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Author Topic: Witch Division: Bracket and Results  (Read 92861 times)

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Marin

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #175 on: December 20, 2012, 07:35:05 am »
+4

Yes I admit , I played really badly the game with crossroad and great hall... but I think it was the only one where they was something a bit like a engine possible , all the other game was so boring  and I was even seek of playing . I think that for the last game I checked if some village was here, no village so go BM again... but yes it was a huge mistake!

I would have liked to stop dominion on a win of the tournament! ^^ but I was so far of the win thanks to LordHedgie! :p
This tournament is really great but they are just one thing that I don't really like... Why the tournament is without veto? I think that veto mode make the game much more interesting (you can avoid the card that destroy the game like Gouvernor...) and I really think that I would have been better with veto! ^^

Ok so, like I said, I will stop playing dominion (at least for a while...) so I want to say thank you to every one of this forum, I really enjoyed this year full of dominion! :p
Keep playing! ^^
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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #176 on: December 20, 2012, 07:39:30 am »
0


I am forfeiting my match to ddubois

What happen?

Somebody set up us the bomb.
Main screen turn on ...

It's you!

HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN !!

All your base are belong to us.
You are on the way to destruction.
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lespeutere

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #177 on: December 20, 2012, 07:51:10 am »
+2

Yes I admit , I played really badly the game with crossroad and great hall... but I think it was the only one where they was something a bit like a engine possible , all the other game was so boring  and I was even seek of playing . I think that for the last game I checked if some village was here, no village so go BM again... but yes it was a huge mistake!

I would have liked to stop dominion on a win of the tournament! ^^ but I was so far of the win thanks to LordHedgie! :p
This tournament is really great but they are just one thing that I don't really like... Why the tournament is without veto? I think that veto mode make the game much more interesting (you can avoid the card that destroy the game like Gouvernor...) and I really think that I would have been better with veto! ^^

Ok so, like I said, I will stop playing dominion (at least for a while...) so I want to say thank you to every one of this forum, I really enjoyed this year full of dominion! :p
Keep playing! ^^
Ah, that's a bit sad. It was always a pleasure to play with you, either witnessing one of those nice little engines you built or even being able to come out on top of your little engine. :-) Hope you'll be around sometimes.
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KristianBahle

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #179 on: December 21, 2012, 06:51:53 am »
0

Yes I admit , I played really badly the game with crossroad and great hall... but I think it was the only one where they was something a bit like a engine possible , all the other game was so boring  and I was even seek of playing . I think that for the last game I checked if some village was here, no village so go BM again... but yes it was a huge mistake!

I would have liked to stop dominion on a win of the tournament! ^^ but I was so far of the win thanks to LordHedgie! :p
This tournament is really great but they are just one thing that I don't really like... Why the tournament is without veto? I think that veto mode make the game much more interesting (you can avoid the card that destroy the game like Gouvernor...) and I really think that I would have been better with veto! ^^

Ok so, like I said, I will stop playing dominion (at least for a while...) so I want to say thank you to every one of this forum, I really enjoyed this year full of dominion! :p
Keep playing! ^^

Reviens vite ! :)
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ddubois

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #180 on: December 21, 2012, 01:29:55 pm »
0

This tournament is really great but they are just one thing that I don't really like... Why the tournament is without veto? I think that veto mode make the game much more interesting (you can avoid the card that destroy the game like Gouvernor...) and I really think that I would have been better with veto! ^^
+1
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Lekkit

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #181 on: December 21, 2012, 02:17:12 pm »
+2

Some people have come to a mutual agreement to play without specific cards, I think that's better than veto, since veto tends to make games that wouldn't have Governor, Tournament, Black Market or whatever card you don't like, less interactive. Because a lot of players use veto mode to play with fewer attacks.
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theory

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #182 on: December 21, 2012, 02:23:40 pm »
+3

Heck, if you and your opponent want to play veto, we don't care.  The rule is only if the two of you can't agree on the rules.  If you and your opponent want to play KC-Goons-Masq boards only, we couldn't care less.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #183 on: December 21, 2012, 02:43:06 pm »
+2

I feel that Veto Mode introduces a crucial strategic decision right at the start which can greatly influence the rest of the game.  While that can be fun, it's not part of the default rules of the game Dominion, and so it seems to me that it certainly should not be the default rule for a Dominion tournament.

