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Author Topic: Interview with Donald X.  (Read 2127160 times)

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Asper

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2750 on: February 16, 2016, 01:25:21 pm »
0

Also i really might be wrong here, but i feel Treasure Hunter isn't that relevant for the Page line, either way. If you think it's too strong, start with Warrior.
It's relevant for the game to have fun cards for casual players. It's more relevant than any of this other stuff for sure.

If you intend to say my point is irrelevant because strength doesn't matter that much, well, you are actually supporting the point of my post, which was that "TH becomes too strong" isn't a relevant argument.

I would also argue a casual player to be more willing to take a compromise if they don't remember stuff (which is against the rules with the existing card), and to be more likely to run into that situation in the first place. So casual players are in fact the ones affected most.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2751 on: February 16, 2016, 01:58:09 pm »
+1

Also i really might be wrong here, but i feel Treasure Hunter isn't that relevant for the Page line, either way. If you think it's too strong, start with Warrior.
It's relevant for the game to have fun cards for casual players. It's more relevant than any of this other stuff for sure.

If you intend to say my point is irrelevant because strength doesn't matter that much, well, you are actually supporting the point of my post, which was that "TH becomes too strong" isn't a relevant argument.

I would also argue a casual player to be more willing to take a compromise if they don't remember stuff (which is against the rules with the existing card), and to be more likely to run into that situation in the first place. So casual players are in fact the ones affected most.
Let me try again. You say "i feel Treasure Hunter isn't that relevant for the Page line." Well man, the idea on my side was never "Treasure Hunter is in the Page line because it's relevant to the Page line." It was "Treasure Hunter is in the Page line to be a fun card for the people that like it." There's no discussion of "what it contributes to the Page line" that in any way interacts with the actual reason for the card existing.

I continue to feel zero pull towards Treasure Hunter being any different. You are not convincing me of anything there. If you don't enjoy the Page experience because of Treasure Hunter memory issues, there are 29 other kingdom cards in Adventures. I can't make cards people love without having cards people hate.

If I had felt the memory issue loomed too large, I would not have made the card. That was not the experience I had.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2752 on: February 16, 2016, 02:56:54 pm »
+2

Treasure Hunter was a card a broad swath of casual players loved, that playtesters didn't like much and so got dropped from multiple expansions. It was great to put it into a Traveller slot, where the players who don't like it can just grumble a little before upgrading it, while the players who love it get to have it.

I'd never thought about it before this conversation, but this really cuts the other way too, doesn't it? If Treasure Hunter were a Kingdom card, you could just ignore it. But since it's in a Traveller line you have to play it if you want the fun of Warrior, Hero, and Champion.

I think Treasure Hunter is fine where it is, though. I've definitely had the conversations of "how many cards did you gain last turn?", but they don't bother me, and they don't happen every time someone plays Treasure Hunter.
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Asper

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2753 on: February 16, 2016, 05:08:58 pm »
+1

Also i really might be wrong here, but i feel Treasure Hunter isn't that relevant for the Page line, either way. If you think it's too strong, start with Warrior.
It's relevant for the game to have fun cards for casual players. It's more relevant than any of this other stuff for sure.

If you intend to say my point is irrelevant because strength doesn't matter that much, well, you are actually supporting the point of my post, which was that "TH becomes too strong" isn't a relevant argument.

I would also argue a casual player to be more willing to take a compromise if they don't remember stuff (which is against the rules with the existing card), and to be more likely to run into that situation in the first place. So casual players are in fact the ones affected most.
Let me try again. You say "i feel Treasure Hunter isn't that relevant for the Page line." Well man, the idea on my side was never "Treasure Hunter is in the Page line because it's relevant to the Page line." It was "Treasure Hunter is in the Page line to be a fun card for the people that like it." There's no discussion of "what it contributes to the Page line" that in any way interacts with the actual reason for the card existing.

I continue to feel zero pull towards Treasure Hunter being any different. You are not convincing me of anything there. If you don't enjoy the Page experience because of Treasure Hunter memory issues, there are 29 other kingdom cards in Adventures. I can't make cards people love without having cards people hate.

