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Author Topic: WWAG #2  (Read 6244 times)

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RisingJaguar

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2012, 03:17:42 pm »
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Those of you who are saying it depends on how your opponent plays: how? Obviously you can't cover everything, but give general gameplans of what you will do against other general reasonable strategies.
The idea between Jester/Torturer will depend on how BM or engine-y their deck is.  If their deck can be drawn out, the more torturer is not as useful, as curses can be instantly trashed, and the more jester becomes useful grabbing like-pieces.  The opposite for a more BM-style deck where torturer's decisions hurt a lot more.

Balancing cities grabbing.  I think the way I want to play encourages purchases of cities regardless, but I would think there has to be a lot of reactions here.  I think its because of this natural need to buy cities likely by both players that getting scrying pool is probably overkill for drawing purposes. 

Vineyard jocking.  The usual?

The usual 3 piles in an engine game with cities grabbing, jestering, grand markets, etc. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2012, 09:28:32 pm »
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I think I would have gone Masq/Jack and then BM straight for Provinces, which I think is fast enough to take 8 Provinces before the engine is really rolling.

But there are a lot of great players here saying otherwise.
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jonts26

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2012, 09:50:13 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure there is about 0 chance that a big money strategy wins here.
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dondon151

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2012, 10:33:56 pm »
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The thing is that, as -Stef- kind of pointed out, a Vineyards engine is strong enough to go for the rest of the Provinces anyway. So the engine player has total control of the game.
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greatexpectations

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2012, 10:51:57 pm »
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just played two sets of this board with jonts26. i tried two different strategies, and jonts26 built an engine targeting vineyards. i put spoilers in case people would rather wait to see some analysis. i think that knowing the number of turns it took us up front could bias one's strategy at least.

game 1 -
i try a gardens approach powered by jack and jester, hoping i could steal enough vineyards to keep it close. jonts builds into grand markets and scrying pools with a couple of cities and torturers. it takes a real long time to build but once it's going i get smoked. i could have kept it closer by getting more vineyards but i'd have lost either way. game ended in 18 turns, but jonts26's unlucky 5/2 start slowed things down a little.

game 2 -
we drew colonies unplanned, but we decided to play it anyway. we both got 5/2 draws which again slowed us down. jonts26 largely repeats his engine, though he followed me into dipping for some cities. i opt to try the draw engine into bank. i end with tons of buying power but i was a little short on buys. i kept it close because of colonies, but i would definitely need more grand market's on a province board. (4/3 would help with that i think) with both players vying for engine pieces (and with jester on board) you really have to watch piles. anyway, jonts pulls it off with my bad draw on the last turn. we end in 18 turns again, but with 4/3 we could probably shave off another turn. i'd say scrying pool/GM/vineyard over draw/bank probably something like 60/40.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2012, 04:18:29 pm »
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I have attached a word document with the log (opponent's name removed) and my thoughts. My thoughts are in red, to stand out, and I have *** in front of all of them in order for you guys to be able to skip through the clutter if you want.
Let me know of what you guys think, both of the game and my thoughts, and of the format.

RyanRomanik

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2012, 10:41:35 pm »
+1

Love the format!

On your opponent's turn 13, you should not take the curse in hand. Jester plus double Gold allows you to buy a Province regardless, and he is out of actions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 12:48:01 am »
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I have attached a word document with the log (opponent's name removed) and my thoughts. My thoughts are in red, to stand out, and I have *** in front of all of them in order for you guys to be able to skip through the clutter if you want.
Let me know of what you guys think, both of the game and my thoughts, and of the format.

It's interesting that most people in the thread seem to favour the engine, and that the engine beat your money strategy, but you still think money would win overall.  And I think I am with you on that, as I indicated earlier (though my thoughts were much more simplistic), but your opponent's last turn is impressive.
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jonts26

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 05:48:30 am »
+1

I have attached a word document with the log (opponent's name removed) and my thoughts. My thoughts are in red, to stand out, and I have *** in front of all of them in order for you guys to be able to skip through the clutter if you want.
Let me know of what you guys think, both of the game and my thoughts, and of the format.

It's interesting that most people in the thread seem to favour the engine, and that the engine beat your money strategy, but you still think money would win overall.  And I think I am with you on that, as I indicated earlier (though my thoughts were much more simplistic), but your opponent's last turn is impressive.

