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Author Topic: Discard Attacks  (Read 5904 times)

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rinkworks

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Discard Attacks
« on: September 07, 2011, 09:37:15 am »
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I've been trying to think of a variant way to do a discard attack, perhaps one that differs in strength from, for example, Militia and Ghost Ship.  The trouble is that "discard to 4 cards" is often harmless, and "discard to 2 cards" is too brutal.  So I was stuck.

My brother came up with a really intriguing idea, though, which uses an Envoy-esque mechanism.  It goes like this:

Assassin
$5 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each player with 4 or more cards in his hand reveals all cards in his hand except for one of his own choosing.  You choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard.

The idea is that you're going to lose your second-best card, assuming the attacker makes the perfect decision, which, since one card is unknown, may not always be clear.

Initially, we thought it would be somewhat comparable to Militia and priced it at $4.  But it's so much more powerful than Militia.  The "with 4 or more cards" clause keeps it from getting out of hand with KC or a Village chain, while still letting you play it twice.  This might actually still be too strong -- it might have to be "with 5 or more cards" -- but I'm still playtesting.

What's interesting here is that both decisions -- the attacker's decision of what card to discard, and the defender's decision of what card to keep -- are really interesting ones.  I like the gameplay for the attacker better than with Envoy.  With Envoy, often the decision is too trivial if the player of Envoy is out of actions.  If not, it can be a toss-up at times, because the player still probably has several cards in his hand.  So does he have a Village to go with the several terminals Envoy drew?  Or terminals to go with the Villages he drew?  No way to know, but with a hand of 3 or 4 unknown cards, he probably has wiggle room to work with whatever your decision is.

With just one card in the player's hand unrevealed, making these kinds of guesses can be more calculated.  If he reveals several terminals, did he save a Village, knowing he'd be able to play two of the remaining ones?  If so, get rid of the best terminal.  Or did he reveal his very best terminal and doesn't intend to use the revealed ones?  If so, get rid of a treasure.  It's not a huge difference from Envoy, but the unknown information is smaller and therefore more possible for the opponent to try to make an educated guess about.

Tangential question:  What factors go into a decision about whether the player bonus should be "+2 Cards" or "+$2" or something else?  Seems like a +card and a +coin are pretty comparable to each other, their relative strength varying from board to board and game stage to game stage.  So is that choice fairly arbitrary, or is there a more significant reason than simple variety that Witch has one and Mountebank the other?
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Fangz

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 10:45:27 am »
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This is like my Bribe suggestion, earlier. It's probably a super nasty attack - it's generally enough to deny the opponent a province or a colony whenever used. I feel like the +2 cards is too good though. As a lone attack bought early, this can absolutely lock down an opponent, and to be able to do this and draw a few coins to buy stuff as well is too strong. Absolutely being able to stack them would be terrible. Play with three or more players, and the third player is completely screwed.

+2 cards is generally superior to +2 coins for attack cards, IMHO. +2 cards means you accelerate the deck cycling, meaning you can play the card significantly more often. You lose a coin or so now and then, but that's not *that* bad. Mountebank would be much stronger as a +2 card: you'd be able to play it quickly getting in several attacks before the opponent reshuffles to draw curses to protect himself.

Another possibility is a lookout style +1 action: you knock out one of their cards, but the price you pay is wasting a card from your hand.
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Thanar

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 12:09:22 pm »
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Another variation to consider would be to allow the attacked player to draw a card after the attack. For example,

Tree Pruner
$4 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each player with 4 or more cards in his hand reveals all cards in his hand except for one of his own choosing.  You choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard. He then draws one card.

Or the card could be swapped with a card from your own hand:

Cardsharp
$5 - Action/Attack
Each player with 4 or more cards in his hand reveals all cards in his hand except for one of his own choosing.  You choose one of the revealed cards that is not a victory card and exchange it with a card from your hand.

This last one is quite situational, and would be more powerful for those who are behind in deck quality.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 12:20:25 pm »
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Possession + Masquerade needs to cost a lot more than $5...
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Julle

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 12:22:11 pm »
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...
Tree Pruner
$4 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each player with 4 or more cards in his hand reveals all cards in his hand except for one of his own choosing.  You choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard. He then draws one card.
...


My idea for this:

Tree Pruner
$4 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other players draws 1 card.
Each player (including you) reveals his hand.  You choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard.

Stronger attack part but little harm for you too.
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kazztawdal

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 12:58:04 pm »
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How about something simpler:

Ransack
$4 - Action/Attack

Each other player discards one card.
Then, each other player with less than 3 cards in his hand draws until he has 3 cards in his hand.


--

debating between that version and this:

Each other player discards one card.
Then, each other player with less than 3 cards in his hand draws one card.

--

the second version is more ferocious if something, ie Torturer, empties your hand.  that might be a $5 card.

a wussy version would allow your opponent to draw first, then choose his discard.
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biopower

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 08:52:25 pm »
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My idea for this:

Tree Pruner
$4 - Action/Attack
+2 Cards
Each other players draws 1 card.
Each player (including you) reveals his hand.  You choose one of the revealed cards for him to discard.

Stronger attack part but little harm for you too.

It doesn't really directly harm you: Revealing your own hand won't really affect you much on your own turn, and the only case I can think of where it would be bad is in Contraband games.
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danshep

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Re: Discard Attacks
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 09:56:10 pm »
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My reading of Tree Pruner would be that the attacker would also be discarding a card.

Which isn't that much of a draw-back, considering they just drew two cards, so it's sort of like a weird warehouse.
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