If I had felt the memory issue loomed too large, I would not have made the card. That was not the experience I had.

I never implied that your intent was for Treasure Hunter to be relevant to the Page line, and i certainly did not complain about it not being relevant. You are apparently reading my answer to another poster's concern as a critizism, even though it was not intended as such. He said, "TH like you suggest makes the Page line too strong", i answered "TH doesn't have much of an influence on the Page line's strength", and you read "It's bad that TH has so little relevance for the Page line". It's not what i answered to, and not the discussion i was intending to have.

Either way, thank you for answering.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2754 on: February 16, 2016, 05:10:10 pm »
+3

I'd never thought about it before this conversation, but this really cuts the other way too, doesn't it? If Treasure Hunter were a Kingdom card, you could just ignore it. But since it's in a Traveller line you have to play it if you want the fun of Warrior, Hero, and Champion.
Well just once per Page. You gain your Silver, as every fiber of your being screams in agony, then return it to the pile and take a Warrior.

The cards being grouped together doesn't mean they want to all be can't-possibly-offend-anyone things. They want to try to avoid being hated but they can only go so far that way before no-one cares about them. I guess you can argue, they should have tried to please similar kinds of players, so that the people who loved/hated one card in a line tended to love/hate one or two more of them too. Like, the Page line aimed at casual players, the Peasant line aimed at serious players. I didn't think of that then though, I just tried to make good cards.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2755 on: February 16, 2016, 05:12:47 pm »
+1

I never implied that your intent was for Treasure Hunter to be relevant to the Page line, and i certainly did not complain about it not being relevant. You are apparently reading my answer to another poster's concern as a critizism, even though it was not intended as such. He said, "TH like you suggest makes the Page line too strong", i answered "TH doesn't have much of an influence on the Page line's strength", and you read "It's bad that TH has so little relevance for the Page line". It's not what i answered to, and not the discussion i was intending to have.

Either way, thank you for answering.
The internet is hard. I thought you were saying, "Treasure Hunter has no relevance to the page line, therefore it doesn't have to be there, we could have some other card that I liked more."
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Asper

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2756 on: February 16, 2016, 05:39:32 pm »
0

I never implied that your intent was for Treasure Hunter to be relevant to the Page line, and i certainly did not complain about it not being relevant. You are apparently reading my answer to another poster's concern as a critizism, even though it was not intended as such. He said, "TH like you suggest makes the Page line too strong", i answered "TH doesn't have much of an influence on the Page line's strength", and you read "It's bad that TH has so little relevance for the Page line". It's not what i answered to, and not the discussion i was intending to have.

Either way, thank you for answering.
The internet is hard. I thought you were saying, "Treasure Hunter has no relevance to the page line, therefore it doesn't have to be there, we could have some other card that I liked more."
Yeah, maybe it wasn't the best idea to answer to two different people in one post. I have to blame myself for that one.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2757 on: February 16, 2016, 05:42:13 pm »
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I think the Traveller concept is overall very interesting, and I think the existence of TH adds an interesting level of depth to the Page line.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2758 on: February 16, 2016, 06:57:32 pm »
0

Have Travellers always had linear paths?  Did you consider a line that branches, or two lines that converge?
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markusin

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2759 on: February 16, 2016, 07:13:13 pm »
0

For what it's worth, I think Treasure Hunter is a rather unique card that works quite well as a part of a traveller line. It's a bit strange since it works so well leeching off someone else's copy more than anything else most of the time, but the allure of Champion makes it likely for Treasure Hunters to come into play as players make their way towards Champion.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2760 on: February 16, 2016, 07:14:43 pm »
+5

Have Travellers always had linear paths?  Did you consider a line that branches, or two lines that converge?
Initially it was a pile of different cards at each level - a $3 turned into any of the $4's (your choice at first, then random). Then it was the thing it is, four specific upgrades in an order, telling a story. I did not consider anything trickier. I considered doing one that went backwards - starts expensive and gets weaker - but it would have to be mandatory (and then when you forget you're cheating).
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Watno

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2761 on: February 17, 2016, 11:19:57 am »
0

Sorry if I missed this being asked before.

