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Author Topic: Card-specific beginner traps  (Read 18553 times)

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andy

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Card-specific beginner traps
« on: December 04, 2012, 01:47:18 pm »
+10

My first "real" contribution to F.DS. I generally play 3p on Isotropic without restricting the levels of my opponents, and so I play against beginners plenty. (I'm not excellent but I'm decent - level 30 at present writing.) There are many general principles, discussed on this forum and on places like Dominion Strategy, that beginners can follow to improve their play. But I think concrete illustrations may be a more helpful way to understand them, and to that end I thought I'd flag a couple of common traps with reference to specific cards into which I see beginners fall.

Festival as Silver

This is a big one. If your play consists of playing Festival, playing one other action card, and then buying one card, then you have effectively used the Festival as a Silver - paying $5 for something you could have gotten for $3. If you're not using the extra buy or you're not playing two actions on top of the Festival, then you're not getting mileage and you need to ask yourself whether there wasn't a better $5 or even a better $4 you could have bought instead.

This illustrates two principles nicely. One: think about a purpose for your cards rather than buying lazily on some perceived "value." If you're considering Festival you should think about what other action cards will combo nicely, or how you'll work that extra buy. Two: as people know +actions are classically overrated by beginners (over-buying Villages is such a well-known issue that I'm not listing it here). The way I like to pose the question is, imagine an action card that gives you +1 action, +$2. What do you think that's typically worth? If the answer is more than $3 then you might be overrating the actions.

Quarry on "value"

I think beginners sometimes buy Quarry because they think it's just a good card to have around on value, like a Silver or something. They don't appreciate how severely specialized it is towards action-heavy decks. It's miserable when you need to buy other treasures and victory cards, an extra Copper in your deck. And the money you save often ends up as wasted surplus. For example, you might play your Quarry and have $4 total, and let's say the most expensive action cards are $5. So you have $4 to buy a $3 action - but you could have bought it anyway with Silver instead of Quarry (paying $5 for $5)!

If you buy a Quarry, you should have some clearly specific action combos in mind. Obviously Quarry is much improved with extra buys on the board, but even then you need to be thinking about combos, and specifically combos that are realistically affordable on the budgets you'll have in a given hand. If you play a Quarry with an extra buy but you only have $4 total to spend (not uncommon), you can afford to get two $4 actions, or a $5 and a $3. Do you see such pairs that will work well? Are you sure that buying Quarry to get the discount beats traditional money + full-price?

Envoy on "value"

Envoy is effective when you have lots of extra actions, so that your opponents cannot let you keep actions that you draw, or when you're just pursuing big money, so that even though you lose your best treasure you may still pull an extra $3-$5 worth of money into your hand. If you don't have than extra action and your deck is mixed between action and money, then any action you pull is a dead card that your opponent doesn't have to worry about, and you may end up with all of $1 or even $0 to show for your troubles. Like Quarry, I think Envoy is more specialized than beginners think. You need to really consciously minimize the number of dead cards you're going to draw.

Over-pursuing Gold with Hoard

It's easy to look at the Gold-gaining abilities of Hoard and get too excited. I often see players buying an Estate to gain a Gold or a Duchy to gain a Gold. Think about this as buying two cards worth $1.5 and 0.5 (or 1.5) victory points each. As far as money goes, this is worse for your deck than adding 2 Silvers. You of course receive compensation in the form of victory points - but maybe that won't be enough to keep up with the opponent who is building her deck in a more straightforward manner and will start pulling down Provinces (or worse, Colonies) before you.

Somewhat related is overbuying Tunnels in a Tunnel engine. You get really excited about building a Gold-generating machine and then rush out and buy 4 Tunnels near the start of the game. Meanwhile a more prudent opponent only buys 2 Tunnels and builds up a concentration of money more efficiently. Buy enough to get things going but then stop.

