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Author Topic: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?  (Read 3620 times)

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krawhitham

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Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« on: September 05, 2011, 07:25:52 am »
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So out of the following, which one card would you like to see as a full kingdom set (not a prize, just available for buy):


Bag of Gold
+1 Action
 Gain a Gold, putting it on top of your deck.
 

Diadem
Worth $2.
 When you play this, +$1 per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
 
Followers
+2 Cards
 Gain an Estate. Each other player gains a Curse and discards down to 3 cards in hand.
 

Princess
+1 Buy
 While this is in play, cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
 
Trusty Steed
Choose two: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +$2; or gain 4 Silvers and put your deck into your discard pile.


For me I think Diadem would be the most interesting, because it can create a decision whether to play more action cards or take the money.

Princess and Trusty Steed would be a little powerful, but I'm sure there are some good opinions out there.
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Davio

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 07:40:53 am »
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Well, I think any can be in the regular Supply, because they all have their uses.

The hard part is giving them the right price.

Trusty Steed is definitely better than a Lab, but if you make it $6 you can compare it to a GM and GM even has the buy restriction. So is it better than GM? I don't think so, maybe $6 is a good price.

Followers is a little hard to gauge, sure the attack is brutal, but it hampers you as well. Sure would be funny to have it in the Supply with Baron. It's a Torturer with both options applied, so maybe $6 here?

Bag of Gold, if we make it too cheap, it will be too easy to get Golds. So should we make it as expensive as or even more expansive than Gold? Maybe so. $7 here? The +1 Action makes it especially juicy, since you can always play it.

Diadem, this is a card that should be handled with care, since it can be insane if a deck is built around it (Fishing Villages for example) or worthless in decks with few +Actions. I don't see this costing more than $5, maybe even $4. It's hard to get $3 out of it as you would with a Gold.

Princess, the obvious comparison is Bridge, but this can't be TR'd or KC'd and Bridge can, which makes it worth just a little more. Bridge costs $4, so I think $5 is alright.


Pricing cards is somewhat new to me, so I'm going by feel; if you think some are way off, please say so and more importantly, tell us why.

We have to keep in mind why these cards became prizes, maybe it was because they couldn't be priced right...

Donald says:
Quote
The Prizes wanted to be cards that I wasn't "wasting" as Prizes. Cards that I couldn't do normally, because they were too hard to price well, or were too powerful in multiples, or too narrow. You don't always have extra actions for Diadem, but you can just take another Prize instead; it's not a whole unused pile.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 07:42:54 am by Davio »
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guided

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 08:55:34 am »
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I like them better as prizes than as supply piles.

-Diadem is considered a mediocre prize, but that's because you can only have 1. It's maybe a $6 card if you can only have one copy. But put it on the board as a full supply pile with say Worker's Village, and how much would you pay for it?

-Princess is probably costable and probably about a $7 card. I don't really see a problem making it a supply pile. But how often would you really buy it? It's perfect as a prize, getting it right in the endgame for a quick Province/Duchy or Province/Province buy.

-Followers is stronger than any normal action card in the game. I don't see pricing it lower than $8, and is it interesting as a supply pile at that price? I'm not sure.

-Ditto Trusty Steed. Maybe you could get away with a $7 price (as opposed to $8), and if so it might be an interesting card.

-Bag of Gold might be a workable $7 card, but it's another one that might be kind of overpowered to get early in the game. It's about right in the power curve as a prize: by the time you've invested the effort to win a prize, it's late enough in the game that Bag of Gold is a pretty balanced card (since the Gold doesn't necessarily come into play the same turn you play the card, and you only play BoG a couple/few times before the game's over).
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Davio

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 09:10:51 am »
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The problem with making any card $8 is whether it will ever be chosen over a Province. Early in the game and in Colony games, sure, but in regular Province depletion games, I doubt it.
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guided

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 02:51:07 pm »
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Yes, that's the main reason I think an $8 Followers pile would not be interesting! But I think it would be undercosted at $7. It's simply better than any purchasable action card in the game.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 02:55:54 pm »
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2 minutes work to turn Followers into an $8 Kingdom card in my simulator and BMU+1 Followers beats the hell out of BMU (65-35 something)... So $8 might be too low :)
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DStu

