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Author Topic: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?  (Read 80494 times)

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2012, 09:26:16 am »
+1

Surprised that "Broke/Cheapskate and not that into Base Set Only or Begging" isn't an option!  That is 95% my reason.

The other 5% is that I don't use Chrome or Firefox Betas, so it's laggy for me.

You can always buy in increments. You can buy half a set for 40 Gokoins and you can purchase 20 Gokoins each for $2. So, if you want, you can invest $4 a month and gradually build up your collection that way.

Even if I buy in increments, the cost will still be the same.

More, actually. Well unless you buy Dark Ages/Super Pack 1/Super Pack 2 in increments and say screw the small coin and Zaps bonus of the Mega Bundle.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2012, 10:54:05 am »
+8

The problem with Goko isn't this or that minor bug, but that a priori an interface with animations and lots of unnecessary pictures makes the game tedious.

Would I think this if isotropic never had existed? Maybe, since I didn't like Brettspielwelt for this exact reason. And even if not, this isn't relevant, you cannot pretend isotropic never existed. Simply put isotropic is the best implementation of a card/board game I've seen online, and going from 5-6 min avg game to 10-12 min (or more?) isn't really an option.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2012, 12:00:50 pm »
+2

The problem with Goko isn't this or that minor bug, but that a priori an interface with animations and lots of unnecessary pictures makes the game tedious.

Would I think this if isotropic never had existed? Maybe, since I didn't like Brettspielwelt for this exact reason. And even if not, this isn't relevant, you cannot pretend isotropic never existed. Simply put isotropic is the best implementation of a card/board game I've seen online, and going from 5-6 min avg game to 10-12 min (or more?) isn't really an option.

Best implementation... for you.  I like the pretty pictures, and most casual players (who, being the vast majority, are the intended market) do, too.  If I'm playing a card game online, I expect to see the cards.  Would you play Solitaire with just little icons?
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2012, 12:33:39 pm »
+4

No text mode, no point counter, no veto mode. Slower, doesn't feel as competitive. Also I hear it crashes and has bugs. Haven't played a single game there yet, and I won't as long as I don't have to.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2012, 12:50:17 pm »
+3

No text mode, no point counter, no veto mode.

So the problem is that it's more like actual Dominion. Gotcha.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2012, 01:49:04 pm »
+5

So the problem is that it's more like actual Dominion. Gotcha.

that's cute but it isn't constructive at all. playing IRL many people engage in some form of veto mode for constructing sets. some people will keep track of points as they go, and text mode isn't really relevant at all. so i'm not sure what the point you are trying to make is.

and of course we can flip this on it's head rather easily. real life dominion doesn't have 1p mode and AI, elaborate animations, zaps, or music so does that make isotropic more like actual dominion? the snide comments about goko get old but some of the responses i've seen defending goko now aren't much better.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2012, 02:01:23 pm »
+3

No text mode, no point counter, no veto mode.

So the problem is that it's more like actual Dominion. Gotcha.

Well veto mode is just as much like actual Dominion as full random. (edge case: you tricked your opponent into playing veto mode)
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2012, 02:11:52 pm »
0

Isotropic is still up????  In all seriousness, as long as I can continue to play on isotropic I will continue to not make any sort of effort to switch.

It turns out the answer is "ingrained prejudice".  In response to this topic I've just given multiplayer Goko a whirl, and it's OK.

This is an interesting set of posts to come one shortly after the other!
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2012, 02:27:00 pm »
+7

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree.  But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game. 
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2012, 02:48:15 pm »
+2

The bug where people can somehow quit a game and it doesn't adversely affect their rating or credit me for a win is a huge turnoff.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2012, 03:23:40 pm »
+3

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2012, 03:39:03 pm »
+3

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.

What's so hilarious about it? My GF and I will hang out, we will both be right there, with all IRL dominion expansions, and yet usually choose to just play against each other on isotropic as opposed to with real cards. Why? There's no time spent taking out all the cards or putting them back. There's no time spent shuffling. There's far less downtime. When we play with Dark Ages now and I've successfully built an engine and she hasn't (or vice versa) and her turns are 5 seconds and my turns are 90 seconds every time, it gets boring for the other person. That doesn't happen to nearly the same extent online.

Dominion is especially the type of game that works well online, for many reasons, but two of the main ones are:

1) It has a lot of downtime IRL
2) Not every game is particularly interesting. IRL, if you have a game that ends up being uninteresting, you can either just quit in the middle or spend the next 20 - 40 minutes playing it through. Online, you get through the boring game in 5 - 10 minutes.

I much prefer playing online to playing with real cards (though I like playing with real cards too) and I don't really understand why that's funny.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 03:40:51 pm by Forge!!! »
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2012, 03:44:05 pm »
+4

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.

It can be reasonably called superior for certain values of "superior."

It's superior for a tournament setting.  Any reasonably competitive player would prefer to play a tournament on Iso, and any tournament director should prefer Iso, for two reasons.  First, it's much faster.  A single IRL Dominion game, including setup time, can take as much as 30 minutes or longer even for 2P; in the time it takes to unbox and set up one game of IRL Dominion, you can play two Iso games if they're fast boards, or one on a slow board.  Second, this speed allows for best-of-N formats, which are superior in determining the "better" player--ostensibly the intent of a tournament.

