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Varsinor

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Rule questions 2012
« on: December 01, 2012, 08:32:44 pm »
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I have the following two rule questions:

1. Under numeral 6 of the rules it says:

Quote from: Rules
If the players are unable to reach an agreement, they shall play with randomly selected cards (excluding any fan-made cards), no veto mode, and the official point counter. Use of unofficial point counters, notepads, etc. is not prohibited.

I am not quite certain whether this means that you can use the Chrome point counter extension (or alternatively simply a notepad) if the players don't reach an agreement on that. I guess it depends on if "official point counter" is meant in contrast to "Chrome point counter extension" / "notepad" - I wouldn't really see it as a contrast to that because the official point counter is also used when using the extension (or a notepad). But I am uncertain if the author meant it this way.
Could the organinzer please straighten that out for me?

2. Numeral 7 of the rules states:

Quote from: Rules
First player in the first game of the match is randomly determined.

That is very sensible of course, but how do we achieve that? How can I be sure that my opponent hasn't just played and lost a game in which case the first player would not be randomly determined if I have just logged on?
I would propose that both players take turns watching each other log out prior to the first game. Or is there a better way?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:44:48 pm by Varsinor »
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jsh357

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 08:42:34 pm »
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For #2, doesn't the Tournament lobby automatically take care of this?
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 08:55:08 pm »
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For #2, doesn't the Tournament lobby automatically take care of this?

No. If nothing has changed, Iso sorts players into two groups: Those that have lost their last game (and are still logged on) and those that have either won their last game or have just logged on (not sure about ties, my guess would be that they are counted as a victory).
Only if all players are in the same group, player order is determined randomly. Otherwise, players from the first group go first.

Which I find an extremely stupid rule (especially but not only with regards to tournaments), but unless we can get Doug to change it very soon, we need to find a way to deal with it. In my opinion, just disregarding it would not be a very fair option.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:59:52 pm by Varsinor »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 09:09:34 pm »
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i'll defer to theory in case i get some of this a little off, but i think i can answer well enough.

- i believe the intent behind the point counter extension ruling was to allow it, largely because it is impossible to enforce. but at the same time, we didn't exactly want to encourage it's use either, or make players feel as if they are obligated to go obtain this extension. and as with any other variant, it is preferable if both players can reach an agreement on it's use for their set. i think that any potential confusion on the matter is likely due to our just copying the rules from last year and adding a few slight changes.
- as for seating, i believe that this has traditionally been done by both players just logging on and off quickly. if this solution is not adequate than i can talk with theory and jonts and we can just do a coin flip or something for each set and tell you who goes first.

as for dougz making any changes, i wouldn't count on it. he expressed way back in his ama that he wasn't interested in making many changes, and i doubt that his motivation to do so has increased with goko's impending release looming larger over time.
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Rabid

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 09:17:27 pm »
+1

I think the tournament lobby lets you set the turn order.
But doesn't let you choose random.

I think the best solution is to meet in Secret Chamber, then both log off & on just before the match.
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 09:20:13 am »
+1

- i believe the intent behind the point counter extension ruling was to allow it, largely because it is impossible to enforce. but at the same time, we didn't exactly want to encourage it's use either, or make players feel as if they are obligated to go obtain this extension. and as with any other variant, it is preferable if both players can reach an agreement on it's use for their set. i think that any potential confusion on the matter is likely due to our just copying the rules from last year and adding a few slight changes.

I have read that this issue has caused a sizeable conflict on a past tournament, so I think it is imperative to make the rules on this absolutely crystal clear to avoid new quarrel.

I personally love the Chrome point counter extension and think Dominion is a much better game with it. I have explained in detail my reasons for this and also why I think that it should especially be allowed in tournaments here (*click*). (Points #1-#3 are mostly the ones explaining my personal taste and #4 and #5 are the ones particularly pertaining to tournaments.)

But anyway, my view on it is not the issue. I really don't want to start a new discussion about it here. I realize there are people who disagree with my opinion and I absolutely respect that.
So in a tournament, it is simply a question of what the rules say. Everyone has to respect the rules and either refrain from using the extension or refrain from criticizing anyone for using it. Period. So:

Is it clearly forbidden for everyone to use the extension if the opponent doesn't want him to? If it is not forbidden, I will use it in every game. If it is clearly forbidden, I will honor that rule of course.

So please state the rules on that clearly and publicly
(and as soon as possible, as tomorrow the games will start). Thanks in advance! :D
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 09:42:32 am »
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I think the best solution is to meet in Secret Chamber, then both log off & on just before the match.

