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[Captain_Frisk]

On the claiming vs. not, the scenario in which delayed claiming is beneficial is very rare (we have to correctly lynch scum) AND not have one of the masons vengekilled.

I probably wouldn't have forced the issue if it wasn't increasingly clear that RobZ and I were not masons, which meant that scum would be able to POE the masons anyway.

Finally, you'd never make it to L-1 with the masons uncovered.  We'd all dick around until deadline, and something bad would happen.

As for the possibility that both RobZ and I are scum... have we ever seen such bold scum play?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

it's been one long-ass tunnel though.

Might want to consider more posting.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

Then I vote Insomniac for MVP.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

Galzria, having good reads is only one part of the game. It's a part of the gamr that you are good at (better than me). But convincing people that there is no way you are scum--which is what Frisk and I did here--is also a very, very, very important aspect of the game.

There is a difference between scum and mafia, even in this setup.  Your play was not pro-town, it was mostly the same post over and over again, which, from an IC perspective, is extremely unhelpful.  You did do one thing to help the town though.  You kept me from demanding a Frisk policy lynch, because I couldn't decide if I wanted you more.

[Captain_Frisk]

I do agree that RobZ's unwillingness to help was kindof a pain, but I can also see that from his perspective the game was over as long as we didn't lynch either of us.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

Galzria, having good reads is only one part of the game. It's a part of the gamr that you are good at (better than me). But convincing people that there is no way you are scum--which is what Frisk and I did here--is also a very, very, very important aspect of the game.

Robz, convincing people you are not scum is only one part of the game.  It's a part of this game that you spent too much time at.  But contributing ideas, observations, POE's etc --which is what we needed you to do here, and what we asked repeatedly for you to do here -- is also a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, important aspect of the game.

For what it's worth, the number of "verys" in that las sentence is less than or approximately equal to the number of "reminders" you spammed us with during this game.

[Captain_Frisk]

In this setup, convincing people you are town is more important than hunting for scum.  If 2 people are confirmed as town who aren't masons, game over!

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

It's NOT the claiming, which although I disagree with, I can understand your position on. It's that, as a VT, you CANNOT afford to declare someone as "absolutely town", and vice-versa. Even if you personally feel that way, you cannot afford to stand so staunchly in this setup. The reason is because if the Eevee's of the world get lynched and flip town (and we all know they will), then the town is left with a bitch of a decision. Insomniac got it right here, and major credit to him for it - but while you and Frisk were not likely to be scum/town, you COULD be scum/scum as easily as town/town. And after one town mislynch, you CANNOT afford another.

Now, if you're an IC, you need to decide: If Robz/CF are town, the game is solved. How often is that true? If  Robz/CF are SCUM though, then what? Even if you lynch scum D2 (which trust me, Scum!Robz and Scum!CF would make sure happened) then the two lynches left would both fall on town.

You forced the IC's to gamble the whole game D1. After mislynching Eevee, they had no choice but to follow through. If you were scum this game, you would've won just as easily. Proclaiming absolute town reads as a VT is very, very bad. The correct play for the IC's is to lynch one, and if wrong treat the other as an IC - which I get, you were trying to do regarding CF if they lynched you. But at least then thtown doesn't have to throw the entire game on the line D1, and has 3 scum in 4 players remaining.

This is precisely it.  A Frisk/Robz led scum team would cook this up right out of the gate. They are certainly capable of it, and for it to work it would have had to be a balls-to-the-wall, all-in, never-let-this-bone-go, beat-it-to-death, then-force-it-upon-them-anyway approach, which is exactly what you guys did.

I spent a major part of D1 worried about precisely this, which drew my focus away from Grujah.  Robz, you say, hey what was wrong with the play, we WON.  That was the result, yes, but I don't think you get much of the credit.

[Captain_Frisk]

SFS, you realize that RobZ and I didn't have daychat right?  We couldn't exactly undo it.  if i backed off, it would have been bad, because it was (or should have been) clear that Robz and I were not masons.  At that point scum has the advantage (they know that masons are 2 out of 3) and the VTs are still clueless.

[Eevee]

it's been one long-ass tunnel though.

Might want to consider more posting.

lol. i spent literally all my online time in this thread and faked going to bathroom or texting people to get some more of it. and i was only around for 1 day and still posted more than the average, probably. don't understand where this is coming from!

