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[sparky5856]

ZM-VII has been truly entertaining to watch. I'm not in the QT, so have absolutely no outside influence - but if I were playing, I would ABSOLUTELY lynch one of Frisk/Robz today. That pair HAS to be broken up, because if Eevee (or anybody else) is lynched and flips town, you cannot afford to mislynch again, and you've no idea if Robz/Frisk are playing the town. What they've set up, if they are both town, is a TERRIBLE position for the town to be in - and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Should Masons claim or not" debate.

THANK YOU. I didn't just think this cause I was scum. I truly felt it. Already said, if I was town, I would have acted the same way I did this game.

[Insomniac]

Btw still think claiming is worse than not claiming but also that masons are op in this setup.

[Captain_Frisk]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

[Eevee]

I was the jeanne d'arc of this victory then!

[Galzria]

Btw still think claiming is worse than not claiming but also that masons are op in this setup.

That's a tough debate.

If you don't claim early, you end up with actually townies getting punished for trying to scumhunt and failing to do so well (as inevitably happens D1). On top of that, you potentially spend half the day or more building cases on someone who ultimately cannot be scum.

So I understand the desire to get them out in the open early. Two IC's are NOT a bad thing to have.

However, not claiming ALSO makes it harder for scum to play aggressively, for fear of pushing cases on what will turn out to be conf. Town. What's more, if you do not claim AND lynch scum, they get a revenge kill on 1 of 5 town... If they MISS the Masons? They're screwed! If they DO hit a mason? The other can STILL SAFELY CLAIM, since to counter-claim would mean a 1-1 trade, resulting in a scum loss.

Overall I would probably lean to not claiming being the correct play.

[Robz888]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

[Robz888]

By the way I am with my girlfriend right now trying to convince her to play a game.

[Galzria]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

[Robz888]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

[Robz888]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

Galzria, having good reads is only one part of the game. It's a part of the gamr that you are good at (better than me). But convincing people that there is no way you are scum--which is what Frisk and I did here--is also a very, very, very important aspect of the game.

[Eevee]

Our town team in this game was super-stacked with experience btw. 4 guys with more than 1000 mafia posts?

[ashersky]

Our town team in this game was super-stacked with experience btw. 4 guys with more than 1000 mafia posts?

This.

Also, I think if the VTs and Goons had been switched, we'd have seen a very different game.

I love the back and forth you guys are having:  "Masons are OP!!!"  "Claiming was bad!!"  "Claiming won the game for us!!!"

That's why I think the change was worthwhile and fun, because even now we're still arguing.

[Eevee]

Just depends what winrate you want the scum team to have. Town was already >50% with the IC's and masons are strictly better.

[Galzria]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

I think you misunderstand the issue I have.

It's NOT the claiming, which although I disagree with, I can understand your position on. It's that, as a VT, you CANNOT afford to declare someone as "absolutely town", and vice-versa. Even if you personally feel that way, you cannot afford to stand so staunchly in this setup. The reason is because if the Eevee's of the world get lynched and flip town (and we all know they will), then the town is left with a bitch of a decision. Insomniac got it right here, and major credit to him for it - but while you and Frisk were not likely to be scum/town, you COULD be scum/scum as easily as town/town. And after one town mislynch, you CANNOT afford another.

Now, if you're an IC, you need to decide: If Robz/CF are town, the game is solved. How often is that true? If  Robz/CF are SCUM though, then what? Even if you lynch scum D2 (which trust me, Scum!Robz and Scum!CF would make sure happened) then the two lynches left would both fall on town.

You forced the IC's to gamble the whole game D1. After mislynching Eevee, they had no choice but to follow through. If you were scum this game, you would've won just as easily. Proclaiming absolute town reads as a VT is very, very bad. The correct play for the IC's is to lynch one, and if wrong treat the other as an IC - which I get, you were trying to do regarding CF if they lynched you. But at least then thtown doesn't have to throw the entire game on the line D1, and has 3 scum in 4 players remaining.

[Insomniac]

Robz. Man. Frisk played well and convinced me he wasn't scum. You. I thought you might be the third and I was leaving you to white flag rule

[Robz888]

fwiw, and I'll provide the PM's to Volt (prior to Eevee's lynch), I actually thought from an outside observer that Robz/Frisk did this town a HUGE disservice, and made it REALLY hard for them to win.

Insomniac, if anybody, I think deserved MVP.

Insomniac for MVP?  Sure

Robz and I anti town. Hogwash!  Robz and i called the ictory on day 1

Hogwash a thousand times over. And I have no beef with the game Insomniac played--though I disagree with him about claiming--but if anyone but Frisk got the MVP here I would riot.

You honestly don't see why yours and CF's play was terrible for the town, and the only reason that you won being Insomniac making an incredibly difficult, but ultimately correct decision?

No... I don't think so, no. Ouch.

I think the Masons claiming was absolutely the right thing to do, and I think Frisk and I pushing for it made us obvtown, and despite the Eevee mistake (which I myself didn't even push) we won like pretty easily. How can you say our play was terrible? We won, like, pretty easily. The ICs were barely even conflicted there.

I think you misunderstand the issue I have.

It's NOT the claiming, which although I disagree with, I can understand your position on. It's that, as a VT, you CANNOT afford to declare someone as "absolutely town", and vice-versa. Even if you personally feel that way, you cannot afford to stand so staunchly in this setup. The reason is because if the Eevee's of the world get lynched and flip town (and we all know they will), then the town is left with a bitch of a decision. Insomniac got it right here, and major credit to him for it - but while you and Frisk were not likely to be scum/town, you COULD be scum/scum as easily as town/town. And after one town mislynch, you CANNOT afford another.

