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Author Topic: Interview with Donald X.  (Read 2136858 times)

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theory

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1300 on: May 07, 2014, 10:54:17 am »
+4

I don't think ta56636 was referring to Farmville-style mechanics or a pay-to-win system: what he meant is, a really successful single-player game rewards the player through a positive feedback loop.  For example: in an RPG, success means your character keeps leveling up and gains access to more powerful things, allowing you to experience even more success. 

One way you might be able to simulate this on Goko is an alternative Celestial Chameleon game mode.  Pick X cards from a group of Y, and then you get 5 turns to score as much as you can, trying to beat an AI.  Success means you unlock additional cards that you can include in your deck.  This avoids issues of pay-to-win but also lets people pay for something if they want it.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1301 on: May 07, 2014, 11:14:16 am »
0

I've seen you say many times that you would much rather create a Dominion spin-off at this point rather than another expansion. What sort of ideas/mechanics would qualify as a spin-off? Have you already created spin-offs that you either killed off or would consider releasing after further refinement?

Feel free to just post a link if you've answered these questions before (or elaborate more and reveal your secret dominion plans).
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DStu

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1302 on: May 07, 2014, 11:16:15 am »
+1

Have you already created spin-offs that you either killed off or would consider releasing after further refinement?

Feel free to just post a link if you've answered these questions before (or elaborate more and reveal your secret dominion plans).
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg165021#msg165021
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ta56636

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1303 on: May 07, 2014, 03:40:46 pm »
0

I don't think ta56636 was referring to Farmville-style mechanics or a pay-to-win system: what he meant is, a really successful single-player game rewards the player through a positive feedback loop.  For example: in an RPG, success means your character keeps leveling up and gains access to more powerful things, allowing you to experience even more success. 

Exactly.  I was also probing whether it is possible to make a philosophical leap between different types of 'reward' loop behaviour.

Well feel free to outline somewhere exactly what you'd like to see in online Dominion. The Making Fun guys may well be interested.

How can I resist that?  To quote a quote from my Facebook feed this morning "The absence of proper research, however, need not stop us ..." (ie. I know I don't really know what I'm talking about.)

That said: It's really tempting to look at what you should do now (e.g. delete adventure mode, remove game lobbies, etc. etc.)

However I think it's actually more interesting to think what would you want the final product to look like.

Off the top of my head I'd be aiming for something like:

Casual Play (including vs. AI, Friends and predetermined kingdoms)
Ranked Play
and maybe one other well crafted game mode

Crucially beyond that (and I look at the dominion community - and I see an absurd amount of programming talent per capita), and I'd be focusing very heavily on enabling user generated content (be it new game modes, new cards, tournament structures, complete game overhauls etc.) that then could be sold with the developer and the creator taking a cut each.

Within this I'd be looking at:
A total cost of around £10-£15 for paid content
An iPad/android version (mainly to finance the above)
Rotating 'free' cards (like league of legends free heroes) to enable a taste for all players beyond the base game
An exist strategy (one of the main reasons I haven't bought more than a couple of expansions in Goko, is that I simply don't trust that one day in the not too distant future it simply won't be there)

Pie in the sky: probably.  But then we can all dream...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:41:50 pm by ta56636 »
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1304 on: May 07, 2014, 04:58:50 pm »
+6

Was their notion of "Farmville Dominion" having you build a Kingdom and unlocking certain cards after a number of "achievements".  Like, you know, build a moat around your Castle to be able to use the Moat card.

"Come visit my Kingdom and water my grape vines.  I need to build a Vineyards!"
I don't know what the details were for the earlier guys, just that they wanted to make a micropayments game of some sort with the Dominion brand. For Goko you can at least see that they had the idea that somehow zaps would make money, despite making their existence unpleasant and not charging money for them.
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hsiale

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1305 on: May 07, 2014, 05:12:40 pm »
0

I guess they wanted to make something similar to Catan World (which was their take on Settlers of Catan, probably Settlers' publisher didn't stop them and what they created was awful even compared to Settlers).
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1306 on: May 07, 2014, 05:13:58 pm »
+1

