Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed  (Read 3758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« on: September 09, 2011, 04:27:25 pm »
0

I played a game today where I started with a lucky opening of 5/2 and bought and Apprentice and an Embargo. Other good $5's were Festival and City, City less so because no pile would be emptied fast. I chose Apprentice over the also available Trade Route for strong end game possibilities with Festivals (and perhaps a Trade Route or 2) for multiple Buys. Maybe going Festival first and Apprentice later would have been right, I don't know, I chose the Apprentice, since I'm an avid trashing afficionado.

I was lucky enough to shuffle my Embargo into turn 3 and I embargoed the Apprentices. To my surprise, my opponent still bought one and took the Curse. I guess one Curse isn't so much, especially with the trasher that he got.

This made me wonder: What cards are so good that you'd buy them even when they're embargoed? I can compile a list of crucial Cursers here (Mountebank, Witch), but I'd like to see your views and maybe discover some less obvious ones.

I think the reverse question is much more insightful though and I'll make it bold to stress the importance:
Which "essential" cards do you refrain from buying when they're embargoed?

In other words: Which cards are very nice to have, but not nice enough to warrant getting even one Curse over? This would obviously have to be some borderline cards like for instance... Cutpurse?

As always, looking forward to your replies.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

tko

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 04:40:14 pm »
0

Good question.  I'd probably still buy a Witch, Mountebank, Familiar, or Goons.  Maybe it would be folly - I'd weigh it based on what my opponent was able to buy prior to that.

For example...
Turn 1: Opponent buys Potion
Turn 1: I buy Potion
Turn 2: Opponent buys Embargo
Turn 2: I buy Embargo
Turn 3: Opponent buys Familiar
Turn 3: I trash Embargo on Rabble and buy a Hunting Party
Turn 4: Opponent trashes Embargo on Familiar and buys Hunting Party
Turn 4: I would buy a Familiar now if I could, though it would be an uphill battle.

[Edit] I realize the topic is cards I would refrain from buying... also a good question.   I would not buy Torturer, Pirate Ship (except maybe in 4 player), and Hoard.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 04:49:36 pm by tko »
Logged

Epoch

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 420
  • Respect: +37
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 05:14:03 pm »
0

I recently played in a game with Embargo and Familiar (as the only Potion-cost card).  I opened Potion, and my opponent Embargoed Familiar.  I shrugged and bought one anyway.  I'm happy to go 9-1 on Curses -- sounds like a pretty awesome deal, in fact.

I then re-Embargoed Familiar, and my opponent, seeming to realize the error of his ways, bought a Potion and eventually a Familiar, sucking down the 2 Curses in the process.


Cards I won't consider if they're Embargoed (and Curses are still heavily in Supply, of course) are generally cards you want to spam.  Not a lot of point in picking up 1 Curse per Lab, no matter how good Lab is ordinarily.

Victory cards are also very painful when Embargoed -- you're really roughing up your deck when you add two unplayable cards to it with one buy.
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2976
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3809
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 05:23:57 pm »
0

If I open Warehouse / Treasure Map, and my opponent embargoes the Treasure Maps, I'll certainly eat the curse and buy a second Treasure Map anyway.

I'd also probably eat the curse to get a powered-up City.
Logged

tko

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 06:07:21 pm »
0

I thought of another "essential" card...  I think I might avoid King's Court if it was Embargoed except in a Possession match.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 06:11:06 pm »
0

While thinking about this myself I also thought about the usual cantrips like Labs and activated Cities.

The problem with Embargo is that you're hurting yourself as much as your opponents if you Embargo those cards.
Embargo is usually used for cards that you already have, but you don't want your opponent to have, but if you have an early advantage, you want to push that advantage by buying more, not less.

I can see an opponent Embargoing Labs when he failed to buy the first one and possibly going a different strategy.

Cards I would "bite the bullet" for certainly include the usual suspects and at the bottom I could see Militia if BMU-Militia would be the only sensible strategy. And of course cards I am already planning for like the Familiar and Treasure Map examples.

However, cards I would leave behind may include some $2's which are not essential to my strategy and the aforementioned cantrips; Minion is another good example here.

I understand it's hard to speculate about any card without the context of their full setups, but I think this debate still has some merit.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

ehunt

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1463
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1718
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 06:33:28 pm »
0

I don't think familiar is as clear as it's been made out to be. Yeah, embargo wouldn't give me much pause before I bought my first familiar (especially if I've already committed to a potion - which, by the way, is much like a curse already in the endgame), but it would definitely give me pause before buying my second.

By this logic, if there's OK trashing (say, apprentice, but maybe even lookout, let alone steward or chapel) or an alternative cursing mechanism, then embargoing familiar seems like the right move - the reason to fear the familiar is that it's spammable; an opponent with one familiar in the deck is not much scarier than an opponent with one witch in the deck.

I love to embargo the alchemist after my opponent has opened potion.
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +844
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 03:48:20 am »
0

Spammed Familiars beats BMU 70%-26%

Spammed Familiars loses to BMU+Embargo 46%-49%

Familiar player will always buy at least one Familiar, but will stop as soon as it's Embargoed (buying more will decrease its win rate and buying none as well)

So you might want to reconsider opening Potion if there's only the Familiar to gain with it AND there's Embargo in the supply.