Will there be previews from people other than you for Empires like there were for Adventures?
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2762 on: February 17, 2016, 11:24:07 am »
+2

Will there be previews from people other than you for Empires like there were for Adventures?
Yes.
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werothegreat

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2763 on: February 17, 2016, 11:29:36 am »
0

Will there be previews from people other than you for Empires like there were for Adventures?
Yes.

Have said people been decided already, or can people volunteer?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2764 on: February 17, 2016, 11:31:32 am »
+10

Will there be previews from people other than you for Empires like there were for Adventures?
Yes.

Have said people been decided already, or can people volunteer?

Translation:

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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2765 on: February 17, 2016, 11:53:06 am »
+4

Have said people been decided already, or can people volunteer?
All slots are spoken for. If one opens back up, I probably will pick someone to offer it to, rather than going with volunteers.
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tripwire

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2766 on: February 17, 2016, 03:53:23 pm »
+1

The discussion about treasure hunter made me curious on the thought process behind traveller effects. Looking at the secret history it seemed like a number of the cards picked were cards that you previously tried but didn't work out for various reasons and making them part of a traveller line seemed to fix those issues.

Is that sort of how it went, or did you have more specific criteria for the kinds of effects you wanted traveller cards to have? (e.g. something that synergizes/anti-synergizes with the other cards in that line, a niche card or generally useful one, something you might want to stop at in some instances, etc.)

Are there types of effects you think would make a poor traveller upgrade but would work as a card? Vice-versa?

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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2767 on: February 17, 2016, 04:28:32 pm »
+3

The discussion about treasure hunter made me curious on the thought process behind traveller effects. Looking at the secret history it seemed like a number of the cards picked were cards that you previously tried but didn't work out for various reasons and making them part of a traveller line seemed to fix those issues.

Is that sort of how it went, or did you have more specific criteria for the kinds of effects you wanted traveller cards to have? (e.g. something that synergizes/anti-synergizes with the other cards in that line, a niche card or generally useful one, something you might want to stop at in some instances, etc.)
Well for the step where I first had the two linear paths, I picked names first. One line was just someone getting better, the other told a little story. Then, the effects wanted to at least somewhat fit the names.

For the Page line, I liked the idea of having just one attack (and one in the other in the obvious Soldier slot). The names thus had to work with not being attacks despite being names that might otherwise go on attack cards. One thing was to have a Moat, but that had to go on the top, since the under-the-line space was reserved for upgrading. So, there's an attack, a Moat, and two treasure-gainers, which also fits with the names. Your Hero fights, but doesn't fight the other players.

For the Peasant line, things were more of a mystery. Soldier wanted to attack and Teacher wanted to hand out tokens. Fugitive and Disciple did not suggest as much in terms of what they would do. At one point the Fugitive went on the Tavern mat; that was cute, he hid out in the Tavern. That was part of trying to make Teacher harder to go nuts with, but was very wordy.

It was natural to look at old ideas to see if some of them would work; I mean I needed 8 extra cards. Fugitive in particular was a card I was resigned to never doing, but I could just do it here with no issues. Treasure Hunter you know about. It had been in Hinterlands, it was pretty cool there, what with Haggler and Border Village and so on. Disciple tried another classic dead card, but didn't keep it. Hero tried something new simple & exciting, that would be dangerous on a regular card. Champion was a Moat variant, then Moated from anywhere. Teacher was new. Soldier and Warrior were just very simple attacks using the tokens (at first). Attacks are hard and that was an easy way to get terse new ones.

There were things that weren't a reason why a card showed up, but which then seemed nice, and made it less likely that that card would leave. It was cute that Page and Treasure Hunter were +1 Action while Peasant and Soldier weren't. It was cute that Peasant was the +'s not on Page, but it didn't start that way. It was cute that Champion was a duration and Teacher a reserve; neither started that way. It was cute that Soldier gave the -1 card token and Warrior gave the -$1 token, while Soldier gave +$2 and Warrior gave +2 Cards.

