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Author Topic: Common strategic misconceptions  (Read 12883 times)

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cherdano

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Common strategic misconceptions
« on: December 12, 2012, 02:34:29 pm »
+1


I thought the card-ranking threads were interesting partly because many posters made good points about why certain cards are frequently overvalued. Similarly, the ranked card lists may be useful to beginning or intermediate players simply because if they find a placement of a card highly surprising (SCOUT IS NOT A TOP 3 CARD???), that tells them something about their own misconceptions.

But of course it depends on the kingdom. So I thought it might be worth to make a separate thread about common misconceptions/wrong uses of some cards etc. in the context of a kingdom.
What concrete type of mistake have you seen most often among players 10 levels below you? Among players with roughly the same level as yours.
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cherdano

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 02:37:58 pm »
+1

Let me give an example myself:

Not every board with a grand markets is a race to win the grand markets split!
Once your buying power is strong enough to hit $8 in a province game, you should have good reasons to prefer a grand market over a province. If you have an engine that should soon be hitting double province buys, then of course you should go ahead and buy the grand market. But otherwise you often won't be able to catch up on provinces in time.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 02:45:01 pm »
+6

Just played a Goons game where someone opened Bishop/Crossroads to my Silver/Crossroads. I won a lot. It's already been discussed that Bishop is usually a pretty weak opener, but on a Goons boards it's even worse.

I get as much trashing as he does from it; and the VP from Bishop is going to be completely irrelevant when we both want to eventually play 4 Goons per turn. So Bishop is basically a terminal Copper here.
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cherdano

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 03:08:51 pm »
+3

Here is another:

"My opponent opened with a strong trasher, so there is no point for me to buy a curser."

This is absolutely true on some boards, but completely wrong on others. Sometimes, the curses will slow down the opponent's engine building enormously, since it will take him longer to trash away the bad stuff. One way to think about it is: if the opponent has a small deck, say due to having trashed 4 cars with a chapel on turn 3, the additional curse makes a much bigger difference to his average card value. That's why Witch/chapel is a pretty good opening!
Other times, the opponent is already on his way towards drawing his entire deck and can afford the extra action to use his trasher to get rid of your curses. They will hardly make a difference. That's why you would hardly ever buy a sea hag on a board with remake, menagerie, a $2 cantrip and a +buy.

So this should be a decision to think about for a moment, not one to take reflexively.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 10:48:02 pm by cherdano »
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ednever

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 04:32:41 pm »
0

Just played a Goons game where someone opened Bishop/Crossroads to my Silver/Crossroads. I won a lot. It's already been discussed that Bishop is usually a pretty weak opener, but on a Goons boards it's even worse.

I get as much trashing as he does from it; and the VP from Bishop is going to be completely irrelevant when we both want to eventually play 4 Goons per turn. So Bishop is basically a terminal Copper here.

Even better would be silver/silver, no?

Ed
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 04:45:59 pm »
0

Even better would be silver/silver, no?

Ed

I assumed he opened 5/2 and the board sucked other than Goons and some village.
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dondon151

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 04:47:34 pm »
+1

* Silver/Duchess

Come on, you know you want to.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 04:49:50 pm »
0

Just played a Goons game where someone opened Bishop/Crossroads to my Silver/Crossroads. I won a lot. It's already been discussed that Bishop is usually a pretty weak opener, but on a Goons boards it's even worse.

I get as much trashing as he does from it; and the VP from Bishop is going to be completely irrelevant when we both want to eventually play 4 Goons per turn. So Bishop is basically a terminal Copper here.

Even better would be silver/silver, no?

Ed

It was a tough call. My thought was that A) I knew extra actions would be extremely important, and B) The Crossroads early would likely provide some extra cycling as well as having a chance of being worth $2 the first time I played it anyway. But I suppose your right, Silver/Silver would have helped get the first Goons even quicker.
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Wingnut

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2012, 04:51:53 pm »
+5

Automatically opening Fishing Village without taking into account whether there are strong enough terminals to merit multiple terminals being played on a turn or taking into account a lack of +buy
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dondon151

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2012, 04:55:21 pm »
+2

Gaining Wandering Minstrel on a board with Looters.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2012, 05:53:16 pm »
0

Gaining Wandering Minstrel on a board with Looters.

