Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: People still won't use the veto mode  (Read 20432 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gf1024

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
People still won't use the veto mode
« on: September 12, 2011, 04:22:54 pm »
0

Well, at least in my experience. Oh hi I'm new in this forum btw. Anyway, I'm one of the unlucky few that loves Possession, and every bloody time it comes up the other guy declines it. Anyone else feeling the same?
Logged

Mean Mr Mustard

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
  • First to 5000 Isotropic wins
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 05:06:08 pm »
0

I am almost exclusively using the veto mode, partly because it is shiny and new and also because I like the way you can shape the board.  It adds some more strategy depth to a game already rich with it.

I am moving between a few different strats for choosing which card to veto.  Sometimes I will remove the card with the most variance, like Familiar or Treasure Map.  I also like to remove the attack card that will completely ruin my assumed strategy, or the key card of an opposing strategy if I feel like I can size up the nuances better.  If I am feeling feisty, I will just knock out the weakest card, or the strongest when I feel like I can make better use of an ugly board than my opponent.

My favorite engine card, Mean Mr Minion, seems to be hated, having taken the brunt of veto mode from my opponents.  I haven't played a Possession game in awhile either.
Logged
Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9413
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 05:11:26 pm »
0

Well, at least in my experience. Oh hi I'm new in this forum btw. Anyway, I'm one of the unlucky few that loves Possession, and every bloody time it comes up the other guy declines it. Anyone else feeling the same?

I suspect your characterization of "unlucky few" is spot-on.  I'm one of those who will decline it whether in veto mode or not (though I don't use veto mode for other reasons).  It has interesting strategy that can go with it, but its high variance really, IMO, makes it less fun.  I dare say it's the highest-variance card in the system.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 05:15:08 pm »
0

Well, at least in my experience. Oh hi I'm new in this forum btw. Anyway, I'm one of the unlucky few that loves Possession, and every bloody time it comes up the other guy declines it. Anyone else feeling the same?

I suspect your characterization of "unlucky few" is spot-on.  I'm one of those who will decline it whether in veto mode or not (though I don't use veto mode for other reasons).  It has interesting strategy that can go with it, but its high variance really, IMO, makes it less fun.  I dare say it's the highest-variance card in the system.

I daresay it's one of the lowest-variance cards in the system.
Swindler may well be the highest variance.

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 05:32:46 pm »
0

Well, at least in my experience. Oh hi I'm new in this forum btw. Anyway, I'm one of the unlucky few that loves Possession, and every bloody time it comes up the other guy declines it. Anyone else feeling the same?

I suspect your characterization of "unlucky few" is spot-on.  I'm one of those who will decline it whether in veto mode or not (though I don't use veto mode for other reasons).  It has interesting strategy that can go with it, but its high variance really, IMO, makes it less fun.  I dare say it's the highest-variance card in the system.

I daresay it's one of the lowest-variance cards in the system.

I daresay its variance is directly tied to the variance of your opponent's deck.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 05:34:34 pm »
0

I think the simple solution would be decline veto matches and turn off veto with the auto-match.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 06:01:31 pm »
0

Veto strategy is a interesting and separate added dimension, but effectively eliminating certain cards from consideration reduces the in-game strategy space by I think an even larger amount.

I started up an alt to try out veto mode, and I'm having some fun with it. I think given enough time my alt would substantially outrank my main account, since I can mostly eliminate ratings-poison losses to low-rank players caused by things like Treasure Map, Mountebank, and Swindler variance, and when no high-variance cards are in evidence I can veto things I'm bad at playing. Contrary to the title of the thread (which seems to have nothing to do with the actual contents?) I have no difficulty finding veto-mode opponents via automatch.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 06:03:43 pm by guided »
Logged

rrenaud

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Uncivilized Barbarian of Statistics
  • Respect: +1197
    • View Profile
    • CouncilRoom
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 06:09:21 pm »
0

TL:DR; Really strong cards often crowd out merely good ones, and eliminating that crowding out could increase the diversity of viable strategies.

