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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins  (Read 17035 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« on: December 31, 2012, 10:21:15 pm »
+12

2013, a new year began. And a new edition of the "Best Dominion Card Lists" gets published.
(I'm sorry for mistakes with the English language as I'm no native speaker.)

I'm starting with a small list which I can publish quickly to already generate some discussion while you are waiting for the first bigger list.
And as I proceed from $1 to $8* cards, it's obvious to start with $0 cards, right?
And, as you will notice, I changed the values to percent as it will make possible to compare each list position to last year and make it possible for you this year to rate cards even though not having played all different sets.
I have received 39 lists for the Ruins.

SURPRISE: If you don't want to spoil yourself, now also in video format:

The Ruins

#5 Ruined Village (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 4.9% / Median: 0% / Mode: 0% / Standard Deviation: 11.3%
Highest Value(s): 50% (1x), 25% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (33x)

There is no doubt. This is the worst Ruin you can possibly get. Almost everyone voted it last.

This Ruin is the card which is closest to Confusion, a dead card with no effect which DXV wanted to publish originally. This card gives also mostly no benefit and there is mostly no need to play it beside some edge cases e.g. when you want to lower the cost of Peddler, activate a Conspirator, lower the hand size for Watchtower/Library or raise the value of Horn of Plenty. You could also play Throne Room or King's Court on it if you are in desperate need for a village to play other Action cards, but often you just better play Throne Room or King's Court on these Action cards.
#4 Ruined Library (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 43.8% / Median: 50% / Mode: 25% / Standard Deviation: 24.6%
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 75% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (3x)

All other Ruins were really close together. This one is still clearly deserved on #4 with 14 times a value of 25%.

Ruined Libary itself also doesn't give you any benefit. You just only draw the card you would have drawn anyway. And if you have only 1 Action left you could also draw that Action dead. So this is only worth playing if you have a spare Action left. Then you have at least mitigated the bad effect of this Ruin. Of course you could also play Throne Room or King's Court on it to draw multiple cards if you're really desperate.
#3 Survivors (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 61.7% / Median: 50% / Mode: 100% / Standard Deviation: 30.3%
Highest Value(s): 100% (13x) / Lowest Value(s): 25% (10x)

The battle for the least worst Ruin was really close. Survivors is only third despite being the only Ruin not getting once 0%. Even it's mode is 100% with 13 players voted it there.

Survivors is the only not +1 X Ruin. In a hand with one of all 5 Ruins, this is probably the one you want to play as this turn is dead anyway, so you can at least prepare the next one. So, it can be quite handy. Imagine you normally - without this Ruin - would have drawn an Estate, but now you can discard that Estate and maybe even a second one which you normally would have drawn next turn. This means it isn't the worst Ruin to have, but still the benefit is often only marginal. Like with Scout you have to be lucky to draw 2 bad cards you want to discard or have the rare case you put the cards back and have Actions left and the order in which you put the cards back really matters like with Wishing Well. The problem here therefore is that it only helps in really junked decks, but then you're gonna probably lose anyway.
#2 Ruined Market (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 68.5% / Median: 75% / Mode: 100% / Standard Deviation: 30.5%
Highest Value(s): 100% (12x) / Lowest Value(s): 25% (6x), 0% (2x)

Especially the battle for #1 was really close. Ruined Market is only second with 12 times 100%.

Contrary to Survivors which helps most in bad decks, this helps probably most in still relatively good decks. This might even help a lot if you miss your Action card this turn which normally would give you the much needed buy for building up your engine. In the late game you could even use this for Double Estate or Duchy/Estate, especially on a board with otherwise no other +Buys. This might even be a card you want to buy/gain on purpose. I could even imageine open with Ruined Market on a board with Peddler and no other +Buys :). You see the benefit of this Ruin is really board dependant, but having a much needed +Buy from this Ruin could really save you the day.
#1 Abandoned Mine (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.1% / Median: 75% / Mode: 75% / Standard Deviation: 27.2%
Highest Value(s): 100% (13x) / Lowest Value(s): 25% (4x), 0% (1x)

It got 100% and 75% each 13 times what gives Abandoned Mine the win.

Abandoned Mine is in games with Ruins mostly better than Ruined Library as you have a junked deck and don't want to draw your Action cards dead and have a low money average either way. But what makes it better than Survivors or Ruined Market? Money is really important in Ruins games as your struggling your way up to $5 or $6. While Curses don't give you this opportunity you often get to $5 or $6 with Abandoned Mine. But it's still a close call between Ruined Market and Abandoned Mine. And, BTW, this might be now really the only Ruin worth playing Throne Room or King's Court on it.

Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 10:28:26 pm »
0

Cool! Thanks for all your work!
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 11:18:17 pm »
+2

I still feel the Goko level should be taken into account as well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 11:20:51 pm »
0

Just started watching the video, and I know you're German Qvist, but, wow, you sound really German :D.

This list is a little different to mine. I put Ruined Mine 3rd, Survivors second, Ruined Market first. My reasoning was, occasionally Ruined Market can actually be very useful to you, even if usually it's going to be almost useless. But that occasional high utility I think outweighs its normally worse than Ruined Mine utility. With Survivors vs. Ruined Mine... it was kinda a tossup, and I didn't think too hard about it.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 11:22:09 pm »
0

I still feel the Goko level should be taken into account as well.

In general I agree. But I have no idea how significant the Goko level is currently (especially regarding as you can just quit without getting a loss) and I don't know how to normalize those two levels.

Just started watching the video, and I know you're German Qvist, but, wow, you sound really German :D.

Is this a compliment or an insult?  ::) I do my very best to talk without accent, but well, it's impossible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:24:18 pm by Qvist »
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Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 11:26:59 pm »
0

I still feel the Goko level should be taken into account as well.

In general I agree. But I have no idea how significant the Goko level is currently (especially regarding as you can just quit without getting a loss) and I don't know how to normalize those two levels.

Just started watching the video, and I know you're German Qvist, but, wow, you sound really German :D.

Is this a compliment or an insult?  ::) I do my very best to talk without accent, but well, it's impossible.

Do you know when the next big list will be out? And is there any way for me to get my list of rankings back that I did through Survey Monkey?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 11:27:07 pm »
0

Just started watching the video, and I know you're German Qvist, but, wow, you sound really German :D.

Is this a compliment or an insult?  ::) I do my very best to talk without accent, but well, it's impossible.

Neither :). It's just, it's definitely something I noticed, and kinda hadn't expected for whatever reason (I guess I kinda imagine everyone on the internet as being accentless (or having a similar accent to me, which would seem totally mundane/ordinary/unnoticed to myself), and well suddenly hearing your German accent took my by surprise. It's not like it's an issue, so I wouldn't worry about it, the enunciation seems close to perfect.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 11:30:14 pm »
0

Do you know when the next big list will be out? And is there any way for me to get my list of rankings back that I did through Survey Monkey?

Hey, don't rush me.  ::)
This week I'm still in holidays and I try to publish the next parts probably Thursday and Saturday, but maybe it's earlier, maybe later, I can't promise.
Starting from next week, it'll probably ~2 parts each week.

Warrior

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 11:31:55 pm »
0

Do you know when the next big list will be out? And is there any way for me to get my list of rankings back that I did through Survey Monkey?

Hey, don't rush me.  ::)
This week I'm still in holidays and I try to publish the next parts probably Thursday and Saturday, but maybe it's earlier, maybe later, I can't promise.
Starting from next week, it'll probably ~2 parts each week.

Okay thanks.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 12:07:08 am »
0

I think this list is close to what I had. I distincly remember putting Abandoned Mine first, Survivors third, and Ruined Village last. I may have swapped Ruined Market and Ruined Library. I can't remember. But, more often than not, in Ruins games, you never get enough money to really make that +Buy matter. At least, in most Ruins games I've played that has been the case. Now, if Death Cart is out and not Maruder or Cultist, myabe Ruined Market gets better. But, in a junked deck, I just don't think it is that good most of the time.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 12:16:08 am »
0

I didn't order them this way, but honestly the difference is pretty slim (aside from Ruined Village/Library). 
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 05:43:17 am »
0

How to start well 2013 ? Let's talk about the ruins  ;D

And was people's vote who didn't rank DA cards taken into account this time ?
EDIT : I got the answer myself !
  • Just a note: If you didn't rate Dark Ages cards, I also didn't took your Knights and Ruins rating into account.

