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werothegreat

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Rebuild
« on: December 30, 2012, 12:48:57 am »
+11


Rebuild is a powerful card.  Some powerful cards make games stretch on, almost interminably, like Goons and Mountebank.  Others, like Tournament or Wharf, can make a game go by in a few minutes.  Rebuild is one of the latter.

So what does Rebuild do?  Like Rats (which I wrote my previous article on) and most other Dark Ages cards, the point of the card is not immediately apparent from its wording.  Rebuild essentially upgrades your Victory cards, as long as they are in your deck.  Generally, this means going from Estate to Duchy to Province (and sometimes Colony).  This process, like that of Rats, tends to be very quick, and a player who can get a couple Rebuilds going before the other will have a marked advantage, barring other game-changing cards.

When should I buy Rebuild?  As soon as possible, and you should probably get two.  Since Rebuild gives +1 Action, there's no need to fear terminal collision.  I like to break cards into two groups: those you should get early, and those you can wait to get.  The former group includes Rebuild, along with Mine, Goons, Monument, and most Attack cards - cards whose effect you want as often as possible for as long as possible. 

Okay, I've got a Rebuild (or two) in my deck - now what?  Rebuild's wording allows you to name a card that you don't want to see trashed, and then Rebuild will hunt through your deck for a Victory card that is not that.  In most situations, you'll want to name Province, as you want to upgrade your Estates and Duchies, as doing so will increase your point total.  But, like with the Remodel trick, trashing a Province to gain another Province can be quite effective in emptying the pile if you already have a significant lead - in those cases, simply name Estate, to ensure that your Duchies and Provinces are the ones getting trashed, thus emptying the Province pile.

Remember that you only start (normally) with three Victory cards in your deck - if you Rebuild them fully, you'll only have three Provinces.  Therefore, you need to help your Rebuild out by throwing a couple Duchies (or, if you're having trouble fielding $5, Estates) its way.  Just one or two can help you get the better end of the Province split.

Also note that Rebuild will discard your Actions and Treasures, so don't develop an attachment to them.  Just think of it as express cycling.  In fact, Rebuild's nature means that you won't need as many Treasures.  Most decks are oriented around the need to field $8 (or $11) every turn in order to get Provinces (or Colonies).  You'll be getting Provinces through your Rebuilds, so, like a Duke deck, your deck should be oriented to field $5, so you can pick up Rebuilds and Duchies.

Is there anything else I can do to help my Rebuild?  You can use Rebuild as a supplement to an engine, or you can make Rebuild the centerpiece of your strategy.  For the latter, remember that your two objectives are: 1) Play Rebuild as often as possible, and 2) Throw extra Victory cards into the mix.  So you want to look for cards that will help you do that.  To further objective 1, look for sifting cards, particularly non-terminal ones, such as Cellar and Warehouse.  Sage is moderately useful, but will get caught on Duchies and Provinces too often in the mid/late game.  Rebuild is a great target for Throne Room and King's Court.  But the very best way to play Rebuild as often as possible is to just buy lots of Rebuilds, which is what you should be doing with your $5 hands when the Duchies run out (and they will run out).  For objective 2, look for cards that either specifically gain Victory cards, like Followers or Count, cards that gain cards of any type, like Workshop or Armory, or cheaper cards that field enough coin to procure Duchies, such as Horse Traders.  Cards like Mandarin are too expensive, as you want to focus your $5 buys on Rebuild and then Duchies.  Count, on the other hand, works very well with Rebuild because it has the awesome power to just straight up gain Duchies.  You'll be getting your $5 investment back in spades if you pick up a Count on a Rebuild board.

If you elect to have Rebuild complement your engine, be mindful of the order in which you play your cards.  In general, you'll want to play Rebuild first, as cantrips and drawers will bring your Victory cards into your hand, where you don't want them to be.  Sifters, on the other hand, should be played first, as they will let you discard those Victory cards.  Embassy is the best of both worlds here, but at $5, it's interfering with your Rebuild and Duchy buys.

