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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards  (Read 65300 times)

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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2013, 04:02:28 pm »
0

Fishing Village and Bazaar are good in engines because of the money, I think.

Fishing Village is good because it gives +action across 2 turns and Bazaar lends more consistency than a card like Festival in engines because it draws a card.

Chapel is still overrated.

Whaaat dat shit cray

Chapel isn't go-to on every board, but how many kingdoms exist out there where you'll get totally smoked if you don't open Chapel?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 04:05:46 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2013, 04:04:30 pm »
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I think Squire is a lot like Hamlet, but not quite as good. If you use it for extra actions, it's a sub-village. If not, then the only really significant option in engines is the +2 buys. Gain silver is good for big money deck, not so much generally in engines. Finally the trash for attack can be huge in the right deck, but on average, I think the sheer utility of Hamlets outweighs it.

I am beginning to think, maybe I should have dropped it below Courtyard though.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2013, 05:46:33 pm »
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That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2013, 05:58:58 pm »
+1

That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2013, 06:21:57 pm »
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That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Fair enough. I merely wished to indicate that despite my initial enthusiasm, I now suspect we are over estimating its value.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2013, 06:32:16 pm »
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That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Embargo can change the game it's in like no other card.  Lighthouse as well.  Crossroads as well.  Hamlet and squire are always villages, and often worse than regular Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2013, 07:01:51 pm »
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And, Poor House can be a real game changer.

But, I agree with Wandering Winder. I think FG, Chapel and Courtyard are the power 2's.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2013, 12:40:17 am »
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That is true of course, but still I think Squire is usefull in more kinds of decks than Hamlet.

I used to be very excited about Squire. The more I try to use it, however, the more convinced I am that it is an assist or helpful card and rarely a power unto itself, which isn't too surprising for a $2. I believe that it will be a nuance card and something used to give your strategy a bit of an edge in some mirror situations, but I do not think it will remain in the top 5 as we get mote experience with it. I guess time will tell.
And when is hamlet a power unto itself?
I think the only three 2s which fit this category are chapel, fool's gold, and courtyard.

Embargo can change the game it's in like no other card.  Lighthouse as well.  Crossroads as well.  Hamlet and squire are always villages, and often worse than regular Village.

To what extent a card can 'change the game' is only one aspect of what makes it a good card.  I don't think you will find anybody who will argue that Squire, on the right board, is better than Fools Gold, on the right board.  The difference is that on the wrong board, Squire is still a reasonable card, whereas Fools Gold is regularly irrelevant.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2013, 02:23:01 am »
+1

Depends on your definition of reasonable. FG is good in BM and good in engines. It's kind of bad in slogs (though helpful in Sea Hag games and probably Young Witch games too). It's worse when there are more players. Squire just looks really average; it's a poor village and it's not that great of a Silver gainer either. Of course it probably has its great combos, but I'm just not convinced that it has the same level of power as FG.

And when is hamlet a power unto itself?

When it's the only village on a board that strongly indicates engines? I'm not sure what your rhetorical question is implying. Is it that villages can't be powerful because they exist to support other, stronger cards? Obviously that's what they do; you can't expect them to be any stronger than that.

I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:30:46 am by dondon151 »
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2013, 07:35:18 am »
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Native village is way too low.
Fool's gold, hamlet, and crossroads and pawn are too high.

I mean, why does anybody like hamlet anyway? It's like worker's village, but you have to discard 2 cards.

Well, yes, Horse Traders is like Gold, but you have to discard 2 cards. And it's 2$ cheaper than gold. Spot a pattern?

(Horse Traders is like terminal Gold, but it gets you an extra card from time to time, which for the sake of argument I'll have it even out the action it eats.)
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 07:38:07 am »
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I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.

I would like to add: The discard hurts in engines less than in BM games, as more often than not you draw the occasional wrench which you have no trouble discarding.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 08:02:53 am »
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Depends on your definition of reasonable. FG is good in BM and good in engines. It's kind of bad in slogs (though helpful in Sea Hag games and probably Young Witch games too). It's worse when there are more players. Squire just looks really average; it's a poor village and it's not that great of a Silver gainer either. Of course it probably has its great combos, but I'm just not convinced that it has the same level of power as FG.

