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Author Topic: WW Annotated Game #1  (Read 3740 times)

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WanderingWinder

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WW Annotated Game #1
« on: December 08, 2012, 02:32:14 pm »
+5

I'm starting a series of reports, maybe once a week or so, of analyzing games I've played, similar to what used to go on the main blog. I'll post the set, let there be some discussion, then talk about what happened in the game.

The following cards come from a game I played recently against Stef. Please feel free to discuss the strategy you would go for here. I'll post my thoughts and the game later this week. Probably like Tuesday.

cards in supply: Bazaar, Cache, Colony, Forge, Gardens, Hamlet, Pawn, Platinum, Secret Chamber♦, Tournament, Worker's Village, Workshop, and Young Witch

philosophyguy

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 02:58:21 pm »
0

I'd be shocked if it's not a Gardens game, but there's so many possible enablers that I don't know what to do. Workshop, WV, Hamlet, Pawn, and Secret Chamber are all great at the <$5 level, and Cache is great if you hit an early $5.

My guess is open WS/WS, go Gardens on $4, WS on #4, and Hamlet on $2, always using the Hamlet for a +Buy/Copper unless that stops you from getting a Gardens.
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jonts26

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 03:25:03 pm »
0

I'd be shocked if this was a gardens game. Colony is too strong and workshop is a mediocre gardens enabler. How many turns do you think it would take to empty 3 piles? I'm guessing 18-20ish. I need maybe 3 Colonies in that time. Very doable.

Actually it could come down to gardens points if curses start flying early and fast and I can't get up to $7 or $9 quickly enough. But there's no way you can ignore YW.
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philosophyguy

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 03:49:38 pm »
0

I'd be happy to be wrong, since it would mean I'm learning something useful. But I'm just not seeing a quick way to Colonies.

There's no net card draw, so lining up Forge to get rid of low-value cards is very tough. The only cards that give money are cantrip coppers or worse (Bazaar, Tournament, Pawn). So the economy is going to be money-based, and that's slow for getting to $11.

YW is a good attack, and you're probably right that I need to adjust my strategy in light of that. But, Secret Chamber is actually a phenomenal Bane if you're going for Gardens, since SC is a guaranteed $4.

Maybe a combination of YW/SC going into Gardens with Hamlet support? YW's cursing will make Colonies even slower and will provide useful cycling for the Gardens deck.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012, 04:14:57 pm »
0

I solitaired Workshop/Worker's Village a few times and it is very very fast. I had most games end in 16-18 turns with 6 point Gardens. Seems like using Young Witch would make it even easier for the Gardens player to end the game early. Normally I would also advise against Gardens on a Colony board, and I think if there was any sort of card draw here then Colonies would be a must, but without that I'm not sure you can actually get enough Colonies in time.
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jonts26

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2012, 04:17:25 pm »
0

I solitaired Workshop/Worker's Village a few times and it is very very fast. I had most games end in 16-18 turns with 6 point Gardens. Seems like using Young Witch would make it even easier for the Gardens player to end the game early. Normally I would also advise against Gardens on a Colony board, and I think if there was any sort of card draw here then Colonies would be a must, but without that I'm not sure you can actually get enough Colonies in time.

Well if you're getting 6 point gardens in 18 turns forget what I said.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 04:28:30 pm »
0

I played a little more, and I probably exaggerated a bit with the 16-18 estimation, 16-20 turns seems more likely. I still think it would take pretty good luck from the Colony player to win.
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DG

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2012, 06:02:01 pm »
0

I think I would be tempted to change my strategy in second seat based on my opponent's opening purchase.
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-Stef-

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 10:44:37 am »
+10

Hmm, not quite sure how to respond to this. But I don't like it, so I'll just try to describe how I feel.

This friday I was sick. Saturday morning still at home I wanted to do something and although I knew I wouldn't play great I ended up playing Dominion. Becuase, well, I like playing Dominion. I was matched against WanderingWinder, and I played this game really very very badly. After the game I said something like "gg. Very nicely played. I sort of bought random cards and had really no clue what I was doing."