[Captain_Frisk]

it's been one long-ass tunnel though.

Might want to consider more posting.

lol. i spent literally all my online time in this thread and faked going to bathroom or texting people to get some more of it. and i was only around for 1 day and still posted more than the average, probably. don't understand where this is coming from!

I promise, I really thought you were fibbing... like your scum buddies had just said: hey go vote for this guy

[Eevee]

it's been one long-ass tunnel though.

Might want to consider more posting.

lol. i spent literally all my online time in this thread and faked going to bathroom or texting people to get some more of it. and i was only around for 1 day and still posted more than the average, probably. don't understand where this is coming from!

I promise, I really thought you were fibbing... like your scum buddies had just said: hey go vote for this guy

Nah, I caught up with the reading and voted for my top scum read. I don't know what the thing with your people online page was, I was  obviously 100% honest about everything.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm sorry, and I'm glad it worked out in the end.  At least you didn't have to wait long to be avenged.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

SFS, you realize that RobZ and I didn't have daychat right?  We couldn't exactly undo it.  if i backed off, it would have been bad, because it was (or should have been) clear that Robz and I were not masons.  At that point scum has the advantage (they know that masons are 2 out of 3) and the VTs are still clueless.

Of course I realize you don't have daychat, if you're town.  I was worried that you were mafia!

I am open to the notion that it should have been obvious that you two were not masons.  Hey even I knew you weren't a mason.  I am open to the notion that you could not have backed off, without looking scummy. Hence, it could have been a bold scum gambit. So bold it would be ridiculous to try it, which is what would make it work.  Now from my perspective as an IC, once you guys (as mafia) sold that idea, how would you play the game? Well, you'd never back off (which you never did - we were still discussing claiming well after the actual claims and just about up to the D1 deadline) and you'd make sure that no chinks developed in the armor. What would that look like?  Well, one of you could keep screaming "if you lynch me, don't lynch the other one".  That's way too obvious to be mafia, right? I coupled that with some meta about another player, and went Damn, this is a HUGE possibility.  It was very distracting, at best, and at worst it seemed anti-town.  The fact that it turned out ok, or that the math justified it, is, to me at least, irrelevant.

By the way, for ZM8, I'm not removing the masons.  I'm hoping to have at least one or two newbies, and between the mafia QT and the mason QT, they would have a good chance of having some in-game guidance. Roles will still be assigned randomly, of course, but 2 daychats is twice as many as 1.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

AND TO ANYONE THAT WANTS IN ON ZM8, READ THE OP.

[Captain_Frisk]

AND TO ANYONE THAT WANTS IN ON ZM8, READ THE OP.

You're in the wrong thread! I have innned, but I'm ouuuuttt if it doesn't launch TODAY

[Jimmmmm]

Dsell, you picked me out as obvscum in the speccy QT. I'd really appreciate if you'd tell me how you came to that conclusion?

[Jimmmmm]

A few thoughts on this game.

I have no reason to think either Robz or Frisk would have said anything different at the start of the game if they were scum. Yes, they "solved" the game early in day one, and yes they won, but I think the IC status they gave each other was poor play.

I also have no reason to think I would have responded to the Robz/Frisk thing any differently if I was Town. Even knowing they were both Town, I still found it very strange. Yes Robz called me obvscum, and yes he was right (about the scum part), but I would have had the same reaction if I was Town.

So yeah, I think Robz and Frisk just happened to be lucky that the roles happened to have landed the way that they were boldly claiming.

[Robz888]

I'm sure we did get lucky... but the most important thing you can do is convince the ICs that you are town. Good on Frisk for doing that, good on the ICs for getting it right, and we won. So I don't really think Frisk or I have anything to like apologize for here...

[Jimmmmm]

Never said you did. I just think you assumed a lot, and you were lucky enough that it happened to be true.

[Grujah]

AND TO ANYONE THAT WANTS IN ON ZM8, READ THE OP.

It wasn't my attention to piss you off so greatly, sorry 

[Grujah]

so much*

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

AND TO ANYONE THAT WANTS IN ON ZM8, READ THE OP.

It wasn't my attention to piss you off so greatly, sorry 

Grujah, this wasn't aimed at anybody, especially you.  It was for all.