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[Witherweaver]

If you could choose two (famous) people to play in a game of Dominion, who would they be and why?

...
My favorite band is Game Theory / Loud Family (all other members quit so he changed the name). Since they are obscure and local, I have gotten to chat with the guy a few times, although I was somewhat starstruck. My favorite movie is Brazil; I will probably never meet Terry Gilliam. If he wants to hang out sometime then man I am there, it sounds like good times, but it's not like I think, oh, if only. There would probably be too much of a disconnect to enjoy meeting David Lynch or Robert Pollard. Woody Allen and Stephin Merritt would just be trying to get it over with. My favorite novel is Little, Big; I have no real concept of that guy, I'm not sure what we'd talk about. I'd go for Gene Wolfe for novels I think.

So this was old, but I didn't read it all before.  Stephin Merritt is one of my favorite artists (I'm a huge Magnetic Fields fan).  I feel like it would be really cool to meet him, except that I feel I'd be struggling for something interesting to say and he'd probably think I was boring.

[Donald X.]

Without defending those cards, I don't think the analysis is fair. We could say "Procession only uses two known mechanics, Throne Room and Upgrade." or "King's Court is overpowered. I fixed it by making it cheaper but only play the action twice." So, is there nothing new about KC or Procession? I think there is. Other than being clearly OP or UP or exactly equal to an existing card, there is almost no way to know if a card is novel without playtesting it and noticing is not really adding anything new. Procession plays really differently to both TR and Upgrade.

Your Procession / King's Court arguments don't actually match any of my points about those Books of Magic cards. My post about the Books of Magic cards is about the lack of value to me in me reading them. The four examples from that set do not have ideas I had not come across previously. I'd tried multiple versions of all four concepts.

None of them were "two existing concepts but it's cool to pair them, did you think of that." None of them were "bigger version of an existing thing but maybe that has value." None of them were "novel take on an existing concept and hey why is that so bad, even if Donald X. doesn't find it fascinating." I mean look at the cards. Maybe the "+$3, trash this" one looks novel enough to you, but I played multiple versions of that in 2006.

If I had made zero Dominion cards, it would be fair to say, here are some concepts, maybe they can be whipped into shape. You'd be right; I did whip my versions into shape. They are fine raw concepts from that perspective, and it's not even embarrassing to start with an un-whipped-into-shape version. That's all in the past though; those particular card concepts aren't getting me anything now. And sure, maybe there's a pairing of two concepts that I haven't done that's cool enough to do, or maybe there's a card that would be exciting enough in a "big" version that I haven't made. That's just nothing to do with my comments on those cards.

[Donald X.]

So this was old, but I didn't read it all before.  Stephin Merritt is one of my favorite artists (I'm a huge Magnetic Fields fan).  I feel like it would be really cool to meet him, except that I feel I'd be struggling for something interesting to say and he'd probably think I was boring.

In the early oughts I ranked him as my 3rd favorite band. At this point I would put him lower (if I put in the work to make a thought-out list); the new stuff over the last ten years just doesn't compare to the ten years before it. Partygoing is a mild return-to-form, but still is a far cry from I. Well this is taking into account that the operas and Gothic Archies album were all older material finally released. Well so what I am saying is that Distortion, Reality, and Love at the Bottom of the Sea were all progressively more disappointing.

Anyway yes, I somehow have nothing but bad things to say as usual, but he had an amazing body of work going into the late oughts. Those of you who don't know the man, try a few things from 69 Love Songs on youtube, see what you think.

Some uh "rock stars" have endless positive interactions with fans, and some just want to be left alone. I forget what I read that made me put Merritt in the "leave me alone" camp.

Edit: sry, Realism, not Reality; must have gotten confused by the Bowie album.

[soulnet]

Your Procession / King's Court arguments don't actually match any of my points about those Books of Magic cards. My post about the Books of Magic cards is about the lack of value to me in me reading them. The four examples from that set do not have ideas I had not come across previously. I'd tried multiple versions of all four concepts.

None of them were "two existing concepts but it's cool to pair them, did you think of that." None of them were "bigger version of an existing thing but maybe that has value." None of them were "novel take on an existing concept and hey why is that so bad, even if Donald X. doesn't find it fascinating." I mean look at the cards. Maybe the "+$3, trash this" one looks novel enough to you, but I played multiple versions of that in 2006.