I quickly learned that one the hard way.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 12:54:37 pm »
0

Always discarding to Torturer.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 06:54:26 pm »
+4

Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

yudantaiteki

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 10:28:38 pm »
0

Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

Can you explain this more?
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greatexpectations

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 10:33:46 pm »
0

Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

Can you explain this more?

the main downside here is that bishop offers your opponent an option to trash as well. they can then focus on building their engine and playing other action cards while still thinning out their deck just as fast as you. this boost is often enough to offset the marginal difference in VP chips in the early game.
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jonts26

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 11:01:43 pm »
0

Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

Can you explain this more?

the main downside here is that bishop offers your opponent an option to trash as well. they can then focus on building their engine and playing other action cards while still thinning out their deck just as fast as you. this boost is often enough to offset the marginal difference in VP chips in the early game.

Bishop generally makes a better open in big money games where the early game points are going to be relevant. It's really bad when there's an engine because your opponent really likes the free trashing and will have better early economy which is paramount.

Oh and it should go without saying that it makes a fantastic opening when chapel is there too.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 05:31:55 pm »
+4

Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

Can you explain this more?

the main downside here is that bishop offers your opponent an option to trash as well. they can then focus on building their engine and playing other action cards while still thinning out their deck just as fast as you. this boost is often enough to offset the marginal difference in VP chips in the early game.
Yeah, so this is basically correct, but I would like to expand on this more.
So if you look at trashing an estate with it, and your opponent does the same, you come out with 1 more money and 2 more points, whereas he has a, let's say silver in his deck (the opportunity cost). This is a pretty decent trade.
You trash a copper and he does the same. You end up with 1 more coin, and 1 more point. Not so worth it. Now overall, we look at BM-bishop opening with bishop being best, and it beats other options... but only very slightly.
More important, you are going to have a 5 card hand, one of which is bishop, which gives you 4 more cards to trash from. Your opponent has 5 cards to trash from. So he has extra chances to trash what he wants than you do, and he has extra cards to do something with after he trashes, and you've used a terminal action.

Now, bishop is by no means a bad card overall, for a few reasons. So why? Well, basically it is at it's best in the golden deck (this is of course a special case big exception to my generality), or in an engine, later on. (Bishop-BM is like, I think it's even worse than chancellor? It's really bad, almost never optimal - very many things let your opponent win the province split, and you have a very hard time hanging in the duchies, or getting 12 points from chips in time...).
Why is it better later? Well, there's a couple really big reasons. First, it's less likely that your opponent can just trash something without hurting their next hand in a significant way, which takes a way a huge portion of the drawback. Moreover, you are often reaping LOTS of points in such an engine (trashing 1-2 golds and re-buying them every turn is really good, and a really good way to crush a BM player to death, for instances), and perhaps most important, you just have more cards in your hand to be able to trash exactly what you want.

DG

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 05:43:30 pm »
0

Quote
Bishop generally makes a better open in big money games where the early game points are going to be relevant. It's really bad when there's an engine because your opponent really likes the free trashing and will have better early economy which is paramount.

Not really. Any drawing card like a smithy should be able to beat a basic bishop+treasure deck. Bishop is only strong in a treasure deck when there are no other good terminals in the kingdom.

Going back to common strategic misconceptions I will suggest the quarry. No further explanation needed.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 05:48:09 pm by DG »
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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 06:18:50 pm »
0

I wrote an article about this, saying essentially the same thing. Bishop is usually a bad opener.

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away. I don't think people think to buy bishop turns 3-6. Because of that, most of peoples experience is games where one person buys bishop and the other doesn't. In a lot of games bishop is really good. Its just better when you don't start with it.

