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Author Topic: Tactics  (Read 17845 times)

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dondon151

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2012, 03:36:09 pm »
+3

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2012, 03:46:22 pm »
+3

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

That explains everything. He is like the Chuck Norris of Dominion players.
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-Stef-

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2012, 03:59:43 pm »
+1

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

  • Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.


I'm confused by this... had you played the wishing well last, you still would have drawn that non-copper... it would have been the card that Wishing Well automatically drew. What advantage was there is playing Wishing Well second-to-last instead of last? The total number of cards drawn, and which cards were drawn, is the same either way (if Wishing Well misses). But playing Wishing Well last (not counting re-shuffle situations) leads to slightly better odds of drawing 2 cards with it.

Suppose I have a whole bunch of coppers left in my deck and a single bridge that would really spice up this turn. I have a wishing well and a village in hand.

I could play the wishing will and wish for a copper. Then I play the village. Now I actually get the bridge if it's the first, second or third card.

I could also play the village first, followed by the wishing well. Still can get the bridge if its in the top 3, but now I have to wish for it, significantly reducing the chances of a wishing well hit.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 06:52:36 pm »
0

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

  • Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.


I'm confused by this... had you played the wishing well last, you still would have drawn that non-copper... it would have been the card that Wishing Well automatically drew. What advantage was there is playing Wishing Well second-to-last instead of last? The total number of cards drawn, and which cards were drawn, is the same either way (if Wishing Well misses). But playing Wishing Well last (not counting re-shuffle situations) leads to slightly better odds of drawing 2 cards with it.

Suppose I have a whole bunch of coppers left in my deck and a single bridge that would really spice up this turn. I have a wishing well and a village in hand.

I could play the wishing will and wish for a copper. Then I play the village. Now I actually get the bridge if it's the first, second or third card.

I could also play the village first, followed by the wishing well. Still can get the bridge if its in the top 3, but now I have to wish for it, significantly reducing the chances of a wishing well hit.

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2012, 08:04:25 pm »
+2

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

-Stef- once managed to get a Curse into my turn 2 hand!

... opening IGG

... in a 4 player game where the two next players opened Noble Brigand.

... OK, I've never played against -Stef-
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Davio

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 03:23:25 am »
0

I too, am a big fan of Wishing Well.

I've been known to occasionally wish for a card that wasn't in my deck. Alas, Iso doesn't provide a textbox where you can jot down "Ace of Spades" or something. >:(

But I don't always wish for the most frequent card, it depends on a lot of things. Suppose that wishing the next card correctly leaves 4 cards on top of your deck, all good ones (and no cantrips/drawers). Now all those cards will miss the reshuffle, so in those cases I sometimes wish for a non-existing card.

I guess I tend to wish for cards that both have a decent hit chance and make the most sense. If you already have $6 and the Curses are 4-5 in your favor, you could wish for a Witch with 10% hit chance or a Coppr with 50% chance of guessing right.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 03:31:17 am »
0

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.
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Davio

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 04:44:23 am »
0

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.
Well, I've met him and it's surprisingly... not Stef, but close.
Steven or something if I recall correctly. Could be Stef, though.
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-Stef-

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2012, 08:28:02 am »
+1

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.


Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.
Well, I've met him and it's surprisingly... not Stef, but close.
Steven or something if I recall correctly. Could be Stef, though.

It's just Stef. We've met too, and I'm quite certain ;)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2012, 09:45:16 am »
0

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.



Did you really mean case #2? If Bridge is 4th or later, then it doesn't matter because you can't get the bridge no matter what order you play the cards in. Either way you end up with 3 Copper (assuming you Wish for Copper).

And it doesn't matter that not all cases are equally likely... he wasn't talking about what the total odds of ending up with the Bridge are; he was just talking about whether you want to play Village or WW first, in each of the possible situations.

Either way, you are still correct with your original reply to me... when Bridge is in the third spot down, then playing Wishing Well first will get it for you while playing Village first won't (assuming you wish for Copper every time).
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RD

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2012, 10:10:45 am »
+1

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.



Did you really mean case #2? If Bridge is 4th or later, then it doesn't matter because you can't get the bridge no matter what order you play the cards in. Either way you end up with 3 Copper (assuming you Wish for Copper).
But the premise of this puzzle is that you really want your Bridge this turn. So you would not wish for Copper if you played the WW last, you would wish for Bridge. And then in case 2 you would only get 2 Copper.