If you use the veto mode to eliminate what you think of as the dominate strategy in each set, it could end up increasing in strategy space.  Consider measuring 'strategy space' by something like entropy of winners deck composition at the end of the game.

If minion tends to dominate sets when its present, but it's often knocked out, then the percentage of times that it is the dominate strategy might drop from say 4% (== 2/3 of the times it shows up randomly) to 2% (because it gets rejected half the time), which puts it a lot closer to the max entropy rate of something like 1/~140.

Logged

gf1024

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 05:32:08 am »
0

I think the simple solution would be decline veto matches and turn off veto with the auto-match.
That's the point. This is what I'm doing and people still reject playing with Possession.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 06:57:49 am »
0

People have always rejected playing with Possession and they always will until we get a "Play match with these opponents with a board which is unknown until we have all agreed to play the game" function.

As for veto mode, it has changed absolutely nothing about the way I look for matches. Point tracker -> Prohibit, opponent -> registered, 2 players. I end up playing about 50-50 veto mode or not. I'm not really fussed either way.
Logged

rspeer

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +877
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 12:04:28 pm »
0


I daresay it's one of the lowest-variance cards in the system.

I daresay its variance is directly tied to the variance of your opponent's deck.

You could hedge about a lot of cards like that, but independent of that, Possession is probably the card with the largest difference between playing well and playing poorly. It's got luck to it, sure, but it has considerably more skill involved in playing it, defending against it, and the decision of whether to go for it at all. I rather like it for that reason.

Not that I play it well; my effectiveness with it is -0.9. I probably at least play it better than people who refuse it every time. But think about that. It's my favorite card and I have not yet gotten far enough into its strategy to beat people at my level with it!

So would anyone be interested in a block of time where we put "up for Possession games" in our Isotropic status and actively try to start these games?
Logged

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 12:07:22 pm »
0

Definitely. I haven't the faintest idea of what to do with it; I've lost games where I get the first Possession and Possess people more times, or I've won them, and it feels entirely luck-based but that probably means I'm just missing how to play those...
Logged

philosophyguy

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 01:02:12 pm »
0

Maybe this deserves its own thread, but I haven't seen a general purpose discussion of Possession on the site yet (maybe I'm missing it in the laundry list of Possession complaint threads). Would individuals be willing to talk about when to play/not play Possession, deciding when to buy it (and the associated potion), etc.?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 01:13:59 pm »
0

I plan on writing an article on possession soon.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 01:32:51 pm »
0

Possession is a weird one for me: I am incredibly good at recognizing games where Possession is a waste of time, and tailoring my play to counter an opponent's Possession.  But I'm also incredibly bad at games where Possession is the winning strategy- I have an Effect With of -1.43 and and Effect Without of 1.94.

I think it is one of the lower variance cards, but not the lowest: I might give that crown to Horn of Plenty, actually.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 01:46:41 pm »
0

There's an article http://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/, but I haven't found it particularly helpful yet.

...hmm, apparently according to the numbers it's not like I'm particularly *bad* with Possession, I have ever so slightly positive effect with and effect without. That surprises me.
Logged

gf1024

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 01:47:45 pm »
0


I daresay it's one of the lowest-variance cards in the system.

I daresay its variance is directly tied to the variance of your opponent's deck.

You could hedge about a lot of cards like that, but independent of that, Possession is probably the card with the largest difference between playing well and playing poorly. It's got luck to it, sure, but it has considerably more skill involved in playing it, defending against it, and the decision of whether to go for it at all. I rather like it for that reason.

Not that I play it well; my effectiveness with it is -0.9. I probably at least play it better than people who refuse it every time. But think about that. It's my favorite card and I have not yet gotten far enough into its strategy to beat people at my level with it!

So would anyone be interested in a block of time where we put "up for Possession games" in our Isotropic status and actively try to start these games?

