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LastFootnote

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #400 on: December 31, 2012, 03:47:01 pm »
0

If the "no-one possibly needs a placeholder card for Copper" technology had been around earlier, there would be 1-2 more cards, and Dark Ages might have had a few more or less depending on what happened with the cards that eat up the extra space.

Man, I really wish future copies of the base set had Dungeon and future copies of Intrigue had another new card to take up that space. Then maybe the BGG store could sell them as promos for those of us who already own those sets.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 03:48:24 pm by LastFootnote »
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werothegreat

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #401 on: December 31, 2012, 04:09:38 pm »
+1

If the "no-one possibly needs a placeholder card for Copper" technology had been around earlier, there would be 1-2 more cards, and Dark Ages might have had a few more or less depending on what happened with the cards that eat up the extra space.

Man, I really wish future copies of the base set had Dungeon and future copies of Intrigue had another new card to take up that space. Then maybe the BGG store could sell them as promos for those of us who already own those sets.

What was Dungeon?
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #402 on: December 31, 2012, 04:19:11 pm »
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If the "no-one possibly needs a placeholder card for Copper" technology had been around earlier, there would be 1-2 more cards, and Dark Ages might have had a few more or less depending on what happened with the cards that eat up the extra space.

Man, I really wish future copies of the base set had Dungeon and future copies of Intrigue had another new card to take up that space. Then maybe the BGG store could sell them as promos for those of us who already own those sets.

What was Dungeon?

Dungeon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Discard a card. +3 Cards.

It's not that Dominion as a whole really needs Dungeon, but the base set really does. There's a big Dungeon-shaped hole in it. Without Dungeon, the only viable way to fight Witch is with Chapel. Remodel is a terrible Curse trasher. Moneylender and Mine can't trash Curses. I think new players might hate Witch less if Dungeon were available.
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werothegreat

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #403 on: December 31, 2012, 04:28:38 pm »
+1

If the "no-one possibly needs a placeholder card for Copper" technology had been around earlier, there would be 1-2 more cards, and Dark Ages might have had a few more or less depending on what happened with the cards that eat up the extra space.

Man, I really wish future copies of the base set had Dungeon and future copies of Intrigue had another new card to take up that space. Then maybe the BGG store could sell them as promos for those of us who already own those sets.

What was Dungeon?

Dungeon
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Discard a card. +3 Cards.

It's not that Dominion as a whole really needs Dungeon, but the base set really does. There's a big Dungeon-shaped hole in it. Without Dungeon, the only viable way to fight Witch is with Chapel. Remodel is a terrible Curse trasher. Moneylender and Mine can't trash Curses. I think new players might hate Witch less if Dungeon were available.

Except it's trodding directly on Smithy's territory.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #404 on: December 31, 2012, 04:39:19 pm »
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Except it's trodding directly on Smithy's territory.

Not at all. Smithy's primary function is to increase your handsize. Under most circumstances, Dungeon maintains your handsize.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #405 on: December 31, 2012, 05:48:53 pm »
+1

It's much more similar to masquerade than smithy. Actually, it's really, really similar to masq.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #406 on: December 31, 2012, 06:18:57 pm »
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It's much more similar to masquerade than smithy. Actually, it's really, really similar to masq.

That is definitely true.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #407 on: January 01, 2013, 10:28:37 pm »
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Why was Scout priced at $4?  It doesn't seem like it would be too much better at a lower price, and it might be a bit better priced then anyway.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #408 on: January 02, 2013, 02:09:40 am »
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Why was Scout priced at $4?  It doesn't seem like it would be too much better at a lower price, and it might be a bit better priced then anyway.
It's somewhat random. It was $4 originally and neither caused problems nor went unplayed. Card balance is better from Seaside on, especially in terms of having fewer duds.

Scout dates back to when it turned out that Intrigue was going to be 25 cards rather than 20 cards. I made a few cards and moved a few cards. Scout was a new one. I added it to have something else that interacted with the two-type victory cards. People would sometimes buy it for those combos or the Wishing Well one, and other times would buy it even though there was no good reason. Intrigue expanded in August; it was finalized in October. So there wasn't much time for people to get sick of Scout.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #409 on: January 02, 2013, 05:55:16 am »
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You say it should be fun to lose. Do I need to say "torturer"?

I still don't get why people hate Torturer so much. I hear all this talk about being "Torturer-pinned". How does this happen?

