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Author Topic: Was this game over by turn 7?  (Read 2098 times)

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philosophyguy

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Was this game over by turn 7?
« on: September 08, 2011, 09:53:30 am »
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Kingdom: Bureaucrat, Cutpurse, Expand, Fortune Teller, Horse Traders, Mine, Mountebank, Smithy, Thief, and Witch (no Colony/Platinum)

My opponent goes first, gets 5/2, and opens Mountebank; I start 4/3 with Horse Traders/Silver.
By turn 7 he's hit twice with the Mountebank and once with a Witch, and I'm only drawing my Mountebank for the first time despite buying one on turn 3.
Is this purely a bad combination of shuffle luck and opening splits, or should I have played differently?

My thinking was, with no trashing, the Horse Traders would help me get to 5 early on and might also provide mild defense against the attacks. The first part worked, but my deck bloated too quickly for me to catch up.
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Fangz

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 10:11:10 am »
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Well, his hits were about average given the number of attack cards, and opening $5 on a witch/mountebank set is always going to be an advantage. I think you overbought terminals - 2 horsetraders, a witch and 2 mountebank, then a mine... that's way too many, remembering that drawing horse traders together with an attack terminal would be only equivalent to not having that horse trader at all, if you get attacked on that turn. Add to that the fact that witches in many ways work against mountebank (a heavily cursed opponent is more likely to just discard a curse to your attack).

Also, I'd have opened cutpurse. It's a nasty attack, and often equivalent in spending power to horse traders.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 10:14:20 am by Fangz »
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Geronimoo

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 10:23:37 am »
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He was starting player and had the $5 opening... Even if you play perfect it's an uphill battle. Your best defense was probably Smithy/Silver into a fast Witch and Golds. You'd still be a dog, but smaller... think chihuaha instead of Labrador.
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guided

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 11:21:32 am »
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It's already been pretty much said, but to answer your question... No, this game wasn't over by turn 7, it was over by turn 1:
My opponent goes first, gets 5/2, and opens Mountebank

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DG

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 12:27:35 pm »
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That's a rough set to play against the 5/2. You'll be able to buy a few cards cost 5 but you don't need that many. Gold is hard to get after that start. Expands will be harder to get and won't even make much difference. I'd suggest trying to get a couple of mountebanks, a few horse traders, and try to run out the duchies, curses, and estates. Opponents can sometimes sleep a little and let you sneak wins on duchies, not realising that their own deck is better but perhaps not good enough to buy many provinces. The mountebank damage can also even out after a while since the player with the worse start can discard more curses later.
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Kirian

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 05:48:38 pm »
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As guided says, the game was over in the opening.  It's polite to continue playing the game, but if I had limited play time and my opponent buys a Mountebank in the opening against my 3/4, I'll gg and resign.

I'd still like to see a selection for "identical starts" in the matching system on isotropic.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 06:04:04 pm »
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As guided says, the game was over in the opening.  It's polite to continue playing the game, but if I had limited play time and my opponent buys a Mountebank in the opening against my 3/4, I'll gg and resign.

I'd still like to see a selection for "identical starts" in the matching system on isotropic.
... there is.
And it's not over at that point, just very difficult. But if the mountebank misses the reshuffle, you aren't that far behind.
And I want to point out that witch is probably better here.

Epoch

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 06:10:50 pm »
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... there is.
And it's not over at that point, just very difficult. But if the mountebank misses the reshuffle, you aren't that far behind.
And I want to point out that witch is probably better here.

Yeah, I wish that my opponent this morning had gg'd when I opened Witch on 5/2 when they had 3/4.  Witch missed turns 3/4, wherein they bought a Witch, and then went to the very bottom of the deck on the next shuffle: I'd played it twice by turn 10, while they'd played their turn 4 Witch at least as much.  Not exactly game-winning.
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Anon79

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 01:47:49 am »
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And I want to point out that witch is probably better here.
As an opening 5/2, or as a defence against an opponent who opened 5/2 Mountebank?
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Geronimoo

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 05:35:05 am »
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WW probably means it's better to buy Witch on this particular board because it lacks engine possibilites.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 08:55:48 am »
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Well I mean that witch is generally better when matched up against mountebank in BM-style decks, at least while there are curses left, so basically yes, what Geronimoo said. Defending when you're already far behind in the curse race, mountebank becomes more attractive, as the effect is better if they can't discard curses to moat, which is basically going to happen less if there aren't many curses left to give.

Kirian

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 02:35:13 pm »
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As guided says, the game was over in the opening.  It's polite to continue playing the game, but if I had limited play time and my opponent buys a Mountebank in the opening against my 3/4, I'll gg and resign.

I'd still like to see a selection for "identical starts" in the matching system on isotropic.
... there is.

On automatch?

Quote
And it's not over at that point, just very difficult. But if the mountebank misses the reshuffle, you aren't that far behind.
And I want to point out that witch is probably better here.

Huh.  Simulator bears this out too.  I would not have guessed that.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Was this game over by turn 7?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 12:58:45 am »
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My opponent goes first, gets 5/2, and opens Mountebank

it isn't showing up in my game logs anywhere that i can see but..

i had a game a couple days ago where i opened with 5 copper and bought a witch.  my opponent played 3 coppers turn 1 and then resigned.  it might not have been because of the open, but i thought it was amusing/relevant.
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momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.
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