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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards  (Read 65303 times)

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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 08:25:04 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2013, 08:54:10 am »
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I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...

Well, if Vagrant would do what measly Adventurer does, it would be vastly overpowered.

If it competes with a decidedly average card costing $1 more, it can't be total crap. I think it's correctly placed above Pearl Diver, as other than its submarine cousin it doesn't get weaker when played multiple times.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2013, 09:16:10 am »
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Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

Well, if you recognise you're overvaluing it, then maybe you recognise why it probably isn't that hot. One major issue is you can't cycle much when you're near the bottom of your deck - because throwing a bunch of bad cards back into your discard pile to get shuffled straight back in isn't really helpful. Another is, how valuable is cycling, really? Early on it's pretty hot, you only have a few good cards and you want to play them repeatedly. Late game, it's detrimental, and midgame, it's considerably less useful in general. Then we look at how much Cellar actually helps your current hand. With junkers, it can be great, getting rid of a bunch of bad cards at once, except, well, you probably still draw some bad cards, although you're likely net up by a fair bit. Without them, even in good scenarios it's averaging less than a silver's worth in money type decks (and early/late, slightly less probably), so not great there. In Engines it can be good for lining your components up, or sifting lots of the junk you've started drawing (something like Village, KC-Smithy then Cellar is awesome for getting you a hand with good cards).

Overall Cellar really doesn't shine often, and rarely is it worth a lot in your deck. The cycling in particular isn't that valuable.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2013, 09:21:39 am »
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I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?
But in the kingdoms you describe it's usually better to have some money providing card like Silver than a Wishing Well or even a Vagrant. The chances of this finding the type of card it's looking for just isn't ever going to be very high, maybe in a alt-vp rush or slog, but again money is more important in those games than this small cycling effect. I'd rather buy a Duchess than a Vagrant in those games.

And when you often miss like that it's just a bad card doing nothing. The fact that it combos with one other card, Mystic, doesn't add much for me.

Now don't get me wrong, I will most likely buy it whenever I have $2 and an extra buy, because, like Pearl Diver, it rarely hurts to have it in your deck. But that just isn't going to be the case that often. I don't think I'll get it often with $3 or $4 whereas the power $2's if you can call them that I will most definitely sometimes get with $3 or even $4.

Herbalist can provide a critical +Buy and Moat deserves some more attention because not all Dominion games are 2 player.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2013, 09:54:25 am »
+2

Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

Except what you just described is SIFTING, not CYCLING. Sifting gets you better cards into hand now. That's the main purpose of Cellar and Warehouse, but they also cycle quite a bit. Cycling is getting through your deck more quickly. Anything that draws cards cycles. Chancellor is the king of cycling. And it sounds like you're overrating the value of sifting as well. Warehouse is really good, because it suddenly lets you choose the best 4 of 7 cards for your turn instead of 5 of 5, and usually those best 4 are considerably better than the original 5. Cellar, well, it lets you sift any cards from your hand that are worse than the average on your deck (roughly). Not great. It's good when you have big handsizes, but the real issue there is, you have to be careful with your deck size, because it's easy to discard a bunch of poor cards and then trigger a reshuffle, leaving a bunch of dead cards on deck. So that hugely limits it's effectiveness. That's definitely a situation where Cellar is at it's best though.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2013, 10:02:19 am »
+1

Cellar is also pretty decent in engine games where you have a couple key cards that you want to get together to get the chain going.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2013, 10:02:31 am »
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Cycling is GREAT. Especially when you have slow trashing, like remodel, or anything else that leads to a large differential of the cards in your deck. Are you really arguing that warehouse is bad? All it does is cycle.

Now, cellar is worse than warehouse by a fair bit, because of the order. That said, for me, a cellar is a welcome addition any time I am increasing my handsize, (usually an engine), and especially good when I just want to put together a combo. Cellar in double tac is AMAZING. So yeah, I don't know if its underrated, but its definitely not overrated.

Yeah, I wouldn't put it any lower than it is. And you could probably argue it up to #10 or #9 maybe based on what you say, but the number of situations where it shines are limited enough that it's not going to be better than that. It's very good when you have low/no trashing draw engines and that's about it. It's about useless in big money or with good trashing. It's also pretty good with draw up to engines since the reduced handsize doesn't hurt you. But considering the other cards in the top 10, it's hard to justify displacing any of those.
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2013, 11:07:41 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well.

So if the kingdom is just right it will be as good as a decidedly average card?  That's not exactly a great advert...

Well, if Vagrant would do what measly Adventurer does, it would be vastly overpowered.

If it competes with a decidedly average card costing $1 more, it can't be total crap. I think it's correctly placed above Pearl Diver, as other than its submarine cousin it doesn't get weaker when played multiple times.

I think it's correctly placed.  Like a lot of the other cards down the bottom there it can shine in the right kingdom (heck, Scout can shine in the right Kingdom).   It's better than SC, PD and probably Herbalist.  Moat is more debatable and probably comes down to whether you are talking about two-player or multiplayer.  I can't really rank it above anything else though.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2013, 12:09:43 pm »
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It's good when you have big handsizes, but the real issue there is, you have to be careful with your deck size, because it's easy to discard a bunch of poor cards and then trigger a reshuffle, leaving a bunch of dead cards on deck. So that hugely limits it's effectiveness. That's definitely a situation where Cellar is at it's best though.