Check your PM.
Logged

philosophyguy

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 02:29:04 pm »
0

I'd be interested in some possession gaming in order to get some more practice in.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 02:44:49 pm »
0

Possession is a weird one for me: I am incredibly good at recognizing games where Possession is a waste of time, and tailoring my play to counter an opponent's Possession.  But I'm also incredibly bad at games where Possession is the winning strategy- I have an Effect With of -1.43 and and Effect Without of 1.94.

This really doesn't make much sense, especially in conjunction with "it's one of the lowest variance cards!" If you are indeed very good at recognizing when Possession is important and defending against it, how is it that you'd be bad at playing it when you've correctly identified at as being good? This characterization has basically removed 95% of the thinking behind the card, the rest being how to best Village up and cycle to play lots.

Mostly I'm unconvinced by Effect With and Effect Without type arguments because a) I don't understand exactly what it is that the stat measures, and b) to the extent I think I do, I'd imagine big negative Effect With for strong players is actually a strong sign of variance. (Weaker players should tend to see a big positive Effect with.) As a good example, there was a post some time back about how a lot of the top players had negative Effects With with cards like Mountebank. If you win a lot in the first place and end up with a card that randoms up the game a ton, then your Effect With is probably going to be quite negative with that card.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 02:50:00 pm »
0

Possession is a weird one for me: I am incredibly good at recognizing games where Possession is a waste of time, and tailoring my play to counter an opponent's Possession.  But I'm also incredibly bad at games where Possession is the winning strategy- I have an Effect With of -1.43 and and Effect Without of 1.94.

This really doesn't make much sense, especially in conjunction with "it's one of the lowest variance cards!" If you are indeed very good at recognizing when Possession is important and defending against it, how is it that you'd be bad at playing it when you've correctly identified at as being good? This characterization has basically removed 95% of the thinking behind the card, the rest being how to best Village up and cycle to play lots.

Mostly I'm unconvinced by Effect With and Effect Without type arguments because a) I don't understand exactly what it is that the stat measures, and b) to the extent I think I do, I'd imagine big negative Effect With for strong players is actually a strong sign of variance. (Weaker players should tend to see a big positive Effect with.) As a good example, there was a post some time back about how a lot of the top players had negative Effects With with cards like Mountebank. If you win a lot in the first place and end up with a card that randoms up the game a ton, then your Effect With is probably going to be quite negative with that card.
It's been explained dozens of times, but...
Effect with essentially measures how much better you do with it (compared to how you normally do) than the average player does with it (compared to how THEY normally do). Effect without is the exact same thing except for when you don't gain the card.
So negative effect with on high players is possibly a sign of variance, but you can't discount the possibility that you simply don't play it very well.

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 03:20:41 pm »
0

It's been explained dozens of times, but...
Effect with essentially measures how much better you do with it (compared to how you normally do) than the average player does with it (compared to how THEY normally do). Effect without is the exact same thing except for when you don't gain the card.

That is what I thought. Is that actually a useful model at all of what it hopes to measure? Like I'm somewhat unconvinced that my -1.6 with Chapel and -1.5 with Laboratory really indicate that I'm in the bottom 10% of players in understanding these highly complex cards.

Quote
on high players is possibly a sign of variance, but you can't discount the possibility that you simply don't play it very well.

In the context of a discussion where it was posited that "oh, I'm very good at identifying when that card is significant," it is far more likely that a) that assumption was wrong, or b) that Possession is in fact a high variance card, than c) he is in fact very good at identifying when Possession is important but despite that somehow bad at using it when it actually ends up in his deck. There's just not a plausible failure mechanism for that last stage given the assumption.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2011, 04:04:12 pm »
0

It's been explained dozens of times, but...
Effect with essentially measures how much better you do with it (compared to how you normally do) than the average player does with it (compared to how THEY normally do). Effect without is the exact same thing except for when you don't gain the card.

That is what I thought. Is that actually a useful model at all of what it hopes to measure? Like I'm somewhat unconvinced that my -1.6 with Chapel and -1.5 with Laboratory really indicate that I'm in the bottom 10% of players in understanding these highly complex cards.

