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Author Topic: Common strategic misconceptions  (Read 12882 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2012, 07:33:44 pm »
+1

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.

That's why you don't just buy one Bishop.  If you're going to go for Bishops, buy out the pile.
Yeah, so there's this thought. But it doesn't really work. It takes you FOREVER to buy anything valuable when you have so many cards that produce less money density than your starting deck.....

The point is not to buy anything of value. 
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2012, 07:39:30 pm »
0

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.

That's why you don't just buy one Bishop.  If you're going to go for Bishops, buy out the pile.
Yeah, so there's this thought. But it doesn't really work. It takes you FOREVER to buy anything valuable when you have so many cards that produce less money density than your starting deck.....

The point is not to buy anything of value. 
And grovellingly pick up ~2 VP every turn?

Kirian

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2012, 07:49:02 pm »
+1

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.

That's why you don't just buy one Bishop.  If you're going to go for Bishops, buy out the pile.
Yeah, so there's this thought. But it doesn't really work. It takes you FOREVER to buy anything valuable when you have so many cards that produce less money density than your starting deck.....

The point is not to buy anything of value. 
And grovellingly pick up ~2 VP every turn?

Well... if you average 2 VP per turn from T4 to T14, that's almost as good as getting 4 Provinces.  And if you're not going after Provinces, your opponent is going to take much longer to get 8 Provinces.  However, they could then pick up a single Bishop and start trashing Provinces and Golds... so maybe not.
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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 10:47:15 am »
0

If my opponent tries this strategy of "buying out" the bishops, I would do one of the following, depending on the board:

Build an awesome engine with the free trashing: if there are villages and draw, I will be able to play multiple bishops if I want, and buy at least a province a turn, possibly more if there's +buy. Or even better gain free things to trash.

Or:
Use the fact that my opponent is playing bishops every turn to trash down to the "golden deck". I'll be trashing provinces every turn, while my opponent will be trashing bishops/silver.

So yeah, its pretty rare I'd want to buy out bishops. Maybe with fortress though... just to keep my opponent from gaining too many of them, I'd only need like 4 (assuming no draw).
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Piemaster

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 12:13:44 pm »
0

I always considered Bishop a bit like JoaT.  It does a bunch of things, none of them particularly well, but put them altogether and it makes it worthwhile.  It gives you a little bit of money and a little bit of trashing and a little bit of VP.  Of course if you look at these things in isolation, none of them are significant.  But taken together I think they make a pretty powerful card and well worth opening on a lot of boards.

(Edit: Just for clarification, I'm not saying Bishop is as good as JoaT)
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Tables

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 12:53:20 pm »
+2

Thing is, the trashing it gives you is worse than the trashing it gives your opponents. The money is less than what you'd get from a Silver, and I don't think the VPs really make up for it as an opening, usually
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 04:24:37 pm »
0

If my opponent tries this strategy of "buying out" the bishops, I would do one of the following, depending on the board:

Build an awesome engine with the free trashing: if there are villages and draw, I will be able to play multiple bishops if I want, and buy at least a province a turn, possibly more if there's +buy. Or even better gain free things to trash.

Or:
Use the fact that my opponent is playing bishops every turn to trash down to the "golden deck". I'll be trashing provinces every turn, while my opponent will be trashing bishops/silver.

So yeah, its pretty rare I'd want to buy out bishops. Maybe with fortress though... just to keep my opponent from gaining too many of them, I'd only need like 4 (assuming no draw).

4 Bishops/4 Fortress nets 12VP a turn. Much better than the Golden deck. Also, easier to setup.
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blueblimp

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 04:43:51 pm »
0

"Buy duchies when provinces are low."

Usually correct if both you and your opponent are playing for provinces, but often oh-so-wrong if your opponent is aiming for a slow alt-VP strategy (mainly thinking of VP chips here). If your opponent is aiming for a VP explosion, you need to end the game ASAP before it happens, because a handful of points from Duchies won't save you. That means avoiding all green except provinces and draining that pile as fast as you can.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 04:45:29 pm »
0

"Buy duchies when provinces are low."

Usually correct if both you and your opponent are playing for provinces, but often oh-so-wrong if your opponent is aiming for a slow alt-VP strategy (mainly thinking of VP chips here). If your opponent is aiming for a VP explosion, you need to end the game ASAP before it happens, because a handful of points from Duchies won't save you. That means avoiding all green except provinces and draining that pile as fast as you can.

It could also mean stealing some of the alt-VP and hastening the 3-pile ending, assuming you have enough Provinces to maintain a lead.
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blueblimp

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 04:47:37 pm »
0

"Buy duchies when provinces are low."

Usually correct if both you and your opponent are playing for provinces, but often oh-so-wrong if your opponent is aiming for a slow alt-VP strategy (mainly thinking of VP chips here). If your opponent is aiming for a VP explosion, you need to end the game ASAP before it happens, because a handful of points from Duchies won't save you. That means avoiding all green except provinces and draining that pile as fast as you can.