Highway for the cantrip and +$1

On most boards, a card that gives you +1 card, +1 action, and +$1 is not worth $5. (For newbies: a "cantrip" is a +1 card +1 action). Consider that Bazaar gives you that and 1 more action, or that Market gives you that and 1 more buy, or that Oasis requires a discard but only costs $3. If you don't have extra buys and you don't have a card that plays off of lowered costs (ex: Ironworks, Workshop) or extra action plays (ex: Conspirator, Peddler), the cantrip and the $1 in cost savings is all that you're getting. Look at the other $5 cards you could be buying before settling on Highway.
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Young Nick

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 01:49:12 pm »
+1

An article like this can't go without mention of City and, to a lesser extent, Treasure Map, among other cards. I also think Talisman would fit in here, too.
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Davio

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 02:01:35 pm »
+3

Pawn always choosing +1 Card / +1 Action

Much too often it's played as a cantrip out of fear that you'll draw an action card dead.
Deck tracking is pretty essential and if you know a lot of money is coming up, why not choose +1 Card / +$1 or +1 Card / +1 Buy?

If you're always choosing +1 Card / +1 Action it's no better than a Great Hall, minus the 1 VP.
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gman314

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 02:10:07 pm »
0

An article like this can't go without mention of City and, to a lesser extent, Treasure Map, among other cards. I also think Talisman would fit in here, too.

Treasure Map definitely needs mention. It took me a while to realize that it was as powerful as it seemed mostly because everyone would buy a pair ASAP. Once we realized that other strategies could beat it, then we stopped buying it every time.
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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 02:49:39 pm »
0

Pawn always choosing +1 Card / +1 Action

Much too often it's played as a cantrip out of fear that you'll draw an action card dead.
Deck tracking is pretty essential and if you know a lot of money is coming up, why not choose +1 Card / +$1 or +1 Card / +1 Buy?

If you're always choosing +1 Card / +1 Action it's no better than a Great Hall, minus the 1 VP.

Not just money coming up... also if you have a lot of dead cards (green/curses/ruins) you should do the same.  Take the +1 card and then something that helps you (buy/coin).
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toaster

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 03:12:33 pm »
+1

Workshop is one that I think many players first over-buy (filling they're decks with terminals, for example), then with some experience under-buy (not noticing when it can accelerate an engine deck), before finding a good balance.

Spy is another one that I think many beginning players buy too often.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 03:13:54 pm by toaster »
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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 03:14:13 pm »
0

Workshop is one that I think many players first over-buy (filling they're decks with terminals, for example), then with some experience under-buy (not noticing when it can accelerate an engine deck), before finding a good balance.

Agreed!  I have only recently started actually considering it in Highway/Bridge situations, too.  Definitely a card that I under-utilize.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 04:48:05 pm »
+3

Workshop is one that I think many players first over-buy (filling they're decks with terminals, for example), then with some experience under-buy (not noticing when it can accelerate an engine deck), before finding a good balance.

Spy is another one that I think many beginning players buy too often.

We definitely overbought Ironworks, just gaining more Ironworks with Ironworks, without a clear purpose for them all. One of the most popular cards in Intrigue for weeks. We played some rubbish games :)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 04:57:07 pm »
0

Envoy on "value"

Envoy is effective when you have lots of extra actions, so that your opponents cannot let you keep actions that you draw, or when you're just pursuing big money, so that even though you lose your best treasure you may still pull an extra $3-$5 worth of money into your hand. If you don't have than extra action and your deck is mixed between action and money, then any action you pull is a dead card that your opponent doesn't have to worry about, and you may end up with all of $1 or even $0 to show for your troubles. Like Quarry, I think Envoy is more specialized than beginners think. You need to really consciously minimize the number of dead cards you're going to draw.

You're probably right that this is particularly the case with Envoy, but I think it's also true in general with terminal draw. You either want very few action cards, or else plenty of spare actions. I tend to try to avoid Big Money strategies, as I don't find them particularly interesting, so I usually won't buy Smithy or Envoy etc if there's no villages.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 05:56:49 pm »
+1

First, thank you for this post—you've brought up some great material, and it's great to see this level of detail around beginner play.