But then, we're using isotropic's implementation of Black Market, but I feel that this is out of convenience, since it's there.  But whenever possible without great headache, I feel that the tournament rules should lean towards physical Dominion and not towards isotropic.
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mith

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #184 on: December 21, 2012, 02:44:33 pm »
+1

Heck, if you and your opponent want to play veto, we don't care.  The rule is only if the two of you can't agree on the rules.  If you and your opponent want to play KC-Goons-Masq boards only, we couldn't care less.

That would be a fun theme tournament...
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ddubois

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #185 on: December 21, 2012, 04:03:30 pm »
+1

I feel that Veto Mode introduces a crucial strategic decision right at the start which can greatly influence the rest of the game.
The more opportunities there are for me to outplay my opponent, the more accurately the format represents a measure of skill.  The primary purpose of a tournament is to identify and laud the most skillful.

Quote
While that can be fun, it's not part of the default rules of the game Dominion, and so it seems to me that it certainly should not be the default rule for a Dominion tournament.... But whenever possible without great headache, I feel that the tournament rules should lean towards physical Dominion and not towards isotropic.
http://yourcybercourt.info/fallacies/list.html#sec-25
Needless to say, I do not share this view.

Heck, if you and your opponent want to play veto, we don't care.  The rule is only if the two of you can't agree on the rules.  If you and your opponent want to play KC-Goons-Masq boards only, we couldn't care less.
While true, this is entirely besides the point.  If both people want to play non-veto they can do that too.

But with the rules being that in the case of a dispute, non-veto is default and enforced, you allow the less skillful player to "bring down the competition to his level".  You allow him to maximize the chances that a board comes out "dumb", i.e., has one clear dominant strategy that they can implement as well as a more skilled player, and ride the variance wave to victory.

I haven't vetoed attacks just for the sake of vetoing attacks (except Possession, of course) in a long time.  I veto to make the board more interesting and/or make available divergent strategies and/or present a trap card to lead my opponent down a wrong path and/or ensure a 5/2 split doesn't automatically win the game on the first turn.

Speaking of the latter, identical starting hands is the default enforcement, yes?  That was clearly a decision away from "like the cardboard"/dumb luck, and towards more skill.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:06:03 pm by ddubois »
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theory

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #186 on: December 21, 2012, 04:06:04 pm »
+3

See I think Veto Mode is much, much more likely to generate "dumb" boards.  For example, against WW I'd just automatically veto any alt-VP cards (sorry WW for giving away your secret) and do way better than expected.  If you're playing Marin you will just veto KC every single game. 
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jonts26

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #187 on: December 21, 2012, 04:12:13 pm »
+2

See I think Veto Mode is much, much more likely to generate "dumb" boards.  For example, against WW I'd just automatically veto any alt-VP cards (sorry WW for giving away your secret) and do way better than expected.  If you're playing Marin you will just veto KCThrone Room every single game.

FTFY.

But being serious, I agree. I don't think veto mode adds to the strategic depth of the game. I find veto mode to lead to less interesting games on average.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #188 on: December 21, 2012, 04:25:58 pm »
+2

The more opportunities there are for me to outplay my opponent, the more accurately the format represents a measure of skill.  The primary purpose of a tournament is to identify and laud the most skillful.
Well if you just want to test skill, then maybe we should just play chess instead.  We are specifically looking for skill at playing Dominion.  Veto mode is not part of Dominion; it is a variant of Dominion which you have practiced and which is also popular among some others on this forum.  Why give an advantage to people who have more experience with this particular variant?

Quote
http://yourcybercourt.info/fallacies/list.html#sec-25
Needless to say, I do not share this view.
It's not an appeal to tradition in my view.  Rather, I'm arguing that if we wish to see who is best at playing Dominion, we ought to play Dominion, rather than fan designed variants which alledgedly increase the role of skill.  This thread considers whether introducing a doubling cube to Dominion would help to reduce the role of luck over a series of matches.  Should we make that the default for the tournament?  Why or why not?

Edit:  On other points.