Here are the bots if you want to try it for yourself:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Familiar despite Embargo">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Familiar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Familiar"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Familiar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInOpponentsDecks" attribute="Embargo"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Familiar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Embargo"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Familiar">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Embargo"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Code: [Select]
<player name="One Embargo and money">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Embargo">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Embargo"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Embargo"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2011, 04:57:33 am »
0

What about the stats for a Single Familiar vs BMU+Embargo?

Are the opportunity costs for the Potion and the actual Familiar too high with just one Curse?
The BMU-player would have just bought 2 Silvers instead (one for $4 and one for $3+Silver).
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4071
  • Respect: +2611
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2011, 09:02:59 am »
0

Each familiar itself is a silver that is not purchased. In some decks the lack of income from familiars, potion, and any incoming curses is irrelevant. In some decks it will determine the game.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2011, 11:13:07 am »
0

Here are the bots if you want to try it for yourself:

Why does the bot embargo the Familiars?
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1047
  • Respect: +844
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 11:26:03 am »
0

Play rules for Embargo: http://dominionsimulator.wordpress.com/play-rules/seaside/embargo/

(Don't look for other play rules yet, I'm working on it and they'll be published soon)
Logged

tlloyd

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Respect: +82
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 01:19:13 pm »
0

The problem with Embargo is that you're hurting yourself as much as your opponents if you Embargo those cards.
Embargo is usually used for cards that you already have, but you don't want your opponent to have, but if you have an early advantage, you want to push that advantage by buying more, not less.

The exception to this rule - and thus the circumstance in which Embargo really shines - is when there are key cards that you only want one of. Mint and Tactician come to mind (especially if you open 5/2 and your opponent opens 4/3). Also, you really only want one of most trashers (other than Apprentice), so embargo can be helpful there--although this isn't quite as strong a move, since other than Forge most trashers are cards you opponent will open with, and the presence of a trasher makes the curse they gain less troublesome.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 05:18:31 pm »
0

From the top of my head there are only a few $5 trashers: Apprentice, Trading Post and Upgrade.
And then there are the $7's Expand and Forge.

If one of these is the only trasher, these are prime Embargo targets. However, the only trashing card in a setup may be so necessary that it warrants getting the Curse over. Still, Embargoing these yourself and giving your opponent an early setback can really be worthwile.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

RobF

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2011, 07:05:47 pm »
0

What about something like Gold or Province or Duchy?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 10:55:50 pm »
0

Embargoing Duchy or duke can really kill a duke strategy. On the other hand, embargoing province can really give duchy/duke a big leg up. If you open 5/2 with witch or mountebank on the board, you can really seal the back door on a 4/3 opponent by embargoing the curse-giver or, on the rare occasion when some engine can compete with you, the key engine card. Actually, embargoing engine cards in general can be quite strong. It's almost like a veto, because it's rarely worth it to go over an embargo.
Also, in a game with curse-givers, embargoing something like gold is a way for you to be able to build your engine up if your opponent is going for quicker money than you - the gold (or province or whatever it is you want to embargo) will still be there for you later with no penalty, whereas the opponent doesn't want to lock himself into losing the curse race and slow is hampered by your embargo much more than you.

Anon79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
  • Respect: +39
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 08:52:08 pm »
0

From the top of my head there are only a few $5 trashers: Apprentice, Trading Post and Upgrade.
And then there are the $7's Expand and Forge.
Mint.

Given Hinterland's new theme, Embargo is set to become most interesting.
Logged

rspeer

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +875
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 09:20:02 pm »
0

Play rules for Embargo: http://dominionsimulator.wordpress.com/play-rules/seaside/embargo/

(Don't look for other play rules yet, I'm working on it and they'll be published soon)

So it looks at the opponents' strategies to determine what to embargo. Clever, but I have to say I object to this as much as I'd object to a strategy that peeks at the top card of its deck.

I'm pretty sure literally reading your opponent's mind is against the rules of Dominion, not to mention a bit difficult to pull off outside of the simulator.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2011, 12:40:37 am »
0

From the standpoint of programming an actual Dominion playing AI, absolutely. As an approximate hack to enable simulating Embargo, I think it's a pretty reasonable move. Guessing your opponent's plan well enough to Embargo is usually not so hard that that constitutes an unbelievable advantage for the sim.
Logged

KristianBahle

  • Guest
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2011, 01:14:20 am »
0

From the top of my head there are only a few $5 trashers: Apprentice, Trading Post and Upgrade.
And then there are the $7's Expand and Forge.
Given Hinterland's new theme, Embargo is set to become most interesting.

??
Logged

AJD

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2976
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3809
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2011, 01:36:39 am »
0

The Hinterlands theme is "stuff that happens when you buy/gain a card". Embargo is also a card that makes stuff happen when you buy a card; it will be interesting to see if any of the Hinterlands new on-buy effects create interesting reasons to defy Embargoes, or interesting interactions with the Embargo effect.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4733
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Cards You (Don't) Buy When They're Embargoed
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2011, 03:01:10 am »
0

From the standpoint of programming an actual Dominion playing AI, absolutely. As an approximate hack to enable simulating Embargo, I think it's a pretty reasonable move. Guessing your opponent's plan well enough to Embargo is usually not so hard that that constitutes an unbelievable advantage for the sim.
If 2 Players have played countless games, it's actually pretty easy to guess what the other will do.
This has a drawback that you can get stuck in the "he knows that I know that he knows" sort of loop, but with some dominant strategies that are hard to deviate from, this may not be as much of a concern.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.128 seconds with 20 queries.