I don't think ta56636 was referring to Farmville-style mechanics or a pay-to-win system: what he meant is, a really successful single-player game rewards the player through a positive feedback loop.  For example: in an RPG, success means your character keeps leveling up and gains access to more powerful things, allowing you to experience even more success. 
I was referring to Farmville though, prior to being called upon to discuss Skinner boxes. "Positive feedback" isn't the same thing as "Skinner box." I like building up my guy, but in say Fallout 3, I'm having novel experiences the whole way; I'm exploring different places and doing different things and even building up my guy differently. I'm not being conditioned to press the lever at intervals or stay out of the left half of the box. I will learn things about the game world that will keep coming up - kill that particular monster from a distance - but really, no connection to Skinner boxes.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1307 on: May 07, 2014, 05:22:34 pm »
+5

I've seen you say many times that you would much rather create a Dominion spin-off at this point rather than another expansion. What sort of ideas/mechanics would qualify as a spin-off? Have you already created spin-offs that you either killed off or would consider releasing after further refinement?

Feel free to just post a link if you've answered these questions before (or elaborate more and reveal your secret dominion plans).
The first spin-off turned into Kingdom Builder. The second spin-off, minus the deckbuilding, is a game that's coming out this year. It hasn't been announced yet but for sure it is coming. I am pretty pleased with it and have made an expansion that obv. will only come out if the game is successful enough.

Keeping the deckbuilding in is apparently a problem for me. I don't want to have it just to have it; it has to be better to keep it.

Originally I thought the spin-offs would be like, it's Dominion but there's a board and you have ships on it that sail around, so now there can be "+1 Move" and stuff. And the board always matters so it's not like an expansion where we would set up the board and then not buy that card, or have the issue that the cards got better when more than one was out. That all sounded easy and good. And I guess it's still on the table if I get desperate.

At this point a lot of people have made "it's just Dominion but with a little extra" so that's not so compelling anymore. Now I feel like the spin-off has to be more different. To qualify as a spin-off, you will have a deck that you build during the game; the rest is up in the air.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1308 on: May 07, 2014, 05:30:33 pm »
+5

Exactly.  I was also probing whether it is possible to make a philosophical leap between different types of 'reward' loop behaviour.
You're just saying that because of the tiny thrill each completed post gives you.

That said: It's really tempting to look at what you should do now (e.g. delete adventure mode, remove game lobbies, etc. etc.)
I don't see any beauty to deleting adventure mode. The existing adventures suck, but plenty of people would enjoy playing sets of games vs. bots with pre-chosen sets-of-10. Obv. the lobbies should go, replaced by a matchmaking system as proposed in another thread.

Crucially beyond that (and I look at the dominion community - and I see an absurd amount of programming talent per capita), and I'd be focusing very heavily on enabling user generated content (be it new game modes, new cards, tournament structures, complete game overhauls etc.) that then could be sold with the developer and the creator taking a cut each.
They are eager to enable user-generated content, but do not be hoping for user-generated cards.

An iPad/android version (mainly to finance the above)
They certainly want that.

Rotating 'free' cards (like league of legends free heroes) to enable a taste for all players beyond the base game
All cards are rotating free if you consider that you can play against another human who has cards you don't. I sprinkled in some other-set cards into a few of the fixed adventures, including the main set one (which everyone has access to). Having a free card-of-the-week or something has been proposed.

An exist strategy (one of the main reasons I haven't bought more than a couple of expansions in Goko, is that I simply don't trust that one day in the not too distant future it simply won't be there)
The only exit strategy on the table currently is potentially having the option to pay by the month.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1309 on: May 07, 2014, 05:36:19 pm »
+2

I guess they wanted to make something similar to Catan World (which was their take on Settlers of Catan, probably Settlers' publisher didn't stop them and what they created was awful even compared to Settlers).
I should be clear that by "earlier guys" I meant guys who never worked on online Dominion.

Other people wanted to make online Dominion; Jay had to pick guys to go with. One group that was in the running wanted to make some kind of Farmville Dominion. Jay did not go with them. He went with Goko, who wanted the game to work on every platform ever.

Goko then also wanted some kind of micropayment thing. Perhaps partly because we weren't interested, and partly due to not thinking it through, what they ended up with was no fun and could not make money.
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ta56636

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1310 on: May 07, 2014, 05:52:48 pm »
0

Exactly.  I was also probing whether it is possible to make a philosophical leap between different types of 'reward' loop behaviour.
You're just saying that because of the tiny thrill each completed post gives you.

I have clearly offended you - I apologise for that, it was not my intent.

