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Author Topic: Politics and Bargaining  (Read 11111 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Politics and Bargaining
« on: December 13, 2012, 08:46:10 am »
+1

Alice, Bob and Chris are playing a game of Dominion.

Alice, while possessing Bob, makes him play Masquerade. She says to Chris, "I'll make Bob pass you a Province if you pass me a Duchy."

Is this kind of bargaining legal?
Is it against the spirit of the game?
Would you have a problem with it if it came up in a casual game?
What about a Tournament game?
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ipofanes

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 08:55:05 am »
0

Is this kind of bargaining legal?
Absolutely.
Quote
Is it against the spirit of the game?
Absolutely.
Quote
Would you have a problem with it if it came up in a casual game?
I'd think I'd throw a fake tantrum if I was Bob.
Quote
What about a Tournament game?
Never played tournaments.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 09:01:05 am »
0

Quote
Would you have a problem with it if it came up in a casual game?
I'd think I'd throw a fake tantrum if I was Bob.

Bob's probably on the verge of a tantrum anyway if he's being Possessed. Would you do it if the situation arose?
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Davio

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 09:09:20 am »
+1

I think these "kingmaker" conundrums are not that big of deal. I mean, you could decide not to reveal Moat and have the game end on Curses and that would be political too.

In tournaments, it's up to the judge to decide whether this is collusion. If I were a judge and I would see this, I would warn both players and ban them if they wouldn't listen.

On the other hand, if I were Chris, I would agree and pass a Curse/Copper.  ;D
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 09:16:40 am »
0

I think these "kingmaker" conundrums are not that big of deal. I mean, you could decide not to reveal Moat and have the game end on Curses and that would be political too.

In tournaments, it's up to the judge to decide whether this is collusion. If I were a judge and I would see this, I would warn both players and ban them if they wouldn't listen.

The problem with that is, where do you draw the line? Would you ban people from Ambassadoring a Province when someone has a Lighthouse out? Like you say, there are many ways to get this sort of situation. What would you ban and what wouldn't you?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2012, 09:36:27 am »
+1

The problem with that is, where do you draw the line? Would you ban people from Ambassadoring a Province when someone has a Lighthouse out? Like you say, there are many ways to get this sort of situation. What would you ban and what wouldn't you?

I think if you're banning things, what you have to ban is the communication. You can't ban (legal) game actions in and of themselves. Edge cases everywhere, man.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if it's in a tournament, you play to win, and in a more than two player environment, that can mean working together with an 'opponent', even temporarily. The only solid way to fix that is to either play 2 player, or play teams. Plus, deals like this are unenforceable, so if you agree to this scheme, and then you don't get your promised Duchy, well, then sucks to be you.

Collusion before a game begins sits less well with me, but I don't see any way of preventing two players in a three player game from mutually taking actions that benefit them both at the expense of the third player. I guess you could ban talking?


EDIT: I forgot, the above is all assuming you're in a tournament. Otherwise, you go by your group's established social contract. If your group's contract doesn't cover situations like this, don't worry; it will shortly.
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Davio

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 09:42:44 am »
0

Meh, it's hard to jot down a clear rule about this, but I would just look at whether the "perpetrator" gains any strategic advantage by doing what he does. I mean, if Bob Ambassadors a Province which lets him win the game, but lets Chris come second as opposed to Alice with her Lighthouse, I won't blame Bob, nor Chris.

So it very much depends on the situation, I would err on the side of caution though, because I don't want to inadvertently influence the game too much. If someone does something silly because he just isn't that good at the game and it happens to help somebody else tremendously, that's just the way it is.

It's like Puerto Rico where it's a big advantage to sit to the left of a newbie.

But you also have to look at the type of tournament. If it's the most official and prestigious Dominion tournament this side of the universe, then yeah, no communication is probably the only solution. If it's something for laughs and giggles at your local club, then just let it be, man.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 09:43:51 am »
0

On the other hand, if I were Chris, I would agree and pass a Curse/Copper.  ;D

Well there's that, and if you're playing cut-throat that's actually a really strategic decision: do you take one really good deal and give up the chance for any more, or do you take a good deal and hope more good deals come? At what point do you stop taking the good deals and take the really good deal?

