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[eliegel34]

This board is a mess.  I'm really not quite sure where to go.  I see BM Courtyard, which is always good, a Swindler double Tactician, and a Courtyard Worker's Village draw engine.  I went for the Swindler Double Tact, and failed miserably.  tat (my opponent) did a great job of balancing money with Tactician and keeping a fairly simple deck.  One of the most interesting choices is whether or not to get a chapel, and how aggressively to trash. 

I think the Chapel/Swindler engine would beat any big money pretty badly since it could get so many swindler plays and get rid of so many Silver/Coppers into Great Hall/Shanty Town/Curse. 

I'm pretty sure i had fairly bad luck with Swindler and that is part of why I lost, but I'm also sure I didn't play this optimally. What I'm wondering how you play a board that is this fluid and what direction you think is best. 

Border Village, Chapel, Contraband, Courtyard, Great Hall, Nomad Camp, Shanty Town, Swindler, Tactician, and Worker's Village

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/27/game-20121227-233111-686bd314.html

[ftl]

The way to play this board is probably to chapel down, play lots of swindlers, and hope against all hope that swindler luck goes your way. No matter what you do, there's SO many swindlers that are going to be played that it COULD come down to luck.

Here on turns 13-14 you hit the following cards of his: Chapel (replaced with Chapel), Province (replaced with Province), Province (Replaced with province), Chapel (Replaced with chapel), Province (replaced with Province). Yeah.

I believe that all game, you never hit a single swindler of his with your swindler? Yep. He hit yours twice.

I dunno. I hope better players than I can sort out what you could have done better here. But swindler luck was so not on your side. 

[dondon151]

Yeah, I don't like double Tactician here because all of the $ generating Actions require extra actions to play and a bad Swindler hit can instantly kill your engine.

[ehunt]

I recommend vetoing swindler. I'm always a little insulted when my opponent vetoes treasure map.

[Titandrake]

I recommend vetoing swindler. I'm always a little insulted when my opponent vetoes treasure map.

As someone who vetoes random, that's sad to hear.

I can't get annoyed at Swindler's high variance. I have this bad habit of calling the best possible Swindler hit, and then actually getting it. As in, hitting an opening $5, or hitting a Province when there are 2 Provinces left. I've probably lost lots of games to Swindler, but all I remember are the times I've won because of it. I feel that you just go with what Swindler gives you, while trying to make a redundant strategy along the way.

As for this game in particular, I agree that a BM strategy probably won't work against an engine with Swindlers. My guess is, Chapel/Swindler, trash down while picking up Worker's Village and Swindlers, then try to primarily buy Border Villages to help defend against Swindler. Not sure if you want Tact; it's probably necessary because the only other +Cards is Courtyard and that gets swindled into Estate.

[ehunt]

I recommend vetoing swindler. I'm always a little insulted when my opponent vetoes treasure map.

As someone who vetoes random, that's sad to hear.

I can't get annoyed at Swindler's high variance. I have this bad habit of calling the best possible Swindler hit, and then actually getting it. As in, hitting an opening $5, or hitting a Province when there are 2 Provinces left. I've probably lost lots of games to Swindler, but all I remember are the times I've won because of it. I feel that you just go with what Swindler gives you, while trying to make a redundant strategy along the way.

As for this game in particular, I agree that a BM strategy probably won't work against an engine with Swindlers. My guess is, Chapel/Swindler, trash down while picking up Worker's Village and Swindlers, then try to primarily buy Border Villages to help defend against Swindler. Not sure if you want Tact; it's probably necessary because the only other +Cards is Courtyard and that gets swindled into Estate.

(I was just being flippant, I'm not actually insulted!)

I actually think swindler may be the most poorly understood card that's not in Dark Ages (I mean by humanity, including myself; I don't mean that I have an understanding of swindler that I wish other people had). Like Tournament, it's swingy and really good, which makes it frustrating to play against (compare Treasure Map, which is swingy but bad, so I'm probably happy when my opponent opens with it without good support). Unlike Tournament, it occasionally leaves you with some pretty hairy decisions that matter a lot. Do you play it or not in the late game when it might end the game? When is it time to stop turning apprentices into duchies? What about harvests? Also unlike Tournament, there are a lot of subtle interactions between Swindler and the rest of the board. Is there no six-cost? Is there trash-for-benefit? Is there peddler? Border village? All of these matter a lot.

I have read Donald X. in at least two places say that a common beginner mistake is to swindle someone's 3-cost, be too scared to give them a swindler, and so give them a silver instead. This surprises me a lot that this is a mistake because I would really rather my opponent have one swindler and a silver than have two swindlers - they might collide, but they might not! And agh! Two swindlers! But I mean, it's Donald X. Maybe I am overrating swindler? Is swindler/swindler or swindler/silver the stronger opening?

[DrFlux]

I have read Donald X. in at least two places say that a common beginner mistake is to swindle someone's 3-cost, be too scared to give them a swindler, and so give them a silver instead. This surprises me a lot that this is a mistake because I would really rather my opponent have one swindler and a silver than have two swindlers - they might collide, but they might not! And agh! Two swindlers! But I mean, it's Donald X. Maybe I am overrating swindler? Is swindler/swindler or swindler/silver the stronger opening?

As usual "it depends on the kingdom".

I think that usually swindler swindler is the stronger open. Especially if there are useless cards at 3 and/or 4, or if your opponent opens with a 5 or 2 cost card. If you can swindle silvers into loans or moneylenders into potions, swindler just becomes crushing. Also, the chance of your opponent hitting your only swindler with his swindler does come up, and that's a bad place to be in if you don't have another.

On the other hand, if its a money board where vault+BM is the best thing going (other than swindler), I'd probably only open one. Hitting their vaults is helpful, but in this case hitting their coppers is worse than normal, and they will have a number of gold which are also useless to hit.

I think its rare I would swindle my opponent's silver and give them a swindler. But it could happen, say if they already have two, and there are no villages. Of course there also has to be no better option, as chancellor would be more fun.

[ftl]

 if they already have a bunch of other terminals. If they open double swindler, then pick up a 5 cost terminal and a silver on turns 3 and 4... Then if you hit their silver, giving t then a swindler is pretty likely to be right.