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Author Topic: Announcing Dominion Set Generator  (Read 39839 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 08:41:18 pm »
0

I strongly disagree with the implication that a board needs an engine to be interesting. Most of my favorite cards thrive in the absence of a viable engine.

you are just nitpicking here mate. obviously there will still be some boards without engines that are still going to be interesting. and if you prefer boards without engines well hey that's your opinion. but if other people were of that same mentality then would just play full random and take what they got. if they are going out of their way to use this sort of tool, they are most likely looking for some sort of board with interesting engine options.

i'm not sitting here trying to make any bold statement on which board is best. i'm just explaining the rationale for why people using this tool might prefer to see these types of cards.

That's all well and good, unless they build this into Goko as the only randomization option.
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Tables

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2012, 09:19:27 pm »
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Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.

??? Why would you dislike having an extra option for randomizing? If you don't like it, you wouldn't use it, but personally, I'd love to have this available as an option.
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jonts26

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2012, 09:45:36 pm »
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Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.

Why? This is basically what I suggested they do. Well, part of it. What I said was it would be nice to have a way to bias towards games which are more balanced, i.e. have a village, card draw, trashing, etc. But I made sure to tell them this is just an option. Keep a full random option for sure. Also I told them that this much configurability was too much for the common user and to only include these types of things in advanced settings. The main settings can just have a handful of bias checkmarks (balanced, full random, attack heavy, no attacks, etc).
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greatexpectations

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2012, 09:58:51 pm »
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it bears remembering that goko has a target audience that will include people outside of this forum. not all will be as serious fans of dominion, and the more casual dominion player might be quite interested in this, especially for gaming with friends.
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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 10:57:31 pm »
+1

I read the notes but I still don't get how the algorithm works or how it determines "interesting" kingdoms... can anyone explain in small words in English what the basic idea of the code is?

Bumping my question ahead of goko stuff...
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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 11:06:06 pm »
+1

Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.
What I said was it would be nice to have a way to bias towards games which are more balanced, i.e. have a village, card draw, trashing, etc.
I.E. unbalanced boards where engines are almost always the way to go?

LastFootnote

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 11:12:39 pm »
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Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.

Why? This is basically what I suggested they do. Well, part of it. What I said was it would be nice to have a way to bias towards games which are more balanced, i.e. have a village, card draw, trashing, etc. But I made sure to tell them this is just an option. Keep a full random option for sure. Also I told them that this much configurability was too much for the common user and to only include these types of things in advanced settings. The main settings can just have a handful of bias checkmarks (balanced, full random, attack heavy, no attacks, etc).

As long as it's just an option, that's completely fine. I'm just worried they'll build it in as the automatic randomization algorithm for Pro-ranked games. If that's not going to happen, cool.

I agree that in general, more options are good. Personally, I'd like an option to limit the total number of sets included in a board of 10 cards. I enjoy playing games with 5 cards each from 2 sets or ≈3 cards from 3 sets. A lot of marginal cards like Scout and Contraband are much more useful when matched with more cards from their set.
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jonts26

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 11:12:57 pm »
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Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.
What I said was it would be nice to have a way to bias towards games which are more balanced, i.e. have a village, card draw, trashing, etc.
I.E. unbalanced boards where engines are almost always the way to go?

Defining balanced as including more various types of cards. If you want to call that unbalanced, whatevs. We can call it engine biased or something if you'd like. Point is, that should be an option. Probably not for pro leaderboard but for casual why not.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2012, 12:51:27 am »
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Um, is this actually being built into Goko? Please say no.
What I said was it would be nice to have a way to bias towards games which are more balanced, i.e. have a village, card draw, trashing, etc.
I.E. unbalanced boards where engines are almost always the way to go?

How about boards where BM is the only way to go. Isn't that unbalanced as well?
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onigame

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 03:05:01 am »
+2

I agree that in general, more options are good. Personally, I'd like an option to limit the total number of sets included in a board of 10 cards. I enjoy playing games with 5 cards each from 2 sets or ≈3 cards from 3 sets. A lot of marginal cards like Scout and Contraband are much more useful when matched with more cards from their set.

Then you should be glad to know that clustering sets is one of the biases in the Set Generator's current default settings.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 09:49:24 am »
0

I would suggest using more common parlance.  e.g. instead of "splitter", say "village".  Or "non-terminal" instead of "chainer".

I actually donít have a problem with these terms.

Yeah, we all know what is meant by "village," but technically not all villages are really villages. City, Shanty Town, and Bandit Camp are not villages. This could confuse a new player who hasn't been playing the game since base, when the only way to get +2 Actions was to play a card named Village. And "splitter" has an appropriate visual reference. If you lay the cards down as you play them, then you can visualize the actions splitting.

This visualization also makes sense for "chainers," though I agree that "non-terminal" is also accurate. Actually, I favor "non-terminal" more, since by these definitions, cantrips and splitters are subsets of chainers, but that's all splitting hairs. The fact is that the terms are defined; no matter what terms are used, players likely will have to get used to the terminology.
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clb

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2012, 02:15:43 pm »
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Hey, just wanted to give you a heads up (if you weren't already aware) that there are two boxes between "Hinterlands 2" and "Dark Ages 1" where I would expect to see only one check box for DA1.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 02:26:17 pm by clb »
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onigame

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2012, 12:14:12 am »
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Mm, that checkbox is supposed to be invisible... care to tell me what browser you're using?
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werothegreat

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2012, 12:59:27 am »
+2

Guilds checkbox?
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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2012, 06:19:01 am »
+1

Now that CouncilRoom is back up, it would be totally frickin' awesome to do some datamining to discover interesting interactions between cards and base sets on that, minimizing the number of "wasted" card slots.
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clb

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2012, 01:43:30 am »
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Mm, that checkbox is supposed to be invisible... care to tell me what browser you're using?