The point of Stef's strategy is that it still maximizes the odds of getting your Bridge, which is the main priority; but it also maximizes the amount of Copper you can get without compromising your Bridge chances.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:17:16 am by RD »
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cherdano

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2012, 12:47:11 pm »
+3

It's a really simple, but I enjoy it every time it comes up:

I am ahead by 2-4 points, two provinces left, opponents plays a Counterband, I have $8 in my hand. Rather than reflexively disallowing provinces, it's usually right to disallow duchies. Whereas with $7 in my hand, it's better to disallow provinces.

Although maybe it's actually not so simple: if my opponents knows I knows this tactic, shouldn't I just bluff and disallow duchies even with $7 in hand?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2012, 02:45:00 pm »
0

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

Not sure it's any more of an edge case than the case where your play benefits over the standard play of playing the Wishing Well last and wishing for the most probable card (rather than the most desired card). That is only worse than your strategy in case 3 when number of Coppers in your deck is at least 4. And it's better in case 4 and equal in all other cases. So we're already dealing in edge cases...

To be more clear, there are 3 candidate ways to play this:
1. Village, then Wishing Well, wishing for Copper
2. Wishing Well, wishing for Copper, then Village.
3. Village, then Wishing Well, wishing for Bridge

Method (1) maximizes the expected number of cards drawn.
Method (2) maximizes the probability of finding the Bridge, and then maximizes the expected number of cards drawn among methods that achieve this probability for N>=4.
Method (3) maximizes the probability of find the Bridge, and then maximizes the expected number of cards drawn conditioned on successfully finding the Bridge.

And things become more complicated if your draw pile composition is anything other than 1 Bridge N Coppers. What if there are 2 Bridges? What if there is also an Estate? What if there is also a Highway (or some other useful card)? This whole discussion is already dealing in edge cases.

As a concrete example, if there are 2 Bridges an 3 Coppers in the draw pile, then playing the Village first and then the Wishing Well gets you a wish success probability of 0.7333 (it's 2/3 most of the time, but 100% when the first 2 cards are both Bridge, which occurs 1/10 of the time), but playing the Wishing Well first gets you a success probability of 0.6 (WLOG you always wish for Copper, which is in the second position 6/10 of the time), and both have an equal chance of finding a Bridge.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2012, 02:52:13 pm »
0


Although maybe it's actually not so simple: if my opponents knows I knows this tactic, shouldn't I just bluff and disallow duchies even with $7 in hand?

No, because the right move for your opponent there is to buy the Province anyway... if he can't buy Duchies, then he can't choose to follow PPR.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2012, 05:57:29 pm »
+1

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.
All cases I am about to post assume triggering a reshuffle is irrelevant and you would rather draw cards than not. This isn't always the case of course.
With exactly 1 or 3 cards left in your deck, you definitively want to play village first. With 2, you certainly want to play WW first. With more than that you start having to weigh, how important is the bridge now vs later, and how much does getting another copper now vs later vs not at all do for me? But I daresay your case is more of an edge case than the other, because if getting the bridge now is so incredibly important, you probably need the +buy, and the copper, without a +buy, not so much. The in general the copper is worth more in a hand with bridge than one without it.
To say nothing of the fact that your deck will almost certainly be more complicated than 1 bridge and X copper, where X>2, in which case playing the village first gives more information and is better.

Wait, why am I giving Stef advice?

WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2012, 12:25:35 pm »
+4

The most basic tactical shot is to always be watchful for a chance to end the game with a win; take for instance the end of this game where I throne a baron, DON'T discard an estate though I could have, to gain the last 2 estates and have the 3 buys to buy out the last 3 curses, netting a 2 point victory.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2012, 05:48:04 pm »
+4

Some more stuff, from a couple of recent games:
Here I pause my engine and trash a couple of components, going remake happy to secure a 3 pile

And here it was really important to not be on auto-pilot with king's court (I have messed this stuff up SO many times) - Kinging Horse Traders BEFORE the last wharf lets me redraw all the discarded cards.

brokoli

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2012, 06:01:44 pm »
+1

Thanks for sharing, love these tricks !
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2012, 10:56:52 pm »
+3

