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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards  (Read 65298 times)

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Tdog

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 10:44:58 pm »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.

Well the copper gaining aspect isn't great, it's terrible for engines, meh for big money but great for slogs. The silver aspect is kind of situational. You need to have it in hand when the attack is played, and then it is taking up space in your hand. The silvers isn't great for engines too, which attack cards are often played in engine sets.
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Tdog

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 10:50:01 pm »
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Another point about the 2 cards is they just can't be "eh, I have 2 I'll pick one up"; they have to be a focal point of your deck to be considered great. Cards like cellar and vagrant fit into the average category, you'll never not pick it up at 2 but you're not excited about it.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 11:48:56 pm »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.

Well the copper gaining aspect isn't great, it's terrible for engines, meh for big money but great for slogs. The silver aspect is kind of situational. You need to have it in hand when the attack is played, and then it is taking up space in your hand. The silvers isn't great for engines too, which attack cards are often played in engine sets.

He was talking about Vagrant. Not Beggar.
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sparky5856

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 12:34:00 am »
+1

I think I put Cellar at like #3 or #4. It pains my heart to see it so low.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 12:34:55 am »
+5

I think I put Cellar at like #3 or #4. It pains my heart to see it so low.

It pains my heart that someone put it so high...
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sparky5856

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 01:26:16 am »
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What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 01:35:57 am »
+2

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

I don't know what you ranked Chancellor, but I can still say with confidence that you shouldn't have ranked it higher.
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sparky5856

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 02:07:52 am »
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Somewhere in the bottom 25% iirc. I would have moved it probably just a few spots higher. ...That's still too much isn't it >_<

I think my list is better this time around overall, I ranked Scheme #2 last time so my list this time HAS to be better.

Also, I thought Poor House would rank higher than it did.
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 02:15:47 am »
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This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper.  So really you are often looking not at how 'good' it is but how 'unbad' it is.    Duchess, Herbalist, Beggar and SC can provide small utility, but other times can flat-out hurt your deck.  Other cards don't hurt as such, but do very close to nothing, such as Pearl Diver and Vagrant.  There are cards that do both, never really hurt your deck and also provide some utility, such as Pawn, Hamlet, Lighthouse and Crossroads and are by definition better than either of the above.  While Pawn is the worst of these cards, I think it still deserves to be in the top half, purely based on the fact it is something to buy with $2 that is never bad and can sometimes shine.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 02:59:10 am »
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This looks pretty good. That said, I am going to join in with the Pawn haters. It should be here and Embargo should be higher. Pawn I think gets overrated because it does a lot of things, even though it does none of those things very well.

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper.  So really you are often looking not at how 'good' it is but how 'unbad' it is.    Duchess, Herbalist, Beggar and SC can provide small utility, but other times can flat-out hurt your deck.  Other cards don't hurt as such, but do very close to nothing, such as Pearl Diver and Vagrant.  There are cards that do both, never really hurt your deck and also provide some utility, such as Pawn, Hamlet, Lighthouse and Crossroads and are by definition better than either of the above.  While Pawn is the worst of these cards, I think it still deserves to be in the top half, purely based on the fact it is something to buy with $2 that is never bad and can sometimes shine.

The thing is that Pawn is often Copper +. If you use it for + Card + Action, then yah, it isn't hurting your deck, but it is doing nothing as well. Also, if you have a terminal draw like Witch, you chanc drawing it dead. But, most of all, if you are using Pawn correctly, almost always it is + Coin + Action (which is the same as copper or + Copper + Buy (the best use for it), or you use it for + Coin + Card which is okay but not great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 07:54:29 am »
0

What can I say, I overvalue deck-cycling. I ranked a lot of similar cards high (probably should have ranked Chancellor higher that I did now that I think about it).

Am I crazy? Probably.