I liked the idea of trying to have each step be worth stopping on sometimes, but it was clear you would usually want to push to the top with your first Page/Peasant. I do think it ended up where every step is worth stopping on sometimes, except Page (and yes even then but way less often). You don't stop on Fugitive that often, but I have done it. You stop on Soldier, Warrior, and Disciple all the time; and then sometimes there's a combo for Treasure Hunter or Hero (or you don't need Champion).

Are there types of effects you think would make a poor traveller upgrade but would work as a card? Vice-versa?
Mostly what makes for a poor upgrade but not a poor card, is something that's missing out by being an upgrade. You see the upgrade less often; it would bring more joy to the game as a regular card. There's also, things you need early game, since the upgrades are delayed. Arguably when an ability is precious (e.g. +buy, in some games) it's bad to have it on a traveller (other than the 1st or last one). I kind of shied away from those but not completely.

A card that's too narrow as a regular card can hope to find life in a less-used slot like the travellers; if this isn't the game for Treasure Hunter combos, you just play it once and move on. A card that's hard to cost (e.g. Fugitive) gets this new option of costing time.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2768 on: February 17, 2016, 04:33:40 pm »
+3

Well for the step where I first had the two linear paths, I picked names first. One line was just someone getting better, the other told a little story.

You have said this before, but I don't see how Treasure Hunter is in any way a natural progression from Page. A page is like a young servant to a knight, possibly being trained as a knight themselves. This page apparently just said "screw this" and went off to seek her fortune.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2769 on: February 17, 2016, 04:38:09 pm »
+6

Well for the step where I first had the two linear paths, I picked names first. One line was just someone getting better, the other told a little story.

You have said this before, but I don't see how Treasure Hunter is in any way a natural progression from Page. A page is like a young servant to a knight, possibly being trained as a knight themselves. This page apparently just said "screw this" and went off to seek her fortune.
I'm with you. And then in the end she came back.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2770 on: February 17, 2016, 04:38:39 pm »
0

Mercenary is the only terminal with both +cards and +coins.  Were other such terminals ever tested?  If so, why were they scrapped?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2771 on: February 17, 2016, 04:42:19 pm »
+3

Well for the step where I first had the two linear paths, I picked names first. One line was just someone getting better, the other told a little story.

You have said this before, but I don't see how Treasure Hunter is in any way a natural progression from Page. A page is like a young servant to a knight, possibly being trained as a knight themselves. This page apparently just said "screw this" and went off to seek her fortune.

Play some D&D. You gotta kill some monsters and get some phat lewt before you can become a high-level Specialist. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2772 on: February 17, 2016, 04:52:49 pm »
+4

Mercenary is the only terminal with both +cards and +coins.  Were other such terminals ever tested?  If so, why were they scrapped?
That's not exactly true. Tribute for example can do that. And uh Storeroom.

The main set at one point had "+2 Cards +$2," for $5. It was dull. It also seemed strong, given my technology at the time.

Smaller amounts, e.g. "+1 Card +$2," always just look wonky to me. Man just go ahead and give +3 of something. Larger amounts have the problem of needing to be really expensive (or saddled with penalties, or expensive in an unusual way like travellers). "+2 Cards +$2" itself isn't impossible; Prosperity could have managed that with a bonus. I had it on a Peasant upgrade when the 5 cards at each level were all unique.
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Asper

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2773 on: February 17, 2016, 05:01:52 pm »
0

I do think it ended up where every step is worth stopping on sometimes, except Page (and yes even then but way less often).

Huh, i always thought the whole point of Page was "Play 8 of these and then a Warrior." At least the carnage you can do with this left a lasting impression on me.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2774 on: February 17, 2016, 05:30:34 pm »
0

Mercenary is the only terminal with both +cards and +coins.  Were other such terminals ever tested?  If so, why were they scrapped?
That's not exactly true. Tribute for example can do that. And uh Storeroom.

Trusty Steed anyone :)?
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