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[Eevee]

Can I ask a theory/setup question?

I've never played a game with multiple bad guy factions before.  Looking at the card list, there's some listed "werewolf" which sounds cool, but is otherwise just a second mafia?  Also, if there are multiple factions, are they smaller than usual?

last game there were 3 mafia, 2 WW andn 1 SK... all different factions who didn't know each other. I believe there are just as many cards for WW as there are mafia, so they have equal odds of being a certain size.

Iirc cayvie said he'd balance it if it came out something ridiculous. So I'm expecting factions of close to equal strength (also not bastard mafia, so that is to be expected).

Dont think voting for Galzria is warranted really. RVS and obvskidding, I'd even wager he'd make a controversial joke like that more often as town.

[sparky5856]

Fastest "game start" to "Robz snaps" time ever.

In a different way, of course.

In all seriousness though, I want to hear what Robz has to say. You're thinking of a full suit and number claim from everyone right Robz? I could see some benefits to that actually, but... it's a massclaim we're talking about X_X

Vote: sparky

Idk, obv not much but better than my usual rvs votes. This post felt forced to me. OBVIOUSLY robz was joking and sparky is too smart to not realize that.

Note: I've made a point of trying to stick my vote somewhere during RVS. This time it was easy because no one else justified their voting in a scummy way (to me). That being said, I do realize I've probably never had a town read on sparky so this might be just me being biased. I'm starting to think I subconsciously look for reasons to have a town read on Robz, Galzria and the likes and always suspect the sparkys, asherskys, archetypes and jimms of the world. Probably because I find myself agreeing with Galzria and Robz so much and am always left confused with posts from the "scum read" group I seem to have developed.

Obviously Robz was joking when Voltgloss and Axxle also responded in a serious way.

Also I think I've only been town like... once, so far out of like six games? So that may explain why you always have a scum read on me xD

[sparky5856]

Oh and for the record, I never seem to have a scum read on Eevee, cause whenever I see him he's always town xD

[Galzria]

You're correct Eevee. However I WOULD have no difficulty seeing Scum!Yuma jumping onto an obvious joke to try and make a real case out of it, which is exactly what "this is aserious vote and Iwill stick with it until given a very good reason to unvote or change my vote" is attempting to do. Vote: Yuma

Oh, and this is aserious vote and Iwill stick with it until given a very good reason to unvote or change my vote.

[sparky5856]

I'm inclined to think scum-Yuma would be more invisible than that. Or maybe it's WIFOM >_<

[jotheonah]

Vote: sparky

Eevee's got good reads.

[Axxle]

Eevee has very good gut, but currently I think this Galzria/yuma argument might be the best thing to look into.

I think Galz is town for putting himself out there like he did.  But I think scum yuma might sit back and let someone else make that first "selfvote!" vote.  In conclusion I think it might be town v. town.  My biggest question is why joth didn't think it worth mentioning in the post right above mine?

@joth: what do you think of Galz v. yuma?

Vote: sparky for Eevee.

[Axxle]

Unvote: Sparky

What am I doing voting with joth...

[jotheonah]

Galz vs yuma:

Galz was doing goofy RVS. Null tell.

yuma got really indignant. slight scum tell.

Verdict: Probably town v town, but possible yuma is scum.

What's wrong with voting with me? Voting with me is pro-town.

[yuma]

vote back on me is understandable. And I realized it was a joke. But it is the principle. I am highly likely (there may be unforeseen situations where voting for someone is just a plain bad move) to vote for people that vote for themselves. I am aware that town players often self vote, and in the past lynches on people that have selfvoted are often town. But again, self voting is anti-town. It always is. So don't do it. Ever. There is always a better way to express whatever frustration you are experiencing than self voting. If you don't believe me, see me in Day 2 in MV where I was more frustrated than I have ever been in a mafia game, didn't self vote, and wasn't lynched.

so morale of the story, don't self vote. Galz did, I know it was a joke, but I voted so people know I am very serious about this.

Call me indignant, I don't care, as long as town wins the game. And I think self voting doesn't help town win the game.