Now you can respond to that in several different ways. First of all, I would appreciate it if you said something back at all in the chat. It kind of a feels awkward when I type 4 different lines in the chat (including the 'hi, good luck') and don't get anything back. If you don't feel like that, you could go and post something like "Hey, you can get to the #1 spot even though you play terrible from time to time" or maybe something like "I played against Stef and won by a mile and I'm very happy about it". Those would be ok with me for sure; I mean it's me who decided to play anyway and then I have to live with the consequences.

But to turn it into an annotated game?
Those are for great games, where both players play good and maybe make very few mistakes that can be analyzed.

That said, I really like the idea of annotating games, just please pick a different one. This might have been an interesting set, it definitely wasn't an interesting game.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 11:23:11 am »
0

Hmm, not quite sure how to respond to this. But I don't like it, so I'll just try to describe how I feel.

This friday I was sick. Saturday morning still at home I wanted to do something and although I knew I wouldn't play great I ended up playing Dominion. Becuase, well, I like playing Dominion. I was matched against WanderingWinder, and I played this game really very very badly. After the game I said something like "gg. Very nicely played. I sort of bought random cards and had really no clue what I was doing."

Now you can respond to that in several different ways. First of all, I would appreciate it if you said something back at all in the chat. It kind of a feels awkward when I type 4 different lines in the chat (including the 'hi, good luck') and don't get anything back. If you don't feel like that, you could go and post something like "Hey, you can get to the #1 spot even though you play terrible from time to time" or maybe something like "I played against Stef and won by a mile and I'm very happy about it". Those would be ok with me for sure; I mean it's me who decided to play anyway and then I have to live with the consequences.

But to turn it into an annotated game?
Those are for great games, where both players play good and maybe make very few mistakes that can be analyzed.

That said, I really like the idea of annotating games, just please pick a different one. This might have been an interesting set, it definitely wasn't an interesting game.

We all play bad sometimes. Good players get a lot of crap when they lose. I don't know why people do that, bu it happens. I'm pretty sure it has happened more to me than anyone in this game. And I'm not doing that here. I'm not saying 'man, this is the best this guy can play, he must suck.' I think we all know that you DON'T in fact suck, that you're one of the handful of very best players there is.

Sometimes, I am just playing a lot and not saying anything to my opponent. In fact, that happens a LOT nowadays. I don't chat so much. Man, I could complain about these guys annoying me all the time by trying to talk to me during the game. But I don't, you know, it's okay. They do things differently from me, and I can live with that - it just doesn't matter that much, you should let some stuff slide.

You don't have the right to tell me I can't annotate one of my own games. It's an unrealistic request. I firmly disagree that annotated games are for 'great games, where both players play good and maybe make very few mistakes that can be analyzed.' Man, that just doesn't happen. If you had such a strict requirement, no games would make it. If you let opponent have right of refusal, and if everyone were as uptight as you, again, no annotated games. So I'm going to post this anyway. Look at the games which have been annotated on the blog, and there were big errors in all of them.

To me, the great thing about the annotated games is you get big debates as to how to best play 'interesting' sets, and then you get a breakdown of how one game played out with a couple of those strategies. And how you can get into those strategies, how games progress, and whatnot.

Anyway, they won't all be against you. But I did know that I would likely annotate this one before we played it - the set was interesting.

Young Nick

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 01:27:59 pm »
0

While I agree, WW, that it is true that you have every right to annotate one of your games, Stef is just asking for some common courtesy. It does seem like a rather strange request, to not annotate a game, but it is one for sure.

He says it's not an interesting game, one not worthy of annotating. You say there should be no requirements. Except for, ya know, this:
To me, the great thing about the annotated games is you get big debates as to how to best play 'interesting' sets, and then you get a breakdown of how one game played out with a couple of those strategies. And how you can get into those strategies, how games progress, and whatnot.

Now if you think that's interesting, then go ahead. But all Stef was saying is that he didn't think it worthy of deep analysis.

Also this:
Sometimes, I am just playing a lot and not saying anything to my opponent. In fact, that happens a LOT nowadays. I don't chat so much. Man, I could complain about these guys annoying me all the time by trying to talk to me during the game. But I don't, you know, it's okay.

