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Author Topic: Interview with Donald X.  (Read 1448813 times)

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ipofanes

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2400 on: June 15, 2015, 05:36:29 am »
0

Jack of All Trades is an example of something much more subtle; you might never realize that the four things defend against the different kinds of attacks.

Uh, I thought it was common wisdom.
Well I blabbed about it right away, in the secret history. I have had the experience though of people not seeing the connection between the abilities, asking me what the deal is.

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2401 on: June 15, 2015, 05:38:48 am »
+1

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

I dug up someone not seeing the connection in a Hinterlands review: "But other cards like Jack of All Trades just feel weird. He gives you silver, refills your hand, lets you look at the top card of your deck and lets you trash a non-treasure card. How are any of those connected?" http://castlesandcooks.com/2012/02/09/arena-review-dominion-hinterlands-impressions/
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2402 on: June 15, 2015, 06:14:16 am »
0

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

I dug up someone not seeing the connection in a Hinterlands review: "But other cards like Jack of All Trades just feel weird. He gives you silver, refills your hand, lets you look at the top card of your deck and lets you trash a non-treasure card. How are any of those connected?" http://castlesandcooks.com/2012/02/09/arena-review-dominion-hinterlands-impressions/

Again, I find myself almost indignant about some misguided perceptions of other people about certain aspects of Dominion gameplay. "Currency becomes meaningless"?? But then I have to remind myself I'm very biased toward Dominion and can't expect everyone to see the meaning of things in the game right away. I wonder about the author's way of economic thinking, though.

Quote
Another odd choice is that by being an expansion, Hinterlands canít be played right out of the box as the core cards arenít included which means you have to spend around $60 at minimum to play this game.

Would he rather spend $60 on each expansion because it also contains another set of basic cards rather than expand the base set he already has? I don't get it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2403 on: June 15, 2015, 08:22:57 am »
+12

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

I dug up someone not seeing the connection in a Hinterlands review: "But other cards like Jack of All Trades just feel weird. He gives you silver, refills your hand, lets you look at the top card of your deck and lets you trash a non-treasure card. How are any of those connected?" http://castlesandcooks.com/2012/02/09/arena-review-dominion-hinterlands-impressions/

Really, it's like it does a little bit of everything.  At the very least it could have a name that somehow fits that.
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Kirian

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2404 on: June 15, 2015, 09:31:38 am »
+2

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

I dug up someone not seeing the connection in a Hinterlands review: "But other cards like Jack of All Trades just feel weird. He gives you silver, refills your hand, lets you look at the top card of your deck and lets you trash a non-treasure card. How are any of those connected?" http://castlesandcooks.com/2012/02/09/arena-review-dominion-hinterlands-impressions/

Really, it's like it does a little bit of everything.  At the very least it could have a name that somehow fits that.

Like "Multitasker" or "Polymath" perhaps.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2405 on: June 15, 2015, 10:09:01 am »
+1

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

I dug up someone not seeing the connection in a Hinterlands review: "But other cards like Jack of All Trades just feel weird. He gives you silver, refills your hand, lets you look at the top card of your deck and lets you trash a non-treasure card. How are any of those connected?" http://castlesandcooks.com/2012/02/09/arena-review-dominion-hinterlands-impressions/

Really, it's like it does a little bit of everything.  At the very least it could have a name that somehow fits that.

Yeah, that's not just a case of not understanding how the different effects relate to each other, that's obliviousness to the meaning of a pretty common idiom.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2406 on: June 15, 2015, 10:10:27 am »
+3

It's okay, they can't all be the best criticism of an expansion ever.
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AJD

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2407 on: June 15, 2015, 10:13:49 am »
+5

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2408 on: June 15, 2015, 12:07:04 pm »
0

I am sure people would ask you about that, but I interpreted your "you" in "you might never realize" and my "common" in "common wisdom" in the context of this board. Incidentally, I possibly didn't realize up to now that "gain a silver" counters Thief/Noble Brigand/Pirate Ship and in a way Knights/Rogue attacks.
Yes I wasn't talking about this board, you guys know all about Jack.