It could be interesting bartering: "I don't have any Duchies this turn." "What about Golds?" "Nah I need my Gold this turn. I can give you a Baron." "Why would I want a Baron for? Got no Estates, remember?"
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 10:29:21 am »
+4

It could be interesting bartering: "I don't have any Duchies this turn." "What about Golds?" "Nah I need my Gold this turn. I can give you a Baron." "Why would I want a Baron for? Got no Estates, remember?"

All right, I'm going home tonight to write Catan: The Deckbuilding Game.
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Kirian

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 11:22:14 am »
+1

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the rules imply this is not legal, much as they imply that taking notes is not legal.  House rule it in if you want--I don't think the situation is going to come up much--but I think this would not be tournament legal.
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DWetzel

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 02:41:05 pm »
0

Alice, Bob and Chris are playing a game of Dominion.

Alice, while possessing Bob, makes him play Masquerade. She says to Chris, "I'll make Bob pass you a Province if you pass me a Duchy."

Is this kind of bargaining legal?
Is it against the spirit of the game?
Would you have a problem with it if it came up in a casual game?
What about a Tournament game?

As long as Chris can lie and say "sure, I'll pass you a Duchy" and then pass a Curse instead, since it's all simultaneous. 
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zahlman

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 08:41:00 pm »
0

I've only ever heard of Dominion tournaments being played with two-player games.

Or did you mean the Action card? :)
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loppo

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 02:45:21 am »
+1

IRL tournaments are usually 3/4 player tournamnets. so this situation might come up eventually.
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Robz888

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2012, 12:06:59 pm »
+3

I don't think this violates the rules, unless you're playing in a tournament that specifically prohibits this.

Of course, you can agree to pass one thing, but pass another instead. There's no enforcement of the agreement you made. So, I would definitely lie about what I was going to pass. That's what you should do, I think, if you want to win. Which makes this kind of agreement probably pretty difficult to pull of in reality, since everyone has incentive to lie.
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ednever

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2012, 12:21:04 pm »
+2

Related question (that may provide some insight, and comes up way more commonly):

You are in a three-player game. One player plays Contraband. Player to his right (if I remember correctly) chooses a card to ban. Can the player to his left make a recommendation before the player on the right makes a decision?

I always thought the answer was "yes"
(But someone who is not one of the three players outside the game can NOT make a recommendation)

However when the event came up at US Nationals, Jay specifically told us that we could NOT do that (although he let the first time it happened go by, but he said not to do it again)


That suggests table talk is basically not allowed for these type of decisions.

One other note:
What would happen in that original case if the player who was supposed to pass a Duchy just didn't do it (or the person passing the province didn't)? I don't think there is any recourse. In tournament play, that is likely the right choice, since there is unlikely to be another case where it will come up again during the game (or even during the tournament).

Prisoner's Dilemma, no?

Ed
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Robz888

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 12:32:40 pm »
+1

I definitely think the other player could advise you on what to Contraband. In fact, when this comes up in Isotropic, I often type in the chat window about what should be prohibited.

You could have a house rule that no one may advise anyone else on their strategy, but I certainly wouldn't construe the basic rules to suggest that the game has to be played in strategic silence.
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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 12:34:18 pm »
+1

I don't think this violates the rules, unless you're playing in a tournament that specifically prohibits this.

Of course, you can agree to pass one thing, but pass another instead. There's no enforcement of the agreement you made. So, I would definitely lie about what I was going to pass. That's what you should do, I think, if you want to win. Which makes this kind of agreement probably pretty difficult to pull of in reality, since everyone has incentive to lie.

WHAT?!?!?  Are you trying to imply that this isn't a situation that we have to explicitly worry about because people's self-interested behavior already fixes this problem without any top-down intervention from the powers-that-be?!?!?

That's crazy!  Heresy!  Perish the thought.  Definitely can't be true, especially as a general way of looking at human behavior in other contexts.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 12:42:29 pm by () | (_) ^/ »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 02:48:36 pm »
0

Are the rules of Dominion permissive, or restrictive? Do they say "You may play action cards during your Action Phase", or do they say "You may not play action cards during your Buy Phase, or your Clean-up Phase, or during other players' turns"?
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Kirian

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 04:49:08 pm »
0

Are the rules of Dominion permissive, or restrictive? Do they say "You may play action cards during your Action Phase", or do they say "You may not play action cards during your Buy Phase, or your Clean-up Phase, or during other players' turns"?