It could also mean stealing some of the alt-VP and hastening the 3-pile ending, assuming you have enough Provinces to maintain a lead.
Yeah, although sometimes that isn't a good option, such as with VP chips or Vineyards.
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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 11:12:24 am »
+1

"Double jack is the best option when there is no strong engine"

Double jack is strong, but there are almost always slight adjustments to be made. Sometime its buying 1 jack and then a terminal draw card or two, sometimes its buying a warehouse and a festival because they combo well.

"Jack of All trades is a boring card and never goes in engines"

Jack does a lot of things. Don't discount them. If there is no other way to trash estates, jack can do that for you, and replace them with silver. If building an engine, you can use trash for benefit later to get rid of the jack. If you have a way to trash copper, like spice merchant, it can be nice to build up your economy with the silvers...

Jack can even be an engine component itself. With disappearing villages or hamlet, it does draw up to 5. I played a game with fishing village and ambassador, and this was quite amazing and fast. Jack+hamlet can make a weird sort of money/engine hybrid that is definitely faster than double jack alone.

Engine building is tricky with jack around, because you have to be fast(<15 turns for the whole game often), and attacks are going to be less effective, and stalling is going to be less effective, because Jack doesn't suffer much from greening. Still, if you're clever, there's a lot of interesting things to do with Jack.



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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2012, 11:17:05 am »
0

Addition/clarification: Of course, sometimes your engine really don't want silver, and there are other ways of trashing estates, and you don't want jack. I just think a lot of people think it NEVER goes in an engine.
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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2012, 11:20:45 am »
0

That's exactly what I was saying though. If I could somehow manage in those games to get 5 bishops, it would mean my opponent would only get 3, and in the long game, I would win. That's the only case I can think of though where I would want to buy ALL THE BISHOPS. Oh, the other case might be in a possession battle, where I want to trash everything good in my deck and three pile somehow. But that would be later in the game.

If my opponent tries this strategy of "buying out" the bishops, I would do one of the following, depending on the board:

Build an awesome engine with the free trashing: if there are villages and draw, I will be able to play multiple bishops if I want, and buy at least a province a turn, possibly more if there's +buy. Or even better gain free things to trash.

Or:
Use the fact that my opponent is playing bishops every turn to trash down to the "golden deck". I'll be trashing provinces every turn, while my opponent will be trashing bishops/silver.

So yeah, its pretty rare I'd want to buy out bishops. Maybe with fortress though... just to keep my opponent from gaining too many of them, I'd only need like 4 (assuming no draw).

4 Bishops/4 Fortress nets 12VP a turn. Much better than the Golden deck. Also, easier to setup.
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ehunt

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2012, 11:36:45 am »
0

dead horses of mine:

"don't take duchess when you buy a duchy"
take duchess, sometimes. she's free!

"a potion open is mandatory if familiar is on the board without other cursers"
there are a variety of exceptions, involving strong trashers. of course you will get creamed if you think you are in an exceptional case but you are not, so use caution. bear in mind: if your strategy has a 40% chance of winning if the opponent gets 3P on the second shuffle but a 90% chance of winning if he doesn't, then your strategy is superior to familiar even though you will get crushed some games.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 11:41:05 am »
+1

"don't take duchess when you buy a duchy"
take duchess, sometimes. she's free!

I almost always take Duchess. Usually, if I'm buying Duchies, I'm at the point in the game where either:

A) I'd take free Copper if you gave them to me, and even if you collide a couple Duchesses, that's still as good as Copper

2) I'm not using all my actions every turn, because I'm drawing a bunch of green that wasn't there 5 turns ago. Woo, money!
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 11:44:48 am »
+1

Hmm, question. If you have a bunch of, say, Markets or Worker's Villages, do you generally use your spare buys on Coppers in the Duchy-buying phase?
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ftl

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2012, 12:00:52 pm »
0

Usually not; if you have a bunch of spare Markets and Worker's Villages, you're probably running an engine of some sort, and the key is to make sure the engine keeps drawing your deck, and copper gets in the way of that. Also, even in the duchy-buying phase of a Big Money game, you're usually aiming to have enough for Provinces on some turns, so there's no reason to take spare Copper unless you really are settling for only Duchies and not planning to spike Provinces any more.
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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2012, 01:12:28 pm »
0

"Double jack is the best option when there is no strong engine"

Double jack is strong, but there are almost always slight adjustments to be made. Sometime its buying 1 jack and then a terminal draw card or two, sometimes its buying a warehouse and a festival because they combo well.

> Jack
> Festival
> Warehouse

Wait, there's not an engine here?  Granted, you said "strong engine," but if I can get my hands on enough Festivals and Warehouses, I'm double Provincing on you.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2012, 01:13:04 pm »
0

"Buy duchies when provinces are low."

Usually correct if both you and your opponent are playing for provinces, but often oh-so-wrong if your opponent is aiming for a slow alt-VP strategy (mainly thinking of VP chips here). If your opponent is aiming for a VP explosion, you need to end the game ASAP before it happens, because a handful of points from Duchies won't save you. That means avoiding all green except provinces and draining that pile as fast as you can.