Is there a way for the remaining player to distinguish logging off from just changing to one of the other two lobbies?

If no, I'd prefer greatexpectations' proposal to draw lots for the beginner of the first game and set that up in the Tournament lobby (although someone would need to tell me how that is done ;)).

(If drawing lots turns out to be too much work, a rule saying to log off before the first game would already be much better than nothing, of course - I guess it would need a strong will to cheat to circumvent that by just changing lobbies.)
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Rabid

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 10:16:24 am »
+3

Use of unofficial point counters, notepads, etc. is not prohibited.
This is very clear to me.

It means chrome point counter is allowed but not required.

I agree the turn order rule has room for improvement.
If you really want to stop cheating I think the best way would be as follows:
Admin randomises start player when they do the pairings.

Play in the tournament lobby and alternate start player each game regardless of the result. (removing the loser starts next game rule). I think this is essentially the same expect if you have draws. And if you do have a drawn game it will now mean you both got to go first 4 times each. I think under the old rules with a drawn game a 5 / 3 split was possible. (results for P1 of: WLDWLWLW then they get to start games 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 ).

This seems slightly fairer in a few edge cases but might not be worth the extra effort.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:09:08 am by Rabid »
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 11:01:58 am »
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Use of unofficial point counters, notepads, etc. is not prohibited.
This is very clear to me.

It means chrome point counter is allowed but not required.

The question is if it is allowed when the opponent objects to its use.
You seem to imply "yes" and I also think that is a likely interpretation of numeral 6 of the rules.

However, one could argue that it means that the extension is not prohibitied when both players agree, but in the case where they are unable to reach an agreement, the "official point counter" is used - which might be meant in contrast to "point counter extension".

While I am obviously perfectly happy with your interpretation, I'd like a less ambiguous wording with no grounds for any doubt.
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 11:05:47 am »
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Admin randomises start player when they do the pairings.

Play in the tournament lobby and alternate start player each game regardless of the result. (removing the loser starts next game rule). I think this is essentially the same expect if you have draws. And if you do have a drawn game it will now mean you both got to go first 4 times each. I think under the old rules with a drawn game a 5 / 3 split was possible. (results for P1 of: WLDWLWLW then they get to start games 1, 3, 4, 6, 8).

I think this would be a very nice solution (adding removing the loser starts next game rule to the previous proposal)! :D
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jonts26

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 11:30:05 am »
+2

We discussed loser first vs alternating first player and decided to just keep the loser first method. I had thought that maybe loser first would work to slightly undo first player advantage for the series, but I did the math and found that in the absence of draws there is no difference between the two systems, other than loser first encourages slightly longer series, which may work to benefit the higher skilled player.

I suppose you could make the argument that the potential to draw changes things a bit. You can give second player an advantage in the next game if he happens to work out a draw, but it seems rare enough that it won't matter really.
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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 11:51:40 am »
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The rule on point counters seems quite clear to me, as Rabid says: you can use it. Maybe it would be clearer to say they are allowed. But it's the same thing. I applaud this decision.
The only thing I would do there is to say that a PCE should have the ability for the opponent to access the same information, i.e. the !details option which is available on every one I've seen. I don't think this is really an issue though.

The alternating vs loser first - of course it doesn't make a difference on the overall number for the series in any way *unless* the series ends before the whole length is up, in which case loser first puts the winner at a disadvantage - but they won anyway, so.... no big deal. Of course the other way it makes a difference is that some sets have more 1st seat advantage, but as you can't predict this (except for the final - whoever is doing the final may want to think about this), there's no real reason to do it one way or the other.

Draws are the interesting bit. How do we want to handle who goes first after a draw?

shraeye

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 01:09:46 pm »
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Draws are the interesting bit. How do we want to handle who goes first after a draw?
You could use Iso ranking; lower seed goes first.  To make sure this happens, the two players can play a fake first game, where the lower ranked person resigns, setting them up to be the starting player in the first actual game.

Just my thought.
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jonts26

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 01:11:26 pm »
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OK, so we want to get everything settled by tonight for the tourney.

Point Counters and PCE: You are free to use them unless both players agree to not use them. If you use a PCE, it must be one of the scripts which makes all information public (eg Dr. Helds PCE).

We are keeping with loser first turn order. I suppose that Draws have some minimal effect on the series, but for simplicity sake, allow Iso to handle who goes first after a draw. I believe it uses the same turn order for the next game, but correct me if I'm wrong.