And when is hamlet a power unto itself?

When it's the only village on a board that strongly indicates engines? I'm not sure what your rhetorical question is implying. Is it that villages can't be powerful because they exist to support other, stronger cards? Obviously that's what they do; you can't expect them to be any stronger than that.

I mean, there are a number of reasons why Hamlet is great. It's one of the best support cards for draw up to X and Menagerie engines. It can give +buy. It doesn't necessarily deplete a card from your hand if you don't want it to (e.g., you have enough actions and buys already). It self-synergizes in an odd way because it gives +buy and the card itself is so cheap, so you can get the +actions into your engine faster with Hamlet than with other villages. I still personally think it's a tad overrated, but there's no doubt that it plays a crucial role in many decks that most of the other $2 cards do not.
You're reading too much into what I am saying; all I am saying is that it is not a power card to itself - it needs other things to support (incidentally, more than other villages, but that is beside the point, and it does only cost 2). Those three cards, basically by themselves, can create very strong decks. Of course that doesn't mean that they are stronger in general - engines can be very powerful, and they need many parts in order to work.

Or to put it another way, it's a support card. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's weaker than on-their-own cards.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 10:40:34 am »
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squire has a huge problem in that it cannot be a cantrip. So when you don't need it it actively hurts you.

Also I should note obviously, +1 action +$1 is better than +2 actions when you only have one other action in hand... and +$1 +1 buy looks in average way better than +2 buy...

EDIT: hamlet is overated as well that I don't argue.

Squire comes with +$1 always, so it does beat Pawn with those choices.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 11:34:11 am »
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You're reading too much into what I am saying;

Am I? The rest of your post seems to suggest that I read into exactly what you were saying.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 12:04:51 pm »
+7

I'm shocked to see so many people think Hamlet is overrated. I even considered it at #1. There are a few things about Hamlet that make it amazingly powerful:

1. It's a massable 2 that provides its own +buy. Fool's Gold and Native Village need some other source of +buy to make them really useful, while Hamlet has it on its own. Hamlet+4 Coppers+Estate buys 2 more hamlets.

2. The ability to quickly infuse a large number of Hamlets into your deck give reliability to a +Cards/+Actions engine even without strong trashing, or even any trashing. And there's no issue of having too many Hamlets, since at worst you can use the extra ones as cantrips. The fact that it's a village, a source of +buy, and reduces/alleviates the need for trashing means it nearly enables engine strategies all on its own. The only thing it needs is a means of increasing handsize, which is a pretty common thing to find anyway.

3. Even if you're building an engine in another way that doesn't require Hamlet as a village, it's still a non-terminal +buy, which is useful in any engine.

I also don't understand why a "support" card can't be a "power" card. What defines a card as "support" anyway? If you're going Smithy+FG, which card is the "support" card?

To me, it doesn't make sense to say Courtyard can create a very strong deck "by itself". It's just that it has negative needs from the kingdom, rather than positive needs. Courtyard BM is good when there is a lack of attacks and extra VP cards in the kingdom, since then it can just speed through to half the points. But this is at least a strong a demand on the kingdom as needing it to contain a handsize-increasing card. So even though the only other cards you need in your deck are treasures, you still have other demands on the kingdom.

In kingdoms where it shows up, Hamlet is very often a key card (whether or not you want to call it a "power" card is up to arbitrary definition of "power", but it's a critical piece to the strongest strategy), and almost always at least a useful card. You can't really say the same for any of the other $2 cards.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 12:24:28 pm »
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Thank you, HME, for less concisely and more eloquently re-stating what I said :)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 02:01:33 pm »
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My point only was that Hamlet is a support card.
My point is NOT that support cards cannot be power cards. Support cards CAN be power cards.
Hamlet is both a support and a powerful card.

Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 04:56:20 pm »
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I'm shocked to see so many people think Hamlet is overrated. I even considered it at #1. There are a few things about Hamlet that make it amazingly powerful:

1. It's a massable 2 that provides its own +buy. Fool's Gold and Native Village need some other source of +buy to make them really useful, while Hamlet has it on its own. Hamlet+4 Coppers+Estate buys 2 more hamlets.

2. The ability to quickly infuse a large number of Hamlets into your deck give reliability to a +Cards/+Actions engine even without strong trashing, or even any trashing. And there's no issue of having too many Hamlets, since at worst you can use the extra ones as cantrips. The fact that it's a village, a source of +buy, and reduces/alleviates the need for trashing means it nearly enables engine strategies all on its own. The only thing it needs is a means of increasing handsize, which is a pretty common thing to find anyway.

3. Even if you're building an engine in another way that doesn't require Hamlet as a village, it's still a non-terminal +buy, which is useful in any engine.

I also don't understand why a "support" card can't be a "power" card. What defines a card as "support" anyway? If you're going Smithy+FG, which card is the "support" card?

To me, it doesn't make sense to say Courtyard can create a very strong deck "by itself". It's just that it has negative needs from the kingdom, rather than positive needs. Courtyard BM is good when there is a lack of attacks and extra VP cards in the kingdom, since then it can just speed through to half the points. But this is at least a strong a demand on the kingdom as needing it to contain a handsize-increasing card. So even though the only other cards you need in your deck are treasures, you still have other demands on the kingdom.

In kingdoms where it shows up, Hamlet is very often a key card (whether or not you want to call it a "power" card is up to arbitrary definition of "power", but it's a critical piece to the strongest strategy), and almost always at least a useful card. You can't really say the same for any of the other $2 cards.

Hamlet can be good, yes.  But it is extremely reliant on a +3 card, and even that is really tough as playing hamlet as a village plus a +3 card is still only the same as playing a Lab (albeit with a touch more cycling).  So, yes it's good with Torturer.  And other cards.

The fact of the matter is in many, many, many games, Hamlet could be one of a number of other villages and it wouldn't change it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 05:20:45 pm »
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You're totally missing that it can give +buy as well as +action. That's really huge for an engine. Like, if hamlet just had the discard for action option it'd be, like, Native Village level.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 06:47:53 pm »
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I didn't put in a list this time, since I've been busy, trying to wean myself off online Dominion, and didn't think I'd be fairly able to evaluate the Dark Ages cards since I haven't played them except for 2 IRL games once.

But this looks reasonably solid.  Poor House and Pawn feel like they're probably low, and both Fool's Gold and Haven are a smidge high for sure.  But there isn't anything else that stands out- you can rejigger the order below Beggar/Cellar, but they're all mediocre and none are truly awful, so who cares?

I love the idea of Poor House because I love treasureless decks, so my judgment may not be trustworthy there, and as for Pawn it gets back to flexibility, and that ever-so-crucial +Buy when you need it.  Haven is just not often that useful even when you buy it, and while Fool's Gold can be powerful more than I originally thought, it is still too fragile too often.  Eh, maybe it's still #5, but Attack games are frequent enough that those two need to be swapped at a minimum- with even mediocre attacks, Lighthouse vaults past FG for sure.  I think Haven might actually be the most misranked card here, actually.

Glad and a little surprised to see Hamlet > Courtyard still. I agree with HME's reasoning.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2013, 10:30:37 am »
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I like Hamlet over Courtyard, especially now that dark ages is out (every new set that isn't base, intrigue, or maybe hinterlands skews things towards engines).

I sorta feel like Fool's Gold should be above Courtyard since Courtyard is a Big Money card and Fool's Gold often outplays Big Money on its own, usually requiring an engine to answer it. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 2/2 posted)
« Reply #121 on: January 08, 2013, 02:37:49 pm »
+1

The fact of the matter is in many, many, many games, Hamlet could be one of a number of other villages and it wouldn't change it.

Surely any card that, in it's bad games, emulates other useful cards that cost more makes it great on it's own doesn't it?
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