I'm still almost positive engine wins here. WW mentions where he made some mistakes, and that's fine, and an optimal big money probably beats his opponent here, because he has 22 turns to work with. But a better built engine is going to win in 18 or so turns. Jack/Masq will be close to piledriving provinces then depending on luck, but engine has a huge amount of end game control.
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brokoli

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 07:02:36 am »
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I have attached a word document with the log (opponent's name removed) and my thoughts. My thoughts are in red, to stand out, and I have *** in front of all of them in order for you guys to be able to skip through the clutter if you want.
Let me know of what you guys think, both of the game and my thoughts, and of the format.
Sorry... but I don't see the log !  :'(
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clb

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 10:50:34 am »
0

I have attached a word document with the log (opponent's name removed) and my thoughts. My thoughts are in red, to stand out, and I have *** in front of all of them in order for you guys to be able to skip through the clutter if you want.
Let me know of what you guys think, both of the game and my thoughts, and of the format.
Sorry... but I don't see the log !  :'(
Me, too. I see the paperclip, but there is nothing to open.
Brokoli - highlight the text and drag right - that's where I found the attachment.
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philosophyguy

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 11:08:56 am »
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Well, any engine players that want to try this set vs. big money as a collaborative exercise? For science and stuff.
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greatexpectations

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 11:17:39 am »
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Well, any engine players that want to try this set vs. big money as a collaborative exercise? For science and stuff.

me and jonts26 basically already did that a few posts up. i didn't try an explicit BM approach (i tried gardens instead), but jack or masq BM will both have trouble emptying 8 provinces in 18 turns to even have a chance at beating the engine.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 11:20:06 am by greatexpectations »
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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 11:18:31 am »
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Well, any engine players that want to try this set vs. big money as a collaborative exercise? For science and stuff.

me and jonts26 basically already did that a few posts up.

Wouldn't be science if the experiment was repeated by just one set of independent observers, now would it?  ;D
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greatexpectations

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2012, 11:29:35 am »
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I'm still almost positive engine wins here. WW mentions where he made some mistakes, and that's fine, and an optimal big money probably beats his opponent here, because he has 22 turns to work with. But a better built engine is going to win in 18 or so turns. Jack/Masq will be close to piledriving provinces then depending on luck, but engine has a huge amount of end game control.

WW can think that BM will work but i don't see it standing a chance against an engine builder over level 35 or so. i think that the steady accumulation of BM points gives a false sense of how effective BM is against the megaturn/mass greening of the engine and that a 35+ engine builder will win >95% of the games.
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DG

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2012, 12:51:03 pm »
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I think is almost too complicated a set a set for an annotated game. There are many card interactions between and within decks. Jester-masquerade, jack-torturer, masquerade-torturer, scying pool-jester, etc. The three pile ending is there but it's not clear who wants to guillotine the game and which alternate vp cards come into play at what times. Trashing your deck can become overtrashing with masquerades. There are at least two ways to build an engine, and so on. A lot of the play will actually come down to style when it comes to the top players, and a 'best' solution might be hard to find.

I think any reader of the article would be interested to know more about the types of engine available, how you might sequence the buys for that engine, and how it affects the attacks, defenses, and  3 pile finish.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:52:55 pm by DG »
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jonts26

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2012, 12:54:26 pm »
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I'm up for some science and I've got time to kill. Secret chamber lobby anyone?
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brokoli

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2012, 12:57:38 pm »
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Brokoli - highlight the text and drag right - that's where I found the attachment.

I still don't find it  :-[
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2012, 01:57:13 pm »
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So I should note that it's not so much that I was convinced BM was better, only that I thought it was.

Playing some test game with jonts, I am convinced otherwise.

But I still think it has a much better than 0 chance. Maybe 20%. Maybe 30.

jonts26

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2012, 02:30:48 pm »
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So I should note that it's not so much that I was convinced BM was better, only that I thought it was.

Playing some test game with jonts, I am convinced otherwise.

But I still think it has a much better than 0 chance. Maybe 20%. Maybe 30.

Well I was being somewhat hyperbolic when i said 0 chance of BM winning before. Still based on our games, I'd say it's not that good. 20% at most sounds reasonable. I don't think I'd go to 30. Basically, the games where I was slower to set up, you also got a bit unlucky. Had you had one of your faster goes then, you'd have won.
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GigaKnight

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2012, 02:58:22 pm »
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I don't see any discussion of a double Masquerade opening here.  Is that just obviously-bad?  Or is it just totally overshadowed by Masq/Jack?  My first thought would be to win the Masq war, getting Silvers along the way.  Then I expect to be hitting 5 consistently and throwing in a few Cities / Torturers until I'm hitting 6+ for GMs (and winging it from there).

Now that I describe it, it does sound a bit slow.  Jack is gaining Silver and trashing Estates at the same time, but I really don't want more than 3 or 4 Silver, right?  And one Masq isn't going to get rid of the Coppers very well.  But maybe that's not as big a deal as I tend to think it is.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2012, 03:42:57 pm »
0

So I should note that it's not so much that I was convinced BM was better, only that I thought it was.

