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[DStu]

Province.  I can't tell you how many games I've lost because my opponent got more of these than I did.

Yepp, basically all you have to do is get some money and Provinces...

[^_^_^_^]

Provinces Smovinces, what about Platinum?!!? I mean that is so hard to even buy but when you do it is like "BLAM BABY I JUST GOT $5 from 1 card!!!" I don't even know how many games I've lost due to my opponent getting more Platinum out of his Smithies!
edit: And dondon has 1 respect for every day of the year o.O congrats.

[SirPeebles]

Provinces Smovinces, what about Platinum?!!? I mean that is so hard to even buy but when you do it is like "BLAM BABY I JUST GOT $5 from 1 card!!!" I don't even know how many games I've lost due to my opponent getting more Platinum out of his Smithies!
edit: And dondon has 1 respect for every day of the year o.O congrats.

+1 to him.  2012 is a leap year.

[clb]

Sorry, no hating on cards from me. I lose on my own often enough that a swingy card isn't significant. I lost a game the other night because I was juggling a sick son and a should-not-have-been-awake daughter while playing. I bought a Lab instead of a Duchy and lost because I didn't see there were only 2 coppers left (4-player mountebank).

I will say that a 5-player estate/copper/silver slog in the face of massive Saboteur with no other $2 or $3 cards is not my favorite game.

The cards in Alchemy have to be good enough when they're the only Alchemy card out, and if they are then you may draw your Potion without quite enough money. The general solution is not to do this kind of thing in Dominion expansions, but in spin-offs instead, where you can ensure that there's always plenty of whatever, and then balance the cards for that situation.
...
Also it adds a decision that's sometimes interesting, and puts cards in your deck that you didn't want but which might be useful anyway. It does add luck, and especially hurts when they hit your $5 early, say while hitting someone else's Estate, but it also adds skill. You see people blow it on that decision so often; the funniest case is where they hit Silver and cannot bear to give you a Swindler for it.

Question the first: Is this sort of thing (the first paragaph) a leading candidate for the DOminion 2.0 that isn't really promised, but is rumored to be more likely than an additional expansion?

Question the second: when would you ever feel comfortable swindling someone's silver into a swindler? I would think they would have to be terminal-heavy and already have a swindler or two for it to be a good idea. Any other thoughts? You have 10 Market Squares in your deck and there are no kingdom cards at $6 and $8?

[Donald X.]

Question the first: Is this sort of thing (the first paragaph) a leading candidate for the DOminion 2.0 that isn't really promised, but is rumored to be more likely than an additional expansion?

Question the second: when would you ever feel comfortable swindling someone's silver into a swindler? I would think they would have to be terminal-heavy and already have a swindler or two for it to be a good idea. Any other thoughts? You have 10 Market Squares in your deck and there are no kingdom cards at $6 and $8?

1: Well yes and no, I mean it's not like I'm planning anything that people will compare to Alchemy. But if you make Dominion-with-a-board, for example, and some cards interact with the board, those cards are like cards that cost a potion - except, you always care about the board. That may seem weird but really, if I made a Dominion expansion with a board, you would see it; some games you would ignore that card because it was the only card out that did stuff with the board. But make a spin-off instead and you're fine.

2: When you are Swindling somebody, that helps them become terminal heavy. Are there games with Swindler where you have $3 at some point and buy Silver instead? I am betting there are.

[jsh357]

So I mentioned my distaste for Governor games earlier.  This game here was very therapeutic for me.  My opponent trashes four Golds to Provinces, I think I'm down, and I get a killer Horn of Plenty megaturn to beat out GenericGov in one greening turn.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/03/game-20121203-161323-32b15630.html

[clb]

Question the first: Is this sort of thing (the first paragaph) a leading candidate for the Dominion 2.0 that isn't really promised, but is rumored to be more likely than an additional expansion?

Question the second: when would you ever feel comfortable swindling someone's silver into a swindler? I would think they would have to be terminal-heavy and already have a swindler or two for it to be a good idea. Any other thoughts? You have 10 Market Squares in your deck and there are no kingdom cards at $6 and $8?

1: Well yes and no, I mean it's not like I'm planning anything that people will compare to Alchemy. But if you make Dominion-with-a-board, for example, and some cards interact with the board, those cards are like cards that cost a potion - except, you always care about the board. That may seem weird but really, if I made a Dominion expansion with a board, you would see it; some games you would ignore that card because it was the only card out that did stuff with the board. But make a spin-off instead and you're fine.

