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GendoIkari

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Ascension
« on: December 15, 2012, 01:42:37 am »
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Ok, so I played the iPad app a few times; here's some thoughts.

As a whole, it's fun. More like Thunderstone than Dominion, I'd say. The ability to play your entire hand every turn annoys me. No terminal collision? No over-buying villages without terminals? Just feels like something's missing. Same goes for unlimited buys.

Howver, there is more of a strategy in playing cards in the right order than in Dominion. Most hands of Dominion, just make sure you play non-terminals before terminals, and you're good. Sure there's plenty exceptions, but as a whole that's how it goes. Ascension has lots of situations where, even though you can legally just dump down your whole hand (like treasure cards), you have to think about what you might want to keep in hand for stuff to discard or trash.

Also, I like the decisions you have to make about the order to do other stuff. You have 3 money and 3 power. There's a 1-cost hero, and a 1-power monster out there. Do you kill the monster, hoping that it will reveal something better to buy with your 3 money? Or do you buy the hero, hoping it will reveal something better to kill with your 3 power? Of course, the right answer will be luck-based, but what's better for your deck?

So there's definitely interesting decisions to make. But the real genius of Dominion for me is that the cards that win you the game are the same cards that suck to have in your deck (victory cards). Ascension is completely lacking in this, with about half your points coming from Monument-type vp chip cards and the other half coming from action-victory cards that you want in your deck anyway.

Oh, also the player interaction sucks. Why no Militia, why no Witch? All attacks are on-gain type, one-shot deals. And they don't make as much sense as Militia.

All in all, a good game. But it's not about to replace Dominion for me.
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Insomniac

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 02:40:37 pm »
+1

I like ascension but it doesn't hit my table very often as I'd rather pull out Dominion. But the player interaction in ascension is attempting to control the middle row. Theres 3 generic deck archetypes, Fight/Money/Mix if your opponent is fight you try and stop fight from being in the middle, money? try and get the big expensives away, and if they're mixed you can leave the bigger stuff (hopefully your Fight/Money) and try and get the middle ish stuff out of the way as the Mix tends to be more comboey (wants to buy card draw, trashers, etc) but tends to not hit the high end as frequently.

Also Storm of Souls on its own is a far better game then either Chronicle, Return of the Fallen, or Chronicle mixed with Return (all 3 together is awful)
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Kirian

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 04:15:24 pm »
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I personally find Ascension (and Thunderstone) a bit too random to really keep them in my play rotation.  In addition, the interesting decisions of Dominion are almost completely missing, as Gendo states: no useless cards in your deck, no limit on what you can do with cards that can be played.  I can't think of any reason not to play out your hand every turn, unless you already have enough to buy everything you want and your last action would cause you to draw something potentially useful next turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 07:33:03 pm »
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I personally find Ascension (and Thunderstone) a bit too random to really keep them in my play rotation.  In addition, the interesting decisions of Dominion are almost completely missing, as Gendo states: no useless cards in your deck, no limit on what you can do with cards that can be played.  I can't think of any reason not to play out your hand every turn, unless you already have enough to buy everything you want and your last action would cause you to draw something potentially useful next turn.

So far the only times I haven't played my entire hand every turn have been leaving a mandatory trasher in hand after having trimmed away the starting cards.
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Synthesizer

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2012, 04:45:16 am »
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Apart from both being deckbuilding games, Ascension and Dominion are a world of difference. I love both; I think Ascension is more fun with 2p while I prefer Dominion with >2p, although I have yet to try Ascensions 2v2 mode, which supposedly fixes a lot of the gripes I have with >2p Ascension.

The player interaction in Dominion is mainly through attacks, which you can see coming from before the game starts and you can (and should) plan for that. Interaction through the "marketplace" is very limited - the PPR and perhaps leaving a pile at 2 or 3 cards to prevent a 3-pile ending. Other than that, it's pretty much a racing game, find the most efficient route to collecting VP while simultaneously ending the game. Or in other words: design what you want to do, taking into account the possible actions of your opponent(s), then everybody builds his design and we will see who hits the finish line first. I find that if I have chosen the wrong strategy or just have really bad luck, I can only catch up if the opponent has made a (number of) mistake(s) as well. (I can't do anything my opponent couldn't have seen before the game has even started; and he could have done it himself)

The player interaction in Ascension is mainly through the marketplace, which is variable and unplannable; and consists mainly of allowing/denying cards to your opponent. Attacks are as unplannable as everything else and in addition also a bit weak. It plays out much more like a boxing or football match - you do something, the opponent responds, you respond to that response and so on. If I make a bad decision or have bad luck somewhere in the game, I can adapt to try to turn things around. The analog would be that we are both on the same train, we both have a speed control for the train, and stuff swings by as we go along and we each have to make the best of what is thrown at us.