[image]

Good, I was hoping for a YDKJ reference.  They don't make party games like they used to.
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nate_w

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2409 on: June 15, 2015, 06:15:33 pm »
0

Adventures seems like a big step-up in interaction complexity. Donald, are you worried that increases in complexity will fundamentally change the game in ways that could be negative?  Rules that interact weirdly that you didn't see at first? Cards that become broken?  More steep learning curve for new players?
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2410 on: June 15, 2015, 06:38:26 pm »
+9

Adventures seems like a big step-up in interaction complexity. Donald, are you worried that increases in complexity will fundamentally change the game in ways that could be negative?  Rules that interact weirdly that you didn't see at first? Cards that become broken?  More steep learning curve for new players?
I have many times explained that the necessary increase in complexity if you want to do more things is a good reason not to do more things, to make spin-offs rather than expansions. The complexity is 100% bad. I made another expansion anyway! I hope you like it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2411 on: June 16, 2015, 04:34:34 pm »
0

So it looks like there's a new edition of Nefarious coming out soon from a different publisher.  Are there any differences from the previous version?
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2412 on: June 16, 2015, 05:30:01 pm »
+4

So it looks like there's a new edition of Nefarious coming out soon from a different publisher.  Are there any differences from the previous version?
This is the English version of the Russian version, published uh a few years ago.

- It has new art. We couldn't manage to contact Ascora Games to get the old art.
- They are "agents" rather than "minions."
- It costs $0 for for a guy on Research, down from $1. It wanted to be in-between and while I originally went with $1, I changed my mind.
- I tweaked a couple inventions to have a little more -card and a little less -agent. The -agent ones can scare people away from investing; the -card ones reduce the impact of bad draws.
- I tweaked/replaced a couple twists. One combo made the game unplayable so of course I fixed that. But then I thought I could do better on a couple more.
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Kirian

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2413 on: June 16, 2015, 07:15:30 pm »
0

So it looks like there's a new edition of Nefarious coming out soon from a different publisher.  Are there any differences from the previous version?
This is the English version of the Russian version, published uh a few years ago.

- It has new art. We couldn't manage to contact Ascora Games to get the old art.
- They are "agents" rather than "minions."
- It costs $0 for for a guy on Research, down from $1. It wanted to be in-between and while I originally went with $1, I changed my mind.
- I tweaked a couple inventions to have a little more -card and a little less -agent. The -agent ones can scare people away from investing; the -card ones reduce the impact of bad draws.
- I tweaked/replaced a couple twists. One combo made the game unplayable so of course I fixed that. But then I thought I could do better on a couple more.


Which combo?  I know we had a few games that came close to unplayable...
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2414 on: June 16, 2015, 11:37:19 pm »
0

Which combo?  I know we had a few games that came close to unplayable...
The thing that means you can't play an invention without removing a guy, and the thing that says you can't have more guys than you have inventions. I think that's the only one; otherwise you can make the game harsh, but can make progress in those games.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2415 on: June 18, 2015, 11:01:15 pm »
+1

Do you have any thoughts on the controversy around the Kingdom Builder episode of Tabletop?

I haven't watched the episode yet, but from what I have read Wil wins the game as a result of an incorrect rules interpretation.

Do you feel that this sort of thing might be harmful to your product?
Or is any publicity good publicity?

In the comments, someone suggested inviting games developers to come on the show to help avoid this sort of thing (although why they thought it reasonable to dictate who should pay the associated costs is beyond me).
Would you be interested in being involved with shows that feature your products, either on-screen or off-screen?

Does it generally annoy you when people get the rules wrong when posting playthroughs and reviews online?
From what I have seen, it's pretty common for people to get at least a few details wrong.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2416 on: June 18, 2015, 11:05:11 pm »
+1

Do you have any thoughts on the controversy around the Kingdom Builder episode of Tabletop?

I haven't watched the episode yet, but from what I have read [needless-spoiler]Wil wins the game as a result of an incorrect rules interpretation.[/needless-spoiler]

Do you feel that this sort of thing might be harmful to your product?
Or is any publicity good publicity?

In the comments, someone suggested inviting games developers to come on the show to help avoid this sort of thing (although why they thought it reasonable to dictate who should pay the associated costs is beyond me).
Would you be interested in being involved with shows that feature your products, either on-screen or off-screen?

Does it generally annoy you when people get the rules wrong when posting playthroughs and reviews online?
From what I have seen, it's pretty common for people to get at least a few details wrong.

Wil didn't win, and without analyzing their game too closely, the rules mistake they made (using extra Actions on the same turn they obtained them) didn't seem to help any one player specifically.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2417 on: June 18, 2015, 11:17:06 pm »
+1

Do you have any thoughts on the controversy around the Kingdom Builder episode of Tabletop?