[Axxle]

Galz vs yuma:

Galz was doing goofy RVS. Null tell.

yuma got really indignant. slight scum tell.

Verdict: Probably town v town, but possible yuma is scum.

What's wrong with voting with me? Voting with me is pro-town.

I meant voting with you before I got your answer.  Seems good to me.

vote back on me is understandable. And I realized it was a joke. But it is the principle. I am highly likely (there may be unforeseen situations where voting for someone is just a plain bad move) to vote for people that vote for themselves. I am aware that town players often self vote, and in the past lynches on people that have selfvoted are often town. But again, self voting is anti-town. It always is. So don't do it. Ever. There is always a better way to express whatever frustration you are experiencing than self voting. If you don't believe me, see me in Day 2 in MV where I was more frustrated than I have ever been in a mafia game, didn't self vote, and wasn't lynched.

so morale of the story, don't self vote. Galz did, I know it was a joke, but I voted so people know I am very serious about this.

Call me indignant, I don't care, as long as town wins the game. And I think self voting doesn't help town win the game.

This is a yuma I don't think I've seen before.  I'll have to go back and check, but I don't think you've ever been this adamant about meta arguments like "XYZ is always bad".

[yuma]

I haven't. I have had discussions in different venues about self voting, especially in MXV--where I hammered SK-Galz for self voting...

This was especially after being scum in MXIV and seeing how badly self voting hurt town--and basically allowed scum to cruise to victory because of it.

But seriously, does anyone dispute this? Is self voting ever beneficial to town? Again I am not arguing that self voting is more or less likely to be mafia. I am asking is it more or less likely to be helpful to town. And if it isn't, town should never do it. So the only people that would self vote would be mafia. Therefore vote those who self vote.

[Robz888]

vote back on me is understandable. And I realized it was a joke. But it is the principle. I am highly likely (there may be unforeseen situations where voting for someone is just a plain bad move) to vote for people that vote for themselves. I am aware that town players often self vote, and in the past lynches on people that have selfvoted are often town. But again, self voting is anti-town. It always is. So don't do it. Ever. There is always a better way to express whatever frustration you are experiencing than self voting. If you don't believe me, see me in Day 2 in MV where I was more frustrated than I have ever been in a mafia game, didn't self vote, and wasn't lynched.

so morale of the story, don't self vote. Galz did, I know it was a joke, but I voted so people know I am very serious about this.

Call me indignant, I don't care, as long as town wins the game. And I think self voting doesn't help town win the game.

But... I don't know. Something about this "I won't ever abide self-votes" rings hollow to me. If Galzria votes himself for joke reasons, is it really so much worse than voting for someone else for joke reasons, which is exactly what RVS is?

Obviously a serious self-vote makes no sense. And a self-vote at a critical juncture--like when you have a wagon building against you--can spell frustration, or maybe it's tactic, but in any case, it can be good grounds to vote for that person.

Here, I'm not so sure.

[Robz888]

Although, you voting for SK Galz because of his self-vote in M-XV helps explain your staunch position, and eases my concern about you here.

[ashersky]

I haven't. I have had discussions in different venues about self voting, especially in MXV--where I hammered SK-Galz for self voting...

This was especially after being scum in MXIV and seeing how badly self voting hurt town--and basically allowed scum to cruise to victory because of it.

But seriously, does anyone dispute this? Is self voting ever beneficial to town? Again I am not arguing that self voting is more or less likely to be mafia. I am asking is it more or less likely to be helpful to town. And if it isn't, town should never do it. So the only people that would self vote would be mafia. Therefore vote those who self vote.

I think I lead the field in self-votes...and they are anti-town.  Look at Cayvie self-hammering in DoMafia.  That said, man sometimes you just really get fed up with being suspected for "no reason" as town and just toss out the self-vote.  That was me, obviously.  Maybe not others.

All that said, RVS self-vote jokes are fine.  Really.  No issues there.

Also, unvote since I think we're leaving RVS territory now or soon and the time zone thing will creep up on me soon.

[Lekkit]

and the time zone thing will creep up on me soon.