You just have to be careful, sometimes you have to play cellar for less, or not play your draw card. I kind of like having to ask: are a few dead cards on top of my deck worth an extra +$X? That comes up with lots of cards. I think that makes cellar a tricky card sometimes, but not a worse card.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2013, 12:21:28 pm »
+1


Yeah, I wouldn't put it any lower than it is. And you could probably argue it up to #10 or #9 maybe based on what you say, but the number of situations where it shines are limited enough that it's not going to be better than that. It's very good when you have low/no trashing draw engines and that's about it. It's about useless in big money or with good trashing. It's also pretty good with draw up to engines since the reduced handsize doesn't hurt you. But considering the other cards in the top 10, it's hard to justify displacing any of those.

I'd put cellar over poorhouse and *maybe* embargo.

Poorhouse in my experience is great when its great, but that just comes up too rarely. You need a lot: buys, trashing, lots of extra actions, and ideally some draw. It's maybe better than cellar when its good, but I find cellar is good more often.

Embargo similarly has shining moments, but so often is just bad. Even at $2, I don't always buy it if I have a few other terminals. I love embargo, as it allows some brilliant tactics at times. But its also useless a lot of the time. There is also how do you definite power: if embargo keeps both players from ever buying a potion card, but neither player ever buys an embargo, was it powerful or not?
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2013, 12:28:01 pm »
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I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
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Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:40 pm »
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Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2013, 07:39:22 pm »
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Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

Patience. I am sure Qvist is a busy person.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2013, 08:56:51 pm »
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And I'm sure with as much production is going into the videos, they take a good bit of effort to put together.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2013, 09:40:00 pm »
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I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2013, 09:43:20 pm »
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I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....

Vault?  That card from DA (Storehouse? Storage house?)  A lot of Oases?  Uh... KC-KC-Rabble?  Uhhhh.... Draw + Forge?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2013, 09:49:40 pm »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2013, 10:32:41 pm »
+1

Cellar has two advantages over other sifters. 1) It's cheaper, 2) Its sifting isn't limited in the conventional way that other sifters are limited. You can sift 40 cards with Cellar, if you have the hand size for it (unlike, say, Inn, which is always giving you 2 cards and then asking you to recycle 2 cards you don't want).

The second thing is very seldom important. It's not never important (Tactician! Scrying Pool! Edge cases!).

The first thing is nice, but trashing is usually better than weak sifting anyway, and sifting with benefits is usually more worthwhile than cheap sifting.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2013, 10:40:17 pm »
+1

A standard village-smithy-like engine with either no trashing or limited trashing can have very good use for a cellar. It's not that much of an edge case I think.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2013, 05:20:23 am »
0

At some point in this topic, we might realize we're talking about $1 and $2 cards so we can't expect miracles for them. It's fun to see people defending some $2's like they're the holy grail of Dominion. ;D

Well, we haven't gotten to the usual #1 Chapel yet. I wonder where Chapel would end up in a mixed ranking.
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def

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2013, 07:39:08 am »
0

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

Yeah, and all of these cards also cost only 2$!
Wait...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2013, 09:41:46 am »
+1

I think Embargo is clearly better than Cellar. First of all, it has a much larger strategic impact when it does matter. Second of all, if you hit $2, you can just pick it up for the one-time cash bonus. It doesn't stick around so you don't have to worry as much about collision (well you do, but just once).

Cellar is nice if you have a bunch of junk to get through, but Warehouse and Crossroads and half a dozen other cards can do that better.
Warehouse and Crossroads and....
Cartographer, Embassy, Sage, Inn, Stables, Ironmonger, Golem, Oasis, Vault, Farming Village, Vagrant, Scout ( ;) )

Okay, this is probably a bit of an overstatement of things, as cellar is often better than many of these (as well as warehouse and crossroads, in a non-negligible number of scenarios). But I don't think his statement is crazy.

Yeah, and all of these cards also cost only 2$!
Wait...
I didn't realize that this was a limitation - warehouse doesn't cost 2 either. I mean, I don't think anybody's going to argue that cellar isn't a top-5 sifter among 2-costs, but I mean, really, is that saying all that much? I think the point people are trying to make earlier, too, is that very often you end up having to pay more than $2 for these cards, and then it is a totally fair comparison.
Certainly, cellar is good in the right kind of deck. Like everything else.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2013, 09:50:35 am »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

I wanted to post it yesterday, but I'm a little bit ill since Wednesday. I try to post it today.

brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2013, 10:48:45 am »
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Vagrant seems very underrated to me.
... but I admit there is a strong competition between the $2 now.
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Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2013, 10:54:47 am »
0

Anyone know when we can be expecting part 2?

I wanted to post it yesterday, but I'm a little bit ill since Wednesday. I try to post it today.

No rush. I hope you feel better!

warrior297
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