Quote
I haven't vetoed attacks just for the sake of vetoing attacks (except Possession, of course) in a long time.  I veto to make the board more interesting and/or make available divergent strategies and/or present a trap card to lead my opponent down a wrong path and/or ensure a 5/2 split doesn't automatically win the game on the first turn.

Speaking of the latter, identical starting hands is the default enforcement, yes?  That was clearly a decision away from "like the cardboard"/dumb luck, and towards more skill.
See?  This is what I mean.  For players who are quite skilled, but who play IRL or even on Goko, and have never dealt with this veto mode variant, they will be at a disadvantage.  They will simply have less experience at the nuance of choosing a card to veto.  Identical starting hands, however, does not present a choice, and therefore provides comparatively little advantage to player more accustomed to this rule variant.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:32:46 pm by SirPeebles »
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jonts26

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #189 on: December 21, 2012, 04:31:16 pm »
+2

The more opportunities there are for me to outplay my opponent, the more accurately the format represents a measure of skill.  The primary purpose of a tournament is to identify and laud the most skillful.
Well if you just want to test skill, then maybe we should just play chess instead.  We are specifically looking for skill at playing Dominion.  Veto mode is not part of Dominion; it is a variant of Dominion which you have practiced and which is also popular among some others on this forum.  Why give an advantage to people who have more experience with this particular variant?

Which is a fine sentiment, but we also allow for identical starting hands, which is also a variant. So is there a difference between the two?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:48:11 pm by jonts26 »
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ddubois

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #190 on: December 21, 2012, 04:33:17 pm »
+1

See I think Veto Mode is much, much more likely to generate "dumb" boards.  For example, against WW I'd just automatically veto any alt-VP cards (sorry WW for giving away your secret) and do way better than expected.  If you're playing Marin you will just veto KCThrone Room every single game.

FTFY.

But being serious, I agree. I don't think veto mode adds to the strategic depth of the game. I find veto mode to lead to less interesting games on average.

Interesting replies, and good points that validate the non-veto decision.

A couple of counterpoints though:
1) The fact that you are vetoing cards based on your opponent seems like a cool bit of strategy to me.  It's adding metagame, taking in more information, making more decisions with that information.
2) Instead of vetoing the alt-vp card, consider vetoing the Bureaucrat or Trader or Ironworks that makes the his predisposition the right choice.  Instead of banning the Throne Room, ban the glue card (usually the gainer or buy, although in the case of throne room it could be some sole cantrip) that makes the engine viable.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:35:01 pm by ddubois »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #191 on: December 21, 2012, 04:45:15 pm »
+4

i'm all for having this discussion for the 100th time, but maybe could we move it out of the results thread?
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Funkiemonk

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #192 on: December 23, 2012, 02:38:22 pm »
0

Funkiemonk wins 4-1

Game 1: Funkiemonk 30 - benjigab 25
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-150626-d45df51c.html
Ambassador and Jack, with some fishing villages thrown in for the occasional cute draw with Jack.

Game 2: benjigab 61 - Funkiemonk 41
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-152244-8ff3f0bf.html
It would be easy to blame this loss on the turn 4 sea hag my opponent pulls from the BM deck, but my remodel open wasn't helping me either.

Game 3: Funkiemonk 42 - benjigab 27
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-153402-a11ea018.html
My opponent goes for fool's gold while I try for watchtower/outpost.  With Inn being the only source of +actions, outpost ends up being pretty useless for both of us.  I think Harvest is what makes the difference here.

Game 4: Funkiemonk 50 - benjigab 39
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-154544-acc5634d.html
I'm surprised I won this game as I felt I was outplayed.  I had better swindler luck, hitting his swindler turn 4 and his followers turn 16.  I think bag of gold really helped here as did the strong final turn.