When should I not go for a Rebuild strategy?  When a more powerful strategy is available, which will be rarely.  An Attack that should give you pause with a Rebuild strategy should be Saboteur, which can undo your Rebuilding, or worse, destroy your Rebuilds, but most players ignore that card often enough for you to not worry too much about it.  While Rebuild is fast, there are some faster strategies out there.  A well-made engine that can buy Provinces outright will outstrip a Rebuilder that has to trash precious Victory points.  Mountebank can fill your deck with enough junk to prevent you from seeing your Rebuilds, and you should never ignore it in favor of getting the early Rebuild.  A competent Goons player can easily outstrip a Rebuilder; while the discard Attack should not concern the Rebuilder, a Goons player will not be helping the Rebuilder empty the Provinces, and a good Goons player will be able to accrue enough points to be guaranteed a win against a player using Victory cards alone.  Now this is not to say that you should ignore Rebuild in these cases; you should instead shift focus to the more powerful card, but feel free to pick up a Rebuild as a supplement.

My opponent is Rebuilding like crazy - what do I do?  Well, typically the best thing to do is mirror the Rebuild, and hope you can get a few more Duchies into your deck than your opponent.  If, for some reason, you don't want to do that, there are a couple things you can do.  Attacks are conventionally the easiest way to slow a player down, but Cursing/Looting will do little against a Rebuilder, except possibly make his Rebuilding less frequent.  Discard or Top-decking Attacks will usually help the Rebuilder (see below), so don't try those.  To counter a Rebuilder, you have to keep in mind how the Rebuilding goes down.  Rebuild works stepwise - Estate to Duchy to Province.  If you remove a step by emptying the Duchy pile, suddenly Rebuild is neutered.  Also realize that a Rebuilder is not gaining as many points as a player buying Victory cards outright - Rebuilding a Duchy into a Province only gains you 3 points.  Those other points are being thrown into the trash pile, where a Graverobber can handily nick them.  Now, Graverobbing the leavings of a Rebuilder may not be enough; the best way to knock one down is in the literal fashion: with Saboteur or Knights.  Rogue would simply be a Graverobber here, as its Attack only activates when there's nothing in the trash to find.  If the trash is full of Duchies, you won't be Attacking your opponent.  Only the first few turns will you be able to - the point when they're turning Estates into Duchies.  Saboteur is probably the best Attack to use against Rebuild.  Why?  Saboteur has no upper limit, so it can hit Provinces.  Saboteur is doing exactly the opposite of what a Rebuilder is trying to do - downgrading cards.  And a Rebuilder's deck is going to be full of Rebuilds and Victory cards - perfect targets for the typically mediocre Saboteur.  This will be most potent when the Duchy pile has run out, making Provinces drop 5 points down to an Estate, or 6 points to a non-Victory card; one such play can win you the game.  As such, Saboteur should be a mid-game buy - you'll want to get your own Rebuilds first while helping to empty the Duchy pile.  Now, you won't want to just pursue Saboteur - even here, you should be trying to Rebuild yourself, but that Saboteur can spell the difference between victory and defeat.  And if you can hit your opponent's Rebuilds, they are now dead in the water without a strategy.  Knights can also be helpful here, but they cannot hit Provinces, and can't go hunting like Saboteur can, so they may just uselessly discard Coppers.  Now be mindful that you need to be a fairly skilled player to pull off Sabotaging a Rebuilder - a novice player would most likely have too much trouble creating an economy while going for Saboteur, which is death when the other player really doesn't need to add to their economy.  The other options are to either fill the Rebuilder's deck with junk quickly enough with either Mountebank or Cultist that they can't find their Rebuilds often enough, or to pursue a Victory token strategy, typically with Goons, that can amass enough points to have no need of Provinces.

To review:
1) Rebuild is a very fast card that can dominate boards.
2) In general, name Province.
3) If going for a pure Rebuild strategy, only spend $5 on Rebuilds and Duchies.
4) A skilled player can use Saboteur to counter a Rebuilder.

Now let's discuss specific interactions with other cards.  Bear in mind that if you're going for a pure Rebuild strategy, any card costing $5 will get in the way of you buying Rebuilds and Duchies, and should most likely be ignored.