As for the actual cardplay - I find both games have equally meaningful decisions in that area. It's not like you are often not going to buy anything with a $6 hand in Dominion either - it's just the decision between gold and $5 action that can be interesting. That sort of stuff is also in Ascension - buy what's obviously reasonable, buy something cheap just to rotate new stuff into the marketplace, or not buy something from the marketplace to prevent new goods rotating in for your opponent. Also, the always availables in Ascension are about as good or bad as silver is in Dominion - that stuff helps but can also really get in the way. I very often let 2 or 3 runes unspent when I see nothing good/affordable in the marketplace and I also don't feel like I would improve my deck with any of the always availables (and indeed, in Dominion you sometimes dump a $3 hand straight in the discard for the same reason). I also sometimes NOT play the banish-from-the-center-row cards when I don't see anything of value for my opponent.


In summary, if you think you will be getting Dominion, you will have a bad time playing. Then again, the same can be said about Carcassonne, Settlers and, well, anything that's not Dominion.

--------------

As for the actual iOS app - it's awesome. It's as awesome as Isotropic is for Dominion, only prettier and with some (not so smart) AI. Only no in-game proper matchmaking. oh well.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 07:23:18 am »
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As for the actual iOS app - it's awesome. It's as awesome as Isotropic is for Dominion, only prettier and with some (not so smart) AI. Only no in-game proper matchmaking. oh well.

I love the ios app, but if I played ascension as seriously as I do dominion, I would have many of the same bones to pick:

1. No matchmaking
2. No in game chat
3. Have to press a separate button to see what my opponent did on their turn
4. no leaderboards

etc. etc.
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Re: Ascension
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 08:39:31 am »
+2

As for the actual iOS app - it's awesome. It's as awesome as Isotropic is for Dominion, only prettier and with some (not so smart) AI. Only no in-game proper matchmaking. oh well.

I love the ios app, but if I played ascension as seriously as I do dominion, I would have many of the same bones to pick:

1. No matchmaking
2. No in game chat
3. Have to press a separate button to see what my opponent did on their turn
4. no leaderboards

etc. etc.

BUT HOW ARE THE AVATARS?!?
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clb

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2012, 09:11:08 am »
+1

As for the actual iOS app - it's awesome. It's as awesome as Isotropic is for Dominion, only prettier and with some (not so smart) AI. Only no in-game proper matchmaking. oh well.

I love the ios app, but if I played ascension as seriously as I do dominion, I would have many of the same bones to pick:

1. No matchmaking
2. No in game chat
3. Have to press a separate button to see what my opponent did on their turn
4. no leaderboards

etc. etc.

BUT HOW ARE THE AVATARS?!?
Lightyears better than the androgynous lumps of clay in Goko. I think all of the avatars come from card art.
Clearly, Ascension is better than Dominion.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 10:46:57 am »
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So I'm getting Ascension in a math trade. I'm also getting the Return of the Fallen expansion and the Rat King promo card. I hadn't been interested in buying the game, but I feel better with getting it in a trade. And the guy kept his cards sleeved, so that'll be nice.

Any suggestions on breaking out the game? Just go random with what I have? Should I use any particular sets? I never played the physical game before.
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Insomniac

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 12:09:21 pm »
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So I'm getting Ascension in a math trade. I'm also getting the Return of the Fallen expansion and the Rat King promo card. I hadn't been interested in buying the game, but I feel better with getting it in a trade. And the guy kept his cards sleeved, so that'll be nice.

Any suggestions on breaking out the game? Just go random with what I have? Should I use any particular sets? I never played the physical game before.

The base set is better with ROTf mixed in. But I don't mix SOS or immortal heroes in with ROTf or cotg I keep them mixed together seperately.

(My recommendation assuming your getting base and ROTf is to mix em together)
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Kuildeous

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:07 pm »
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The base set is better with ROTf mixed in. But I don't mix SOS or immortal heroes in with ROTf or cotg I keep them mixed together seperately.

(My recommendation assuming your getting base and ROTf is to mix em together)

Interesting. So the other expansions should be treated as separate components?

Not at all like Dominion or Race for the Galaxy where you just shuffle in the new cards? If I like the game enough to buy expansions, I should keep them all separate and choose which ones to incorporate?

I guess in that regard, it's kind of like the Big Box of Carcassonne or Alhambra. You could play with all the expansions mixed in, but it may be more fun to pick a small portion of them.

Do I have that interpretation correct? I guess I'm glad I'm only getting one expansion. Since the game's been out for a while, I should be able to get the expansions on the cheap.
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Insomniac

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 02:10:28 pm »
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The base set is better with ROTf mixed in. But I don't mix SOS or immortal heroes in with ROTf or cotg I keep them mixed together seperately.

(My recommendation assuming your getting base and ROTf is to mix em together)

Interesting. So the other expansions should be treated as separate components?