In this specific case, both:

"Generally, a player can only play Action cards during the Action phase of his turn. However, Reaction cards are an exception to this rule as they can be used at other times."

That said, the rules are generally interpreted as restrictive in the sense that only things written in the rules are allowed.  This has come up multiple times when it comes to point counting.  Sure, the rules don't say you can't sit there with a sheet of paper and count points as you play.  The rules also don't say you can't play a card face-down and claim it's a Village, or that you can't look at the other players' hands.  But I know of no other card games that allow any of those unless it's specifically stated in the rules (Bullshit, for playing face-down; 3-5-7 poker, for seeing other players' hands), or overruled by a specific card (e.g., Possession for seeing another player's hand, and I'm sure there's at least one in Magic).

Similarly, most games don't allow table talk or politics unless specifically allowed in the rules--even Intrigue (not the Dominion expansion), which is all about bribing your opponents and convincing them not to screw you over, has specific rules for table talk.

In other words, plenty of rules are implied by convention, including those against bargaining for points.  More stringently, the game designer has stated that Dominion is designed to be as free of politics as possible, which also implies that bargaining during a Masquerade play is not allowed.

Now, again, what you do at home may be different, so long as the other players agree.  But in tournament play, bargaining over Possessed Masquerades, giving "advice" on Contraband or Possession, giving or asking for strategy advice, are not allowed by the rules as written, and therefore are not allowed during play.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 05:39:34 pm »
0

That said, the rules are generally interpreted as restrictive in the sense that only things written in the rules are allowed.

Pedantry: I think you're inverting the meanings I'm using; a permissive ruleset would tell you what things you're permitted to do; a restrictive one would tell you which things you aren't allowed to do.

Actual response: I feel that the answer to the "point counter" debate should be the same as the answer to "table talk" -- either the rules don't say you can't, so you can, or the tules don't say you can, so you can't.
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Kirian

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 11:56:21 pm »
0

That said, the rules are generally interpreted as restrictive in the sense that only things written in the rules are allowed.

Pedantry: I think you're inverting the meanings I'm using; a permissive ruleset would tell you what things you're permitted to do; a restrictive one would tell you which things you aren't allowed to do.

Actual response: I feel that the answer to the "point counter" debate should be the same as the answer to "table talk" -- either the rules don't say you can't, so you can, or the tules don't say you can, so you can't.

Ah, yes, I was thinking of things the other way around.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 06:27:37 am »
+1

Now, again, what you do at home may be different, so long as the other players agree.  But in tournament play, bargaining over Possessed Masquerades, giving "advice" on Contraband or Possession, giving or asking for strategy advice, are not allowed by the rules as written, and therefore are not allowed during play.

Yeah, I don't know. As far as I know the rules don't mention any communication between players. I'm sure you're not meant to assume that all communication is banned? Is it against the official rules to give tips to new players throughout the game?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 12:58:21 pm »
+1

Now, again, what you do at home may be different, so long as the other players agree.  But in tournament play, bargaining over Possessed Masquerades, giving "advice" on Contraband or Possession, giving or asking for strategy advice, are not allowed by the rules as written, and therefore are not allowed during play.

Yeah, I don't know. As far as I know the rules don't mention any communication between players. I'm sure you're not meant to assume that all communication is banned? Is it against the official rules to give tips to new players throughout the game?
Yes, anything game-related that is not allowed in the rules is de facto prohibited. Technically this means giving advice, too, but you know, in a casual setting, you can do whatever you want.
I would actually be pretty upset if anyone gave advice to a newbie opponent of mine in a serious tournament - let them play for themselves, or casually.

Davio

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2012, 05:21:09 am »
0

What?

When someone has $1 to spend, I can't look all snug and say "Hey, you can always buy a Curse!" (Yeah, I'm not mentioning Copper) And no Bridges or Highways or Quarries, you pedantics! Shoo, shoo!

I always believe that strategic advice should be limited, but un-strategic advice: The more, the better!
Depends on the setting of course.

Usually with beginners I go over all the options and explain that buying money is never really bad, but that's it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Politics and Bargaining
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 07:50:37 am »
+3

Depends on the setting of course.
This.
And if you're playing the game on a huge sheet of plywood....

Depends on the board.  8)
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