Shelters: According to Donald X, Rebuild was the last card to be added to the Dark Ages set, and, like Ironmonger, seems oddly ill-fitted to the expansion, as both cards suffer when Shelters are used.  Using Shelters replaces your starting Estates, leaving your starting deck with a single Victory card in it, and Overgrown Estate only costs $1 - that's not enough to Rebuild it into a Duchy - thus you have to make an extra step on your way to Provinces (or, happenstance forbid, Colonies).  This is not to say that you should ignore Rebuild in a Shelters game - just be mindful that you'll need to buy a few more Duchies (or Estates) to make it worthwhile.

Colonies: Rebuild, unlike most other cards, takes neither a boost nor a slump when Colonies are used.  True, it now requires an extra play of Rebuild to get your Victory cards to their highest potential, but Colony games tend to be longer anyway.  Rebuild can even be helpful in Colony games, as you need not outfit your deck with the necessary funds to procure Colonies - just Rebuild up to that.  Be aware, however, that although Provinces are now a stepping stone up to Colonies, they still count as an ending condition when they're all gone, so be mindful of the size of the pile.

Kingdom Victory cards:  Rebuild is certainly a convenient way to acquire alternate Victory cards, but don't look to it as a means to beef up their point totals.  Since Rebuild essentially replaces cards, most of the variable point Victory cards will not get any mileage out of Rebuild.  Better to just buy them outright, particularly Silk Road, which would prefer to keep your starting Estates.

So does Rebuild actually combo with any kingdom Victory card?  Yes, actually.

Tunnel: Just name Tunnel.  Your Estates will turn into Tunnels, and then you'll be swimming in Gold as the Tunnels just fly by.

Feodum: Unlike the other counting kingdom Victory cards, Feodum's point total will actually increase with Rebuild - when you trash a Feodum, you get three Silvers, increasing every Feodum you have by one Victory point.  Just remember to at least hang on to some Feoda.

Duke: Name Duchy or Duke every time.  Your Estates will turn into Duchies, allowing you to focus your $5 buys on Dukes, whose pile will quickly empty as your Rebuild finds them.  Or let them turn into Dukes, and buy Duchies.  Either way.  Just be mindful of that emptying, or you'll start to lose Dukes and/or Duchies.  Remember - you don't have to play a card in your hand.

Other standout interactions:

Baron: Rebuild takes away your Estates, so Baron can't make money for you (sad face), but then Baron gives you more Estates, which you can turn into Duchies (happy face).

Tournament/Explorer: Rebuild can help you get to those precious Provinces more quickly, allowing you to get the full potential out of these cards.  Once you've Rebuilt an Estate into a Duchy, make sure to name Estate to ensure your next Rebuild will hit that Duchy.

Trade Route: Don't you hate that niggling desire to buy an Estate to make your Trade Routes better?  Rebuild helps you get around that by quickly getting the token off of Duchies, and usually Provinces as well.

Rebuild as a defense: Rebuild can be an excellent way to counter a lot of Attacks.  Any Attack that forces you to place cards on top of your deck can be countered by putting Victory cards there for Rebuild to hit.  And Spying Attacks that like to leave Victory cards on top are very effectively neutered by Rebuild.  And while Wandering Minstrel and Farming Village snag on Ruins, and Scrying Pool snags on Curses, Rebuild discards them all (along with everything else).


Does well with:
Duke/Feodum/Tunnel
All that stuff I mentioned

Does badly with:
Scout
Most alternate Victory cards

Counter with:
Saboteur
Mountebank/Cultist
Victory token cards
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:49:21 pm by werothegreat »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 02:02:52 am »
+1

Not sure about Rebuild and alt VP.

It's no good for Gardens because it doesn't help you gain more cards.

It's not great for SR for the same reason.

I think it should actually be good for Farmland.  You often buy Farmland with the intention of later upgrading that Farmland to a Province by buying another Farmland.  Well, Rebuild can do that upgrade!  You wouldn't upgrade TO Farmland, but you would be happy to upgrade FROM Farmland.

I don't think Rebuilding into Harems and Nobles is a great plan.  You would need at least a 3 cost VP to get to them, so you can't go directly to them from Estate.  If you're rebuilding from Duchy, Province is far better.  However, if your game plan involves buying Nobles or Harems directly, it could be good to Rebuild them into Provinces after.