If I had made zero Dominion cards, it would be fair to say, here are some concepts, maybe they can be whipped into shape. You'd be right; I did whip my versions into shape. They are fine raw concepts from that perspective, and it's not even embarrassing to start with an un-whipped-into-shape version. That's all in the past though; those particular card concepts aren't getting me anything now. And sure, maybe there's a pairing of two concepts that I haven't done that's cool enough to do, or maybe there's a card that would be exciting enough in a "big" version that I haven't made. That's just nothing to do with my comments on those cards.

My comment was not on the line of "DXV is a prejudicious jerk for not reading fan cards", but more like "even if someone, even DXV, thinks a concept is not novel because he tried something similar in a card or an outtake, it could be novel because slight differences may make it play really differently, and there is no way to really know other than playtesting". As I said before, this has nothing to do with the specific example of 4 cards, but as an idea in general.

[Witherweaver]

So this was old, but I didn't read it all before.  Stephin Merritt is one of my favorite artists (I'm a huge Magnetic Fields fan).  I feel like it would be really cool to meet him, except that I feel I'd be struggling for something interesting to say and he'd probably think I was boring.

In the early oughts I ranked him as my 3rd favorite band. At this point I would put him lower (if I put in the work to make a thought-out list); the new stuff over the last ten years just doesn't compare to the ten years before it. Partygoing is a mild return-to-form, but still is a far cry from I. Well this is taking into account that the operas and Gothic Archies album were all older material finally released. Well so what I am saying is that Distortion, Reality, and Love at the Bottom of the Sea were all progressively more disappointing.

Anyway yes, I somehow have nothing but bad things to say as usual, but he had an amazing body of work going into the late oughts. Those of you who don't know the man, try a few things from 69 Love Songs on youtube, see what you think.

Some uh "rock stars" have endless positive interactions with fans, and some just want to be left alone. I forget what I read that made me put Merritt in the "leave me alone" camp.

Edit: sry, Realism, not Reality; must have gotten confused by the Bowie album.

Did you see the documentary on him?  Strange Powers?  That's what put him that way for me.

I agree not much holds up to 69 Love Songs, or even Wayward Bus/Distant Plastic Trees.  I avoided getting Distortion because I really dislike noise music.  Love at the Bottom of the Sea I didn't fall in love with as much as 69 Love Songs, but damn those songs are hilarious. 

I haven't picked up the Future Bible Heroes new album yet, I'll have to do that.  Do you have both The 6th's albums? (Wasps' Nests and Hyacinths and Thistles.)  A lot of my favorite songs by him are on there, specifically on Wasps' Nests.

I've seen him once live, it was just awesome. (They were on tour for last album.)  I've never seen such a minimalistic music performance in a concert setting.  Just five people and their small collection of instruments.. nothing extra to take your focus off of them.  And he introduces each song in an awkward and funny way, as if he was just talking to one other person in a small room, or something. 

[Donald X.]

My comment was not on the line of "DXV is a prejudicious jerk for not reading fan cards", but more like "even if someone, even DXV, thinks a concept is not novel because he tried something similar in a card or an outtake, it could be novel because slight differences may make it play really differently, and there is no way to really know other than playtesting". As I said before, this has nothing to do with the specific example of 4 cards, but as an idea in general.

I'm here to tell you that those concepts are not "novel because slight differences" etc. They aren't. It has everything to do with those specific 4 cards - some other cards might be novel because of slight differences. Those 4, no. I read them and everything.

Edit: Okay, so maybe you just think, why would I use particular cards as examples? To have examples, that's why. I don't expect to find cards that are novel even due to slight differences when I read fan cards; but hey, let's try an experiment, I'll look at some cards. And I looked at some. I didn't pick and choose; they were the first four in the first fan expansion on BGG. Time does not permit analyzing every fan card.

[Witherweaver]

Your Procession / King's Court arguments don't actually match any of my points about those Books of Magic cards. My post about the Books of Magic cards is about the lack of value to me in me reading them. The four examples from that set do not have ideas I had not come across previously. I'd tried multiple versions of all four concepts.

None of them were "two existing concepts but it's cool to pair them, did you think of that." None of them were "bigger version of an existing thing but maybe that has value." None of them were "novel take on an existing concept and hey why is that so bad, even if Donald X. doesn't find it fascinating." I mean look at the cards. Maybe the "+$3, trash this" one looks novel enough to you, but I played multiple versions of that in 2006.