I'll make one final post on the subject to try and clarify what I was trying to say and then leave it.

In Diablo II (a game not dissimilar to Fallout 3), you could argue that you are conditioned to expect meaningful loot when you kill a monster (normally by repeatedly clicking).  At the start of the game this happens every few minutes.  As the game progresses the intervals become longer and longer, and yet you keep clicking.  Obviously there are many more levels to it then that (and of course the world exploration and game mechanics make a more complex scenario), but I still believe there is a underlying comparison to the skinner box.

I'm not sure where I went wrong in this discussion, and how it became so sour, but I will try and work it out. :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 05:54:58 pm by ta56636 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1311 on: May 07, 2014, 06:09:17 pm »
+1

You've talked a lot about why spin-offs are better than more expansions, but not much about the other way around. Let's take your example of Dominion-with-a-Board, or DWAB. Although the board gives you new things to do, presumably a lot of the old things are still valid. In theory, this means that you'd just be reusing a bunch of card effects from Dominion. Smithy, for instance, is strongly likely to make an appearance.

Maybe I'm wrong. If nothing else, I suppose the cost system could be wholly different. You may get rid of the restrictions on Actions or Buys. That would severely reduce the number of cards you could make, but they would be supplemented by the new board-based effects.

The other thing is that it just seems to me that you already made a deck-building game. All your other released/announced games are very different from Dominion and from each other.


As someone who already plays mostly with 2 sets at a time, I'm biased, but personally I'd rather see more expansions like Alchemy that need/want multiple cards out at once. Sure, part of the beauty of Dominion is being able to combine everything, but if that's standing in the way of creating more Dominion experiences, then maybe it's not worth mandating.

One possibility is combining the ideas of "spin-off" and "expansion". Released under a name like Dominion Advanced, they could require that you use at least X Advanced cards, but you could also mix them with your existing Dominion sets. You could even require that players already own Dominion; it's popular enough.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1312 on: May 07, 2014, 06:46:03 pm »
+2

You're just saying that because of the tiny thrill each completed post gives you.

I have clearly offended you - I apologise for that, it was not my intent.
I was just being hilarious dude. If you spelled apologize with a z you would never think I'd been offended there. (I am saying that Americans are rude (it's either that, or I'm some kind of monster).)

In Diablo II (a game not dissimilar to Fallout 3), you could argue that you are conditioned to expect meaningful loot when you kill a monster (normally by repeatedly clicking).  At the start of the game this happens every few minutes.  As the game progresses the intervals become longer and longer, and yet you keep clicking.  Obviously there are many more levels to it then that (and of course the world exploration and game mechanics make a more complex scenario), but I still believe there is a underlying comparison to the skinner box.
I don't think Diablo II is much like Fallout 3. Diablo II is much more repetitive. A huge part of the joy of Fallout 3 is exploring the world; Diablo II just does not compare there.

I played a game of Fallout 3 in which I mostly didn't even take loot from monsters. I decided to play as a mute guy. The horrors of the wasteland struck me dumb. So, I couldn't go to stores, I couldn't go on quests that required talking to someone. I couldn't get a house; all I could have was what I could carry. At some point most loot is useless. There's no point opening that toolbox, seeing what that ghoul was carrying; I'm not taking it. I didn't stop killing the ghouls that crossed my path; I wasn't killing them for the loot. No Skinner box whatsoever. You can try pointing at the experience you get for killing them, but I was never eagerly waiting for that next level, plus you eventually hit a level cap and are not looking to rush that.

(Eventually I looked at a tape about the missing android, and after that a woman would periodically run up to me to talk about the android. She forces you to talk to her and is unkillable. So I had to run away from her. I was stalked across the wasteland by this woman.)

Diablo II has elements of a Skinner box game, to use the term people use. Those elements make it a worse game; I went back to Fallout 3, I didn't go back to Diablo II. I'm not in it for the grinding.

In general intervals don't really become longer in RPG-type games. I don't have specific data on Diablo II here. But you know. The RPG thing. You're level one and fight goblins; later you're level ten and fighting giants. The battles are different but similar; the fights scale to your level. It's as hard to kill the typical high level monster when you're high level as it was to kill the typical low level monster when you were low level. You get a longer fight by fighting something above your level, or a boss.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1313 on: May 07, 2014, 07:03:59 pm »
+2

You've talked a lot about why spin-offs are better than more expansions, but not much about the other way around.
The advantage an expansion has over Dominion is that you can combine it with Dominion. You already have so much of that that that isn't swaying me. That that that.