As Torturer draws 3 cards as opposed Witch's 2 cards, it's easier to chain multiple Torturers than multiple Witches.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #410 on: January 02, 2013, 08:51:27 am »
+2

I wanted to register a vote 100% behind Donald on this one.  I can't stand people that try to attack him for being supposedly 'egotistical' and dismissing inferior games.  The truth is that he created a massively successful game (s?) and deserves to take credit for all the ambition, hard work, talent, and determination that that entails.  Society has far too much political correctness, equal outcomes are good, don't ever say anything bad or think you're better than anyone else nonsense.  Let the winners take credit for having done something special and if you don't like it go out and do something special yourself.  That would make you a much better person than whining about how someone else is proud of their accomplishments.

Donald - stay strong brother!

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Well, the way he referred to Dominion-inspired games certainly made the respect I had for him take a big notch.
By Dominion-inspired games, do you mean Dominion clones, rather than say the actual Dominion-inspired games, a few of which I specifically cited, saying nothing negative about them at all, even picking a few I'd try? That would make no sense, so you mean the clones, right? Oops that makes no sense either.
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Lashof

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #411 on: January 02, 2013, 11:05:57 am »
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Regarding the discussion of Dominion Clones vs. legitimate new deckbuilding games:

What, in your mind, differentiates between a clone and an interesting new game?  What defines a dominion clone?
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RichardNixon

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #412 on: January 02, 2013, 12:34:12 pm »
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Regarding the discussion of Dominion Clones vs. legitimate new deckbuilding games:

What, in your mind, differentiates between a clone and an interesting new game?  What defines a dominion clone?
He listed a pair of examples in the interview: Friday and A Few Acres of Snow.
Friday is a solo game that you lose by running out of hit points. Snow is a war game with a board/map. They both borrow Dominion's deckbuilding mechanic, but they play their own game using deckbuilding, as opposed to 'buy currency and actions, then buy victory cards slay monster cards, then count points,' which is just a retheme of Dominion.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #413 on: January 02, 2013, 12:43:45 pm »
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Here's an interesting take on this: How do you view the game "Copycat" or as it is originally known in German: "Fremde Federn" by Friday designer Friedemann Friese?

This game is a tribute to the best games on BGG, Dominion among them. It's even published by the same company that has Dominion: Rio Grande Games.

In it you start with 7 money cards and 3 victory point cards, I mean, he doesn't even try to hide the fact that he's copying Dominion here. But as the game is like a satirical comment on other games, I wonder if this is a big deal. Still, it's the same designer that made Friday...
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #414 on: January 02, 2013, 11:12:29 pm »
+1

My two cents on the ego thing: I also have the impression of him giving egotistical answers, and I think this is primarily because through the interview there is almost none (sorry, but I do not have the time or energy to go read it all over again to check the fact) recognition to good things others do. On the flip side, the fact that there is a lot of mention of good things he did well, I here agree that is a direct consequence of him being the interviewed, so I do not find that annoying at all. But it would be good to recognize that other people does good things as well, and I think there is lack of such recognition. For instance, there is mention to Magic being good or innovative a couple of times, and also Richard Garfield is mentioned as a designer he trusts makes good games. However, this are minor comments and, more significantly, there is no mention to Magic nor Garfield as direct contributors to Dominion existence.

tl; dr: I don't think concluding DXV is egotistical from this interview is fair at all, although I, and apparently others as weel, would appreciate if he commented more on people or games or ideas he recognizes as really good, as we all recognize his game as really good.

Onto a more constructive part of the post:

1. Besides the obvious deck-building, do you feel there is something deeper or more detailed Magic contributed to Dominion? In particular, did you at some point considered other properties in Magic and how they would affect dominion (like different resources in costs, things that stay in play a really long time as opposed to instant effects, explicit combat)? I know this has been partially answered before here and there, so it is of course fine if you only go into new details.

2. How do you feel about identical starting hands? Would you consider including it as a suggestion or variant in a rule book? How often do you think a different opening has a too big impact on the outcome (by "too big" I mean "it would be better to avoid if it could be done in a simple manner, like arrange shuffle luck for particular kingdoms with god, nature, chance, or whatever has the "decision").

3. One of the two things that I hate most about Dominion (this sounds harsh, but after reading it, I think this is more a testimony that I love the game) is the fact that the text on the cards is sexist (it refers to individual players as "he"). Did you consider gender neutrality while making the game? Would you (if you happen to call the shots on such a thing) consider a request for gender neutrality for upcoming expansions/games?