I think your Festival example is an interesting one, because one of the things that makes +Buy so hard to evaluate is that it's situational. You definitely want a +Buy if you hit $7 when there's only one Province left, but the decision to get sources of +Buy into the deck usually happens long before you hit that point. Since Festival is strictly superior to Silver (barring terminal draw situations), I think the really interesting comparison is between Festival and other terminal Silvers at the $3/$4/$5 price point.
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gman314

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 06:03:16 pm »
+1

I think the really interesting comparison is between Festival and other terminal Silvers at the $3/$4/$5 price point.

Agreed. If I hit $5 and was going to be buying Silver anyways, I'll take Festival over Silver unless my game plan is something like Smithy-BM or Envoy-BM. However, in such a deck, I'll generally have something like Militia, Monument, Haggler, Jester, Mountebank or even Fortune Teller or Chancellor which will take a terminal Silver spot.

The other comparison point for Festival is some of the alt-treasures at $5. I will typically take Festival over Contraband, but Venture wins pretty much any day and Royal Seal comes close. Cache is also a good choice at this price range.
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Kahryl

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 07:18:13 pm »
0

I'm very guilty of the Tunnel trap. If I see Tunnel/Warehouse I'm not likely to buy anything but. Even with $6, sometimes!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 11:30:42 pm »
+1

I'm not sure I agree completely with what you're saying about Hoard. Either that or it's just unclear what you're saying. If you have a Hoard in play, I think the right choice is to buy VP cards -- even Estates and Duchies -- most of the time. $1.5/card is just about enough to buy Provinces anyway, and you do want the points. If you really can't stand to have the VP cards in your deck, then the mistake is not the choice to buy the Duchy/Estate while the Hoard is in play, it's the choice you previously made to have bought the Hoard in the first place.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 11:32:43 pm »
+2

It's also good to remember that Gold+Estate isn't always worse than Silver+Silver.  If you have good sifting, I think the Gold is preferable.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 11:39:40 pm »
+1

It's also good to remember that Gold+Estate isn't always worse than Silver+Silver.  If you have good sifting, I think the Gold is preferable.

I strongly agree with this. I recently played a game with Beyond Awesome where he went Mine/Hoard and I went Storeroom/Hoard. Let me tell you, Storeroom/Hoard is pretty awesome.
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andy

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 11:44:02 pm »
+1

Thanks for the feedback all.

An article like this can't go without mention of City and, to a lesser extent, Treasure Map, among other cards. I also think Talisman would fit in here, too.

I hear you on City. I think it's a more severe trap in 2 player than in 3. You've still got 10 cards to drive a pile but now you've got 3 people working at it. And in 2p you can just disregard cities while your opponent bloats with them, but in 3p sometimes both your opponents go after City and all of a sudden it becomes more problematic for you. :P

I think your Festival example is an interesting one, because one of the things that makes +Buy so hard to evaluate is that it's situational. You definitely want a +Buy if you hit $7 when there's only one Province left, but the decision to get sources of +Buy into the deck usually happens long before you hit that point. Since Festival is strictly superior to Silver (barring terminal draw situations), I think the really interesting comparison is between Festival and other terminal Silvers at the $3/$4/$5 price point.

Yeah, agreed - the other terminal Silvers are exactly what to look at as alternative buys. I bring up the Festival-Silver comparison and the comparison of Silver to a hypothetical "+1 action +$2" because I think beginners sometimes see Festival and think "+2 actions, +1 buy, +$2 - lots of good stuff, and I won't ever be screwed with a terminal I can't play!" (For beginners - "terminal" = a card that doesn't give extra actions.) What they don't realize is that too often they're effectively only using the $2.

Spy is another one that I think many beginning players buy too often.

I think this often happens when beginners open 4/3 and they feel like they have to buy a $4 card rather than a Silver, because they don't want to "waste" the surplus.