If I recall correctly I swapped abandoned mine and survivors !
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:50:34 am by ChocophileBenj »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 01:16:59 pm »
0

I think this is the correct ranking, but I'm not 100% on ruined village and library. You know, rl replaces itself only at the cost of you playing some other, surely better terminal. And it's not guaranteed to draw money or something. Even rv, which is just nothing, could be better than dead drawing actions. I think its menagerie/throne room/conspirator/horn of plenty edge cases may just bump it ahead of rl. But maybe not.
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PitzerMike

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2013, 02:32:27 pm »
0

I was one of those who have Survivors on top. The main reason is that from my experience in Ruins games you tend to have a lot of crap in your deck and Survivors almost always helped in the games I've played.
I have Ruined Market at #3 because the +Buy just never seems to come up in a hand where it's actually useful.
Abandoned Mine as #2 because, well it's stlll just a copper and simply doesn't compare to possibly eliminating 2 bad cards from your next hand.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 02:36:47 pm »
+1

I ranked Ruined Market the highest because I think snagging an extra Estate lategame is a lot more valuable on average than a terminal $1 (You're often hitting $7 anyway).  I wish I could pull up my rankings, but it doesn't look like SurveyMonkey allows that.  If there's trashing, it's the one Ruin I might choose to keep a copy of too.  Survivors, as PitzerMike mentioned, can be helpful on occasion (and, yes, is often the best of the five on a variety of boards).  Still, we're sorting garbage here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 06:08:20 pm »
0

I still feel the Goko level should be taken into account as well.

I disagree.  Goko level is poorly defined, based on at most a few hundred games (and that's probably only a very few people), and only tags a small fraction of players (there are very few top-tier players on Goko).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 06:59:40 pm »
0

I dont get these numbers:
Highest Value(s): 50% (1x), 25% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (33x)

What do they mean?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 07:05:01 pm »
+1

I dont get these numbers:
Highest Value(s): 50% (1x), 25% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (33x)

What do they mean?

50%= middle ranked, 0%= lowest ranked, 100%= highest ranked. So here 0% is 5 25% is 4, 50% is 3, 75% is 2 and 100% is 1. Qvist is doing it this way to compare previous rankings, as with more cards you can't just compare the 32 rank of last time to e 32 of this time for instance.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 10:29:27 pm »
0

X% = better than X% of the other cards in same ranking category; so if you rate Survivors as third best Ruins, that's a 50%--better than 2 of the other 4 Ruins.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 11:00:03 pm »
0

I ranked Ruined Market the highest because I think snagging an extra Estate lategame is a lot more valuable on average than a terminal $1 (You're often hitting $7 anyway).  I wish I could pull up my rankings, but it doesn't look like SurveyMonkey allows that.  If there's trashing, it's the one Ruin I might choose to keep a copy of too.  Survivors, as PitzerMike mentioned, can be helpful on occasion (and, yes, is often the best of the five on a variety of boards).  Still, we're sorting garbage here.
What?  If you have 1, 4, or 7$ in hand, you prefer the Abandoned Mine for getting VP.  If you have 2, 3, 5, or 6$ in hand, you don't care.  10$ is where Ruined Market becomes better, but you're saying in Looter games "you're often hitting 7 anyway", which is correct, your income is going to be pretty low..
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 11:09:27 pm »
0

10$ is where Ruined Market becomes better

I disagree, in Ruins games 3-pile endings are very likely. So even Double Estate or Duchy/Estate buys might win you a game.
Also, not every Ruins game is a slog. You still might want to build an engine. But early on with all the additional Ruins in your deck you might not be able to get your +Buy Action card in your hand. In these cases you're thankful if you're able to play a Ruined Market and pick up 2 engine components.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 01:01:40 am »
0

Even rv, which is just nothing, could be better than dead drawing actions.

Ruined Library can be nothing also. If you're worried about drawing actions dead, you could just not play it. But it can also be something.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 02:29:49 pm »
+1

One third of the ruins causing cards is death cart which is a nice engine card and ruined market can help a lot with death cart.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2013, 01:16:40 pm »
0

I strongly disagree on ruined library being the 2nd worst. I think personally it is the 2nd best ruin after abandoned mine. Ruins are supposed to clog your deck with dead cards (very often you'll have other actions cards to play instead of a ruined market or survivors), but ruined library, with some remaining +actions, can replace itself so don't hurt the deck anymore.

I also put survivors higher than ruined market. The +buy of ruined market is so rarely useful...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Ruins
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2013, 02:01:36 pm »
0

While I'm not the best dominion player by any means I would rate ruined market the highest, just because that is the only ruins that one actually ever might consider actually buying, since in a game without +buy but an otherwise strong engine you can actually use ruined market to allow the engine to work, unlike the others.
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