Similarly, if your goal is ending the game on piles before your opponent gets his engine going, sometimes you want to buy Estates with $5+ or Duchies with $8+. The points are not as important as ending the game. For example, if you piledrove the IGGs, and your opponent is trying to build an engine, you should shoot for piling out Duchies. Any turn you waste to get a few more points is one turn they have to start making lots of points.

"Double jack is the best option when there is no strong engine"

Double jack is strong, but there are almost always slight adjustments to be made. Sometime its buying 1 jack and then a terminal draw card or two, sometimes its buying a warehouse and a festival because they combo well.

This is a dead horse of mine, so I'm glad someone else posted it. :) Jack is such a good opening for BM that it makes it seem like double Jack is a good strategy sometimes, but if you think about it even a little, there is no reason to buy a second Jack if you don't have some hand-size decreasing non-terminal. One Jack does enough trashing. All the second one does is gain Silvers and sift one card. There are quite a few terminals you can find that do something better than that.

The general form of this misconception is that strategies that do well in simulation are good to play in real games. There are so many limitations on the simulator games, that the situation where you'd actually want to play one of those strategies to the T in practice are really rare. The thing the simulator can give us is some insight that you have to apply to practical scenarios. Things like what cards are better openings for terminal draw BM, roughly how many terminals you want in some BM strategies, which kinds of BM strategies tend to like Duchies earlier or later than usual, etc... But if you actually just auto-buy Duchy when count remaining in supply of Provinces <= 5 or something with no regard for the score or your shuffles, then you're doing it wrong.
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Piemaster

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2012, 03:56:04 pm »
+1

I think this applies to Masquerade as well as Jack.  The second one has diminishing returns, meaning that BM + Masq + other terminal often seems to work better than BM + double Masq.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2012, 04:03:49 pm »
0

I think this applies to Masquerade as well as Jack.  The second one has diminishing returns, meaning that BM + Masq + other terminal often seems to work better than BM + double Masq.
Yeah, but with masq, you don't even want the second masq usually if you're just playing BM. And I think most people understand this much more about Masq than Jack.

Actually, there are certain shuffle lucks you can get for which single jack is better than doublejack in the mirror, i.e. you actually want to buy silver over the second jack. This should show how marginal the increase of a second jack is, and how much you should want some other card instead in many cases.

DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2012, 04:48:26 pm »
+1

Wait, there's not an engine here?  Granted, you said "strong engine," but if I can get my hands on enough Festivals and Warehouses, I'm double Provincing on you.

Good point, really I was thinking of each of those cards individually: on a jack board with ONE of those and no other engine, I'd suppliment jack with those cards. But with both, it probably goes to my second point, that you can build an engine WITH jack. Certainly in that case I would buy warehouse on 3, and festival on 5, and probably I'd even skip gold, and I'd aim for roughly even numbers of jack and festival. I haven't tested this though, like I've tested hamlet+jack.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 05:01:48 pm »
0

Hmm, question. If you have a bunch of, say, Markets or Worker's Villages, do you generally use your spare buys on Coppers in the Duchy-buying phase?

It depends on where I'm at in the shuffle, and how likely I think I am to hit $8 again. I'll start buying Coppers on the last time through my deck that I think I'm likely to hit $8.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 05:29:06 pm »
0

"Double jack is the best option when there is no strong engine"

Double jack is strong, but there are almost always slight adjustments to be made. Sometime its buying 1 jack and then a terminal draw card or two, sometimes its buying a warehouse and a festival because they combo well.

> Jack
> Festival
> Warehouse

Wait, there's not an engine here?  Granted, you said "strong engine," but if I can get my hands on enough Festivals and Warehouses, I'm double Provincing on you.
With no other drawing, how are you ever getting enough money in your at-most-5-card hands? Unless you are saying that warehouse+jack+festival is the engine, in which case I agree but am confused because I thought that was DrFlux's point...

Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 05:41:03 pm »
+1

"Double jack is the best option when there is no strong engine"

Double jack is strong, but there are almost always slight adjustments to be made. Sometime its buying 1 jack and then a terminal draw card or two, sometimes its buying a warehouse and a festival because they combo well.

> Jack
> Festival
> Warehouse

Wait, there's not an engine here?  Granted, you said "strong engine," but if I can get my hands on enough Festivals and Warehouses, I'm double Provincing on you.
With no other drawing, how are you ever getting enough money in your at-most-5-card hands? Unless you are saying that warehouse+jack+festival is the engine, in which case I agree but am confused because I thought that was DrFlux's point...

DrFlux was saying that you can add Warehouse or Festival to a DoubleJack deck to make it slightly better. (_)\||/$__) was saying that if you have a board with Warehouse, Jack, and Festival, why wouldn't you make an engine out of those instead of playing DoubleJack with Rooster Sauce.
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