Iso is superior for people who want to study the game of Dominion--which is ostensibly the intent of this blog and forum.  Sure, you could log an IRL game to look at the log afterward, but it's going to be an order of magnitude harder than logging, say, a game of chess.

Iso is superior for those who want to play a lot of games, due to its speed.

But IRL Dominion is superior in other ways.  Iso is not exactly a wonderful place for actual social interaction; even chats during and after games tend to be quite perfunctory, even nonexistent.  (Goko will have this same problem, if not worse.)

IRL Dominion is also superior if you prefer to play a variety of games.  My gaming group gets together for about 4 hours every second Friday; maybe that means a game of Dominion, then one of Power Grid, then one of something new we haven't tried before, or whatever.  Iso is great for... Dominion only.

----

Given that this discussion forum is for people who like to play a lot of games, and like to analyze their (and others') play, it's not at all surprising that people hanging out here would feel that Iso is better than IRL Dominion.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2012, 04:15:28 pm »
+1

Point tracker and equalizing starting hands needed.  And sidebar for tracking turns / what's happened, rather than a pull-up menu I have to put back down.  Small annoyance: Moneylender doesn't automatically trash. 

It's mainly who plays.  Isotropic also makes my weak wifi less sad.  I like Roguelikes, so I'm also very partial to minimalism - I wish Goko's interface was... less lavish and more functional.  But it now appears to work well, for the most part. 

I'm impressed by Campaign.  I just got beat hard by Conquer Bot.  Are the strats coded in to be actually the close-to-optimal ones? 
Edit: Nvm, just had a bot ignore Chapel.
Edit2: Huh.  I love the campaign.  These are the kinds of mechanics I've wanted to practice, but are too dull for anyone to agree to practice with me.  And the bots are really good at their basics. 

Edit3:
There are two major style issues for Goko that I find really hurt me as a Dominion player. 

1. The sidebar which tracks each turn and
a) does not forget really far back turns, and so gives more information than is reasonable.
b) cannot be on 100% of the time.

2) There is no way I am aware to see what cards I have played this turn.  This is critical in a Goons game, for instance, or if I want to know the odds of drawing a Smithy with this village, or draw some terminals dead. 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:14:13 pm by axlemn »
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2012, 04:52:48 pm »
0

No text mode, no point counter, no veto mode.

So the problem is that it's more like actual Dominion. Gotcha.
i haven't played a single game of irl dominion after I found iso. to me the 'actual' non-variant dominion is considerably less enjoyable than the variant iso so awesomely offers me.

edit: or what others said better already!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 05:02:11 pm by Eevee »
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2012, 06:04:54 pm »
+4

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.
This is not surprising to me at all.  Often I find the 'basic' version of a program to be superior, because I get really irritated with unnecessary bells and whistles.

I still wish I could go back to Word 97, rather than the monstrosity that is the newest version of Microsoft Office, for example.

IRL Dominion is fun with your friends at a game night.  Actually holding the cards in your hand is a tactile pleasure that Iso can't replicate.  But Goko is just a poor imitation of the benefits you can get from real life, without capitalizing on the ways in which Dominion can be IMPROVED on the computer.

I'm sure some people prefer Goko.  I don't think they're lying to us or something. But I emphatically do not prefer Goko.  And maybe it was a smart business decision to appeal to new players who would be turned off by an Iso-style interface.  But they have to understand that it comes at the cost of seriously turning off people like me. 

You can't please everyone, of course.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2012, 06:31:16 pm »
+1

I still wish I could go back to Word 97, rather than the monstrosity that is the newest version of Microsoft Office, for example.

OMG yes.  I just use OpenOffice nowadays though.

Quote
Actually holding the cards in your hand is a tactile pleasure that Iso can't replicate.  But Goko is just a poor imitation of the benefits you can get from real life, without capitalizing on the ways in which Dominion can be IMPROVED on the computer.

There's definitely some of this.  It tries to replicate the "feel" without actually doing so.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2012, 06:53:53 pm »
+2

I find it harder to play the actual game on goko. Well I like to play really fast. Maybe too fast. But more games is better than fewer for me. And all the cool animations and things flying around get old fast so I play on very fast on goko. But then, it's so hard to follow what my opponent does. And the logs are very hard to read. And they aren't always on the screen. So overall, it's a less enjoyable experience.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2012, 08:33:14 pm »
+9

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.
And I find it hilarious that you are paying a company to essentially bug-test their unfinished software.

Glad we're all in good humour here.

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2012, 10:19:42 pm »
+1

I hate the interface.  That's about it.

For those who say 'it's more like IRL Dominion,' I agree. But IRL Dominion is the inferior version of the game.  And for those who say 'it's more appealing to the common fan,' I'm not sure I agree. But regardless, I'm not the common fan, and I happen to hate it.

I can't really imagine spending money to play it that way, even with Dominion being my favorite game.  We'll see if that changes once Iso finally goes, but...to me it's just a completely different (and far worse) game.

