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Author Topic: Throne Room - Tactician  (Read 14649 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Throne Room - Tactician
« on: September 03, 2011, 12:45:49 am »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is covered in the rule books.

If you TR or KC a Tactician (say you're doing a long chain of them without +Actions), do you have to leave the TR/KC out with the Tactician? What does Isotropic do here?
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biopower

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2011, 01:08:33 am »
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Donald made a different ruling back in the day that was quite difficult to adjudicate, but his latest ruling is that you only keep TR & KC cards that are directly modifying an in-play Duration card.

If you play KC/KC and then drop 3 Wharves, you do clean up the first KC (but leave the 2nd one out).
From here.

You don't get extra cards from KC/TR Tactician though, iirc, because you don't discard any cards the second or third time you play them.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2011, 01:21:27 am »
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Right okay, I guess that's kind of obvious then. The TR's not affecting the Tactician, so it is discarded. I nearly TRed a Tactician in Iso, not for any particular reason, I just had nothing else to TR, but I wasn't sure how it would deal with it, and wanted to be sure I could draw it on the next turn.
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guided

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2011, 08:41:49 am »
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TR/Tactician: TR doesn't stay out. The "if you do" is resolved on the current turn, and since you "don't", the 2nd play is known at play time to have no next turn effect, so TR isn't actually modifying the Tactician as of the cleanup phase.

TR/Outpost: TR does stay out. Outpost's "can't cause you to have more than 2 turns" clause doesn't resolve until the moment it attempts to give you another turn. If it's giving you a 2nd turn in a row, that's fine. If it's giving you a 3rd turn in a row, it fizzles. The card doesn't "know" it will fizzle until that clause actually resolves, so the TR is modifying it and must stay out.

Consider, if some (unlikely) hypothetical effect made it possible for another player to have a turn between your 2nd turn and your 3rd turn, the Outpost would actually give you both extra turns. Whereas the "if you do" clause of Tactician has come and gone as soon as you finish playing it, so nothing could ever cause the 2nd play of Tactician to actually give you its bonus.

There were specific rulings from Donald on BGG about both of these combos. Last I checked, isotropic had a bug where TR would stay out with Tactician. It doesn't matter much.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2011, 10:04:22 am »
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Again, this might already be covered, but if you TR an Outpost, then play Possession, do you get another turn after the next player's possessed turn? Also, TR-Outpost will cause you to draw only 3 cards twice, even if you only get one extra turn, right?
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AJD

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2011, 10:52:33 am »
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I don't see how TR-Outpost could cause you to draw three cards twice; the three-cards instruction on the card is "in this turn's cleanup phase", and that pretty clearly doesn't make you draw three cards in the cleanup phase of any turn other than the one in which you played the Outpost. No?

Also, if Possession shenanigans can allow TR-Outpost to give you a third turn, maybe it shouldn't have been in <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=262.0">my first "what's missing?" puzzle</a>.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 11:05:35 am »
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I don't see how TR-Outpost could cause you to draw three cards twice; the three-cards instruction on the card is "in this turn's cleanup phase", and that pretty clearly doesn't make you draw three cards in the cleanup phase of any turn other than the one in which you played the Outpost. No?

You are right, of course. I think what I was thinking of is if play an Outpost on an Outpost turn, you draw three cards but don't get another turn.
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guided

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2011, 06:08:46 pm »
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No amount of Possession shenanigans can cause Outpost's extra-turn effect to obtain more than once. When simultaneous things happen to 2 different players, they resolve in player order starting with the current player. Ergo, any Outpost turns I might have come strictly before any Possessed turns that might be pending for my lefthand opponent. So the 2nd play of Outpost fizzles before LHO ever takes a Possessed turn.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2011, 08:32:06 am »
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Okay, so by "unlikely", you mean that no current card will allow this, and probably none ever will.
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guided

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2011, 04:19:40 pm »
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Yep, I meant it's unlikely that any official card would ever exist that could cause that to happen.
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fencingmonkey

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 02:02:15 pm »
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As an intellectual exercise, a friend was able to come up with a way to "double Tactician" (apologies if this has been covered before):

Golem>Tactician>Laboratory

This does rely on drawn Tactician + another card (so that you can still discard your hand) but we're clearly looking for edge cases here. And it opens up a whole line of similar effects, e.g. Golem>Tactician>Library (more reliable but it requires a Village before you set it off).

Now, I'm not sure how effective that is as a strategy... Tactician itself tends to be most useful either in the early game or when you've got a lot of Market-type cards that let you get a Buy phase after discarding your hand. But maybe someone clever will see an application.
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guided

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Re: Throne Room - Tactician
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 02:47:11 pm »
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The Golem/Tactician trick is known but not very useful (Golems and Tacticians play astonishingly badly with each other). It is also not really related to Throne Room/Tactician.
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