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/21/game-20121221-195149-499d1dfb.html
Navigator.
Here, with the villages, I want to play it BEFORE a cantrip, especially scrying pool, to set up scrying pool plays. If it pops up 1 non-action, I want to make sure that the non-action is the top card before I play the scrying pool, so that I can pitch that with the scrying pool and have the biggest draw possible. I do this right a few times, but screw it up because I'm too much on auto-pilot in my outpost turn after turn 15 (should be worker's village then navigator before the second worker's village).
Just played this, and kicked myself right after, so I knew I needed to put it in here. Well, I was *probably* dead anyway, but this didn't help...

zahlman

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2012, 09:18:54 am »
+1

Yeah actually when I think about you should probably play it last.

Yeah, well, you said it yourself:

2.  In general, play cards that require decisions last  This is a trivial observation, but players mess it up for no reason.

;)

Anyway, the can of worms I'd like to open here is Golem. Say my hand contains Golem and some cantrips; I need to decide whether to play the Golem first (and risk hitting two terminals and not getting to play my cantrips) or the cantrips (and risk drawing actions into hand that are now unavailable to the Golem). Usually this is not too hard of a decision, but... Oh, and yeah, having Scrying Pools in addition to Golems can make this considerably more complicated.

(Although I guess a literal reading of the quoted principle says to play the cantrips first, since Golem requires me to decide an order to play the found actions in? ;) )
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2012, 09:42:52 am »
0

A couple more hypotheticals:

2A: Your hand is Bazaar Courtyard Copper Monument Estate. You play Bazaar to draw an estate, then courtyard into copper copper and bazaar. What should you put back on your deck.

2B: Your hand is Throne Room Scheme Copper Estate Silver, and your opponent Ghost Ships you. What do you put back on your deck?

Answers:

2A.Unless there is some 7-cost you REALLY need RIGHT NOW, you want to put the bazaar back. I suppose there are situations you'd stick the monument back - but only if you don't play the bazaar and buy something costing 4 or less, or nothing at all - really this will almost certainly not come up unless you somehow know you can KC the monument next turn if you put it back, in which case most often you do want the $7 to buy another KC! If you do need a $7, it doesn't matter, except DON'T put the Bazaar back and then do play it.

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

Piemaster

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2012, 07:41:44 am »
0

Another reason I Upgrade Estates over Copper is that (in the case of that first Upgrade anyway) it will often net me a silver that I would have had to buy eventually anyway, leaving that 3 or 4 buy later on to be spent on an engine piece instead.
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blueblimp

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2012, 10:52:38 pm »
0

Don't gain the second-to-last Province if one of your opponents can/is-likely-to win the game by gaining the last Province on his next turn.  I call this my 2nd-to-Last Province Rule, or 2tLPR for short.


=========
In all seriousness, though, the time for Swindling an opponent's Estate into a $2 action or treasure is a LOT sooner than people think.  Not sure if that is strategy or tactics -- but mid-to-late game Swindling is generally poorly played, IMO.
The above is missing an important part of the PPR, which is that you need to be able to pull ahead in points with a cheaper victory card. For example, if you're behind by 8 points, your main hope to win is getting the last two Provinces and on the rest of turns Duchies. If you don't buy the second-last Province, winning will be nearly impossible.
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zahlman

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2012, 11:18:21 pm »
0

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

This isn't quite true. Putting back the Scheme and the Copper would be bad, for example. But yeah, you can either keep TR-Scheme and put back and two of the others, draw them back with TR-Scheme on your turn, spend $3, and topdeck TR-Scheme; or you can just put back TR-Scheme, spend $3, and know that your TR-Scheme is already topdecked.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tactics
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2012, 06:34:03 pm »
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2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

This isn't quite true. Putting back the Scheme and the Copper would be bad, for example. But yeah, you can either keep TR-Scheme and put back and two of the others, draw them back with TR-Scheme on your turn, spend $3, and topdeck TR-Scheme; or you can just put back TR-Scheme, spend $3, and know that your TR-Scheme is already topdecked.
True. I wasn't even thinking about those cases, because it just isn't a thing to split your actions in a case like this. Like there's no reason you'd even think to.


Somebody edge case me. Okay, possession. Somebody give me a non-possession edge case.
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