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 02:52:44 am »
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2 minutes work to turn Followers into an $8 Kingdom card in my simulator and BMU+1 Followers beats the hell out of BMU (65-35 something)... So $8 might be too low :)

Yeah, because Single_X beating BMU 65-35 really tells us that X is overpowered ;)
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chwhite

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 03:02:43 am »
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For simplicity's sake, I'd be tempted to price them all at $7.  This is probably a bit too high for Diadem, which would be useless in a set without Villages, and maybe for Princess too if you interpret that card to mean that two Princesses would still only lower the cost of cards by $2.  Steed and Followers are obviously powerful enough to be $7 (remember that the "gain an Estate" part of Followers is a penalty!), and I think Bag of Gold is too: it's fairly weak as a Prize, but would be that strong if you could get it before buying Provinces.

So, Diadem at $6, Princess at $6 or $7, the others at $7.  Since even King's Court is only a $7, I can't imagine going to $8, and I don't think even the power Prizes need to be higher.

ED: Come to think of it, maybe Diadem and Princess oughtn't ever be a Supply pile.  Diadem is just too situational, and Princess feels like it needs to be unique: it would be overpriced if you can't ever stack it, but just too abusive if four of them is enough to make Provinces free.  I think the other three would work as Supply piles at $7 without any problem.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 03:05:53 am by chwhite »
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guided

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 10:24:07 am »
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Certainly Princess would stack if you had multiples. Same as Goons.

Diadem only seems so situational because at present you can only have one, and only late in the game. Again, imagine seeing it on the board as a supply pile alongside Worker's Village.
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chwhite

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 02:46:05 pm »
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Certainly Princess would stack if you had multiples. Same as Goons.

Diadem only seems so situational because at present you can only have one, and only late in the game. Again, imagine seeing it on the board as a supply pile alongside Worker's Village.

Right, but then imagine seeing it on the board with zero Villages.
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guided

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 02:55:21 pm »
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Right, but then imagine seeing it on the board with zero Villages.
Imagine seeing Village on the board with no enginey terminals!

Diadem as a supply pile wouldn't even make the top 5 most situational cards. It'd be a solid buy, like, 10x more often than Counting House or Coppersmith.
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Epoch

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 03:06:41 pm »
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Right, but then imagine seeing it on the board with zero Villages.
Imagine seeing Village on the board with no enginey terminals!

Diadem as a supply pile wouldn't even make the top 5 most situational cards. It'd be a solid buy, like, 10x more often than Counting House or Coppersmith.

In a deck without terminal Actions, it's guaranteed as good as a Gold, right?  I mean, it couldn't be priced at $5 or lower.  I agree with guided, it's very solid.

EDIT:  And it'd be an irritating card, too.  At $5 (especially!) or $6, then the likely scenarios are:

1.  It's useless and ignored.
2.  It makes the dominant strategy a really boring BMU variant (for example, see it with Fishing Village or Caravan).

"Case #3: it's used in an interesting way" seems like it's gotta be less than a 5% scenario.

Contemplate just how terrifyingly fast and utterly thoughtless a game would be which involved a $5 Diadem and Fishing Village.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 03:29:52 pm by Epoch »
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michaeljb

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 03:22:33 pm »
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2 minutes work to turn Followers into an $8 Kingdom card in my simulator and BMU+1 Followers beats the hell out of BMU (65-35 something)... So $8 might be too low :)

Have you seen BMU+1 Witch vs BMU? ;)
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rinkworks

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 04:13:46 pm »
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Right, but then imagine seeing it on the board with zero Villages.
Imagine seeing Village on the board with no enginey terminals!

Diadem as a supply pile wouldn't even make the top 5 most situational cards. It'd be a solid buy, like, 10x more often than Counting House or Coppersmith.

Village is usable (not necessarily optimal, but usable to the extent of its ability) with any terminals, not just "enginey" terminals.  Not really a fair comparison.