Please, I just don't think anyone in their right mind would say they can complain about someone being friendly/chatty by saying "hi" or "good luck." You don't have to respond, yeah, but do not complain about someone saying something as innocent as that. That just looks like you making BS arguments to support your larger point about having a right to annotate a game.

Having said all of that, I hope it is an interesting game, worthy of the annotation and controversy surrounding.
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brokoli

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 01:33:31 pm »
0

I think this is a game for gardens. Gardens counter young witch and followers very well...
Also, while I agree with Stef about the chat discussion, I think this set worth an annoted game. Even if both players played very poorly, we learn of our mistakes. And this set is definitely interesting.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 01:50:10 pm »
0

While I agree, WW, that it is true that you have every right to annotate one of your games, Stef is just asking for some common courtesy.
This is not common courtesy. He's asking for uncommon courtesy.
Quote
It does seem like a rather strange request, to not annotate a game, but it is one for sure.
One... request? I don't disagree that it's a request. But just because its' a request doesn't mean there is necessarily an obligation to honor it.

Quote
He says it's not an interesting game, one not worthy of annotating. You say there should be no requirements. Except for, ya know, this:
To me, the great thing about the annotated games is you get big debates as to how to best play 'interesting' sets, and then you get a breakdown of how one game played out with a couple of those strategies. And how you can get into those strategies, how games progress, and whatnot.

Now if you think that's interesting, then go ahead. But all Stef was saying is that he didn't think it worthy of deep analysis.
Well this is the point I am making. I don't think there should be *no* requirements. I think it is an interesting enough board to merit analysis. He can disagree, of course, but I am the one doing the annotating.

Quote
Also this:
Sometimes, I am just playing a lot and not saying anything to my opponent. In fact, that happens a LOT nowadays. I don't chat so much. Man, I could complain about these guys annoying me all the time by trying to talk to me during the game. But I don't, you know, it's okay.

Please, I just don't think anyone in their right mind would say they can complain about someone being friendly/chatty by saying "hi" or "good luck." You don't have to respond, yeah, but do not complain about someone saying something as innocent as that.
THAT is not what I am talking about. I mean people who do more than this. "I read your comments and can you tell me this about yourself." "Where are you from" "How old are you" "I want you to make a video about topic X/Y/Z" "(endless complaining about luck factors" "Man, that was a really bad beat you took" - Again, it's not that I think they are mean-spirited, and I don't complain - that is my point, I don't complain. All I am saying is that you should also not complain about NOT saying anything.

Quote
That just looks like you making BS arguments to support your larger point about having a right to annotate a game.

Having said all of that, I hope it is an interesting game, worthy of the annotation and controversy surrounding.

Well, I would guess that Stef is upset because he did not play it as well as he would have liked. But such is the case for most games I play, yet it's totally unwarranted for me to request nobody to comment.

Polk5440

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2012, 02:15:38 pm »
0

I would take it upon myself to avoid every obvious strategy in sight and then proceed to lose.

Kidding aside (sort of), I think I would open Young Witch/Silver on 4/3. Buy Silver on 3,4, Gold on 6, Bazaar on 5, Hamlet on 2 until reaching 7 then buy a Forge (maybe pick up a second if opportunity arises). Forge into Platinums/Colonies, thin deck, go for buying Colonies. If ahead (lol), Forge Colonies into Colonies to end the game. Also, I would not buy more than one YW, and Forge it away well before emptying the Curse pile if my opponent went Workshop/Gardens.

As far as annotated games go, when I read one, I hope there is one main lesson or takeaway I can learn from it and the game clearly illustrates that point. I don't care if the players are good players, bad players, or good players who had a bad day, or someone tried something silly that didn't work. I just want to learn something from it which may improve my own play: what's interesting about the kingdom or a player's strategy? Were there tactics that went awry?
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cherdano

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 02:22:09 pm »
+2

I admit my main thought is "this community was actually nicer without WW".
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Davio

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 02:23:23 pm »
+2

I think it's common courtesy to at least respond to an opening line in the chat such as "gl" or "hf" to acknowledge the other player.