[small skippable sidenote: this fact was something me, my girlfriend and a friend of mine all noticed individually, so it IS noticeable, at least to our kind of people]

4. How good were you at playing Dominion during development in comparison with the other playtesters? When playtesting, do you feel that you play to win as hard as possible, or are your decisions based on other things as well (from "I need to test this card, even if I do not

5. If you were to put a clock on Dominion to avoid people thinking forever, would you give a particular limit to the first move (i.e., some time to evaluate the board)? How much time do you think a person should take to play close enough to optimal (i.e., close to what he/she would play if given unbounded time)? Do you have any more general thoughts on how to clock Dominion games in general?
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #415 on: January 03, 2013, 12:09:28 am »
+2

I wanted to register a vote 100% behind Donald on this one.  I can't stand people that try to attack him for being supposedly 'egotistical' and dismissing inferior games.  The truth is that he created a massively successful game (s?) and deserves to take credit for all the ambition, hard work, talent, and determination that that entails.  Society has far too much political correctness, equal outcomes are good, don't ever say anything bad or think you're better than anyone else nonsense.  Let the winners take credit for having done something special and if you don't like it go out and do something special yourself.  That would make you a much better person than whining about how someone else is proud of their accomplishments.

Donald - stay strong brother!
Thanks, you're there for me.

I feel like I feel very sure of myself when it comes to opinions about the world, but that I am not nearly egotistical enough when it comes to game design. It took making Dominion for me to try to get games published (not counting trying to get Wizards to hire me); since RGG took another game at the same time (from 1995), clearly that other game at least could have been published earlier. Then I didn't show any more games to companies until a year after Dominion came out, using the excuse that my games would get looked at more closely and generously once I was the Dominion guy (I am not sure this even did much, but being the Dominion / Kingdom Builder guy seems to have drummed up some interest). It would have been great to have been sufficiently full of myself that I tried to get games published earlier. Dominion could have been a crowning achievement after a decade of games, instead of my first game published.

When you read a novel, odds are the author was a hyper-motivated self-promoter. They wrote a novel - they were hyper-motivated. Novels don't just write themselves. And then, they were sufficiently full of themselves to try to get the novel published, to tell other people, no really, this is good, read my thing. They're a self-promoter. Once in a while there's a posthumous Confederacy of Dunces or The Trial or what have you, but mostly, if someone managed to write a novel and get it published, you are talking about a somewhat constrained subset of humanity. So I mean, if I thought my stuff just sucked you'd never have heard of me. They never interview that guy who would be saying, "well I figured I wasn't good enough and so I gave up." And that movie about writer's block was written by two guys who got around it by switching projects.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #416 on: January 03, 2013, 12:23:22 am »
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Regarding the discussion of Dominion Clones vs. legitimate new deckbuilding games:

What, in your mind, differentiates between a clone and an interesting new game?  What defines a dominion clone?
This seems like a poor direction for future questions. The entire beauty of asking me this rather than someone else is the potential to think positively or negatively about me. Since people bothering to read the interview probably lean towards positive already, I am only losing here.

A Dominion clone copies the entire game and works from there. It is possible to not copy the entire game, as other games have demonstrated. The idea of building a deck during a game doesn't automatically carry with it any of the other choices I made.

Let us use Illuminati: New World Order as an example, since that doesn't involve me. INWO copies Illuminati (by the same guy). It isn't a Magic clone. The only thing it gets from Magic is the CCG premise: players bring their own decks to the table. Well realistically the CCG premise is, that, plus cards are sold in random packs - the random purchase part gets you the incredible money-making scheme (although INWO abandoned that later iirc). But you know. You can copy the CCG idea without copying the way resources work in Magic or the way combat works. Bringing your own deck to the table doesn't automatically carry with it "play one land a turn and other cards cost an amount of mana that lands produce" and so on.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #417 on: January 03, 2013, 12:26:29 am »
+3

Here's an interesting take on this: How do you view the game "Copycat" or as it is originally known in German: "Fremde Federn" by Friday designer Friedemann Friese?
Friedemann asked me for permission.
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Donald X.