The thing is, Donald has already been through this thought process with Diadem and concluded it was just too situational for a regular kingdom card.

Quote
The Prizes wanted to be cards that I wasn't "wasting" as Prizes. Cards that I couldn't do normally, because they were too hard to price well, or were too powerful in multiples, or too narrow. You don't always have extra actions for Diadem, but you can just take another Prize instead; it's not a whole unused pile.

While I would agree with you that it would get bought more often than Counting House or Coppersmith (caveat: depending on its cost), that's mostly because the base coin value is $2 rather than $0.  But either way, you have to have extra actions to exploit its unique ability, and there are lots of boards where you just can't do that.  So what fun is that?

Contrast with Counting House:  You can ALWAYS use Counting House for its full ability.  That it's not a good strategy most of the time is irrelevant:  you can always make a go of it if you want to.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 04:18:32 pm by rinkworks »
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Epoch

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 04:18:35 pm »
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Village is usable (not necessarily optimal, but usable to the extent of its ability) with any terminals, not just "enginey" terminals.  Not really a fair comparison.

The thing is, Donald has already been through this thought process with Diadem and concluded it was just too situational for a regular kingdom card.

Quote
The Prizes wanted to be cards that I wasn't "wasting" as Prizes. Cards that I couldn't do normally, because they were too hard to price well, or were too powerful in multiples, or too narrow. You don't always have extra actions for Diadem, but you can just take another Prize instead; it's not a whole unused pile.

While I would agree with you that it would get bought more often than Counting House or Coppersmith (caveat: depending on its cost), that's mostly because the base coin value is $2 rather than $0.  But either way, you have to have extra actions to make it fun to use, and there are lots of boards where you just can't do that.

Well, it really depends on the price.  At $5, it's not "situational," it's "way too good."  At $6, it's situational (you can always use it as a Gold (well, unless you, like, draw it from a dead Smithy, but whatever), if you choose not to play any Actions, but it's only ever possibly better than Gold if there's a village on the board or a few other types of cards (Throne Room + non-terminal, for example, or Tribute)).  At $7, it's probably useless unless you happen to draw it on a board with the potential for activated Cities or something.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 04:28:57 pm by Epoch »
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rinkworks

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2011, 04:31:34 pm »
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Village is usable (not necessarily optimal, but usable to the extent of its ability) with any terminals, not just "enginey" terminals.  Not really a fair comparison.

The thing is, Donald has already been through this thought process with Diadem and concluded it was just too situational for a regular kingdom card.

Quote
The Prizes wanted to be cards that I wasn't "wasting" as Prizes. Cards that I couldn't do normally, because they were too hard to price well, or were too powerful in multiples, or too narrow. You don't always have extra actions for Diadem, but you can just take another Prize instead; it's not a whole unused pile.

While I would agree with you that it would get bought more often than Counting House or Coppersmith (caveat: depending on its cost), that's mostly because the base coin value is $2 rather than $0.  But either way, you have to have extra actions to make it fun to use, and there are lots of boards where you just can't do that.

Well, it really depends on the price.  At $5, it's not "situational," it's "way too good."  At $6, it's situational (you can always use it as a Gold (well, unless you, like, draw it from a dead Smithy, but whatever), if you choose not to play any Actions).  At $7, it's probably useless unless you happen to draw it on a board with the potential for activated Cities or something.

Hence my caveat.  (Note:  I'd say it's a problem even at $6, as Gold will be a strictly better buy too often and still be ridiculously dominating in too many of the remaining cases.)

But I really think the cost is only the second most critical problem.  You don't want to have a card whose power frequently cannot be unlocked.  It reminds me of the quote in the Secret History of the Alchemy Cards where Donald dismissed an action card that offered "+1 Potion," because it was useless in the absence of any other potion-cost card.

It's fine to have a card that is bad strategy to use a lot (Counting House, Coppersmith, Transmute, etc), and it's also fine to have cards that work best in specific combos with each other (Village + Torturer, vs. either card alone), but you don't want a card where, on a great many boards, you just can't use the power of the card.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 04:33:35 pm by rinkworks »
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jonts26

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2011, 04:43:26 pm »
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It's fine to have a card that is bad strategy to use a lot (Counting House, Coppersmith, Transmute, etc), and it's also fine to have cards that work best in specific combos with each other (Village + Torturer, vs. either card alone), but you don't want a card where, on a great many boards, you just can't use the power of the card.