Well, if you recognise you're overvaluing it, then maybe you recognise why it probably isn't that hot. One major issue is you can't cycle much when you're near the bottom of your deck - because throwing a bunch of bad cards back into your discard pile to get shuffled straight back in isn't really helpful. Another is, how valuable is cycling, really? Early on it's pretty hot, you only have a few good cards and you want to play them repeatedly. Late game, it's detrimental, and midgame, it's considerably less useful in general. Then we look at how much Cellar actually helps your current hand. With junkers, it can be great, getting rid of a bunch of bad cards at once, except, well, you probably still draw some bad cards, although you're likely net up by a fair bit. Without them, even in good scenarios it's averaging less than a silver's worth in money type decks (and early/late, slightly less probably), so not great there. In Engines it can be good for lining your components up, or sifting lots of the junk you've started drawing (something like Village, KC-Smithy then Cellar is awesome for getting you a hand with good cards).

Overall Cellar really doesn't shine often, and rarely is it worth a lot in your deck. The cycling in particular isn't that valuable.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 08:06:24 am »
0

Pawn enhances a lot of different deck types, and hurts in very few (blocking a slot for a useful reaction card). EDIT: and as Davio correctly points out below, blurring your knowledge about the next card when facing a hand attack.

Minion/Library types of decks have already been addressed, Double Tactician decks are to be mentioned in this context. Engines do not crave for pawns, but have some fondness for them when they have actions to spare or when its the only source of +buy. Alternate VP and heavy greening? Heck, those decks love copper, so how can a pawn hurt, and you are not likely to draw actions dead with +card + action, and have I mentioned the extra buy that gets you another copper, plus being the obvious target for a three-pile finish?

Pawn is very rarely a card that I buy when I have $3 to spare. But I rarely buy nothing at all with $2 when pawn is on the board.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:43:42 am by ipofanes »
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Schneau

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 08:06:35 am »
+2

Qvist - you should reserve the second (and third and fourth if necessary) posts of these threads, and then just edit them to put in the later rankings, so that the lists are all together!
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 08:12:34 am »
0

Reading what some of these DA cards do was pretty cool, and while I admit this is probably not at all the right thread for it, Vagrant seems totally sweet to me, and I don't see why it's ranked so low.
Well, Vagrant is similar to Pearl Diver in that you'll buy it when you have nothing else to buy and only have $2 to spend. Sure, it combos with the usual cantrip lovers like Vineyards, King's Court and what have you. More often than not it won't hit and then it's pretty useless.

In fact, along with Pearl Diver it can actually be a bad buy in games with discard attacks as you'd rather know what the card "beneath" Vagrant would be instead of playing a guessing game in keeping it after being Militia'd.
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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 08:53:46 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 09:13:17 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.
Well, it's highly subjective of course.

Also, it's not a weighted vote (right?). There are more voters below lvl 40 than there are 40+ voters. So you would expect a lot of cards to be misjudged. And then there's Dark Ages, whose cards are highly likely to be misjudged as well.

Besides all this, it's hard to judge cards, because what do you do when one card is greatly overpowered in 10% of kingdoms (useless in the others) and another is useful, but not spectacular in 50% of them?

It's also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you think a card is bad, you will likely buy it less, and you will not get more proficient with that card, making you judge it worse than it actually is. I know I have this problem myself with some cards.

All in all this makes for not so precise lists and cards in weird places.

So you shouldn't take it too seriously. I would say only the top cards are in the right places as these are cards that are often bought and used. The uncertainty grows phenomenally as you go down the list.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 09:35:46 am »
0

It is a weighted list. Better players by Isotropic rank are given more weighting than worse players. I can't remember if Qvist said the formula he used, although each player's weight being level+10 comes to mind for some reason.

