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[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure I really get his point.  I haven't played Kingbuilder, but reading

When I replay a game, I don't want a new game.  I don't want a whole new problem to solve.  I want strategic fine-tuning.  I want to be able to make semi-consistent valuations of actions and resources.  I want to feel that there's a very good chance that something I learn this game can directly teach me something for next game. 

through the filter of someone that plays Dominion... isn't this precisely what Dominion does?  I mean, yes, a new board could be an "entirely new game", but a lot of the fundamentals are the same, especially if two boards lend themselves to a similar strategy (like engine or slog).  I don't think it's ever the case that one Dominion board has nothing to teach you about the next one.  If so, you're probably not playing correctly.

Edit: Also, you're allowed to control the replayability parameters.. you can select certain cards to keep, only take from certain steps, and you can keep playing the same board and fine-tune a strategy.

[Deadlock39]

I don't think there will be many people around here that agree with the article at all.  He basically makes the argument that it isn't possible to apply knowledge gained in one play of the game to the next. This forum is a counter to that argument.

I'd say Kingdom Builder is a simpler game in general, but having gotten it recently and played 10-20 games, and there are definitely elements of "strategic fine tuning" that I have learned along the way.

He says that Donald's games are the worst of both worlds, but I could easily argue the opposite.  The replayability extends the life of the game for those who are always looking for something new, and the variety expands the depth of strategy that you have to learn, for players who like the "strategic fine tuning".

[Awaclus]

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

>Of course, this begs the question

If you know and admit that your argument begs the question, why even make it?

[Voltaire]

It looks like that guy simply has different tastes, and is making the mistake of thinking his tastes are better.

[Witherweaver]

It looks like that guy simply has different tastes, and is making the mistake of thinking his tastes are better.

Well the thing is, I'm not quite sure why a game like Dominion isn't in line with his tastes as he describes them.

[Seprix]

[Asper]

I do see why playing Dominion with a different kingdom might make you feel like you are playing a vastly different game, especially when you're new to it. Often one or two cards (especially strong ones) absolutely change how the board plays.

I do not see why he acts as if "let's play that kingdom from yesterday again" was inherently impossible.

[LastFootnote]

I think I can provide some context here. I know Paul Schulzetenberg. I did not know he had a blog. He lived in my area until recently and was the founder of the gaming group I attend on a weely-ish basis. If he played all three of those games in one night, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I was there. There's a very good chance that it was at my house. (EDIT: Just checked my email archive; yep, I hosted that evening.)

Paul Schulzetenberg is the Cult of the New. Dude has shelves of games and he's constantly buying, selling, and trading them. It is my perception that the Cult of the New is as much about buying games as it is about playing them. Donald X's games never seem to catch on with Cultists of the New, and well this blog post is more of the same as far as that goes. It's interesting/insulting that he sees Donald's games as the "absurdist endpoint" of the Cult of the New; in my opinion they're the antithesis of it. They're games that are meant to be replayed over and over, rather than played 1 to 3 times and then sold or traded away.

Anyway, Paul's a pretty reasonable guy in my experience. His claim that what you learn in one play of e.g. Dominion doesn't carry over to the next is obviously ridiculous and I wonder whether he really believes it himself. Glancing over some of the other posts on his blog, I'm guessing he's writing to entertain, so probably there's some hyperbole. And maybe he was just disappointed that we played a bunch of Donald X. games that night when he wanted to play something else (we do not play exclusively Donald X games every time I host this group, in case you were wondering). He's visiting the area and there's a good chance I'll see him this week. I guess I won't be inviting him to play Dominion.

EDIT: By the way, Seprix, how did you come across this?

[ChocophileBenj]

Paul Schulzetenberg is the Cult of the New.

I hope he doesn't sell ruins...

[Seprix]

EDIT: By the way, Seprix, how did you come across this?

I was in your group, and I stalk your friends

I was interested in Donald's alleged plays. So I did a google search of 'Donald Vaccarino Play'. Well, I found it on the top page. Who wouldn't click on an article calling Donald Vaccarino a cultist? Because Cults are cool. And hey, maybe I could trash Donald for +3 Cards or something. So I clicked it. The fact that you know this guy is pure coincidence, though I find it odd that I live where you live where he also lived. Kind of creepy.

[jsh357]

Some people don't like replaying games much, and that's all there is to it.  One of my best pals thinks I'm nuts because I like replaying games, and he won't even touch games he loved that he's finished, even ones with a ton of replayability.

I don't understand these people but I've come to accept they exist and there aren't all evil.  I don't care much for the purpose/conclusion of that article, though.  He's taking a really pretentious tone by suggesting that people who like DXV's games are missing some perceived universal truth in his head.  In my mind, having to buy new things all the time instead of using what you already own means you're a slave to consumer culture, but I will readily accept that's just in my mind.

[LastFootnote]

Some people don't like replaying games much, and that's all there is to it.  One of my best pals thinks I'm nuts because I like replaying games, and he won't even touch games he loved that he's finished, even ones with a ton of replayability.

I don't understand these people but I've come to accept they exist and there aren't all evil.  I don't care much for the purpose/conclusion of that article, though.  He's taking a really pretentious tone by suggesting that people who like DXV's games are missing some perceived universal truth in his head.  In my mind, having to buy new things all the time instead of using what you already own means you're a slave to consumer culture, but I will readily accept that's just in my mind.