If I had made zero Dominion cards, it would be fair to say, here are some concepts, maybe they can be whipped into shape. You'd be right; I did whip my versions into shape. They are fine raw concepts from that perspective, and it's not even embarrassing to start with an un-whipped-into-shape version. That's all in the past though; those particular card concepts aren't getting me anything now. And sure, maybe there's a pairing of two concepts that I haven't done that's cool enough to do, or maybe there's a card that would be exciting enough in a "big" version that I haven't made. That's just nothing to do with my comments on those cards.

My comment was not on the line of "DXV is a prejudicious jerk for not reading fan cards", but more like "even if someone, even DXV, thinks a concept is not novel because he tried something similar in a card or an outtake, it could be novel because slight differences may make it play really differently, and there is no way to really know other than playtesting". As I said before, this has nothing to do with the specific example of 4 cards, but as an idea in general.

But for those four cards in particular, if he were to take each idea and run with it and modify them during the playtesting, they'd end up exactly the same as four cards he has right now.  Because he basically came up with those ideas before, playtested them, modified them, and that's how some cards that are currently in the set came to be. 

In other words, there may be a lot of card ideas that aren't in the published set, but if you took them through a thorough balancing and testing process, they'd probably converge to cards that are printed, or close enough to them to not be worth it.  Each card that is currently printed represents a point in a converging sequence.  So there are a lot of card and card ideas that are not printed, but are still represented by current cards.

[Donald X.]

Did you see the documentary on him?  Strange Powers?  That's what put him that way for me.

I agree not much holds up to 69 Love Songs, or even Wayward Bus/Distant Plastic Trees.  I avoided getting Distortion because I really dislike noise music.  Love at the Bottom of the Sea I didn't fall in love with as much as 69 Love Songs, but damn those songs are hilarious. 

I haven't picked up the Future Bible Heroes new album yet, I'll have to do that.  Do you have both The 6th's albums? (Wasps' Nests and Hyacinths and Thistles.)  A lot of my favorite songs by him are on there, specifically on Wasps' Nests.

I've seen him once live, it was just awesome. (They were on tour for last album.)  I've never seen such a minimalistic music performance in a concert setting.  Just five people and their small collection of instruments.. nothing extra to take your focus off of them.  And he introduces each song in an awkward and funny way, as if he was just talking to one other person in a small room, or something.

I have not seen Strange Powers.

Even though 69 Love Songs is his best thing, I like plenty of things on Holiday, Get Lost, Memories of Love, Eternal Youth, Peach Blossom Fan, I, and the Tragic Treasury. I am thinking now maybe I am the bigger fan here.

I have pretty much had the experience. The House of Tomorrow EP is decent. The Gothic Archies EP released through the Hello Recording Club has just a few okay songs; it was later generally released as The New Despair. I like a couple songs on the I'm Lonely and I Love It EP. There are a few decent songs on the Eban and Charley soundtrack. The Lonely Robot EP is a dud. There are a few new good songs on the Pieces of April soundtrack. If you get the full version of the "Chinese operas," rather than the best-of Showtunes, then the best one is Peach Blossom Fan, though it has a few screechy tracks; then My Life As a Fairy Tale has a decent number of good songs; I only liked a couple tracks on Orphan of Zhao. I have some of the Tragic Treasury songs from when they were only available on books on tape; you don't need the originals, they are just shorter. Mr. Punch is a good song from a compilation (Neil Gaiman stuff); Meaning of Lice is a bad one. The best tracks on Obscurities are the unreleased ones; I already had most of the released stuff, the best being the 6ths track Yet Another Girl. I've heard his NPR song, but don't have it, I don't know if it's available anywhere. It's not any good anyway. There was a rare Gothic Archies on a compilation that wasn't any good. I can mildly appreciate his version of If I Were a Rich Man and the Future Bible Heroes take on Love Is Blue.

Anyway yes, I also have the 6ths albums. I like them fine. They are mixed, some hits and duds, but the hits are worth it. I am not actually much of a fan of Wayward Bus.

