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Author Topic: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.  (Read 3649 times)

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Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« on: December 12, 2012, 09:11:41 pm »
+2

Looking to hear thoughts on using Stash in an IGG game IN THE GENERAL CASE.

(Played one today where there were no amazing IGG enablers on the board.  Nor amazing Stash enablers (i.e. enhanced cycling).  I bought Stashes for the first four times hitting $5, then followed Province > IGG > Duchy > Silver with more than 1 shuffle left > Estate.  I lost the curse split 7/3.  I won by 1 point.)

Please don't say "depends on the kingdom."  I mean, you can, but you aren't going to be adding anything substantive to this, admittedly, very un-specific topic.

Thoughts?

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DG

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 09:26:29 pm »
+2

Simulator puts it at 93%-6%. The stashes get you two provinces but the igg player wins the curse split about 9-1 and can buy provinces with igg hands, uncluttered by curses.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 09:27:34 pm »
+1

I don't see any reason to go for Stash if an IGG rush is plausible (which is the default, if we're avoiding edge cases).  Your decks tend to get so bloated yeah still hit the requisite $5 with enough regularity.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 09:28:48 pm »
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Simulator puts it at 93%-6%. The stashes get you two provinces but the igg player wins the curse split about 9-1 and can buy provinces with igg hands, uncluttered by curses.

93% - 6% is IGG vs. Stash, or Stash vs. IGG?
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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 09:29:19 pm »
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Simulator puts it at 93%-6%. The stashes get you two provinces but the igg player wins the curse split about 9-1 and can buy provinces with igg hands, uncluttered by curses.

93% - 6% is IGG vs. Stash, or Stash vs. IGG?

The second sentence leads me to believe Stash is the 6%.
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RD

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 09:39:00 pm »
+2

A straight Stash strategy is bad enough on a generic BM board. Here your cycling is going to be glacially slow due to Coppers and Curses, which means fewer Stash turns. If you're going to spend $5 on a Silver you hardly get to use, seems like it might as well be the one that gives out Curses.
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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 12:12:49 am »
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A straight Stash strategy is bad enough on a generic BM board. Here your cycling is going to be glacially slow due to Coppers and Curses, which means fewer Stash turns. If you're going to spend $5 on a Silver you hardly get to use, seems like it might as well be the one that gives out Curses.

Why Coppers?  I would think you would only have the standard 7.

The $5 Silver that you hardly get to use is also guaranteed to show up with 3 of his friends.

Not saying this makes it good -- just that one can go an entire IGG rush without ever buying a Province.  This guarantees you some.  The question is: is it enough?
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Forge!!!

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 12:52:08 am »
+3

You can go a whole IGG game without buying a province, unless your opponent is buying stashes instead of IGG, in which case you have a pretty solid shot of getting a province or two.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 07:14:35 am »
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In an IGG rush, each Province you buy is essentially one fewer Duchy you'll buy, so you really only gain 3 points.  Those 4 Stashes could have been 4 IGG.  That is, there could have been 4 fewer curses in your deck and 4 curses more in your opponent's deck.  That right there is an 8 point swing against you; you need to purchase 3 Provinces over Duchies to overcome that.  Not to mention that your opponent will likely grab a couple Provinces due to having so few curses.

Edit:  I think I misanalyzed the curses above. Your opponent gets a 4 IGG lead, so it's the last 6 which are contested which on average would become a 3-3 split, giving an overall 7-3 split against you.  On the other hand, you will have concentrated so much of your buying power into the Province hand that I doubt you'd consistently hit $5 for the rest of the shuffle, suggesting to me losing the curse split 8-2, which is 6 point swing from the directly contested 5-5 split.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 07:27:56 am by SirPeebles »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 11:58:57 am »
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A straight Stash strategy is bad enough on a generic BM board. Here your cycling is going to be glacially slow due to Coppers and Curses, which means fewer Stash turns. If you're going to spend $5 on a Silver you hardly get to use, seems like it might as well be the one that gives out Curses.

Why Coppers?  I would think you would only have the standard 7.

IGG gains you extra coppers.
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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 12:53:31 pm »
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A straight Stash strategy is bad enough on a generic BM board. Here your cycling is going to be glacially slow due to Coppers and Curses, which means fewer Stash turns. If you're going to spend $5 on a Silver you hardly get to use, seems like it might as well be the one that gives out Curses.

Why Coppers?  I would think you would only have the standard 7.

IGG gains you extra coppers.

Oh... but the Stash player isn't buying IGGs until way way later.
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DG

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 01:20:36 pm »
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Quote
IGG gains you extra coppers.

If you play the IGGs correctly you gain minimum copper when your opponent is not cursing you. You don't need to take that much copper either to buy 5 cost cards when you've some silver in your deck and no curses. This could of course be how my simulator IGG player gets better results than seen in the original game.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 01:23:08 pm by DG »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2012, 03:29:56 pm »
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Quote
IGG gains you extra coppers.

If you play the IGGs correctly you gain minimum copper when your opponent is not cursing you. You don't need to take that much copper either to buy 5 cost cards when you've some silver in your deck and no curses. This could of course be how my simulator IGG player gets better results than seen in the original game.

Oh, absolutely.  But you'll still probably gain some Copper.  The question was where extra Copper would come from, and that is where. :)



On the actual question of buying Stashes first:

- To reliably get Province every reshuffle, you will need 4 Stashes.
- Those Stashes could have been IGG or Duchy.
- Why switch to IGG late if you are going Stash early?  Why not just go all the way and grab 8 Stashes, hoping for 2 Provinces per reshuffle?
- Would straight Stash actually beat straight IGG?

Keep in mind, IGG is definitely capable of grabbing Provinces and also way better at grabbing Duchies, plus there are the Curses to offset as well.  I don't see how Stash could even stand a chance.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Stash in an IGG game. Discuss.
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 10:43:28 am »
0

OP:  Was your opponent doing the standard IGG/Curse/Duchy rush, or something different? 

Did either of you buy any Action cards? 
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