Now I'm not that chatty myself and I rarely started off saying "hi", but if my opponent took a couple of seconds to jot something down, I would always respond with a simple "hf gl" or something like that. I wouldn't let them wait for an answer that was never coming. Often enough I would play a game with both parties not saying anything the entire game and I was fine with that as well.

But I understand that you'll probably get more crap than the rest, because you put yourself out there, WW, so I understand when you don't feel like talking. That doesn't mean you can just sit there without acknowledging the other person. Well, you can, I just don't think it's very polite.

I think Stef just feels disrespected and that's part of the reason he doesn't want this game annotated, but he's also not saying: "I would like to forbid you from annotating this game." No, he just says: "Pick another, more interesting one."

So I don't know what actually happened here, but this thread derailed way too quickly without it needing to. Sure, it's not fun when your opponent doesn't respond to you in the chat and you might feel "cheated" seeing your opponent wants to turn that game into an annotated game. And also you might get suspicious when an opponent requests not to annotate your game.

But you're both being way too defensive here.
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Young Nick

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 02:54:06 pm »
+1

But you're both being way too defensive here.
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rod-

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 02:54:51 pm »
0

I admit that when i play lately, the chat window might as well not exist.  My brain just blanks it out like an ad.  I don't get any satisfaction out of exchanging "hi gl gg" with faceless nameless strangers that i probably will never see again, and if i want to talk strategy, there's this forum.

I'm not defending WW's reaction to Stef's overreaction, but at least on the charge of being impolite...I can't make myself care.  The "can i annotate this game" topic has come up before, and the general consensus was that if you have an indication that your opponent doesn't want to be known, you can obscure his name.

Do that.  It's obviously too late for this game, but it's no trouble at all to search/replace in game logs before you start your annotations.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 03:32:35 pm »
0

Do that.  It's obviously too late for this game, but it's no trouble at all to search/replace in game logs before you start your annotations.
Huh? The files are online - I can't change them. Can I?
If this were possible, I'd do it, obviously.

rrenaud

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2012, 03:53:04 pm »
0

Make a copy, find/replace, host it somewhere?  Dropbox makes hosting files super easy.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2012, 03:57:27 pm »
0

I'm not going to host anything.

rrenaud

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2012, 04:01:07 pm »
+1

If you wanted a sure fire and not too limiting way to make sure you don't upset people, only annotate games you lose.

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rrenaud

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2012, 04:05:43 pm »
+1

It's not really you hosting it, dropbox hosts it.  It's probably easier than uploading videos to youtube.  It would also let you annotate the game inline.
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-Stef-

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2012, 04:39:25 pm »
+6

So... this sort of spins out of control.

There's no need to host anything yourself, or even try to anonymize this game if you could without hosting anything. My name being in there is not the problem. If you really want to annotate it... go right ahead. The worst that could happen now is that you annotate a rather boring game. One player plays well and the other rather stupid, probably worse then the Goko bots would play it. He loses badly, as he should. End of story.

The psychology of this discussion is already far more interesting then the game itself. I chat to you that I played this game horribly, and in stead of responding and having a good laugh about it together, you move away silently and announce analyzing the game. I really don't understand your actions here, but the great thing about this life is: I don't have to. As long as I can live with my own actions, and am capable of expressing my own feelings, all will be well.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.
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theory

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Re: WW Annotated Game #1
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2012, 04:47:40 pm »
+2

I don't think annotated games should require permission from both players, since sometimes you have an interesting set even if one person mucks up the game.

Maybe it's a bit rude to ignore someone in chat and then annotate a win against them where they played really poorly, and heck I'd be pretty annoyed by that too.  But whatever, some people just don't ever chat, and we all have bad games sometimes, so I don't think anyone would think worse of you, -Stef-.

Ideally you would immediately ask your opponent if it's OK for you to write up the game.  If they really don't want to, then erase their name from the log or whatever, or propose the set to them again.  But sometimes you don't think to write it up until afterwards, and then you don't necessarily have a chance to talk about it with the opponent.
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