Quote
on high players is possibly a sign of variance, but you can't discount the possibility that you simply don't play it very well.

In the context of a discussion where it was posited that "oh, I'm very good at identifying when that card is significant," it is far more likely that a) that assumption was wrong, or b) that Possession is in fact a high variance card, than c) he is in fact very good at identifying when Possession is important but despite that somehow bad at using it when it actually ends up in his deck. There's just not a plausible failure mechanism for that last stage given the assumption.

I didn't say that " I'm very good at identifying when that card is significant", I said that I'm good at identifying when it's a waste of time.  Similar, but also kind of the opposite!

But it is also true that I'm not that good at altering my play style to deal with cases where Possession is strong.  My default assumption when Possession is on the board is to dumb my game down and go for a fast money-ish deck that greens quickly.  (Or perhaps one that relies heavily on attacks and VP chips.)  This is a great thing to to as Possession defense, but not usually a good thing to do when you realize that Possession is good enough that you want one yourself!  Building a deck that can play lots of Possessions, but is also crappy enough that it doesn't give much benefit to opponent's Possessions, is one thing I'm quite horrible at, and is a quite different skill than recognizing when to just lay into, say, the Hoards and Duchies instead.

Many obviously powerful and swingy cards are going to have negative Effect With rates for the reasons you describe: I definitely believe that for, say, Mountebank and Lab (Chapel I actually have a positive Effect With, because I'm usually better at heavy-action than heavy-Treasure decks and that's where Chapel is best).  But there are other reasons for a bad Effect With, and I don't consider myself a good enough player that all my negative Effect With rates are due to variance: some are just cards I've played badly.

tl dr: I think your option C is closest to the truth, in my case.  I also don't think that Possession is quite as low variance as WW does, but he's also a much better player than I am.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 04:29:01 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

rod-

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2011, 04:26:54 pm »
0

I also find that, with the sheer number of cards in dominion, the variance on 'effect with/out' stats is pretty high.  Even when you've reached ~2000 games, you've played only around 120 games with any particular card, and for a great percentage of those 120 games, you didn't even buy that card. 

Put another way, the councilroom sigma on all of my "win rate given X" averages +/- .24.  That's a 12% difference in win rate.  That's the difference between 50% and 62%, or about 10 levels. 
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 05:36:38 pm »
0

I didn't say that " I'm very good at identifying when that card is significant", I said that I'm good at identifying when it's a waste of time.  Similar, but also kind of the opposite!

I don't really see how. If you can identify it reliably as a waste of time, then it would seem failing to do so indicates that it is not a waste of time. If you mean that you merely identify a healthy fraction of the times that it is a waste of time, then yeah, my statement doesn't follow. But that doesn't seem like a natural interpretation of the original sentence.

Re: the variance and Effects With, my larger point is that that is clearly such a major aspect of those stats for some cards that I'm hesitant to use them to make strong conclusions about well somebody plays a particular card at this point.

Lastly, I think all of this discussion about whether Possession is a high-variance card is a bit underdefined. I'm imagining the argument that it is a low-variance card is going to go something like "ignoring it optimally like you often should, you'll prevail substantially more often against worse players who don't know better." That is perhaps a reasonable definition, but I'm not certain it's what most people mean colloquially. There seems to be a difference between defining the variance of a card based on its mere presence vs. its use.
Logged

Epoch

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 421
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Re: People still won't use the veto mode
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 05:44:26 pm »
0

I don't really see how. If you can identify it reliably as a waste of time, then it would seem failing to do so indicates that it is not a waste of time.

There's an excluded middle.  Let's say that the cards "objective" effect, depending on the board, varies from -5 to +5.  Chwhite could theoretically be good at telling when the effect was "objectively" -2 (terrible) or worse, but not be able to tell the difference between when it was "objectively" effect 0 (mediocre) versus effect 5 (outstanding).
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 2.129 seconds with 22 queries.