Game 5: Funkiemonk 38 - benjigab 25
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-155614-cac40e27.html
Also very surprised to have won this.  He gets a jump on the grand markets and KC.  His turn 18 and some end game luck helps me here for sure.
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benjigab

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #193 on: December 23, 2012, 03:15:21 pm »
0

Funkiemonk really deserved the win, even though clearly he got luckier in games 4 and 5. But I also got my fair share of luck in game 2, in which clearly the sea hag from the BM deck gave me the game. Thanks again for a nice batch of games, Funkiemonk !
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LordHedgie

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2012, 10:32:32 pm »
+5

Final tally - LordHedgie 4, ddubois (VetoPossession) 2

Game 1 - LordHedgie 31, ddubois 22
This was a Young Witch / Curse dominated game. Although I ended up with more of the Curses, I also had more Gold, and won the Province split 5-3. Not the most exciting game I've played.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-183317-92547596.html

Game 2 - LordHedgie 46, ddubois 22
Another Young Witch game, although with Tunnels added for extra variety. ddubois took a variety of cards, including Lookout, presumably to try to drop some Curses. I got more Tunnels, and thus more Golds, and won with a three pile ending (Duchies, Tunnels, and Curses).
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-184709-7d6c1670.html

Game 3 - ddubois 21, LordHedgie 19
IGG led to another Curse-dominated game, and another obvious three pile ending. ddubois played much better than I, and although we were very close in points I knew he had a better deck. I took a big risk in grabbing the penultimate Duchy, and he picked up the last one to regain the lead and end the game.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-185138-688303e5.html

Game 4 - LordHedgie 54, ddubois 34
I tried to take an early lead, and ddubois built a powerful Alchemist-based deck. Near the end I was confident that I'd won as my lead was only three points less than the number of points still in the supply, but then he finally got all the Grand Markets, Throne Rooms, Alchemists, and Banks all working together. I'm still not certain that he didn't have enough points and buys to take the lead, but he held back, and I ended the game the next turn with the final Province. The score is deceptive, this was a close game!
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-190351-fb7f2d07.html

Game 5 ddubois 50, LordHedgie 43
I played Bishop, ddubois played City. I knew in the long run he had a better deck (again), so I took another risk with the penultimate Colony. Once again the risk did not pay off, and he picked up the last Colony to retake the lead and end the game. I'm not sure I would have fared any better playing it differently, though, I needed to have ended that game two turns earlier and I couldn't.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-190914-ed6cea41.html

Game 6 LordHedgie 32, ddubois 27
Seahag was both of our openings, and once again ddubois took Apprentices to clear out his Curses while I concentrated on scoring. My intent was to Duchy-Duke myself to a three-pile ending before he could Colony up a high score, but the Duchies gave me a strong early lead and I only picked up one Duke before intentionally ending it with a five point lead over him.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/28/game-20121228-191738-a0a8c694.html
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #195 on: December 31, 2012, 12:33:49 pm »
+1

In Round 4 Mic Qsenoch wins 4-2 over boloni

Game 1 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-081246-212e09af.html

We have 5/2 split on an Ambassador board. I think about ignoring Amb and going for Mine into Hoard, but Amb into Grand Market looks too strong. I get my deck size down faster but I repeatedly draw my Ambassadors dead without a Village, he gets the first Grand Market and it snowballs from there.

Game 2 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-082048-78341f9d.html
I try Hebalist/Pstone against Young Witch money. I don't know exactly what I screwed up here, I think a couple of the silvers I bought should be Herbalists or Estates, but other than that I feel like Herb/Pstone should be strong here. He wins.

Game 3 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-083152-4416a19d.html
We have the same idea for decks, but I try to trash earlier with Trade Route, and he seems to overbuy the Conspirators a bit. I think a few more Governors would have helped him out. I end it on piles when I get the chance. I feel like I didn't use my Governors very effectively though, I mostly just drew cards.

Game 4 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-084506-19156d0c.html
Tournament game with Tactician where I buy my Province before picking up any Tournaments. I am fortunate to get the three big prizes and the game becomes a little lopsided.

Game 5 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-085610-9390ee77.html
Another Ambassador game, this time the players are Border Village, Haggler, Caravan, Walled Village. We both open Caravan/Ambassador. He gets a Haggler on Turn 5, and on Turn 6 can buy a Border Village with Haggler in play. I think the game is lost, but I end up winning the deck size battle decisively and thus the game.

Game 6 - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-090243-de9f6b20.html
Salvager, Fool's Gold, Embargo, Hunting Party, Remake
He opens Fool's Gold/Salvager, so I open Embargo/Remake. I get two tokens on the FG pile and he picks up four curses in a single turn. I just clean my deck up with Remake and move on to Hunting Parties for the win.