2: When you are Swindling somebody, that helps them become terminal heavy. Are there games with Swindler where you have $3 at some point and buy Silver instead? I am betting there are.

The example you give does seem to bear a resemblence to Kingdom Builder - cards that make you care what is going on with the board and how you interact with it (maybe the reverse of what you said).
I do buy silver over Swindler often. But buying silver doesn't help my opponent. Perhaps this will result in an epiphany for me - maybe I play too paranoid/conservative and the thought of empowering my opponent to trash my cards is unnerving. I guess I get to be the comedic relief where I cannot bear to give out a Swindler. I will have to give it a try.

[SirPeebles]

Question the first: Is this sort of thing (the first paragaph) a leading candidate for the Dominion 2.0 that isn't really promised, but is rumored to be more likely than an additional expansion?

Question the second: when would you ever feel comfortable swindling someone's silver into a swindler? I would think they would have to be terminal-heavy and already have a swindler or two for it to be a good idea. Any other thoughts? You have 10 Market Squares in your deck and there are no kingdom cards at $6 and $8?

1: Well yes and no, I mean it's not like I'm planning anything that people will compare to Alchemy. But if you make Dominion-with-a-board, for example, and some cards interact with the board, those cards are like cards that cost a potion - except, you always care about the board. That may seem weird but really, if I made a Dominion expansion with a board, you would see it; some games you would ignore that card because it was the only card out that did stuff with the board. But make a spin-off instead and you're fine.

2: When you are Swindling somebody, that helps them become terminal heavy. Are there games with Swindler where you have $3 at some point and buy Silver instead? I am betting there are.

The example you give does seem to bear a resemblence to Kingdom Builder - cards that make you care what is going on with the board and how you interact with it (maybe the reverse of what you said).
I do buy silver over Swindler often. But buying silver doesn't help my opponent. Perhaps this will result in an epiphany for me - maybe I play too paranoid/conservative and the thought of empowering my opponent to trash my cards is unnerving. I guess I get to be the comedic relief where I cannot bear to give out a Swindler. I will have to give it a try.

The point is that you Swindled your opponent's Silver.  That Silver is trashed now.  It's gone.  You are now obligated to provide your opponent with a free $3 card from the supply.  You could ask yourself, which card would your challenger choose to purchase right now, if given the opportunity?  If there are times when you would purchase Silver over Swindler, then this is likely the case for your worthy foe as well.  Is this one of those times?  If so, you ought to toss on over a Swindler.

[jomini]

Question the second: when would you ever feel comfortable swindling someone's silver into a swindler? I would think they would have to be terminal-heavy and already have a swindler or two for it to be a good idea. Any other thoughts? You have 10 Market Squares in your deck and there are no kingdom cards at $6 and $8?

Ehh, there are many such cases where you don't have to be terminal heavy to want to give a swindler:
1. I bought out all the peddlers. You get a swindler, now how often are you really going to play it knowing you've got a, say, 1 in 4 chance of giving me a free province?
2. I've run loan and the curse pile is empty, I give you a swindler and you may give me 1 VP (curse to copper) and I may even, finally, be able to trash a junk card from my engine.
3. We both bought 3 swindlers thanks to early swindling of swindlers. This means that I can push the pile down to 9 coin/3 buys to empty it.
4. I've emptied out the only 5 coin kingdom pile in the game (minion, venture, whatever) and the game is getting close to the end; again how often do you want to give me a free-ish duchy?
5. In addition to Market Square, several reactions can make swindler a no-go. If I have a top decked watchtower every turn, you will thin my deck for me. If I always top deck Horse Traders, you will often give me 6 card hands.
6. You are playing with menege or hunting party; 2 swindlers can be much worse than leaving around a single silver/single swindler. Likewise, forcing you to spend a buy on getting a silver in a Fairgrounds engine deck can be strong.

[LastFootnote]

All these edge cases aside, the later it is in the game, the more likely I am to give my opponent a Swindler. Swindler best on the first few turns when you're likely to hit Copper. If your opponent hits your Province with a Swindler, that's bad for them a lot more often than it is for you, especially if it was the last Province and they have $8 to spend.

A general rule for me is, if we've started greening, giving my opponents Swindlers is good. (Obviously there are boards where this is not the case.)

[chwhite]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

[() | (_) ^/]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

Agreed!  Even if the card was just: "+$2, you may play any treasures in your hand at this time," I would still love finding ways to exploit use it.

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree on Black Market. I think it is awesome that we have one card in the game that lets us play treasures outside of the buy phase. With Dominion, every rule needs to be broken.