I haven't watched the episode yet, but from what I have read [needless-spoiler]Wil wins the game as a result of an incorrect rules interpretation.[/needless-spoiler]

Do you feel that this sort of thing might be harmful to your product?
Or is any publicity good publicity?

In the comments, someone suggested inviting games developers to come on the show to help avoid this sort of thing (although why they thought it reasonable to dictate who should pay the associated costs is beyond me).
Would you be interested in being involved with shows that feature your products, either on-screen or off-screen?

Does it generally annoy you when people get the rules wrong when posting playthroughs and reviews online?
From what I have seen, it's pretty common for people to get at least a few details wrong.

Wil didn't win, and without analyzing their game too closely, the rules mistake they made (using extra Actions on the same turn they obtained them) didn't seem to help any one player specifically.

Yeah that blog post really surprises me. He says they "completely butchered the rules"; that didn't happen at all. Unless there's something else I'm not aware of, they had one small detail incorrect; something that could be easily missed your first time playing. And they had a thing pop up in the video explaining the correct rule. So there shouldn't be concern over viewers learning it incorrectly.

Man most of these games aren't ever good to learn from reading the rules alone. You want to learn by playing with someone who has played and have them teach you. Then if necessary you read the rules after you play. It's very difficult to get everything right the first time. I'm disappointed that Wil would get so angry about this, and feel bad for the producer who I would assume was fired based on the post.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2418 on: June 19, 2015, 12:41:13 am »
+3

Do you have any thoughts on the controversy around the Kingdom Builder episode of Tabletop?

I haven't watched the episode yet, but from what I have read Wil wins the game as a result of an incorrect rules interpretation.

Do you feel that this sort of thing might be harmful to your product?
Or is any publicity good publicity?
The old quote "there's no such thing as bad publicity" was specifically about the entertainment industry, and since that might seem to include board games, no, not those, just things with celebrities. The idea of course is that if your movie star is arrested, or awarded a nobel prize, whatever, either thing will get people into seats.

In other fields there is in fact such a thing as bad publicity.

In this case (without having seen it yet) probably this is purely good publicity. Regular viewers will know they mess up rules sometimes. You get an idea as to whether or not the game looks like good times despite that.

Would you be interested in being involved with shows that feature your products, either on-screen or off-screen?
It depends on a lot (especially where I'm expected to get to), but sure, I might have said yes if they'd asked. I'd be good too. I'd know the rules, crack wise, beat them up at my game.

Does it generally annoy you when people get the rules wrong when posting playthroughs and reviews online?
From what I have seen, it's pretty common for people to get at least a few details wrong.
I dunno it depends. Like recently there was an Adventures video where they made some mistakes and it didn't bother me at all. Again it doesn't seem likely to hurt the ability of the review to produce sales, and people opening the box get their own chance to read the rules.

Now, for a review on BGG, if they blow it and use abilities the turn they get them in KB, well someone will set them straight but it will certainly lower the value of the review. You're not watching the game in action, just hearing some opinions warped by wrong rules. So that's more annoying. And you can't necessarily tell. But when you can, people are immediately on it.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2419 on: June 19, 2015, 12:49:29 am »
0

Do you have any thoughts on the controversy around the Kingdom Builder episode of Tabletop?

I haven't watched the episode yet, but from what I have read [needless-spoiler]Wil wins the game as a result of an incorrect rules interpretation.[/needless-spoiler]

Do you feel that this sort of thing might be harmful to your product?
Or is any publicity good publicity?

In the comments, someone suggested inviting games developers to come on the show to help avoid this sort of thing (although why they thought it reasonable to dictate who should pay the associated costs is beyond me).
Would you be interested in being involved with shows that feature your products, either on-screen or off-screen?

Does it generally annoy you when people get the rules wrong when posting playthroughs and reviews online?
From what I have seen, it's pretty common for people to get at least a few details wrong.

Wil didn't win, and without analyzing their game too closely, the rules mistake they made (using extra Actions on the same turn they obtained them) didn't seem to help any one player specifically.

Yeah that blog post really surprises me. He says they "completely butchered the rules"; that didn't happen at all. Unless there's something else I'm not aware of, they had one small detail incorrect; something that could be easily missed your first time playing. And they had a thing pop up in the video explaining the correct rule. So there shouldn't be concern over viewers learning it incorrectly.

