisons.

For the Duchy rush, it's not guaranteed, but in a mirror match, the Ruins pile is going to empty, and Death Cart will guarantee a Duchy buy.

Tradering the Ruins will give you a Death Cart and two Silvers.  That should guarantee you a Province buy, but probably just one, since you'll most likely be trashing the Death Cart.  I have not tried this yet, though.

I'll mention that one shouldn't get *too* attached to one's Death Carts.

My rule 3 is not about overpaying - it's about not using all of what you pay for.  There's nothing wrong with pay $8 for  Herbalist if you really need the +Buy.  However, there is something wrong with paying $5 for a City if you don't desperately need the +Actions and there's little likelihood of a pile running out anytime soon.  There is something wrong with paying for a card, and then not using all of what you pay for.

I'll tone down the Rats bit.

And Goons and Mountebank aren't blatantly dominant?

Yeah, I picked Moat because I didn't want to say Pearl Diver or Vagrant again.

I will mention Ambassador.
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