[jaybeez]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

Agreed!  Even if the card was just: "+$2, you may play any treasures in your hand at this time," I would still love finding ways to exploit use it.

I actually think I would like Black Market a lot more if that's what it did.  It would be far less powerful, more of a niche card, but it would still be just as interesting, and would be infinitely less annoying.

[() | (_) ^/]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

Agreed!  Even if the card was just: "+$2, you may play any treasures in your hand at this time," I would still love finding ways to exploit use it.

I actually think I would like Black Market a lot more if that's what it did.  It would be far less powerful, more of a niche card, but it would still be just as interesting, and would be infinitely less annoying.

I'd be interested.  Hey, if you and I ever play, remind me of this and we'll just both never buy things from the BM deck.  Deal?

[ftl]

Well, since technically there aren't hard and fast rules for what goes into the Black Market deck, IRL you can just set it up with an empty Black Market deck for the same effect.

Anyway, with that, it's just a very niche card. Basically no effect except for combos with a small number of specific other cards.

[SirPeebles]

I'd probably give poor old Black Market a +1 Action in this case.

Edit:  Or maybe a +1 buy, to replace the lost "virtual buy".

[Schneau]

Edit:  Or maybe a +1 buy, to replace the lost "virtual buy".

You mean, like, Woodcutter?

[SirPeebles]

Edit:  Or maybe a +1 buy, to replace the lost "virtual buy".

You mean, like, Woodcutter?

Right, then Black Market would be a strictly better Woodcutter.  Which is against the meta-rules.  Bah.

[PSGarak]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

I have a special hatred for Black Market, because I agree that it's the best part of the card, but the card itself does not mention that effect, or even imply it that strongly. I agree with jaybeez, if it were an explicit part of the effect I would be more OK with it. But it feels wrong to me that so much of the power comes from not even the secondary functionality of the card, but the implementation details of the secondary part of the card, as explained in the errata.

[ftl]

Well, that's why it's a promo.

[DStu]

Well, since technically there aren't hard and fast rules for what goes into the Black Market deck, IRL you can just set it up with an empty Black Market deck for the same effect.

Anyway, with that, it's just a very niche card. Basically no effect except for combos with a small number of specific other cards.

Reprice it at $2 and there you go. Terminal Silver which can sometimes do small things. Sounds like a standard $2.

[Davio]

Well, that's why it's a promo.

That's often forgotten I feel.

The fact that we have unlimited availability on Iso is a poor reflection of real life play, where you'd sometimes whip it out to spice things up and play a wacky game.

[Stealth Tomato]

Provinces Smovinces, what about Platinum?!!? I mean that is so hard to even buy but when you do it is like "BLAM BABY I JUST GOT $5 from 1 card!!!" I don't even know how many games I've lost due to my opponent getting more Platinum out of his Smithies!
edit: And dondon has 1 respect for every day of the year o.O congrats.

You'll note that Donald mentions in that very article how swingy Platinum is, precisely because it's so powerful and the options at slightly lower price points are massively inferior.

[jaybeez]

But even more than that, I HATE being able to play Treasures outside of the buy phase. I view Action-Buy-Cleanup as fundamental to the game and it bothers me that Black Market messes so much with that clean delineation.

But that's the best part of Black Market!  It lets you do so many cool things with Tactician, Library, Menagerie, etc...

Agreed!  Even if the card was just: "+$2, you may play any treasures in your hand at this time," I would still love finding ways to exploit use it.

I actually think I would like Black Market a lot more if that's what it did.  It would be far less powerful, more of a niche card, but it would still be just as interesting, and would be infinitely less annoying.

I'd be interested.  Hey, if you and I ever play, remind me of this and we'll just both never buy things from the BM deck.  Deal?

Deal! 

Also I just had another interesting idea for "improving" Black Market: make it so you can play your treasures during your Action phase, and also allow you to make one buy from the supply during your Action phase.  That would allow for interesting stuff like leveling up Cities during your turn, or maybe doing really specialized stuff like buying the last Duchy during your Action phase so your opponent can't upgrade a $4 to a Duchy when you remodel a Gold with your Governor, stuff like that.  It would still be a niche card like I said before but it would broaden its possible applications a bit, and it would make it a potentially really interesting card on boards with no +Buy.

And the theme of the card would still be intact!  Instead of getting cards you're not supposed to be able to buy, at a time you're not supposed to be able to buy cards, now you're just buying cards that you can normally buy, but at a time when you typically can't, so there's still this kind of "this card allows you to break the buying rules" feel.