I find it hilarious that you find what is essentially bug-testing software to be superior to an actual finished product.
And I find it hilarious that you are paying a company to essentially bug-test their unfinished software.

Glad we're all in good humour here.

The only bug I've really seen in portions I've actually paid for is Band of Misfits being invisible.  And bugs exist even in completed products - just look at any Blizzard game: they get patches, patches and more patches.  Same with MineCraft.

This is not surprising to me at all.  Often I find the 'basic' version of a program to be superior, because I get really irritated with unnecessary bells and whistles.

I still wish I could go back to Word 97, rather than the monstrosity that is the newest version of Microsoft Office, for example.

If you were to play StarCraft, would you prefer it to just be a white background with little chess pieces moving across it, or would even that be too ostentatious for you?

Graphics are important for a commercial game.  It has to look nice.

Now, knowing that Goko is here to stay (its userbase continues to grow), and Iso will inevitably be shut down, wouldn't it be more constructive to post your ideas on their getsatisfaction, and try to steer the design into something you'd find at least palatable?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 10:24:34 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2012, 11:55:35 pm »
+1

This is not surprising to me at all.  Often I find the 'basic' version of a program to be superior, because I get really irritated with unnecessary bells and whistles.

I still wish I could go back to Word 97, rather than the monstrosity that is the newest version of Microsoft Office, for example.

If you were to play StarCraft, would you prefer it to just be a white background with little chess pieces moving across it, or would even that be too ostentatious for you?

Graphics are important for a commercial game.  It has to look nice.

Now, knowing that Goko is here to stay (its userbase continues to grow), and Iso will inevitably be shut down, wouldn't it be more constructive to post your ideas on their getsatisfaction, and try to steer the design into something you'd find at least palatable?
I don't play Starcraft, in part because I get very bored by games for which 'graphics are important.'

I like Dominion 99.9% because the mechanics of the game are great and 0.1% because the pictures are neat.  And even there, I have a lot more affection for the Isotropic pictures than the 'real' ones.  Goko makes the mechanics of the game WAY more cumbersome, thus eating substantially into my enjoyment of the game.

As for biting the bullet and making contributions to improving Goko, I don't know what to tell you. I have a basic dislike for the whole structure of the game they have built.  I don't have very many minor-level concerns (and I *did* post most of those back in the first Beta).  I just don't like the essence of their product.

Again, maybe my opinions will change once Isotropic is actually gone and I have no other way to play Dominion.  But I genuinely think I'll just...stop playing Dominion online rather than playing on Goko.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2012, 12:07:01 am »
0

I think that talking about which is "more similar to IRL" is a sort of a fools' game.

Both are similar in that the decisions you have to make, in-game, are the same as in an equivalent IRL game of Dominion.

But other than that, they both have very little similarities to IRL play. Goko has the card art, but other than that... Goko's attempts to make your hand be displayed like a little fanned-out hand of cards doesn't actually make it *play* like holding an IRL hand of cards. The interface is still pictures on a screen, just like iso. The details of that don't really make it more like IRL play no matter how much you fiddle with them. If you make pretty pictures at the expense of having some cards not be visible on-screen, well...
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2012, 01:07:05 am »
+1

I don't play Starcraft, in part because I get very bored by games for which 'graphics are important.'

Wow.  Never play Myst, then.

This is probably not really relevant to Dominion, but there is a lot to be said for games for which graphics are important - it creates an atmosphere that allows you to just be absorbed by the game.  Games like Skyrim or Amnesia work largely in part due to their graphics.  Hell, the graphics are sort of the whole point of Amnesia.  Graphics are half the point of the Myst games.  And the graphics, gameplay and music of both Braid and Shadow of the Colossus combine to create what could be considered real works of art.

And if I'm going to play a game on a computer, which has the capability to make a game look nice, I'd prefer it to look nice.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2012, 01:38:17 am »
+1

I don't play Starcraft, in part because I get very bored by games for which 'graphics are important.'

Wow.  Never play Myst, then.

This is probably not really relevant to Dominion, but there is a lot to be said for games for which graphics are important - it creates an atmosphere that allows you to just be absorbed by the game.  Games like Skyrim or Amnesia work largely in part due to their graphics.  Hell, the graphics are sort of the whole point of Amnesia.  Graphics are half the point of the Myst games.  And the graphics, gameplay and music of both Braid and Shadow of the Colossus combine to create what could be considered real works of art.

And if I'm going to play a game on a computer, which has the capability to make a game look nice, I'd prefer it to look nice.
I get that other people like graphics.  I'm just saying that I personally don't.  And that's why Goko annoys me.

Basically: if I'm going to play a game on a computer, which has the capability to automate repetitive tasks, massively speed up boring elements of the game, and present information in a clean and clear way, I'd prefer that it do that.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2012, 02:08:38 am »
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Graphics aren't that important to me. I enjoy 8-bit games just as much as the newfangled ones that are coming out today.

With that said, I do like that Goko cards look like real Dominion. That is a plus. However, animations and music, I can do without.
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