You're probably right that this is particularly the case with Envoy, but I think it's also true in general with terminal draw. You either want very few action cards, or else plenty of spare actions.

Agreed, also a problem with Smithy, I just think it's worse with Envoy. I think some beginners look at Envoy and think "+4 cards!" when in fact what they should be thinking is "+ the worst 4 cards of my next 5," which is in fact considerably worse than +4 cards - in fact priced at the same level as Smithy which is +3 cards. And every dead card in the hand makes the opponent's option to discard a little better.

To illustrate that last point, let's say the probability of your drawn cards being "useful cards" (not dead on a terminal draw) is p. Smithy is straightforward, gives you +3p useful cards on average. With Envoy your opponent is always going to knock out a useful card if there's one available, and moreover your most useful card. So the possibilities and their probabilities are:


p^5:                +4 "worst useful cards," i.e. the worst 4 of 5 usefuls
5 * p^4 * (1-p):    +3 worst useful cards
10 * p^3 * (1-p)^2: +2 worst useful card
10 * p^2 * (1-p)^3: +1 worst useful card
5 * p * (1-p)^4:    all dead cards
(1-p)^5:            all dead cards


Putting some real numbers in there, let's say p = 0.5. Smithy gives you +1.5 useful cards on average. Envoy gives you +1.53 worst useful cards. I think we'd agree that +0.03 cards on average doesn't outweigh the difference in average quality between useful and worst useful, and so with that kind of deck and no extra actions to help Envoy, Smithy is a better buy. The exact valuation of the worst useful versus useful, as with any financial option (my background :) ), depends on the volatility of your card draw - if they're all the same card there's no difference, but if you've got Platinums and Coppers in there it's a big difference. So it's hard to say at what values of p Envoy beats out Smithy. But you can at least make a little table to get an idea:


p     Smithy usefuls    Envoy worst usefuls
0.3   +0.9              +0.67
0.4   +1.2              +1.08
0.5   +1.5              +1.53
0.6   +1.8              +2.01
0.7   +2.1              +2.50
0.8   +2.4              +3.00
0.9   +2.7              +3.50
1.0   +3.0              +4.00


I'd say you're probably hoping for at least a 70% and maybe more like 80% chance of non-dead terminals before Envoy has an edge. All of which is to say, with more potential dead cards Envoy gets more problematic than Smithy does.
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andy

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 11:46:29 pm »
0

I'm not sure I agree completely with what you're saying about Hoard. Either that or it's just unclear what you're saying. If you have a Hoard in play, I think the right choice is to buy VP cards -- even Estates and Duchies -- most of the time. $1.5/card is just about enough to buy Provinces anyway, and you do want the points. If you really can't stand to have the VP cards in your deck, then the mistake is not the choice to buy the Duchy/Estate while the Hoard is in play, it's the choice you previously made to have bought the Hoard in the first place.

I think that the mistake is the Hoard in the first place - people buy it with the idea in mind that they'll gain Golds in this manner when there is a more efficient way to build your money that beats it in the long run. Sorry if unclear.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 11:57:15 pm »
+1

I agree with the OP with regards to Hoard. People should not autobuy green with Hoard in play. Particularly in the middle parts of the game, it's often much better to take Gold or Hoard (or $5 action) instead of Duchy + Gold. People tend to start greening too early with Hoard.

And just because your deck isn't ready for Duchies and Estates yet doesn't mean you shouldn't have gotten Hoard. Sometimes draws just fall against you and you have less than $8 with your Hoard. That doesn't mean it's time to dip for Duchies, and it doesn't mean buying the Hoard was a mistake.
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PSGarak

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 12:32:03 am »
0

Nobles - I usually consider it a Trap Card.

First Impression: It has everything you need! Draw, and Actions! You can build a whole self-drawing engine using just Nobles! And it has VP to boot!