There may be situations where upgrading Estate->Island could be good, but you'd probably rather not upgrade FROM an Island.  if it was to be a midway point, Duchy is of course preferred.

I don't think Rebuild hurts Fairgrounds at all.  If it hits your only Estate, just take Estate back instead of upgrading to Duchy.  That said, Rebuild doesn't really help it either.

I expect it would be bad for Duke because you can't name both Duchy and Duke and you don't want to lose either.  Not to mention, why would you aim to upgrade Estate->Duchy but focus $5 on Dukes?  You could upgrade Estate->Duke and focus $5 on Duchy.  Why not that instead?  Or probably best of all, upgrade Estate->Duchy and focus $5 on Duchy until they are out, because Dukes are worthless without Duchy.  Like any Duke game, you want to get Duchies first.  But I think it's also worth mentioning that Rebuild kind of counters a Duke strategy anyway.  The Province player can make use of Rebuild as well, taking your Duchies and Dukes and upgrading them.  It would be an interesting game of tactics then -- pursue Dukes or Provinces?  What to name when Rebuilding?



On other combos you mention:

Tournament/Explorer: Does Rebuild actually help in getting Province faster?  If you start 4/3, you need at least one shuffle to hit $5, then the first play to upgrade Estate->Duchy, then the second play to be lucky enough to hit that Duchy instead of one of the other two Estates.  I think BM might get to the first Province faster on average.  I really don't know though.

Cellar/SC/Vault/Storeroom: Really, you just mean anything that discards cards.  Non-terminals would be better, so not your latter three there.  Cellar, sure.  Warehouse also comes to mind.  Sifters are good.





I can think of at least one more combo I think deserves mentioning -- Horse Traders.  HT is good for several reasons.  when you have HT in hand, you can usually reach $5 without trouble.  Early on this means snagging a bunch of Rebuilds.  Later, it means grabbing Duchies for your Rebuilds to hit.  It also provides +Buy, so you could also do cute things like picking up two Estates when you are running extra low on Rebuild targets.  Finally, it discards VP cards so that Rebuild can find them again.






You might also want to discuss how to play against Rebuild.  The big thing is that it relies on stepping stones.  If your opponent is relying entirely on Rebuild, you may be able to stop them just by buying Duchies early.  You will be left in a strong position if you are still able to buy Provinces but the Rebuilder can no longer reach them.  This is a plus for the $6 VP cards, since it gives more options for stepping stones to Province.  Maybe your Rebuild-heavy deck has trouble reaching $8, but $6 is more manageable.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 02:25:54 am »
0

I've been meaning to mention this for a while, but the site's articles have been getting more and more bloated as time has gone on. We don't need an exhaustive list of interactions for the card. A couple is fine, but this is way too many. It isn't an article so much as a list of combos.

It seems to me that the power of Rebuild is that it allows you to get Provinces (and Colonies) without needing to hit $8 (or $11). Your article mentions that you'll need to buy Duchies, but you should place more emphasis on that. It's really the key point. Once you have your Rebuilds, consider spending all your $5 and even $6 and $7 hands on Duchies.

Because Duchies are so important, Rebuild combos well with cards that let you hit $5 consistently, like Horse Traders, Explorer, etc. It's also good to have sifters, which allow you to cycle to your Rebuilds and discard the Victory cards you want to hit with them.

EDIT: Looks like eHalcyon already hit my major points. Whoops!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 02:29:04 am by LastFootnote »
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DG

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 06:19:38 am »
+1

I think the main point about a rebuild is that it skips the conventional economy. You can use a fast cycling deck with rebuilds to accumulate your vp. I think a good example would be a sea hag/warehouse opening, buying rebuild with the first 5 coin hand.

Keeping exact count of the estates, duchies, and provinces in your deck will let you make better rebuild decisions.