You can tell from the article that Paul is really into playing new games. When getting a new game, he would read the instructions and then explain the rules to us (sometimes he'd forget stuff). It's weird to me that his tone seems to indicate that he does not consider himself part of the cult of the new.

The real reason is, for all that we gamers trumpet replayability, we crave the novelty of a new game more than we do replaying our favorites.  Breaking the shrink on a new game is exciting, and taking a game through its traces for the first time even more so.  There's never more possibility in a game than when you first buy it.  You can explain that away as Western consumer instinct at work, but it's also more fundamental than that.  A new game represents potential in a way that an old game, even an old favorite, never will.

Obviously "we gamers" is not as universal as he indicates, but what Paul loves best about gaming is learning and playing completely new games.

I'm the opposite. Learning a new game is a chore, and the game itself better be worth the time it takes to explain it. I remember a night several months ago where we split into two groups. I can't remember what my group was playing (I think Kingdom Builder), but after we were finished with our first game, the other group was still going over the rules. If memory serves, it took Ben 45 minutes to explain the rules for a game they'd probably play once. To me that's comical. That's a big part of why I love Donald's games; they take 5 or 10 minutes to explain, and then I get endless hours of value from them.

[enfynet]

I'm just here for the +1.

[jamfamsam]

I'm the guy in my gaming circles that everyone else expects to read the rules and explain them. While I typically don't mind, it does become a real chore at times. Perhaps this Paul just likes being that guy. Good for him. I would say generally that most people don't want to be that guy and don't enjoy grinding through the rules of a new game. I find the replayability of Dominion and Kingdom Builder very refreshing.

If he can't learn anything to carry over from one game to the next of either Dominion or Kingdom Builder, then he isn't really trying very hard (to learn something to carryover to the next game). It sounds to me like he is too busy looking forward to the next new game.

[qmech]

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

>Of course, this begs the question

If you know and admit that your argument begs the question, why even make it?

That's a gutsy move in the home of our resident Descriptivist.

[eHalcyon]

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

>Of course, this begs the question

If you know and admit that your argument begs the question, why even make it?

That's a gutsy move in the home of our resident Descriptivist.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3761

[liopoil]

Hmm, I've only played Kingdom Builder about twice. It took a long time to explain the first time. Should I play it more? (I don't own it though, so...)

[Donald X.]

Also i'm curious how the card art would look had Donald done it himself. Maybe Harem would be more popular.

You mentioned that you wrote 3.8 screenplays before. Is there something that you would be willing, legally capable and comfortable to share with us?

My Harem had no art. You can see it in the outtakes article. I did have an earlier card called Harem that had art; it did not have nudity.

I'm not prevented from posting bits from these screenplays. The main issue for me is that I have been taught in the past that when you gather a group of people by some particular criteria - say, liking Dominion - they won't just fit some other particular criteria for you - say, liking my screenplays.

One of the screenplays was an Airplane!-style comedy. The Hinterlands blurb comes straight from that. "It's a big city out there, and we're little people..."

[Donald X.]

Here's a question Donald.

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

Have you seen this? Apparently, making every game unique and different with the same rules with each play through makes you an evil cultist.

I've seen it; I probably saw it in oh May of 2013.

There are always going to be people eager to pat themselves on the back for not liking awesome things, and so much for that? Not much of a question there really Seprix.

[liopoil]

There are always going to be people eager to pat themselves on the back for not liking awesome things

That is a great way of putting it. Always have to be more hip than the rest!

[Seprix]

Here's a question Donald.

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

Have you seen this? Apparently, making every game unique and different with the same rules with each play through makes you an evil cultist.

I've seen it; I probably saw it in oh May of 2013.

There are always going to be people eager to pat themselves on the back for not liking awesome things, and so much for that? Not much of a question there really Seprix.

So we pat ourselves on the back for liking what people pat themselves on the back for what they don't like, who in turn pat their own backs because we pat our own backs to it in the first place?

[Witherweaver]

Also i'm curious how the card art would look had Donald done it himself. Maybe Harem would be more popular.

You mentioned that you wrote 3.8 screenplays before. Is there something that you would be willing, legally capable and comfortable to share with us?

My Harem had no art. You can see it in the outtakes article. I did have an earlier card called Harem that had art; it did not have nudity.

I'm not prevented from posting bits from these screenplays. The main issue for me is that I have been taught in the past that when you gather a group of people by some particular criteria - say, liking Dominion - they won't just fit some other particular criteria for you - say, liking my screenplays.

One of the screenplays was an Airplane!-style comedy. The Hinterlands blurb comes straight from that. "It's a big city out there, and we're little people..."

You had me at "Airplane!-style comedy".

[Deadlock39]

Hmm, I've only played Kingdom Builder about twice. It took a long time to explain the first time. Should I play it more? (I don't own it though, so...)

I have played a lot of 2p games, one with 3 and one with 5, and like it quite a bit. It feels less strategic than Dominion, but maybe not less than the Dominion Base Set. I'd give it a pretty strong recommendation.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've heard good things about Kingdom Builder, but all I truly know about is that it has an almost comically terse back-of-the-box blurb. It's one step above "this is a board game."

[Dsell]

I played Kingdom Builder quite a few times a couple years ago. This article reminded me how much I loved it, so I'm gonna pick it up for myself now. I, uh, guess my visit gave him ad revenue?