Now, if you're an IC, you need to decide: If Robz/CF are town, the game is solved. How often is that true? If  Robz/CF are SCUM though, then what? Even if you lynch scum D2 (which trust me, Scum!Robz and Scum!CF would make sure happened) then the two lynches left would both fall on town.

You forced the IC's to gamble the whole game D1. After mislynching Eevee, they had no choice but to follow through. If you were scum this game, you would've won just as easily. Proclaiming absolute town reads as a VT is very, very bad. The correct play for the IC's is to lynch one, and if wrong treat the other as an IC - which I get, you were trying to do regarding CF if they lynched you. But at least then thtown doesn't have to throw the entire game on the line D1, and has 3 scum in 4 players remaining.

Well, as you point out, that's why I wasn't overly concerned with myself getting lynched, so long as they treated Frisk as obvtown after. But I think Frisk (and to a lesser extent, myself) did a really good job of being like 85% guaranteed town. His reaction to Eevee's mislynch was so real, so human. that's hard to fake. I was even more convinced he was town after that. And this is an important part of the game. I'm very proud of Insomniac for making the right calls (something I struggled with as IC), but I think Frisk gave them a lot of solid evidence to make that call.

[Robz888]

Robz. Man. Frisk played well and convinced me he wasn't scum. You. I thought you might be the third and I was leaving you to white flag rule

I mean, Frisk was saying absolutely everything I thought 100%, which is how I was so convicned he wasn't scum. I actually did think the best thing might be for me to get lynched first, so that you knew to trust him. I'm sorry it was annoying I kept reposting that. It was just really important, I thought.

I don't blame you for worrying I was scum... but I do think the world in which I was scum most likely had Frisk as scum too.

[sparky5856]

Oh, and by the way...

Ok, what is a vengekill?

this didn't help our cause at all. xD

[Grujah]

Congrats to town, you still smell bad BTW.

Also, Ash - I don't think that unique vote counting was fair, and also lack of vote counts was very inconvenient, esp during deadlines (what I learned from when I hosted Pirate Mafia is that you should set deadlines at times when you are available).

[Grujah]

@Sparky - yup, I made like 10 scumslips, I was that bad.

[ashersky]

Congrats to town, you still smell bad BTW.

Also, Ash - I don't think that unique vote counting was fair, and also lack of vote counts was very inconvenient, esp during deadlines (what I learned from when I hosted Pirate Mafia is that you should set deadlines at times when you are available).

Fair points.  I am usually around for deadline, but worked called me away.  D2 and D3 ended on their own.

Unique vote counts have actually never come into play, ever, in any game.  Nor has scum gamed them, which I think I would have by now.

[Grujah]

Vote Count 1.7

Eevee (1, u1): Captain_Frisk
Robz888 (2, u4): Grujah, Insomniac, Jimmmmm, sparky5856
Grujah (1, u1): SwitchedFromStarcraft
Insomniac (1, u2): Grujah, Captain Frisk
Captain_Frisk (0, u1): Insomniac
SwitchedFromStarcraft (0, u1): Eevee
Jimmmmm (1, u1): Robz888

Not Voting (2): Eevee, Insomniac

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Tuesday, December 18th, at 4:30 p.m. forum time.

MODS, IS GRUJAH REALLY VOTING FOR AN IC?

I didn't unvote in a while, I though my vote was on Robz.

I g2g, friend has his.. uhm.. "slava" I cannot really find English translation right now. As such, Vote: Robz

So he had to go, but wanted to check guilds spoilers first.

And OMG, what's with all the stalking. I was waiting for a TAXI (it said it'll come in 7 minutes) and browsed the page meanwhile. Omigosh.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimm, you were obvscum because you kept insisting one of me/Frisk were scum, and that didn't make sense, but was simply the point the scumteam needed to establish. Kudos to you for trying though. You did well, but hammering Eeve was a big mistake.

I really think I would have been uncomfortable with your buddying if I was Town. And yeah, I didn't really see another play. Also, as I was fretting about in the QT, at the end of day 1 I didn't really see a good option for me, and thought hammering was the lesser of three evils. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know. What I wanted was for Grujah to hammer, but he wasn't around.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote Count 1.7

Eevee (1, u1): Captain_Frisk
Robz888 (2, u4): Grujah, Insomniac, Jimmmmm, sparky5856
Grujah (1, u1): SwitchedFromStarcraft
Insomniac (1, u2): Grujah, Captain Frisk
Captain_Frisk (0, u1): Insomniac
SwitchedFromStarcraft (0, u1): Eevee
Jimmmmm (1, u1): Robz888

Not Voting (2): Eevee, Insomniac

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Tuesday, December 18th, at 4:30 p.m. forum time.

MODS, IS GRUJAH REALLY VOTING FOR AN IC?

I didn't unvote in a while, I though my vote was on Robz.

I g2g, friend has his.. uhm.. "slava" I cannot really find English translation right now. As such, Vote: Robz

So he had to go, but wanted to check guilds spoilers first.

And OMG, what's with all the stalking. I was waiting for a TAXI (it said it'll come in 7 minutes) and browsed the page meanwhile. Omigosh.

Pro town would dictate that you'd be hunting scum right?

[Grujah]

No, it doesn't. I already called the cab, and was waiting for arrival. Couldn't really do anything worthy mafia-wise, and I had time to quick-check interesting threads.
It's the same when I'm say "off to sleep" - I'll prolly lurk some more after than, regardless of alignment.