I saw the Future Bible Heroes once, with Scott Miller opening for them. I wouldn't really single out Merritt out as a live act from that one data point. For me what I look for in a concert is experiences I don't get from the records. It's cool for a while that "there's the guy, he's right there," but in the long run that's not getting me to the venue. Robyn Hitchcock stands out as a live act for me, he plays songs you won't otherwise hear (well in the days before someone was always taping everything anyway), and tells surreal stories.

[Asper]

I'm pretty sure there are possible card ideas that would be worth printing. As Dominion is a game where every card can allow something new, and as sometimes even minor changes can have a great effect on how a card works out, i find it impossible to believe that there are no good possibilities left.

I do understand that sifting through these possibilities has become much more time consuming than it used to be, though. From the point of a designer i can see how even if there are good ideas out there, trying to find them (even if it only meant reading through other peoples ideas) might be conceived as too much work to be worth it. After all, Donald does game design for a living. If he spends a year or so to find one good card idea, he might as well have made an entire new game instead. (I'm making up these times because i know nothing about board game design processes).

Anyhow, i'm not saying that looking through fan cards wasn't worth the time (i think there are some gems). I'm just saying it's Donalds time, and he decides what to do with it.

[Witherweaver]

Did you see the documentary on him?  Strange Powers?  That's what put him that way for me.

I agree not much holds up to 69 Love Songs, or even Wayward Bus/Distant Plastic Trees.  I avoided getting Distortion because I really dislike noise music.  Love at the Bottom of the Sea I didn't fall in love with as much as 69 Love Songs, but damn those songs are hilarious. 

I haven't picked up the Future Bible Heroes new album yet, I'll have to do that.  Do you have both The 6th's albums? (Wasps' Nests and Hyacinths and Thistles.)  A lot of my favorite songs by him are on there, specifically on Wasps' Nests.

I've seen him once live, it was just awesome. (They were on tour for last album.)  I've never seen such a minimalistic music performance in a concert setting.  Just five people and their small collection of instruments.. nothing extra to take your focus off of them.  And he introduces each song in an awkward and funny way, as if he was just talking to one other person in a small room, or something.

I have not seen Strange Powers.

Even though 69 Love Songs is his best thing, I like plenty of things on Holiday, Get Lost, Memories of Love, Eternal Youth, Peach Blossom Fan, I, and the Tragic Treasury. I am thinking now maybe I am the bigger fan here.

I have pretty much had the experience. The House of Tomorrow EP is decent. The Gothic Archies EP released through the Hello Recording Club has just a few okay songs; it was later generally released as The New Despair. I like a couple songs on the I'm Lonely and I Love It EP. There are a few decent songs on the Eban and Charley soundtrack. The Lonely Robot EP is a dud. There are a few new good songs on the Pieces of April soundtrack. If you get the full version of the "Chinese operas," rather than the best-of Showtunes, then the best one is Peach Blossom Fan, though it has a few screechy tracks; then My Life As a Fairy Tale has a decent number of good songs; I only liked a couple tracks on Orphan of Zhao. I have some of the Tragic Treasury songs from when they were only available on books on tape; you don't need the originals, they are just shorter. Mr. Punch is a good song from a compilation (Neil Gaiman stuff); Meaning of Lice is a bad one. The best tracks on Obscurities are the unreleased ones; I already had most of the released stuff, the best being the 6ths track Yet Another Girl. I've heard his NPR song, but don't have it, I don't know if it's available anywhere. It's not any good anyway. There was a rare Gothic Archies on a compilation that wasn't any good. I can mildly appreciate his version of If I Were a Rich Man and the Future Bible Heroes take on Love Is Blue.

Anyway yes, I also have the 6ths albums. I like them fine. They are mixed, some hits and duds, but the hits are worth it. I am not actually much of a fan of Wayward Bus.

I saw the Future Bible Heroes once, with Scott Miller opening for them. I wouldn't really single out Merritt out as a live act from that one data point. For me what I look for in a concert is experiences I don't get from the records. It's cool for a while that "there's the guy, he's right there," but in the long run that's not getting me to the venue. Robyn Hitchcock stands out as a live act for me, he plays songs you won't otherwise hear (well in the days before someone was always taping everything anyway), and tells surreal stories.