Let's take your example of Dominion-with-a-Board, or DWAB. Although the board gives you new things to do, presumably a lot of the old things are still valid. In theory, this means that you'd just be reusing a bunch of card effects from Dominion. Smithy, for instance, is strongly likely to make an appearance.
The potential deckbuilding games I've worked on so far have not reused much from Dominion.

Any game with cards will have certain things that overlap - there are cards you draw and so a card can draw cards. Smithy is in lots of games. At the same time I try to focus on whatever is unique to that game, to do the new things that are possible, to do the classic effects that don't always work. A good example is "Return a card from your discard pile to your hand." It's a Magic staple but doesn't make sense for most games. So, when it does make sense, I go for it.

Anyway that isn't an issue; I am not looking at making a deckbuilding game with a huge card-mix overlap with Dominion.

Maybe I'm wrong. If nothing else, I suppose the cost system could be wholly different. You may get rid of the restrictions on Actions or Buys. That would severely reduce the number of cards you could make, but they would be supplemented by the new board-based effects.
The way to think of deckbuilding is, it's like a tableau, but with reduced complexity, because you aren't staring at all of it all the time. A tableau, like the cards you spread out in front of you in Race for the Galaxy / San Juan. You have a bunch of abilities and as it happens you shuffle them together.

Are tableau games stuck being clones of Race for the Galaxy? They aren't.

The other thing is that it just seems to me that you already made a deck-building game. All your other released/announced games are very different from Dominion and from each other.
I don't know what you mean by this. Yes I already made one. And publishers and fans would like another one.

As someone who already plays mostly with 2 sets at a time, I'm biased, but personally I'd rather see more expansions like Alchemy that need/want multiple cards out at once. Sure, part of the beauty of Dominion is being able to combine everything, but if that's standing in the way of creating more Dominion experiences, then maybe it's not worth mandating.
Enough people didn't like that that it doesn't make sense to do it. I should do something else, that isn't known to have issues.

You see this a lot on Mark Rosewater's blog. People say over and over how they want to return to Kamigawa. It was an unpopular setting so they are not returning there. It makes no sense to return there. Having fans doesn't change the fact that some other thing would have more fans.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1314 on: May 08, 2014, 03:41:30 pm »
0

I see you've mentioned Fallout 3 a few times...are you a fan of the Elder Scrolls games at all? I absolutely loved Morrowind, Oblivion not as much. Skyrim is really fun and beautiful, but it feels like it doesn't have quite the same "depth" as its predecessors.
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KingZog3

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1315 on: May 08, 2014, 03:51:27 pm »
0

I see you've mentioned Fallout 3 a few times...are you a fan of the Elder Scrolls games at all? I absolutely loved Morrowind, Oblivion not as much. Skyrim is really fun and beautiful, but it feels like it doesn't have quite the same "depth" as its predecessors.

Skyrim has less variety in terms of locations, but you didnt like Oblivion? Those Oblivion gates are lots of fun and interesting, and the locations are pretty varied and have lots of interactivity.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1316 on: May 08, 2014, 03:58:53 pm »
0

I'm gonna disagree with you, those Oblivion gates annoyed the hell out of me after a while. And I found the locations to be quite bland compared with Morrowind. Morrowind was this trippy otherworldly realm with ashlands and wizard towers and houses made from insect carapaces...Oblivion was like, a European forest, and a slightly more northerly European forest.

I know a lot of people liked Oblivion though. It did have some memorable scenes, like that murder mystery, and going inside the oil painting. However it was my least favorite of the three I've played.
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KingZog3

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1317 on: May 08, 2014, 04:56:56 pm »
0

I'm gonna disagree with you, those Oblivion gates annoyed the hell out of me after a while. And I found the locations to be quite bland compared with Morrowind. Morrowind was this trippy otherworldly realm with ashlands and wizard towers and houses made from insect carapaces...Oblivion was like, a European forest, and a slightly more northerly European forest.

I know a lot of people liked Oblivion though. It did have some memorable scenes, like that murder mystery, and going inside the oil painting. However it was my least favorite of the three I've played.