As for who goes first overall, I would love to just be able to trust people to log out/in so it is completely random. I am willing to randomly generate first player advantage though if people feel it is necessary. What if, if either player wants me to pre-randomize first player for the series, I will do so. Otherwise trust each other to log out/in?
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jonts26

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 01:14:20 pm »
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Draws are the interesting bit. How do we want to handle who goes first after a draw?
You could use Iso ranking; lower seed goes first.  To make sure this happens, the two players can play a fake first game, where the lower ranked person resigns, setting them up to be the starting player in the first actual game.

Just my thought.

By lower seed do you mean the better or worse player? Either way, I don't know if it's really fair to give either player an extra advantage.
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Varsinor

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 01:39:02 pm »
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Point Counters and PCE: You are free to use them unless both players agree to not use them. If you use a PCE, it must be one of the scripts which makes all information public (eg Dr. Helds PCE).

Great, thanks for clarifying! :D

As for who goes first overall, I would love to just be able to trust people to log out/in so it is completely random. I am willing to randomly generate first player advantage though if people feel it is necessary. What if, if either player wants me to pre-randomize first player for the series, I will do so. Otherwise trust each other to log out/in?

Great if you are willing to do that! In that case, please do it for my games.
While I would think that the number of people who would cheat deliberately for first player advantage is really small, I think there is a much higher number of people who don't know that they are supposed to log out before the first game. Therefore I would have to discuss it with every opponent first which I imagine to be quite annoying. Especially considering that I am not even sure what exactly constitues a log out for the player order routine. What if you close the Iso browser window but have another window of the same browser open? What if you close all browser windows but don't automatically delete your cookies on closing them? Unless we know that for sure, there is extra plenty of room for getting it wrong without any intent of cheating.
I any case, I would feel better if the organizers randomly detect first player for my (first) games and we set that up on Iso. As long as someone can tell me how that is done in the Tournament lobby... ;) I couldn't find anything on my own or in the Iso FAQ.

By the way, thanks a lot for organizing this tournament, guys! :D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:09:10 pm by Varsinor »
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Rabid

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 01:47:51 pm »
+1

Tournament lobby.
Propose game as normal.
Yes I want to play.
Select player order.

You can test using 2 browsers and guest accounts.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:02:50 pm by Rabid »
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dondon151

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 02:57:51 pm »
+1

Bah. I hate the PCE and would much rather prefer it be banned if one player in a match requests so.
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jonts26

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 03:06:08 pm »
+2

Bah. I hate the PCE and would much rather prefer it be banned if one player in a match requests so.

And I'd love for people to trust each other to play fair. We can't always get what we want.
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jsh357

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 03:06:42 pm »
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Same here, but I guess if that's how it's going to be that's how it's going to be.  I have been trying to practice with the PCE but it still feels like a completely different game.
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Lekkit

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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 03:11:40 pm »
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I don't really see how it's a whole different game. It takes a lot less memory to be as good. In my opinion, playing without it adds another variable for skill difference, but in the end, at "higher levels" you should be able to track your deck either way.
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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 03:12:40 pm »
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If we face each other jsh357, I will gladly take you on in an epic series with no PCE.  ;)
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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 03:17:13 pm »
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OK, GE and I talked it over and we've decided we're just going to do the first player randomization for every game.

We will indicate (either on the general spreasheet or on the bracket somewhere) who goes first in each match. Likely I will create a random number 1-256 for each participant and in any given match, lower number goes first in the first game. These will be used throughout the tournament.

I'll include these instructions again when we announce brackets. You will have to play your first game in the tournament lobby, selecting who goes first. Then, both players can either manually set up each game, or head over to the Secret Chamber lobby where loser goes first will be preserved.

If there are any objections to this, speak now because this will go official in a few hours when everything is finalized.
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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 03:19:15 pm »
+5

Please, do not use the same number thoughout the tournament. That would mean that someone with a really low number would ALWAYS go first. It should be random every match.
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Re: Rule questions 2012
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 03:19:54 pm »
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I don't really see how it's a whole different game. It takes a lot less memory to be as good. In my opinion, playing without it adds another variable for skill difference, but in the end, at "higher levels" you should be able to track your deck either way.

Hey, it's just my opinion, man.  I'm not trying to instigate another discussion as it's already been had and we didn't get anything good out of it besides Donald X's mafia post.  To me, the element of uncertainty makes a huge difference.  It doesn't actually matter for most games, but it's huge with, say, alternate VP sets.  Regardless, if those are the rules of the tournament those are the rules no matter how I or anyone else feels about it.  You basically have to use the PCE or be at a disadvantage.
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