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #418 on: January 03, 2013, 01:37:26 am »
+1

But it would be good to recognize that other people does good things as well, and I think there is lack of such recognition. For instance, there is mention to Magic being good or innovative a couple of times, and also Richard Garfield is mentioned as a designer he trusts makes good games. However, this are minor comments and, more significantly, there is no mention to Magic nor Garfield as direct contributors to Dominion existence.
Here is an interview at opinionatedgamers, in which the interviewer asks who taught me the most about game design, and I cite some people: http://opinionatedgamers.com/2012/05/11/the-art-of-design-interviews-to-game-designers-19-donald-x-vaccarino/

Magic was important for me pursuing game design, but it did not directly contribute to Dominion existing otherwise. I did not think "hey could I take deckbuilding out of Magic and make it the whole game." What I actually thought was, "how do I keep the building-up-heroes part of Spirit Warriors II while simplifying it enough for it to be playable." An edited version of that story can be seen here at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1997.0

1. Besides the obvious deck-building, do you feel there is something deeper or more detailed Magic contributed to Dominion? In particular, did you at some point considered other properties in Magic and how they would affect dominion (like different resources in costs, things that stay in play a really long time as opposed to instant effects, explicit combat)? I know this has been partially answered before here and there, so it is of course fine if you only go into new details.
I did not get the deckbuilding from Magic. Not all obvious things are true.

Magic introduced me to interacting rules-on-cards, which Dominion has (as well as most of my other games). Magic didn't come up with that though, it was in turn inspired by Wiz-War and Cosmic Encounter. As a game with tons of cards, Magic had to really deal with making rules-on-cards work on a large scale, which other games had not; this didn't happen overnight, and all of that work is valuable for other games with rules-on-cards, although in this case I was there, I was working on good wordings right when they were, and even offered some to them (I am credited in the Magic rules in the "contributions" section, for commenting on the 6E rules, although most of what I suggested was probably also suggested by in-house people).

I tend to give cards types, on a line at the bottom of the card. This comes from Magic doing that. Again I don't think it originated that.

Spirit Warriors II (as described in the linked article) at one point had something like Smash Up has; you drafted four heroes and then shuffled packets of ~10 cards per hero together to get your own deck. I got that idea from a set of Magic decks I'd built that worked the same way. You make a 30-card packet for each color, plus one for artifacts; they include lands (use Urza lands for the artifact one). So your 6 packets end up making 15 possible decks. You have a theme; an early one I made was graveyard-themed. The RW graveyard deck was pretty cool. As it happens the contribution this had to Dominion was needing to be replaced by something that worked better for building up heroes.

I made Dominion after years of making other games. Dominion took things like "attacks hit everyone else" automatically from those other games. Things which you can trace back to Magic, like card types, only ultimately came from Magic; they directly came from other games of mine, where I'd tried out things and found what I liked.

2. How do you feel about identical starting hands? Would you consider including it as a suggestion or variant in a rule book? How often do you think a different opening has a too big impact on the outcome (by "too big" I mean "it would be better to avoid if it could be done in a simple manner, like arrange shuffle luck for particular kingdoms with god, nature, chance, or whatever has the "decision").
No interest. The opening hands vary intentionally. I have never felt unhappy with how that turned out. Play whatever variants you want; I shuffle my starting ten.

3. One of the two things that I hate most about Dominion (this sounds harsh, but after reading it, I think this is more a testimony that I love the game) is the fact that the text on the cards is sexist (it refers to individual players as "he"). Did you consider gender neutrality while making the game? Would you (if you happen to call the shots on such a thing) consider a request for gender neutrality for upcoming expansions/games?
The prototype said "they." RGG which is to say Jay switched to "he" (and also expanded most contractions).

I think "he or she" is awful. I think "she" is also awful. "They" is where it's at and has been in use for centuries. Evo is an example of a game that uses it.

I would not include this in contracts; it is hard enough getting games published. If I self-published (not likely) I would use "they."

4. How good were you at playing Dominion during development in comparison with the other playtesters? When playtesting, do you feel that you play to win as hard as possible, or are your decisions based on other things as well (from "I need to test this card, even if I do not
In playtesting my focus is generally just on winning, although sometimes it's on doing something wacky to try it out. Some games the focus is "get this particular card playtested." When a card seems like it might be trouble but might not be, it may end up that I am saying, "okay this game mcp and vinay have to buy it and me and locus can't." Some players are bad at being forced to buy a card and they tend to get shifted into the can't-buy role. But you know, if everyone buys a card, someone who bought it will win, and there won't be any real data there on how the card measures up. Unless it's always, "whoever gets the most copies of it wins," which I guess has come up. Anyway you can just decide, I am not buying the card they think is broken this game, but you will get (different) data faster if two buy it and two don't.