Sounds like you've been following him for a while.  And your collection is more complete than mine, so hat's off   I hadn't heard of him until about five or six years ago when someone got me 69 Love Songs for my birthday (best gift ever).  So then I gradually collected most of his other stuff.  I have The New Despair and The Tragic Treasury, and Eternal Youth, though not the other Future Bible Heroes ones.  I have Obscurities, though not many of the EPs or soundtracks.  I do have House of Tomorrow EP, and I really like those songs.   Especially Love Goes Home to Paris in the Spring.

The more I listen, the more I find myself liking the older songs, the ones on Wayward Bus and Distant Plastic Trees.  I think it's for largely emotional reasons.  Some of the lines just get to me (in, e.g., Old Orchard Beach, Candy, 100,000 Fireflies, Summer Lies).  Get Lost is one of my favorite albums, too.  Actually, I think I mispoke when I said not much holds up to 69 Love Songs.. I just meant I would say it's the best album, kind of the magnum opus.  If I had to list the other tops I would pick: Get Lost, Wayward Bus, Wasps' Nests, Holiday, Distant Plastic Trees.  All the others I still like, and each one has at least one track on it that stands out to me.

I suggest watching Strange Powers.  There is a lot of interesting things in there, like some of his concepts behind the albums, what they use for some of the weirder sounds, and just watching Stephin Merritt talk about stuff.  Pretty early in the documentary Claudia Gonson (I believe) says something to the effect that her typical idea of a Magnetic Fields fan was a teenage girl or a gay teenage boy.  The girl I went to see the movie with my pointed at me and laughed :/

[Donald X.]

I suggest watching Strange Powers.  There is a lot of interesting things in there, like some of his concepts behind the albums, what they use for some of the weirder sounds, and just watching Stephin Merritt talk about stuff.  Pretty early in the documentary Claudia Gonson (I believe) says something to the effect that her typical idea of a Magnetic Fields fan was a teenage girl or a gay teenage boy.  The girl I went to see the movie with my pointed at me and laughed :/

Well some of his stuff is very show-tune-y. You could try show tunes; I like plenty of stuff there. Anyone who appreciates, say, Nothing Matters When We're Dancing, should check out Irving Berlin. Merritt himself is a big fan.

[Witherweaver]

I suggest watching Strange Powers.  There is a lot of interesting things in there, like some of his concepts behind the albums, what they use for some of the weirder sounds, and just watching Stephin Merritt talk about stuff.  Pretty early in the documentary Claudia Gonson (I believe) says something to the effect that her typical idea of a Magnetic Fields fan was a teenage girl or a gay teenage boy.  The girl I went to see the movie with my pointed at me and laughed :/

Well some of his stuff is very show-tune-y. You could try show tunes; I like plenty of stuff there. Anyone who appreciates, say, Nothing Matters When We're Dancing, should check out Irving Berlin. Merritt himself is a big fan.

I'll do that, thanks.  I'll check out Irving Berlin, too.. Nothing Matters When We're Dancing is one of my favorites.  I guess A Pretty Girl is Like is an Irving Berlin reference (or, correction) as well.

[ChocophileBenj]

Who do you play Dominion with the most ? And are there some "famous" people in the world of the Board game (game designers, or also game illustrators...) you have played with ?

[Donald X.]

Who do you play Dominion with the most ? And are there some "famous" people in the world of the Board game (game designers, or also game illustrators...) you have played with ?

In person, I've played the most with Molly, Josephine, and Destry, who you may recognize from their knights, and a later group that included Bill Barksdale, Steve Wampler, Alex Bishop, Vinay Baliga, and Zach Kessler. Online I played the most with Bill, (Sir) Michael M. Landers, John Vogel, and Anthony Rubbo, though in the early days a few other people played a bunch too, including Chris West (Sir Vander), Miikka Notkola, and P. Colin Street. I haven't played in a few weeks, but these days I mostly just play against the bots; I want to take a break for 15 minutes, guess I'll play some Dominion. In person I am playtesting other things. When I playtested the promo several months ago, Kent Bunn and Kevin White were regulars. I've played with plenty of other people, but you know, not as regularly.

I've played online lots with Anthony Rubbo (he's not so famous but has a few published games at this point, including Hey Waiter and Renaissance Man); I've played online some with Tom Lehmann (Race for the Galaxy etc.) and Wei-Hwa Huang (upcoming Roll for the Galaxy, work on Race). Richard Garfield playtested for Seaside but I didn't play with him (though I've played a bunch of my other games with him).