I think there's a lot more to rebuild than first meets the eye and it isn't immediately apparent how to use it well. It goes a long way beyond a few card combinations.
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werothegreat

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 10:28:41 am »
+1

See, whenever I'm writing something, I have the main idea in my head, but I always end up writing more about the details than the actual main idea.
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werothegreat

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 12:09:10 pm »
+1

I've edited and added some.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 12:38:28 pm »
0

With feodum your points will not always increase, as the total number of feodums in your deck need to be greater then the point total of your feodums.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 02:55:38 pm »
+1

The simulator shows Rebuild BM beats Envoy BM so it has quite a bit of raw power.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 03:10:33 pm »
0

The simulator shows Rebuild BM beats Envoy BM so it has quite a bit of raw power.

What is the simulator's Duchy buying policy when playing with Rebuild? Is it different from the standard BM one?
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 05:31:01 pm »
+1

First, a general comment: You list too many specific interactions and not enough general things to look for? In what type of kingdom is Rebuild generally going to be good? What other kinds of cards do I want to buy? I haven't played much with Rebuild, but I'd guess that the answer is that you generally want cards that are good for cycling but not necessarily for buying, since you just want to play Rebuilds and buy Duchies.

And one specific comment:
trashing a Province to gain another Province can be quite effective in emptying the pile if you already have a significant lead - in those cases, simply name a non-Victory card.
Shouldn't you name Estate, to make sure you hit Duchy or Province, so you can gain a Province?
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werothegreat

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 06:17:07 pm »
+1

First, a general comment: You list too many specific interactions and not enough general things to look for? In what type of kingdom is Rebuild generally going to be good? What other kinds of cards do I want to buy? I haven't played much with Rebuild, but I'd guess that the answer is that you generally want cards that are good for cycling but not necessarily for buying, since you just want to play Rebuilds and buy Duchies.

And one specific comment:
trashing a Province to gain another Province can be quite effective in emptying the pile if you already have a significant lead - in those cases, simply name a non-Victory card.
Shouldn't you name Estate, to make sure you hit Duchy or Province, so you can gain a Province?

I will work on that.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 03:26:02 am »
0

Thanks for the article, Wero.
I have been impressed by the speed of Rebuild games. I always think I will have time to build a nice engine, but then get caught before I am ready.
One thing I might suggest emphasizing is that in Province games (maybe in Colony too - I don't have any experience there) Duchies really become the choke-point/lynch-pin of the strategy. I suspect it would be optimal to name Duchy the first few times you use Rebuild to make all of your Estates into Duchies. This protects you from counters focused on removing this step (and I think is better in the mirror, too). Once you have 5 - 6 Duchies (3 from starting Estates and 2 - 3 from purchases), I would stop naming Duchy and allow them to become provinces. If you Rebuild 5 Duchies into Provinces then your opponent needs the last 3 Provinces, the last 3 Duchies, and more than half the Estates to win. You should be able to buy a few Estates or an extra Duchy or two to seal the deal.
It looks like Geronimoo has the beginings of a Rebuild strategy build into his simulator. I would be curious to play with the buy/Rebuild order to see if I am right or delusional.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 05:26:34 am »
0

The simulator shows Rebuild BM beats Envoy BM so it has quite a bit of raw power.

No surprise there. The card is extremely powerful. It even counters cursing strategies pretty well.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 08:06:19 am »
+7

Hurray! I played my first game of Dark Ages yesterday, so now I can finally join the conversation about DA cards.
(that game didn't include Rebuild but I'm not going to tell anyone)

I agree with the feedback that it's better to write more about the general playing concepts and less about specific cards.
Some more points in sort of random order:

  • Add something about 'the speed of rebuild-games'. I'd say they're moderately fast, but the most important point is they can't go really long because nobody will choke on green. Agree?
  • I have very strong doubts about using Saboteur against Rebuild.
    Basicly I'm buying a terminal $5 to fight a non-terminal $5. My card isn't doing more then theirs. Whenever they play their card, they get to make this choice on what to name. Whenever I play my card, they get this choice what to replace it with. The worst case scenario is when I hit a Province because then they get yet another Rebuild for free.
  • I think a very interesting point about fighting rebuild is that it only scores you 3 points / activation, while buying a province nets you 6 points (or even 10 for a Colony). Maybe you can write more on this?
  • Another really interesting thought is 'removing the Duchy level'. How do I do this? Can the rebuild player prevent it? Even in a shelters game? Is the Rebuild player forced to build up an economy that has a reasonable chance to hit $5 for this?
  • You make many references to 'green in your hands is a problem with rebuild strategies', but I think that's not true. As long as you don't have all your green in your hands, you're fine. Since you play a strategy with more green then average, that should almost never be a problem.
  • You make some references to 'guarrantee estate on top' with courtyard, mandarin, watchtower, cartographer, rabble, fortune teller, spy, scrying pool, bureacrat, ghost ship, ...
     but I have my doubts about that. The important thing about rebuild is that it just searches for that green card wherever it is. Interactions with almost any reordering is irrelevant.
  • A very important point is about 'increasing the frequency of activating rebuild'. I think you underestimate the impact of putting junk in the rebuild deck. I do really not believe you can ignore ambassador or masquerade with this card. Also it's the main reason cyclers have to be really really good for rebuild.
  • An interesting card to discuss may be Ill Gotten Gains. Rebuild feels good in IGG decks but it also has to compete at the $5 level. Any thoughts? Or does Rebuild flat-out defeats IGG?
  • Great halls: they seem quite good to me in a rebuild deck. Without them I'm probably forced to buy some estates into my own deck, and I really don't like that. Buying great halls in stead should be much better.
  • Farmlands: they look great to buy, except you'll probably never get to $6. Hitting even $5 in a rebuild-centered strategy feels like a problem.
  • This may be one of the cards that gets much better if both players are lower ranked. It just goes on and on increasing your points and you can't even buy too many and have them all collide. Like alchemist is much better for level 0-20 players then it is for level 30-50. Any thoughts on this?

Geronimoo stated Rebuild-BM beats Envoy-BM. Maybe you can dive into that? Is it still true if the envoy player gets a little bit smarter then a bot, and tries to use this "deny the duchy level" strategy? Or can the rebuild-bot fight that off somehow? Is it still true if you play with shelters? (I don't think so).
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 09:41:13 am »
0

Well, if your putting Rebuild-BM against another BM I wouldn't choose Envoy, I'd pick Embassy or Courtyard.

If you want to contend Duchies early, Envoy isn't the best BM enabler as it can choke pretty hard on Duchies. Normally with Envoy I try to pick up more money than usual and dip into Duchies at the absolute latest moment possible.

Embassy seems like a good card to deal with early Duchies, also because you can more easily get back to Golds and Provinces later. Embassy's price point can be an issue though. Taking two courtyards and rushing Duchies might be viable.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 10:24:10 am »
+1

I'm not an expert with Rebuild, but I feel like a couple of these points may not be completely accurate.

  • I have very strong doubts about using Saboteur against Rebuild.
    Basicly I'm buying a terminal $5 to fight a non-terminal $5. My card isn't doing more then theirs. Whenever they play their card, they get to make this choice on what to name. Whenever I play my card, they get this choice what to replace it with. The worst case scenario is when I hit a Province because then they get yet another Rebuild for free.

I haven't tried Saboteur against Rebuild, but one key point is that Duchies tend to run out. Therefore, if Saboteur does hit Province, you may not be able to grab a Duchy for it. Gaining another Rebuild instead might be useful, but you also might never get to play it.

Quote
  • Great halls: they seem quite good to me in a rebuild deck. Without them I'm probably forced to buy some estates into my own deck, and I really don't like that. Buying great halls in stead should be much better.

Adding Estates or Great Halls to your deck keeps you from turning Duchies into Provinces (and Provinces into Colonies). Under most circumstances, I wouldn't buy either unless the endgame was very quickly approaching.

Well, if your putting Rebuild-BM against another BM I wouldn't choose Envoy, I'd pick Embassy or Courtyard.

If you want to contend Duchies early, Envoy isn't the best BM enabler as it can choke pretty hard on Duchies. Normally with Envoy I try to pick up more money than usual and dip into Duchies at the absolute latest moment possible.

Embassy seems like a good card to deal with early Duchies, also because you can more easily get back to Golds and Provinces later. Embassy's price point can be an issue though. Taking two courtyards and rushing Duchies might be viable.