I won my share, I was no slouch. There were weaker playtesters, but among the better playtesters, I'm not sure I see a clear winner.

For Kingdom Builder, I think I am 2nd best after playtester Mark Levine. It's close though.

5. If you were to put a clock on Dominion to avoid people thinking forever, would you give a particular limit to the first move (i.e., some time to evaluate the board)? How much time do you think a person should take to play close enough to optimal (i.e., close to what he/she would play if given unbounded time)? Do you have any more general thoughts on how to clock Dominion games in general?
Well for a computer version it's straightforward to count down the time for whoever currently gets to make a decision - usually the person taking the turn, but sometimes another player who is deciding what to discard or something. You could resolve Militia in turn order as the rules technically say to do. Anyway then you don't need to do anything special for turn one; you've got X minutes for the whole game, spend 'em how you want.

I don't know how much time you should spend thinking about turn one or whatever later situation. The hardest decisions tend to matter the least and knowing that is helpful. There may be a lot to think about on turn one or not much. You don't necessarily need to figure out your whole strategy; some games you are clearly opening Silver/Silver or something and can work out the rest while shuffling. I generally do stare at the cards on turn one.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #419 on: January 03, 2013, 09:25:50 am »
0

Why are you not depicted in a Dominion card art? Are you going to get depicted in a Guilds card? If you could redo the art of the existing expansions, in which card would you like to be? (cue Harem joke)
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #420 on: January 03, 2013, 09:29:59 am »
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Well, imagine that it would be the best card ever, it would be pretty arrogant. And if it were the worst card ever too, it would be a good laugh. And if it were a mediocre card, it would just be... mediocre.
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #421 on: January 03, 2013, 10:40:46 am »
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3. One of the two things that I hate most about Dominion (this sounds harsh, but after reading it, I think this is more a testimony that I love the game) is the fact that the text on the cards is sexist (it refers to individual players as "he"). Did you consider gender neutrality while making the game? Would you (if you happen to call the shots on such a thing) consider a request for gender neutrality for upcoming expansions/games?
The prototype said "they." RGG which is to say Jay switched to "he" (and also expanded most contractions).

I think "he or she" is awful. I think "she" is also awful. "They" is where it's at and has been in use for centuries. Evo is an example of a game that uses it.

I would not include this in contracts; it is hard enough getting games published. If I self-published (not likely) I would use "they."

Donald's probably right that singular they is where the future's at. But, you know what's so amusing about these claims of sexism? Gender-neutral "he" was introduced by a feminist. e.g. see this NYT article.

Also of note from the article: "It’s a shame that grammarians ever took umbrage at the singular they. After all, they gave you a slide. It began life as a plural object pronoun and evolved into the whole enchilada: subject and object, singular and plural."

(Side thought: I wonder why "one" hasn't caught on? I would think since "one" is already a gender neutral pronoun, its use as a personal pronoun in informal contexts would be an easier adaption than using "they" as singular, but I guess not).
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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #422 on: January 03, 2013, 11:03:24 am »
+1

Donald's probably right that singular they is where the future's at. But, you know what's so amusing about these claims of sexism? Gender-neutral "he" was introduced by a feminist. e.g. see this NYT article.

Also of note from the article: "It’s a shame that grammarians ever took umbrage at the singular they. After all, they gave you a slide. It began life as a plural object pronoun and evolved into the whole enchilada: subject and object, singular and plural."

Its not the technicaly correct what matters in this case, but the impact on society's view. I think if they or one shock someone because of its technically improper use, that's not a bad thing, and its probably a good thing: people ought to think someone did their job to avoid following the usual male-oriented language, and that lead some people as to think why they would do that and that eventually reinforces the important debate over sexism, which of course exceeds language issues by far.

As for the they vs one vs other alternatives, I don't know which alternative is better, for the time being, any gender-neutral or non-sexist way is fine with me.

In any case, this debate, like all ideology ones, may quickly divert from the thread, and I know that can be really annoying, especially in a successful thread, so I don't want to get too into this, unless it entails cool questions for Donald, which does not seem to be happening.
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Ozle

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #423 on: January 03, 2013, 11:17:06 am »
+1

"It"

Problem solved
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soulnet

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Re: Interview with Donald X.
« Reply #424 on: January 03, 2013, 11:42:05 am »
+3

Are you proposing using It as a neutral pronoun or sending an evil clown to hunt us down so we stop nagging about this?
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