Playing some test game with jonts, I am convinced otherwise.

But I still think it has a much better than 0 chance. Maybe 20%. Maybe 30.

Well I was being somewhat hyperbolic when i said 0 chance of BM winning before. Still based on our games, I'd say it's not that good. 20% at most sounds reasonable. I don't think I'd go to 30. Basically, the games where I was slower to set up, you also got a bit unlucky. Had you had one of your faster goes then, you'd have won.
I agree.  I would guess it's like 15% how I was playing, probably you can get up to 20 or maaaaaaaybe 25 if you are very clever.
Logs (if we rolled colonies, we ignored them, as we were playing for SCIENCE!):
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/17/game-20121217-104233-eab89d33.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/17/game-20121217-104942-fe0a9e77.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/17/game-20121217-105551-bc23c5b1.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/17/game-20121217-110314-0461be27.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/17/game-20121217-111336-869b9b8c.html

I think I might have missed one or two.

dondon151

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 04:46:30 am »
+1

I still can't fathom how a money strategy would be able to win against an engine strategy played by a player that is even remotely tactically aware.

The money strategy doesn't have an endgame. The 2 scenarios for ending the game are emptying out the Provinces or 3-piling. How long does it take for Jack-BM to get all 8 Provinces when not being attacked? 20 turns? jonts was able to outscore 48 VP in 20 turns for every single game. What 3 piles is the money strategy going to run down? Gardens and Curses seem possible (if the money player is taking all 10 of the Curses). Third pile doesn't seem likely if the engine strategy just takes 7 Cities instead of 10 or something similar.

Meanwhile, the engine strategy has access to all sorts of VP. It can grab a Province or a Gardens here and there, and the Gardens are actually worth more to the engine since it picks up more cards. Vineyards is its own little VP reservoir all to itself, and the engine has, what, a nearly uncontested supply of 30+ Action cards (at least most of the Cities, GMs, Torturers, and SPs)? 8 10-VP Vineyards ties 8 Provinces + 8 4-VP Gardens. The engine can probably ignore Provinces and Gardens entirely and still outscore the money strategy.

So paint me confused. I would say that even a 1% win rate for the money strategy is a generous estimate.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 04:47:54 am by dondon151 »
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Davio

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 05:16:04 am »
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This is the link to the attachment: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5863.0;attach=711

I think the main issue here, as mentioned before, is control.
The engine player has perfect control over this game, the money player has very little.
If you're the one with the engine you can more easily manipulate the (end) game state by emptying piles or grabbing some Provinces or even double Duchies. The best the money player can do is just buy one card each turn.

That's where the real advantage for the engine player comes from, the fact that he can end or prolong the game on his own terms. If you're not quite there points wise, slow it down. If you have a lead, try to end it.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 05:18:46 am by Davio »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WWAG #2
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 07:34:38 am »
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I still can't fathom how a money strategy would be able to win against an engine strategy played by a player that is even remotely tactically aware.

The money strategy doesn't have an endgame. The 2 scenarios for ending the game are emptying out the Provinces or 3-piling. How long does it take for Jack-BM to get all 8 Provinces when not being attacked? 20 turns? jonts was able to outscore 48 VP in 20 turns for every single game. What 3 piles is the money strategy going to run down? Gardens and Curses seem possible (if the money player is taking all 10 of the Curses). Third pile doesn't seem likely if the engine strategy just takes 7 Cities instead of 10 or something similar.

Meanwhile, the engine strategy has access to all sorts of VP. It can grab a Province or a Gardens here and there, and the Gardens are actually worth more to the engine since it picks up more cards. Vineyards is its own little VP reservoir all to itself, and the engine has, what, a nearly uncontested supply of 30+ Action cards (at least most of the Cities, GMs, Torturers, and SPs)? 8 10-VP Vineyards ties 8 Provinces + 8 4-VP Gardens. The engine can probably ignore Provinces and Gardens entirely and still outscore the money strategy.

So paint me confused. I would say that even a 1% win rate for the money strategy is a generous estimate.
A double-jack can drain the provinces as fast as 18 turns a reasonable percentage of the time, iirc. If I ever work out how to get the simulator back up, I can give you a better answer on that.
The other thing is emptying piles occasionally. Yes, jonts scores a zillion more points than that, but he also takes it to the brink of three piling like every time, and if you are sharp, you can potentially do something with gardens. Or at least have the threat of this to slow the opponent down a touch. Anyway, less than 1% is ridiculous - engine can definitely draw quite a bit worse than he did, money can draw better.
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