But Skyrim locations are essentially one of three things. Undead, Bandits or Dwarven ruins (which are no where near as fun as the aylid ruins). Yeah the gates dragged on bit too far, but at the same time they were unique and I kind of missed them in the end when they disappear. Also the Shivering Isles were a lot of fun.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1318 on: May 08, 2014, 06:15:27 pm »
+3

I see you've mentioned Fallout 3 a few times...are you a fan of the Elder Scrolls games at all? I absolutely loved Morrowind, Oblivion not as much. Skyrim is really fun and beautiful, but it feels like it doesn't have quite the same "depth" as its predecessors.
I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim.

Walking around in both games is fun. In Skyrim when you pick a flower, it shows that you picked it; in Oblivion, the flowers look better. Skyrim maybe gets the edge here; it gets a lot out of its environment premise.

In both games, dungeons are not as good as wilderness. They are just too repetitive. They kind of tried to address this in Skyrim but it's still true, except that one place, that was cool. The Oblivion planes are cool very very briefly, then crazy repetitive. For a 2nd play-through, just never do anything on the main quest, and so much for that nonsense.

Combat in both games is bad. You have had the experience almost immediately. I would recommend that they try something drastically different there next time, or make a game with no combat.

Both games have bad interface problems. Oblivion is mostly okay but man you could do with a better way to sell stuff. In Skyrim you are horribly punished for wanting to make potions. And unreadable perk trees, what's up with that. Oh they're so pretty and awful.

It's cool that the world scales to meet your level, once you know about it. It's bad when you don't know about it, and they could have been clearer there. But you know, you will not see everything in your first play-through of Oblivion. You can start over, teleport to a random town you haven't hung out in, and be a 1st level adventurer there; you aren't stuck playing the easy areas, they are all easy. The way you get better at skills works well for some skills, not so well for others. I don't want the game telling me to just randomly cast light spells a lot so my illusion skill can go up.

They did a poor job on the perks in Skyrim, even ignoring the interface, but it's still nicer to have them than not.

Overall I enjoyed both games, would play another. Not an MMO, but a real game, sure. Shivering Isles was fun, it was sad that the main plot was so much like the Oblivion gates, and the dungeons again get real repetitive real fast, but the giant mushrooms keep you entertained for the duration. I haven't played any DLC.

Fallout 3 is a step up in almost all respects. Combat is not great but still way better. Exploring the world is great. The dungeons get repetitive, especially the ruined subways, but they stay entertaining for longer; like, this is just another vault, but they each have a gimmick. Building up your guy is more fun; the perks are way better (though still room for improvement there). The interface has no major problems, wtf. You don't get to pick flowers but well you can't have everything.

Fallout 3: New Vegas, sans DLC, sucks. The world sucks, that's the biggest thing. It just has so little to offer you.

I didn't try New Vegas until you could get a version with all the DLC. The first expansion, uh the hotel one, the environment outside is cute, would have made a nice section of F:NV, but the hotel is dull and overall it's not great. The second expansion, the canyon one, is very scenic and overall entertaining. The third expansion, the mad scientist crater, is fantastic, just fantastic. The fourth expansion, the uh bridge over the wasteland, is okay. So, to make New Vegas good, they could have combined all the DLC, focused on the mad scientist crater as the centerpiece, maybe a third of the map, had a nice section of canyon, another third, stuck the hotel outside area in a corner as one dungeon why not, had the 4th DLC as a subplot, and just had as little content from the actual New Vegas as possible.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1319 on: May 08, 2014, 10:22:21 pm »
0

I actually love New Vegas. I like the smaller locations, and the big ones were unique. This is my opinion though and many people disagree. I also liked the more settlements in the world. the perks were 100% better than Fallout 3. Fallout 3 basically had perks that increased your skills. New Vegas perks allowed you to create characters that specialized in certain areas. From a design perspective, the perks and level system was way better in Fallout: NV than Fallout 3. Also there were way more quests and the creatures essentially didn't level up with you at all. Deathclaws are Deathclaws, Super mutants have a few variations. but they appear at nearly every stage of the game, so you actually have to avoid areas when you're weak which I also really liked.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1320 on: May 09, 2014, 02:09:02 am »
0

I actually love New Vegas. I like the smaller locations, and the big ones were unique. This is my opinion though and many people disagree. I also liked the more settlements in the world. the perks were 100% better than Fallout 3. Fallout 3 basically had perks that increased your skills. New Vegas perks allowed you to create characters that specialized in certain areas. From a design perspective, the perks and level system was way better in Fallout: NV than Fallout 3. Also there were way more quests and the creatures essentially didn't level up with you at all. Deathclaws are Deathclaws, Super mutants have a few variations. but they appear at nearly every stage of the game, so you actually have to avoid areas when you're weak which I also really liked.
You do notice the lack of stores in Fallout 3, especially if you were hoping to not just teleport around. Rivet City is in the corner; man, I guess I'm teleporting.