I think you're arguing against yourself here. Counting house et al. ARE cards "where, on a great many boards, you just can't use the power of the card." A good deal of cards are often not worth it, but recognizing when they are is highly advantageous. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.
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Epoch

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2011, 04:45:37 pm »
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Hence my caveat.  (Note:  I'd say it's a problem even at $6, as Gold will be a strictly better buy too often and still be ridiculously dominating in too many of the remaining cases.)

Yeah, I think at $6, it's either:  "this card is a fraction less good than Gold, so might as well buy Gold instead," about 85% of the time and "obviously the only strategy is to buy lots of Village-equivalents and Diadem" about 10% of the time and "huh, this is actually interesting and could fit into the a cool strategy without making the board boring" only about 5% of the time.
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guided

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2011, 04:46:13 pm »
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Diadem would be less situational than many other cards. That's all I said. And it's true, period. Review the thread and discover I am not arguing that Diadem would make an awesome supply pile. Indeed I specifically said I did not think it would make a good supply pile.
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Epoch

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2011, 04:48:02 pm »
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I think you're arguing against yourself here. Counting house et al. ARE cards "where, on a great many boards, you just can't use the power of the card." A good deal of cards are often not worth it, but recognizing when they are is highly advantageous. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

He doesn't mean "the power of the card" like "it's powerful relative to other cards."  He means, "the power of the card" like "the card's ability can not trigger in a useful way."

Like, if you had Village on a board with entirely non-terminals: Village is now literally useless.  A Village buy is strictly equivalent to no buy at all in 100% of all situations there.

His point is that without a Village-like card, Diadem is literally impossible to use as anything other than a Silver or Gold.  Not that it's impossible to use well, but literally it can be worth only $2 or $3.



EDIT:  I note that I can think of a few ways in which buying a Village on a board with no terminal Actions is not literally equivalent to buying no card at all.  Almost equivalent.  It bloats your deck for Gardens or Vineyards, it could be turned over by a Tribute, Scrying Pool, Thief, Pirate Ship, Harvest, etc.  And, uh, perhaps obviously considering the context, it might make a Diadem more valuable.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 05:26:00 pm by Epoch »
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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2011, 04:53:09 pm »
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OK I see what you're going for but I guess don't really see that as a meaningful distinction.
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Epoch

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2011, 04:57:25 pm »
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OK I see what you're going for but I guess don't really see that as a meaningful distinction.

I tend to agree with you.  Note that even without that, it's pretty clearly the case that Diadem is a bad card to have in the Supply.

It would potentially be more interesting in a variant Dominion with some kind of non-immutable Treasures.  Where, like, you had a couple of "high cost" Treasures and a couple of "low cost" Treasures instead of always Silver + Gold + maybe some other ones.  Most of the problem with Diadem is that if it costs less than Gold, it makes money strategies too fast, and if it costs equal to or more than Gold, it's bad unless there are Villages on the board.

Though even if it replaced Gold rather than supplemented it, it would make for boring games with Fishing Village certainly, and maybe Worker's Village or Festival.
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rinkworks

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Re: Tournament Prizes - would you want any as a kingdom set?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2011, 05:02:22 pm »
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I think you're arguing against yourself here. Counting house et al. ARE cards "where, on a great many boards, you just can't use the power of the card." A good deal of cards are often not worth it, but recognizing when they are is highly advantageous. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

Epoch beat me to it, but yeah, what he said.

I perhaps should have said "you just can't use the FUNCTION of the card" instead.  No matter what the board (and whether or not it's a good idea), I can always buy a Counting House and pull Coppers out of my discard with it.  But now imagine a similar card that lets me rifle through my discard pile and put all the $7-cost cards in my hand.  Such a card would be impossible to exploit on most boards.

guided:  Acknowledged.  Sorry to have misunderstood you.
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