Not at all like Dominion or Race for the Galaxy where you just shuffle in the new cards? If I like the game enough to buy expansions, I should keep them all separate and choose which ones to incorporate?

I guess in that regard, it's kind of like the Big Box of Carcassonne or Alhambra. You could play with all the expansions mixed in, but it may be more fun to pick a small portion of them.

Do I have that interpretation correct? I guess I'm glad I'm only getting one expansion. Since the game's been out for a while, I should be able to get the expansions on the cheap.

Well no it's like. There is the base game and 3 expansions. You can definetly mix them all together if you want. But I'll explain a bit here.

Base (Chronicle of the Godslayer [CoTG]) - Good introduction to the game Mechana (have continuous effects and) are strong Fight is strong
Return of The Fallen (ROTF) - Nice expansion Mechana still have continuous effects and are still strong but not as much, Fight gets weaker to be on par with money.

The above two sets were designed to be similar and play nicely together

Storm of Souls (SoS) - By far my favourite verison so far, fight is a not strengthened but trophies make the fight strategy have more decisions and make it more fun to play the fight strategy. Mechana are weakened to be still good but not op, (have entering play effects as opposed to contiuous effects and ways to make them leave play for a bonus as well)

Immortal Heroes (IH) - It's alright, it adds onto the SoS mechanics I haven't played it that much yet. I suspect it makes SoS more fun. The Soul Gems are sort of interesting but add even more luck to the game.


So now for why I don't mix them together. Disclaimer: I HAVE played with them all mixed together before. The mechana changing how it plays between CoTG/ROTF & SoS/IH makes it too hard to get a viable mechana strategy working which is too limiting in the way you have to play.

Now everyone here knows that Ascension is a fairly random game. The cards available change every turn and are limited in quantity etc. If you play just a base game you're looking at 80 Cards that can appear in the center row (roughly 50ish unique) and a small expansion (RoTF/IH) adds 70 cards or (roughly 40 unique)

so if you're playing just a big set or just a small set, you can actually have a bit of a strategy as you can anticipate whats going to come up and buy cards that manipulate the center row (banish from the center row) to hurt your opponents strategy or to dig for something you need. With 150 cards this is still possible. Hit 230 or 220 though and it becomes basically impossible to have any strategy or manipulate the center row to any luck.
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Insomniac

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 02:11:22 pm »
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Addendum: Since I got SoS I pretty much don't play CoTG/RoTF I stick to SoS or now SoS/IH
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percycpcpc

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 03:01:23 am »
+1

Hi All,
I am new to this forum and just wanna to add some new concept on Ascension.
I agree this game is quite heavy on luck.
Also I agree IPAD version is great  :)

However what make ascension a great game would be it's team play mode.
When you go on a 2v2 with your friends, you can find the true difference between Ascension and Dominion.


Here will be the offical rules from Justin:

Number of Players: 4 (in teams of 2)
Rules:
Teammates should sit across from each other.
Your teammate is not harmed by any monsters you defeat (e.g. if you kill a Corrosive Widow, your teammate does not have to lose a construct)
You may spend one additional rune when you acquire a card to add that card to your teammate's deck instead of yours.
At the end of the game, combine your honor total with your teammate to determine the winner.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/568460/official-ascension-variant-2v2-team-play

This will change your mind after you play it once.
I PROMISE!  :P
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Lekkit

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 03:56:20 am »
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percy, now I feel like I have to get the physical game. I love team games! And I really like Ascension.
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percycpcpc

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 05:27:36 am »
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There are also new rules in the Chinese rule book translated by my friend to me!

There is a DOTA variant for 2v2 or 3v3 in Ascension in that rulebook.

I will try to type it and put it here, it makes ascension totally another game with more strategy and cooperation.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 10:47:04 am »
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I am intrigued by the team play. We've only played four games of it, so we're still getting the hang of the cards. Knowing how they interact with each other will help us nail down team play.

I can definitely see the dichotomy of luck vs. skill. I've seen several Dominion players claim they prefer Dominion to Ascension. I think I still prefer Dominion. My wife, however, expressed that she thinks she likes Ascension better. This may make game days a little more interesting.
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percycpcpc

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Re: Ascension
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 08:43:29 pm »
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Hi Kuildeous, I can know the feel.
As you have mention, they are dominions player and Ascension is not a replacement for dominion.
Ascension has its own mech which makes the game different from dominion.
It increase the uncertain factor, which some players might not like it.
This will be just like you prefer to play Chess or Settler, one has random factor, one has none.

Ascension force players facing different situations.
It is not a really fair game as it includes quite a bit of luck.
However, dominion has it flaw also.
It limits the possibility of the game, it is a game of formula after the set has form.
This makes to game fall onto who starts first for the top players. (also a bit of luck, which is a must for most DBG) :-\

I would say Ascension allows more stylish deck and Dominion is more like a fair duel.
I enjoy both game as I am heavily addicted to DBG  :D
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