I think Secret Chamber has it's places and it's combos, but man, they're so rare, it's worth than nothing probably 80% of the time, and even most of its combos aren't that strong I don't think. Even if it did have to move up, I doubt it'd be by much.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, DG, you're a better player than I am after all.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 10:02:55 am »
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I like to look at Pawn as a Copper I can Cellar away for something else if I don't want a Copper. Plus, I can squeeze a buy out of it if I don't need the money! Plus, the other 3 modes!
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 10:05:39 am »
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I like to look at Pawn as a Copper I can Cellar away for something else if I don't want a Copper. Plus, I can squeeze a buy out of it if I don't need the money! Plus, the other 3 modes!
+1 Card, +$1 is often a Silver! :D
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shraeye

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 10:14:41 am »
0

The list seems fine except Beggar which is highly underrated at the moment. I don't remember where I ranked it, but I believe it was likely in the top 10. Beggar is the ultimate alternate VP card and helps other strategies as well. Also, it's reaction part is pretty decent.
I would suspect that the people who ranked Beggar in the bottom 5 haven't played a lot of dark ages yet (or maybe just not Dark Ages only?).  I think it's definitely deserving of top 10.  The reaction is great against Knights/Pillage/Rogue, gaining Copper like that can be very useful at times.  It's not something I'm going to buy early and play at every opportunity, but it's definitely a card that I consider for a bit when deciding on my strategy.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2013, 10:36:22 am »
0

Most of the time you buy a $2 when you are doing so because you only have $2 to spend (or $2 left over when you have multiple buys) or you are Remodelling a Copper. 

I disagree. You really don't have exactly $2 all that often. The $2 cards have to have something that makes them worth buying for $3-4, and they (almost) all do, in some situations. It's fairly rare for Duchess or Pearl Diver, but very common for the better $2 cards.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2013, 11:32:28 am »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2013, 02:56:14 pm »
0

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

For the record, I put Pearl Diver last. Value-wise it does very little unless KC is in the kingdom. Being able to put your bottom card of your deck isn't all that hot, especially when it is something like a copper or estate. I think people rank Pearl Diver higher because it's non-terminal. But, really, the card is useless most of the time. And, yes, I do buy it often because it's non-terminal, but that doesn't take away that it is usually a useless card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2013, 03:21:57 pm »
+1

I'm guessing that the secret chamber at the bottom of the list says more about the players ranking the cards than the card itself. Not many people seem to play it well. Beggar seems quite strong too, particularly in multiplayer, and Vagrant is considerably stronger than pearl diver.

Vagrant, in a messy kingdom with looting and sans trashing, will be in the same league as Wishing Well. Also, it harmonises with Mystic.

As an aside, if you find a crappy card at the botton of the deck, and you have Mystic in hand, will you move the card to the top?

Second question is about Pearl Diver, yeah?  It depends on a lot -- your current hand, the state of the game, what else is in your deck.

Do you desperately need to hit $8 this turn?  To hit $8, do you need to successfully draw Silver with your Mystic?  Then leave that Estate on the bottom and hope you get lucky.

Do you already have enough money to buy what you want?  Then maybe it's worth it to you to move the Estate up and clear it away with your Mystic, to improve future hands.

Do you have a Rebuild in your deck that you haven't drawn yet?  Maybe it's best to leave that Duchy down there at the bottom, so that you won't accidentally cause Rebuild to miss the reshuffle when you play it in the next turn or two.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $1-$2 cards (Part 1/2)
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 03:41:44 am »
0

Qvist - you should reserve the second (and third and fourth if necessary) posts of these threads, and then just edit them to put in the later rankings, so that the lists are all together!
Yeah, I wanted to, but forgot. Thanks for the heads up.

It is a weighted list. Better players by Isotropic rank are given more weighting than worse players. I can't remember if Qvist said the formula he used, although each player's weight being level+10 comes to mind for some reason.

I think Secret Chamber has it's places and it's combos, but man, they're so rare, it's worth than nothing probably 80% of the time, and even most of its combos aren't that strong I don't think. Even if it did have to move up, I doubt it'd be by much.

Go ahead and prove me wrong, DG, you're a better player than I am after all.

Correct, it's weighted. And it's level+5.
But in the bottom 10 of the $1-$2 cards it wouldn't have changed anything if it was unweighted. The bottom ranks would have been the same.
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