[ehunt]

Is there still conventional wisdom around these parts about Dominion strategy that you reject?

[Donald X.]

Is there still conventional wisdom around these parts about Dominion strategy that you reject?

I'm okay with saying "yes this card we all know is bad is bad" but in general it doesn't seem like good times for me to be trying to give out strategy tips, even if at this point I'm not going to be the foremost expert. It just carries some weight if I say it. Maybe I've broken this rule over and over, but you have not tempted me to on this occasion.

[Watno]

I don't think this question was asking about strategy tips, and more of asking wether there was stuff left to to find out. I don't think "There's stuff you're terribly wrong about, but I won't tell you what it is" would be a strategy tuip, and I read the question as aiming to something like that (and I'm quite curious about that as well).

[ehunt]

Yes, sorry, I meant it as a yes/no question!

[Donald X.]

Yes, sorry, I meant it as a yes/no question!

I don't know, I would like need to look at a list of conventional wisdoms. You guys focus on 2-player, so probably you have stuff to learn about multiplayer.

Like I said, it's not like I'm the expert at this point; probably I disagree about something incorrectly. It was fun watching you guys say how awful Remake and Jack would be, but those were easy lessons and you are past that point. You could ask a top player what they think you're all wrong about.

If I did say there was something, people would just try to figure out what it was. But whoever you are, odds are you could get better, one way or another. There's this trick, here is some very broad strategy advice: thinking there's an answer helps you find the answer.

[soulnet]

thinking there's an answer helps you find the answer.

Unless you are doing math.

[eHalcyon]

thinking there's an answer helps you find the answer.

Unless you are doing math.

Actually, it helps with math too.

[pst]

I don't expect to find cards that are novel even due to slight differences when I read fan cards; but hey, let's try an experiment, I'll look at some cards. And I looked at some. I didn't pick and choose; they were the first four in the first fan expansion on BGG. Time does not permit analyzing every fan card.

Yes, time certainly doesn't permit analyzing every fan card, so if done at all (which certainly isn't obvious to do!), your time is best spent looking at something that is already seen to be among the best by many people. If looking at some random cards was a waste of time that is no surprise.

[Donald X.]

Yes, time certainly doesn't permit analyzing every fan card, so if done at all (which certainly isn't obvious to do!), your time is best spent looking at something that is already seen to be among the best by many people. If looking at some random cards was a waste of time that is no surprise.

It is no surprise, correct, hooray. The point to the analysis was to provide an example, that was why I did it in that post, to demonstrate that my expectation was borne out by reality.

I don't want to look at the cream of the crop either though, that will just make me not make those cards. I'm not going to say, "wow these are so good I should just sign this guy up." I would want to preserve a certain pretense of quality, and preserve a certain degree of control, and so would have to endlessly playtest those cards. As long as I am doing that it would be more fun to make them myself. The person on the planet most likely to get me to co-author an expansion offered to make an expansion, and I explained to him about how spin-offs were better (I don't know if we will ever co-author a spin-off, it's on the table anyway).

The problem with making new expansions isn't difficulty coming up with cards. It's increasing complexity, diminishing returns on variety, unpopularity of linear mechanics that would work fine in spin-offs, having better projects. See http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=73.0. It all still applies if someone else produces the ideas.

The original question was, did I look at fan cards. My answer was, I don't because 1) I don't want people to think I'm stealing their ideas, and 2) I don't expect to find cool stuff. I demonstrated #2 in that post back when. If you find an amazing fan expansion, we are back to #1.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why does Farmland gain you a card costing exactly $2 more and not up to $2 more?

[eHalcyon]

Why does Farmland gain you a card costing exactly $2 more and not up to $2 more?

From the Secret History of Hinterlands:

Farmland: Another very old card, from before I split Seaside and Hinterlands. Originally it triggered on gaining it. This can cause some confusing chaining - buy Farmland, trash a card costing $4, gain a Farmland, trash another card costing $4, gain a Farmland. I might have left it as when-gain anyway, just to have everything be when-gain (possibly also limiting what you could gain to non-Farmland), but Noble Brigand had to be when-buy, so there wasn't a sufficient benefit to having this be when-gain. So the less confusing when-buy prevailed.

Also note that an on-gain Farmland could immediately drain the Farmland pile in combination with Fortress.