Reality: Nobles does not have everything you need. The amount of Draw is mediocre, and the Actions are paltry. The engines you can build from only Nobles are terrible, terrible engines. The VP is not that much.

Nobles are expensive, competing for Gold in your deck at $6, but all they give you is the option of being either a $4 card or a sub-$2 card, which makes them incredibly cost-inefficient. Playing 2 Nobles together is the equivalent of playing a single Laboratory, gaining one net card. And that draw isn't useful unless you actually have cards worth drawing. Like Gold. Which cost as much as Nobles, and which you probably didn't buy if you were rushing buying Nobles.

Nobles can be useful, but they are not the linchpin of a deck. They are nice for smoothing out variance in Action+Terminal Draw decks that are built around other cards, but if they are the core of your engine, it will put-put along at a snail's pace. The draw is better when you have cards worth drawing, so pick up a Gold (or three) before your first Nobles. The extra purchasing power will probably result in you tying or winning the Nobles split anyways.
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jaybeez

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 02:10:53 am »
+1

Nobles can be useful, but they are not the linchpin of a deck.
You're right that Nobles can't be the linchpin of a deck, and trying to build an engine out of only Nobles is indeed a trap.

But Nobles are more than "useful."  Nobles fit nicely into almost any engine, and give VP at the same time.  That's why they're so croosh, they allow you to build your engine while increasing your VP total at the same time.  The only other card that allows you to do that is Great Hall, and that's mainly just good with Crossroads, also Ironmonger (yeah also Ironworks, but Ironworks-Great Hall rush is not really an engine strategy).  I think you really need a source of +Actions other than the Nobles, but in that situation it's really good because it can usually be used to give you +Cards, but can also bail you out in a pinch.

Here's another way to look at it: when you're building an engine, a Nobles buy is kind of like buying a Smithy and paying an extra $2 for 2 VP chips.  Which is pretty damn good, think about it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:13:11 am by jaybeez »
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gman314

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 02:13:45 am »
0

Nobles can be useful, but they are not the linchpin of a deck.
Here's another way to look at it: when you're building an engine, a Nobles buy is kind of like buying a Smithy and paying an extra $2 for 2 VP chips.  Which is pretty damn good, think about it.

Assuming that you have some sort of Village on the board. Remember, we're talking about beginner trap cards. Using Nobles as a Village competes with just buying Nobles in terms of bad engine strategies.
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Dsell

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 02:16:09 am »
+1

That's why they're so croosh, they allow you to build your engine while increasing your VP total at the same time.  The only other card that allows you to do that is Great Hall

Goons says hi. :P

But I agree with everything else you said. Nobles is an awesome card in the right circumstances. But noobs don't always know when that is.
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jaybeez

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 02:25:04 am »
0

That's why they're so croosh, they allow you to build your engine while increasing your VP total at the same time.  The only other card that allows you to do that is Great Hall

Goons says hi. :P

But I agree with everything else you said. Nobles is an awesome card in the right circumstances. But noobs don't always know when that is.
Oh right, I meant besides the VP chip cards.
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dondon151

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 02:25:48 am »
+1

You're right that Nobles can't be the linchpin of a deck, and trying to build an engine out of only Nobles is indeed a trap.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/02/game-20121202-015232-4cad11ad.html

I don't know, I've been burned ignoring Nobles way more often than I've benefited from ignoring them. The VP differential, especially in a Province game, makes it hard to ignore them entirely, but picking up just a couple doesn't help your own deck very much either. verikt himself admitted post-game that his big mistake was letting me get 6 Nobles.

(But in a Colony game, engines usually win, so the Nobles are good there as well.)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 02:30:26 am by dondon151 »
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Davio

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Re: Card-specific beginner traps
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 02:33:50 am »
+1

The thing I've noticed about Nobles is that you can't let your opponent get 6 or more of them.
So if he starts dipping into them, just sigh and pick up 3 or 4 yourself.

With 6 or more they tend to turn into labs and that's bad.
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