I want to say this once more here. I'm at GMT+1, so I'll mostly be online during your (assuming you are in America) nights and forenoons. I cannot guarantee that I will be online during your afternoons and evenings.

[Lekkit]

Also, getting a mixed vibe from yuma. Calling out something like a self-vote with a serious vote sounds really bold for scum. Especially when it's 1 page into the game. To me that reads as a townie trying to make a point rather than voting to hit scum. However he get's really defensive when people notices that he votes for someone he doesn't find scummy, but rather anti-town. With the possibility of 3 (?) scum factions, I think scumhunting should be much more prioritized than lynching people over a self-vote.

I'll go see what I can find on yuma's earlier self-vote hate.

[Eevee]

If someone is coming out scummy to me from the Galzria-yuma minifight, it's definitely yuma. Robz says it pretty well, selfvoting in a situation where the vote cant lead to a lynch is just whatever and all in good fun. Whoever said yuma's strong stance against selfvoting feels forced, that was my first instinct too. However, why would scumyuma invent a strong opinion like this - just to justify sticking his vote on galzria? doesn't seem worth it, I probably shouldnt coach yuma in how to play scum but this reminds me of the switch game where he got a lot of heat for hammering the serial killer and almost got (mis)lynched. Inviyuma is scum, suspected Yuma is town until proven otherwise?

So, I conclude I don't find anything scummy in the galz-Yuma interaction. Looking back to sparkys reaction to my vote and the surprising traction it got from joth and axxle, I think it's interesting  he chose to go for the classic Robz defense "I can see why you'd think that, and usually it would be right..". Now, I admit it's hard to respond to a case that essentially reads "your post felt insincere", but sparky didnt even try. That being said, I'm surprised joth and axxle saw my post worth sheeping. Not behaviour I'd expect from either, but as I've said I really like early wagons to get the game rolling, so I guess I should just be humbled someone thinks I'm worth sheeping. Might be the first time! Isn't it all but confirmed we have multiple scum teams? That pretty much changes the whole scumhunting routine around for me, wagon analysis gets less useful until its very late and trying to find people who aren't scumhunting isn't a way to find scum anymore. I actually have an idea for a way in a setup like this, but I'd rather observe a bit before telling it because its really easy for scum just not do it after I say what it is.

I'm starting to understand how galz writes his wall of texts from mobile, this isn't that bad.

[ashersky]

I can vouch for yuma's intense stance against self-voting for previous interactions,if that helps anyone with their reads.

As it is, I wouldn't vote either Galz or Yuma for either of their parts in the discussion.

[cayvie]

Vote Count 1.1

Galzria (1): yuma
Eevee (1): Lekkit
sparky5856 (2): Eevee, jotheonah
yuma (1): Galzria

Not Voting (11): Archetype, sparky5856, Robz888, shraeye, ashersky, Grujah, Voltgloss, Insomniac, Cuzz, jimmmmm, Axxle

With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch.

[Lekkit]

I skimmed through the first 35 pages of MXV, and while I don't agree with yuma, he was pretty adamant about the lynching self voters policy. I do think there's a huge difference between a self vote halfway through a wagon and as one of the first posts of the day.

Unvote, as we're getting out of RVS.

[ashersky]

vote: Voltgloss

I will unvote when he posts.  I urge others to vote for others ho have not posted (I.e. Shraeye).

[Eevee]

vote: Voltgloss

I will unvote when he posts.  I urge others to vote for others ho have not posted (I.e. Shraeye).

That doesn't really do anything if they just haven't found the thread yet.

[ashersky]

vote: Voltgloss

I will unvote when he posts.  I urge others to vote for others ho have not posted (I.e. Shraeye).

That doesn't really do anything if they just haven't found the thread yet.

It's worked in the past.

[Eevee]

vote: Voltgloss

I will unvote when he posts.  I urge others to vote for others ho have not posted (I.e. Shraeye).

That doesn't really do anything if they just haven't found the thread yet.

It's worked in the past.

I doubt the fact they eventually find the thread has much to do with you voting for them or not. It's christmas time, not like anyone is inexcusably lurking!

.. but that's still better than not voting at all, who am I to judge.