Man most of these games aren't ever good to learn from reading the rules alone. You want to learn by playing with someone who has played and have them teach you. Then if necessary you read the rules after you play. It's very difficult to get everything right the first time. I'm disappointed that Wil would get so angry about this, and feel bad for the producer who I would assume was fired based on the post.

Ah, I think what I read said that he ended the game early due to the misapplication of the rule, which I suppose helped whoever was ahead at the time.
I should probably have watched the episode before I commented on it.

The thing that is really weird to me, and to a lot of people who have even a passing interest in Tabletop/Geek & Sundry, is that the unnamed producer in charge of the rules is easily identified as Boyan Radakovich.
Boyan isn't just some lowly intern paid to look after the rules, he is a games designer, an expert in what makes a good game and is the producer responsible for doing all the legwork to find suitable games to play on the show.

More importantly, he and Wil have previously described themselves as friends.
It seems odd to me that Wil would just throw him under the bus like that.
Looks like it seems odd to Boyan too.

Now, for a review on BGG, if they blow it and use abilities the turn they get them in KB, well someone will set them straight but it will certainly lower the value of the review. You're not watching the game in action, just hearing some opinions warped by wrong rules. So that's more annoying. And you can't necessarily tell. But when you can, people are immediately on it.

That's one of the big benefits of an active community like this or BGG.
If someone says something wrong, there is always someone who knows better that can set them straight.

Of course, as you know, the downside is that many things that are "wrong" are subjective and people can argue for hours about really petty crap.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2420 on: June 19, 2015, 01:16:56 am »
0

Ah, I think what I read said that he ended the game early due to the misapplication of the rule, which I suppose helped whoever was ahead at the time.

I don't think that happened. When Wil explained the game, he said (wrongly) that the game ended once any player had used up all his/her settlements. But when that actually happened (Wil was 3rd player and used up his settlements), they still finished out the turn order (the 4th player got his turn), which is correct according to the rules.

The guy who won (Yuri), won because he prioritized Citizens and Merchants, which dovetailed well together in this game. It was not a particularly close game.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2421 on: June 19, 2015, 01:30:44 am »
0

Would you agree that Kingdom Builder "can claim Weiqi (Go) as its spiritual ancestor"?
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2422 on: June 19, 2015, 01:45:46 am »
+1

I find it completely ironic that Wil Wheaton singlehandedly coined Wheaton's Law: Don't be a dick. Way to go, what a hypocrite.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2423 on: June 19, 2015, 01:46:57 am »
0

Ah, I think what I read said that he ended the game early due to the misapplication of the rule, which I suppose helped whoever was ahead at the time.

I don't think that happened. When Wil explained the game, he said (wrongly) that the game ended once any player had used up all his/her settlements. But when that actually happened (Wil was 3rd player and used up his settlements), they still finished out the turn order (the 4th player got his turn), which is correct according to the rules.

The guy who won (Yuri), won because he prioritized Citizens and Merchants, which dovetailed well together in this game. It was not a particularly close game.

The fact that the errors were minor makes it even more bizarre that he would throw his producer under the bus.
Although I guess part of what he is saying is that it has been an ongoing problem all season.
I get the feeling Wil is something of a perfectionist, so I suppose it's a case of the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #2424 on: June 19, 2015, 02:05:15 am »
+4

Would you agree that Kingdom Builder "can claim Weiqi (Go) as its spiritual ancestor"?
Not so much. Go is a classic game of "putting pieces on a board," but it's not the only one. It's fair to say that some classic game of putting pieces on a board put the idea into my head, but after that it was just a basic tool hanging around, unattached in my mind to any specific game. And then, what you actually do with your pieces isn't too similar between Go and Kingdom Builder.

Kingdom Builder started out as a Dominion spin-off. I took out the deckbuilding and replaced it with "draw a card and put 3 pieces on that terrain, adjacent to you if possible." That in turn came from an earlier bidding game, Baron Lite. You bid on a terrain card with a number, e.g. 3 of Deserts, if you won you put three pieces on Desert, adjacent to yourself if possible. That rule came from trying to think of how to avoid politics in multiplayer games with pieces on a board. Baron Lite came from The Baron Game, which had no rules in common with it (and which remains a secret in case I one day pursue something like it).
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