This series had some fun boards, though most of the games ended up lopsided. First player only won one of the games. Thanks for the match boloni.
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Funkiemonk

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #196 on: January 01, 2013, 04:37:00 pm »
0

Funkiemonk wins over Lowpants in a very close 4-3 round.

Game 1 - Funkiemonk
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-120809-0bc3f9ce.html
Pretty boring board with Horse Traders and Cache.

Game 2 - Lowpants
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-121524-dc769bb4.html
I try to go for a Gardens rush with Jack on a colony board.  Chapel helps my opponent stay ahead by grabbing provinces and a few colonies.

Game 3 - Lowpants
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-122236-a63df469.html
An interesting familiar/P-stone game.  On turn 11 I choose familiar over P-stone, which I feel was a mistake.  A close game.

Game 4 - Funkiemonk
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-123342-54a88abb.html
Torturer-chain game.  I have some good turns with smugglers allowing me to grab more mining villages and torturers.

Game 5 - Lowpants
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-124554-6b763f9c.html
I get smoked in this Scrying Pool-dominated game.  He wins the split 7-3 and keeps me pinned for most of the game.

Game 6 - Funkiemonk
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-125815-fc0f090e.html
A Vineyards-dominated game where we manage only 8 action cards each at the end.  Young Witch is the difference maker in this one.

Game 7 - Funkiemonk
Forgot to save the log.  A standard Tournament game with Chapel.  I get the Tournament luck by pulling the first collision to snag a Followers.  Pretty much gg at that point.

Overall very well played on Lowpants's part.  A shame the final game came down to who could get luckier with Tournament.  I enjoyed most of these kingdoms, Game 1 had the only real dead board.
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shark_bait

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #197 on: January 01, 2013, 09:00:13 pm »
0

Game 7 - Funkiemonk
Forgot to save the log.  A standard Tournament game with Chapel.  I get the Tournament luck by pulling the first collision to snag a Followers.  Pretty much gg at that point.

Overall very well played on Lowpants's part.  A shame the final game came down to who could get luckier with Tournament.  I enjoyed most of these kingdoms, Game 1 had the only real dead board.


I'd love to see the log for this game.  I agree that Followers is often the best prize but with Chapel for trashing I wonder if there is enough Village/Draw support to make an engine where a different prize would be better.
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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2013, 07:08:46 am »
0


Great games, funkiemonk. Good luck against, probably, WW.

Some additional thoughts:

Game 2
28 rounds for all provinces with chapel and smithy? That is terrible! To my defense, I hit four 7s in the final 7 rounds, with just one province remaining.

Game 3
I think the Hagglers made the difference, giving me gold and Mining Villages.

Game 5
I let some steam off, after the Torturer game ...

Game 6
funkiemonk took always some time to look at the board, before his first buy, while I played kind of reckless. I did not notice the Vineyard, lost the split and the game. Some bad luck though, always hitting my Masquerades dead. I really think they should be able to clean the deck from the curses effectively.

Game 7
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-130542-bd4b3986.html
Final coin toss, to determine the winner. I get the better start, but he gets the first price. The hand size reduction kills me, and the curses do not help.
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Funkiemonk

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Re: Witch Division: Bracket and Results
« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2013, 02:53:20 pm »
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Some (more) additional comments:

Game 3
I think the Hagglers made the difference, giving me gold and Mining Villages.
Yeah on second look I didn't give haggler enough credit.  I really thought explorer was the right play (don't get to say that much and be right).

Game 6
funkiemonk took always some time to look at the board, before his first buy, while I played kind of reckless. I did not notice the Vineyard, lost the split and the game. Some bad luck though, always hitting my Masquerades dead. I really think they should be able to clean the deck from the curses effectively.
I was surprised about that too, I expected to be passed a lot more curses.

And as for game 7 in response to shark_bait, it looks like there was some engine possibility with bridge and walled village on the board.  I remember wondering if trying for some bridge engine was the best play, but I was not comfortable in my ability to play it right, so I decide to keep it simple and hope for the best.
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