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Author Topic: Too many good cards.  (Read 2470 times)

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ratxt1

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Too many good cards.
« on: December 29, 2012, 01:54:36 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-224514-244c1ee7.html
Pretty sure I didn't play this optimally (though I do think vault watchtower would be part of best strategy), but damn this is probably the craziest kingdom I have seen just by pure card strength. Almost all of the cards are top 10 at there respective top, as well as having chapel, mountebank, and grand market almost universally considered the best 2,5, and 6, cost cards. Not only that but do we have vault grand markets best enabler, plus watchtower which is a power strategy with vault when it is super easy to make a deck that can draw itself with ease. Thoughts?
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ftl

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 02:42:38 am »
+1

Grand Market - definitely not the best $6-cost card! You'll see when Qvist's list comes out! (and you should vote in it!)

Definitely a super-powerful board though.

Chapel, Fishing Village, Watchtower, Grand Market, Vault are key here I'm pretty sure. FV/Watchtower for a draw engine, Grand Market to supercharge money, and Vault to get Grand Markets and for drawn-deck shenanigans with Watchtower. Chapel to put it all together.

Bishop is a massive trap. The points from bishop are gonna be peanuts here.

You know, I would guess that played optimally, City might also end up being a trap; with a chapeled-down engine, you'll be drawing your whole deck by the time cities get to L2 (when Grand Markets empty), and watchtower will be better draw since you have fishing village for endless actions. And by the time cities get to L3, the game would have piled out already. That's something to definitely play by ear depending on what your opponent is doing, though.

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 07:52:55 am »
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Bishop is a massive trap.

So no Golden Deck?
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zahlman

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 08:04:17 am »
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Bishop is a massive trap.

So no Golden Deck?

Mountebank will destroy that plan, and there are too many better options anyway. Besides, Colonies are out.

Anybody else want to go Chapel/TM, pick up a GM after colliding them, and work from there?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 08:06:51 am by zahlman »
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ratxt1

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 01:59:38 pm »
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I havn't played for like half a year, and just started back up again this week. At that time I am fairly certain grand market was considered the best 6 cost card(this is before dark ages was released). Maybe some dark ages or hinterlands card passed it up, or I am just totally forrgetting some other card.

There is so much stuff you can do on this board 5/2 split mountebank/chapel, or vault/chapel I am thinking, though mountebank might not even be that strong on this board (I never had more than one curse in my deck). 4/3 is a little harder, obviously want to grab chapel here but the other one I don't know. I think going bishop was a mistake, and I agree with ftl's anaylsis that bishop and city are probably traps (they felt like the were a lot less valuable than any of my other cards). I didn't really pick up on the power of watchtower untill later in the game so if I was to replay defintely would have picked it up much sooner (probably go chapel/watchtower into a fishing village watchtoer engine with some vaults, and than pick up some grandmarkets and more vaults). I think treasure map/chapel is just too slow for this board as you are going to be a few turns behind on your fishing village watchtower engine, and because of vault the fishing village watchtower engine is going to be hitting grand markets at the same time as you anyway, also in the late game four golds arn't going to be that much.

Another intersting question I have
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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 04:16:53 pm »
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I havn't played for like half a year, and just started back up again this week. At that time I am fairly certain grand market was considered the best 6 cost card(this is before dark ages was released). Maybe some dark ages or hinterlands card passed it up, or I am just totally forrgetting some other card.

...

Another intersting question I have

Goons is considered by most to be better than Grand Market, that's the one you're forgetting. It's a pretty considerable gap as well. I don't think anything in Dark Ages really compares - Altar and Hunting Ground are solid $6s, but don't really compare with either. Border Village from Hinterlands is kinda not far behind Grand Market, but there's a significant gap.

As for Mountebank, well, it's generally considered extremely close to Witch. Personally I'm surprised by that, Witch is just so much better in the head to head, and Mountebank's curse-block means, while it does junk better than Witch, it's not as much better as people like to believe. But, eh, what can I say?

You'll be glad to know at least there's not quite so much debate over Chapel. But more and more people are thinking Hamlet and/or Courtyard may actually be better nowadays (although, I still suspect over 75% would rate it first)

It looks like your post got cut off at the end there as well.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

ratxt1

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 04:39:13 pm »
+1

I knew that witch and mountebank were extremly close, as do I also know that hamlet and goons are pretty damn good as well. If you will note from the link you gave me for goons being better than grand market that the popularity had switched (goons moving above grandmarket), and the date being august 2012. So I guess moral of the story is that stuff has changed in 6 months, and last I was playing the three cards I named were almost universally considered the top of there respective categories (I'd say back than the mountebank is better than witch was more hotly contested than grand market better than goons). Anyway this discussion doesn't really matter much anyway, but thanks for letting me know all that (none of it is really suprising though).

The thing that got cutoff at the bottom was just some stuff on whether it was smart to keep one curse in the deck or if I should have trashed it I don't think it actually really matters much in the end though just minor stuff.
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ftl

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 04:50:19 pm »
+2

Qvist is putting together a new edition of the Best Cards List, btw! You should vote! :)
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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 03:42:03 pm »
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I knew that witch and mountebank were extremly close, as do I also know that hamlet and goons are pretty damn good as well. If you will note from the link you gave me for goons being better than grand market that the popularity had switched (goons moving above grandmarket), and the date being august 2012. So I guess moral of the story is that stuff has changed in 6 months, and last I was playing the three cards I named were almost universally considered the top of there respective categories (I'd say back than the mountebank is better than witch was more hotly contested than grand market better than goons). Anyway this discussion doesn't really matter much anyway, but thanks for letting me know all that (none of it is really suprising though).

The thing that got cutoff at the bottom was just some stuff on whether it was smart to keep one curse in the deck or if I should have trashed it I don't think it actually really matters much in the end though just minor stuff.

Going way off topic now, you're right, Goons was below Grand Market first time, but it was far from being an almost universal decision; the average ratings were less than 1/3rd of a place apart and a lot of the following comments were people questioning why Grand Market was above Goons.

As for keeping a curse, I'd say if you get the oppertunity to trash it, you should. Your deck isn't/wasn't going to be thin enough for it to reliably block coppers, and well you'd need to block at least two coppers with it to come out ahead, and that's pretty unlikely.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

ratxt1

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 06:23:18 pm »
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Qvist is putting together a new edition of the Best Cards List, btw! You should vote! :)

I would but I havn't played with dark ages yet. Is there way to just vote on non-dark ages cards? Also is there a place to play with dark ages cards?
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Grujah

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Re: Too many good cards.
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 06:25:17 pm »
+2

Qvist is putting together a new edition of the Best Cards List, btw! You should vote! :)

I would but I havn't played with dark ages yet. Is there way to just vote on non-dark ages cards? Also is there a place to play with dark ages cards?

You can vote even without darkages (just put them at bottom and say that you do not know that expansion).

You can play with DA on goko.com
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