Also, buying Embassies gives your opponent free Silver, which is pretty nice when he's building an economy made to hit $5.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:25:58 am by LastFootnote »
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werothegreat

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2012, 11:52:15 am »
+1

Just played a couple games against a bot with Rebuild and Saboteur on the board.  Both times, the bot just ignored Rebuild and bought out the Duchies.  Although, the bot does buy Victory cards a lot more than a human player does.

It seems Saboteur here is mainly a distraction.  The first game, I did hit a Province with Saboteur, but I flubbed my first $5 by mistakenly just buying two Squires.  The second one I got the Rebuilds and the Saboteurs, but I couldn't play either of them often enough, and he kept buying Border Village, gaining a Duchy, ignoring Rebuild and Saboteur.  It seems the bots have preempted my article here and know exactly how to counter Rebuilds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:54:22 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2012, 12:06:51 pm »
0

Just played a couple games against a bot with Rebuild and Saboteur on the board.  Both times, the bot just ignored Rebuild and bought out the Duchies.  Although, the bot does buy Victory cards a lot more than a human player does.

It seems Saboteur here is mainly a distraction.  The first game, I did hit a Province with Saboteur, but I flubbed my first $5 by mistakenly just buying two Squires.  The second one I got the Rebuilds and the Saboteurs, but I couldn't play either of them often enough, and he kept buying Border Village, gaining a Duchy, ignoring Rebuild and Saboteur.  It seems the bots have preempted my article here and know exactly how to counter Rebuilds.

I think that's actually the bot just playing Border Village badly. The fact that Rebuild was on the board was just a coincidence. The bots seem to prefer Border Village over Gold almost always, and will often pick up a Duchy as their Border Village gain. Often it just ends up grinding their deck to a halt.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2012, 12:24:39 pm »
+1

If someone would like to test Rebuild vs. Saboteur with two real players, I'd love to see the results.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2012, 01:12:30 pm »
0

If someone would like to test Rebuild vs. Saboteur with two real players, I'd love to see the results.

If you want to try that on Goko, I'd be up for it.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 12:11:47 pm »
+1

Any final thoughts?  I think I've got the article pretty finalized.
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 01:00:44 pm »
+1

I disagree with the point about wanting to name Province most of the time. When playing a Rebuild strategy the most important thing is always going to be winning the Duchy split. Thus you always want to have at least one Estate in your deck and name Duchy (unless you have all your Estates in hand) until Duchies run out. This also means holding out on the Provinces until the Duchies are gone (otherwise you might burn through the Provinces, which can be useful at a later point when you're ahead).

On the other side, when fighting a Rebuild player with a conventional Strategy your first order of business should be getting at least 4 Duchies while building an economy. Why? Well, with 4 Duchies of his own your opponent is only ever going to get 4 Provinces. And while he has to burn trough his Duchies to get there you can hold on to your Duchies and buy the remaining Provinces. You still need a pretty fast strategy to beat them because then they'll start burning through the Provinces which you need at least 2 of (if you held on to all 4 Duchies).

If your opponent doesn't contest the Duchies however, I agree with your advice to name Province.
Of course this all gets blurry when Rebuild isn't the main focus but just used as an aside.
Also with alt VP on the board this will not always be true obviously.

Overall Rebuild is pretty hard to beat without utilizing a single Rebuild yourself. In the ~15 games I've played a 2 or 3 Rebuild strategy yielded 4 Provinces in 13 turns or less - easily beating BM+X. Unlike BM it also has no problem with choking on the green because you just start burning through the Provinces when you run out of Duchies.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:26:02 pm by PitzerMike »
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 01:13:00 pm »
0

Dude, you've bloated the article even more. Edit it down!
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werothegreat

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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 03:07:32 pm »
+1

Dude, you've bloated the article even more. Edit it down!

What would you snip?
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Re: Rebuild
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 03:17:10 pm »
+1

Dude, you've bloated the article even more. Edit it down!

What would you snip?

"Now let's discuss specific interactions" and everything after that.

EDIT: I am not kidding or exaggerating, by the way. I know you spent a lot of time writing all those interactions, but the article does not need them. Save a couple of choice ones for separate combo articles or something. As it is, this article seems way too long.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 03:31:01 pm by LastFootnote »
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