One additional reason other than what WW stated is just the opportunity cost of not having an additional silver. When there are awesome 5 cost things out, you want those as early as possible, and opening bishop hurts that goal. I've seen people open bishop/silver when Hunting party or wharf was on the board. Don't do it.



Bishop is a generally good opener.


Bishop is generally TERRIBLE as an opener (there are exceptions), yet people do it ALL THE TIME.

Can you explain this more?

the main downside here is that bishop offers your opponent an option to trash as well. they can then focus on building their engine and playing other action cards while still thinning out their deck just as fast as you. this boost is often enough to offset the marginal difference in VP chips in the early game.
Yeah, so this is basically correct, but I would like to expand on this more.
So if you look at trashing an estate with it, and your opponent does the same, you come out with 1 more money and 2 more points, whereas he has a, let's say silver in his deck (the opportunity cost). This is a pretty decent trade.
You trash a copper and he does the same. You end up with 1 more coin, and 1 more point. Not so worth it. Now overall, we look at BM-bishop opening with bishop being best, and it beats other options... but only very slightly.
More important, you are going to have a 5 card hand, one of which is bishop, which gives you 4 more cards to trash from. Your opponent has 5 cards to trash from. So he has extra chances to trash what he wants than you do, and he has extra cards to do something with after he trashes, and you've used a terminal action.

Now, bishop is by no means a bad card overall, for a few reasons. So why? Well, basically it is at it's best in the golden deck (this is of course a special case big exception to my generality), or in an engine, later on. (Bishop-BM is like, I think it's even worse than chancellor? It's really bad, almost never optimal - very many things let your opponent win the province split, and you have a very hard time hanging in the duchies, or getting 12 points from chips in time...).
Why is it better later? Well, there's a couple really big reasons. First, it's less likely that your opponent can just trash something without hurting their next hand in a significant way, which takes a way a huge portion of the drawback. Moreover, you are often reaping LOTS of points in such an engine (trashing 1-2 golds and re-buying them every turn is really good, and a really good way to crush a BM player to death, for instances), and perhaps most important, you just have more cards in your hand to be able to trash exactly what you want.
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DG

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 06:20:57 pm »
0

 
Quote
I've seen people open bishop/silver when Hunting party or wharf was on the board. Don't do it.

Hunting party + bishop is strong though?
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werothegreat

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 06:22:55 pm »
+2

When there's no good draw, and poor +Actions, I tend to just buy Bishop after Bishop, and keep shoving them into each other, making my VP lead insurmountable by any Provinces my opponent might be able to pick up. 

If you both go Bishop, there comes a point where your opponent no longer wants to trash anything.  Whereas you just keep shoving Silvers and whatnot through the meat grinder.
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DrFlux

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 06:26:27 pm »
0

Oh yes, HP + bishop is strong, I just would open silver/silver for it. The particular board I'm thinking of had hoard on it, so I knew I could catch up on points, but I THINK its right to open silver/silver even for plain bishop+HP. Not 100% sure.
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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 06:40:40 pm »
0

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.
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werothegreat

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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 06:57:14 pm »
+2

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.

That's why you don't just buy one Bishop.  If you're going to go for Bishops, buy out the pile.
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Re: Common strategic misconceptions
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 06:59:18 pm »
0

I got a lot of resistance to this, and I think this resistance comes because people think of it as a trasher, and want to buy it right away.
I'm going to generalize this a bit and say: It's a common strategic misconception that Trash for Benefit cards are Trashers. Many TfB cards like Remodel, Apprentice, and Salvager are Trash for Benefit cards. A few, like Upgrade and Bishop, aren't quite as lopsided, because using them to trash copper isn't a waste of an action, but trashing only one copper per turn isn't going to get you a slim deck with any speed.

That's why you don't just buy one Bishop.  If you're going to go for Bishops, buy out the pile.
Yeah, so there's this thought. But it doesn't really work. It takes you FOREVER to buy anything valuable when you have so many cards that produce less money density than your starting deck.....
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