My memory of New Vegas deathclaws was, you stand on a rock, you shoot the deathclaw, it runs away, you get off the rock, it runs towards you, you get on the rock, you shoot it. The deathclaws in Fallout 3 were better, they mauled you.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1321 on: May 09, 2014, 10:16:27 am »
0

I actually love New Vegas. I like the smaller locations, and the big ones were unique. This is my opinion though and many people disagree. I also liked the more settlements in the world. the perks were 100% better than Fallout 3. Fallout 3 basically had perks that increased your skills. New Vegas perks allowed you to create characters that specialized in certain areas. From a design perspective, the perks and level system was way better in Fallout: NV than Fallout 3. Also there were way more quests and the creatures essentially didn't level up with you at all. Deathclaws are Deathclaws, Super mutants have a few variations. but they appear at nearly every stage of the game, so you actually have to avoid areas when you're weak which I also really liked.
You do notice the lack of stores in Fallout 3, especially if you were hoping to not just teleport around. Rivet City is in the corner; man, I guess I'm teleporting.

My memory of New Vegas deathclaws was, you stand on a rock, you shoot the deathclaw, it runs away, you get off the rock, it runs towards you, you get on the rock, you shoot it. The deathclaws in Fallout 3 were better, they mauled you.

Well they maul you in NV too. Just that after Fallout 3 you figure out how to break their game. You can do the same trick in F3 to avoid getting hit by deathclaws. NV had the caves with alpha female deathclaws that you couldn't hop away from. They mauled you so fast you were unsure of what just happened.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1322 on: May 09, 2014, 12:48:26 pm »
+1

Donald,  surely at some point you considered having a card raise costs or have a card interact with the bottom of your deck.  Did you ever have any success along those lines?  Did you ever reach a point where you decided they just couldn't work, and if so what is the hurdle as you see it?

Edit:  other than pearl diver.  You know, success :-p
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:54:43 pm by SirPeebles »
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1323 on: May 09, 2014, 06:29:11 pm »
+5

Donald,  surely at some point you considered having a card raise costs or have a card interact with the bottom of your deck.  Did you ever have any success along those lines?  Did you ever reach a point where you decided they just couldn't work, and if so what is the hurdle as you see it?

Edit:  other than pearl diver.  You know, success :-p
When you have multiple cards that interact with the top, they can interact with each other. The same applies to the bottom, but because it's wonkier, there will be fewer of those cards, so it's less likely you will see those interactions. So, there's not much point to doing much with it. So I never did much with the bottom, and you can quote me out of context on that.

Stash originally went on top rather than letting you choose, and at the same time there was a VP card that went on the bottom. I also had a version of Pearl Diver that had you look at the bottom and choose to put it on top or not.

Tax Collector from Seaside was "cards cost $1 less this turn, then $1 more until your next turn." It turned into Cutpurse, because Valerie didn't like that the timing on the duration was different there (the rule was that a card stayed out until the end of the last turn it did something, but Valerie didn't like that that turn was a different turn than usual for Tax Collector). These days I probably wouldn't make it due to anticipating people hating it. I considered tokens that changed pile costs, put on piles ala Embargo, put Trade Route used up the space of putting coin tokens on piles, so it would need to be a new kind of token, so it never looked that good. I also considered a rules-changing card like Baker - "In games using this" - that would change the cost of one basic pile. It was on the table for the promo but I didn't do one of those.
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soulnet

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #1324 on: May 09, 2014, 07:50:31 pm »
+3

I also had a version of Pearl Diver that had you look at the bottom and choose to put it on top or not.

This is the published version of Pearl Diver. Or by "or not" you mean something else? Like, the option of discarding instead of leaving on the bottom, would be too powerful? It would self-synergize a lot more.
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