IE 8
Sorry - it is a work computer, and I don't get to pick which browser I get to use (or the version). :(
I have also tried it on Mozilla, whatever Blackberry runs, Chrome, and whatever Kindle uses and did not see the mystery box.
Incidentally, in IE8, the sets don't generate - the page comes up with an error and flickers but doesn't display anything.

Could I make a request? Would you mind (if you have tons of spare time!  :P) making a feature to swap out one of the cards in the displayed kingdom? I have no idea how much work that woudl entail, so it may not be worth it to you. We used the generator extensively on Friday and loved it, but we found that some cards were favorites of the algorithm (checked all the boxes and left everything at default). Toward the end of the night, we would remove the one or two cards from the generated set that we had already seen numerous times that evening and replace them with something else. It would be awesome if the generator could do that, but if not, we can continue on in analogue mode.
Thanks!!
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onigame

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 05:04:57 am »
+1

Incidentally, in IE8, the sets don't generate - the page comes up with an error and flickers but doesn't display anything.

Yes, I'm sorry about that.  I really should learn how to use Closure.  It's on the task list.  :)

Quote
Could I make a request? Would you mind (if you have tons of spare time!  :P) making a feature to swap out one of the cards in the displayed kingdom? Toward the end of the night, we would remove the one or two cards from the generated set that we had already seen numerous times that evening and replace them with something else.

Sounds like what you want is the ability to write some card names and say "don't put these cards in my set".  It's on the planned feature list, so I will prioritize it (in my spare time).  However, I'd like to know, if you're willing, which cards you felt you were seeing too much.  I would still like to tweak the main selection rules somewhat and that feedback would be useful.
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clb

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 11:58:20 pm »
0


Sounds like what you want is the ability to write some card names and say "don't put these cards in my set".  It's on the planned feature list, so I will prioritize it (in my spare time).  However, I'd like to know, if you're willing, which cards you felt you were seeing too much.  I would still like to tweak the main selection rules somewhat and that feedback would be useful.

I understand that this is something you are doing because you are awesome, so I won't whine and complain if things don't happen.
The card that was the stand-out in my memory was Familiar - it showed up in at least half of the decks we generated. I will ask the guys I played with if they remember any others. We may be using it again on Friday - if so, I will let you know what seems to show up a lot.
Thanks for working on it!
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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2013, 09:46:54 am »
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This is a really neat concept.

I've been using it with DA, Intrigue, and Prosperity, and the generator seems to put at least 2 of peddler/grand market/workers village into at least half of the sets I generate.

I think peddler is the one of the 3 i see most often
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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2013, 01:00:50 pm »
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This card picker: http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/ has a very nice function - once the set is generated, there is a veto button under each card. If you don't want it, just click it and the card is replaced. Adding such thing should solve problems with cards that appear (or you feel they appear) too often.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2013, 01:03:36 pm »
0

This card picker: http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/ has a very nice function - once the set is generated, there is a veto button under each card. If you don't want it, just click it and the card is replaced. Adding such thing should solve problems with cards that appear (or you feel they appear) too often.

That sounds like a band-aid to avoid addressing the actual problem.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 03:39:08 pm by LastFootnote »
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hsiale

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2013, 03:40:51 am »
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It depends on what the actual problem really is. If the problem is the generator returning some cards more often, then you're right (and some big scale testing is needed to verify this, find the reason and fix). But it may well be that the problem is users seeing some card (most often a card they don't like, and Familiar is not a popular card) as appearing very often while in reality it doesn't. I also sometimes feel that Iso is throwing Possession or Mountebank on me every second game.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2013, 03:37:45 pm »
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It depends on what the actual problem really is. If the problem is the generator returning some cards more often, then you're right (and some big scale testing is needed to verify this, find the reason and fix). But it may well be that the problem is users seeing some card (most often a card they don't like, and Familiar is not a popular card) as appearing very often while in reality it doesn't. I also sometimes feel that Iso is throwing Possession or Mountebank on me every second game.

Onigame has readily admitted that his set generator includes some cards more often than others. He has no plans to fix it. It's an integral part of the algorithm, apparently.

EDIT: Here's the relevant post.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 04:03:37 pm by LastFootnote »
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werothegreat

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2013, 03:42:45 pm »
0

The Goko card picker, as is, will throw up Monument super often, almost always has about three Attacks in it, and almost never has Pirate Ship.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Announcing Dominion Set Generator
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2013, 04:04:51 pm »
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The Goko card picker, as is, will throw up Monument super often, almost always has about three Attacks in it, and almost never has Pirate Ship.

I haven't had that experience. I see Pirate Ship quite a bit, and don't see Monument that often. I think you're overstating the ratio of Attack cards, but it's possible that it biases sets toward them.
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