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Author Topic: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?  (Read 5903 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« on: December 01, 2012, 10:25:02 am »
0

Lighthouse, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains and Counting House?

I don't remember playing another game where I haven't considered Mountebank a must-buy, but I decided to skip it here. I lost, but it was close. What does everyone else think? Would you have picked up a Mountebank here?
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thirtyseven

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 11:23:26 am »
0

I'd try Counting House/IGG here. With the probable exception of Sea Hag, it's my policy never to buy cursers with IGG on the board. (Not saying it's right.)
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 11:41:39 am »
+5

I'd try Counting House/IGG here. With the probable exception of Sea Hag, it's my policy never to buy cursers with IGG on the board. (Not saying it's right.)

That is definitely not the right policy, the presence of other cursers is often a reason not to go IGG.
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DG

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 11:45:40 am »
0

There are also harems in this kingdom and they do make a difference. They are one of the few cards that do hold their value in an IGG game. If I've got time I'll put together a simulation later but it might be quite complex. I'm guessing that there will be small windows of opportunity for a good mountebank or counting house purchase.
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quasi

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 12:29:47 pm »
+4

I think the question of whether or not to buy a curser is almost always independent of the particular curser, i.e. it's hard to think of a situation where you would want Mountebank, but not Witch.  In some games, however, there could be a dichotomy between Witch/Mountebank and Sea Hag/Familiar, since the latter two cost you much more tempo.

Having said that, in the vast majority of games a cursing card is mandatory, and you have to work a little hard to find a game where you can definitively say you don't need such a curser.  I can think of one game I played that had throne room, wharf, lighthouse, and familiar.  My opponent picked up at least three familiars.  I went heavy on throne rooms and wharves, and bought two lighthouses.  Relatively soon, I was drawing my deck entire deck, and I always had protection from lighthouse.  Wharf is the kind of really strong card you need to avoid cursers.  Still, given that I gave an example with so many cards, you can see that such an event is relatively rare.

The key thing here is mostly that you can draw your entire deck EVERY TURN, and wharf is best for doing this robustly.  Instead of lighthouse, you can throw in a strong trasher (forge is best, but expensive, or chapel).  But you have to be careful, because you're vulnerable before your engine is set up.  Also crucial to this example is the fact that it was familiar, which is slow and forces you to lose a lot of tempo to set up.

Even if you think you can protect yourself from cursers, that still doesn't mean you don't want them.  Cards like familiar and sea hag you might ignore in this case since they hurt you offensively, but Mountebank and Witch are not so onerous, so its pretty rare that you wouldn't want these at all.

One sort of mystifying case is in the presence of Trader.  In a game with Trader and Mountebank, I see players buy multiple Traders, and no Mountebank.  Trader is a hedge against being hit by Mountebank, but you still want the curser.

Also in general, I think some players see strong trashers and think that consequently they can ignore the cursers.  For example, suppose I buy three familiars, and you buy three upgrades but no cursers.  The problem is that youre thinking asymptotically, i.e. in the long run you won't have any curses.  But you neglect the whole midgame where your position is considerably weakened.  There is a large time dependent aspect to cursing cards.  In a chapel game where your deck is miniscule, I would love to buy three familiars.  Putting three curses in your deck in one turn is huge, even if you will eventually trash them.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:39:24 pm by quasi »
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thirtyseven

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 12:41:12 pm »
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I'd try Counting House/IGG here. With the probable exception of Sea Hag, it's my policy never to buy cursers with IGG on the board. (Not saying it's right.)

That is definitely not the right policy, the presence of other cursers is often a reason not to go IGG.

Sorry to move this thread off-topic, but why is that? IGG is on-gain and gives you the money density to get duchies for the 3-pile...
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quasi

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 12:42:50 pm »
+2

I'd try Counting House/IGG here. With the probable exception of Sea Hag, it's my policy never to buy cursers with IGG on the board. (Not saying it's right.)

That is definitely not the right policy, the presence of other cursers is often a reason not to go IGG.

Sorry to move this thread off-topic, but why is that? IGG is on-gain and gives you the money density to get duchies for the 3-pile...

It makes the curse pile and IGG pile uneven.
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Powerman

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 01:05:31 pm »
0

Lighthouse, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains and Counting House?

I don't remember playing another game where I haven't considered Mountebank a must-buy, but I decided to skip it here. I lost, but it was close. What does everyone else think? Would you have picked up a Mountebank here?

I don't understand your turn 13 play... why didn't you just buy a province?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 01:07:00 pm »
+2

I'd try Counting House/IGG here. With the probable exception of Sea Hag, it's my policy never to buy cursers with IGG on the board. (Not saying it's right.)

That is definitely not the right policy, the presence of other cursers is often a reason not to go IGG.

Sorry to move this thread off-topic, but why is that? IGG is on-gain and gives you the money density to get duchies for the 3-pile...

Three piling takes a lot longer if your opponent doesn't buy any IGGs, you have to get 10 IGGs and 10 8 Duchies. Meanwhile your opponent can still junk your deck up a bit with their curser and build up to purchasing Provinces. As quasi pointed out, the curse and IGG pile become uneven as well, so several of your IGG purchases aren't even giving out a curse. The $4 cursers in particular make this situation likely.

This isn't a hard and fast rule though. Sometimes the IGG player can get off to a really quick start and if 8 of the IGGs you buy give curses, then by all means go for the three pile rush. But it will depend a lot on the draws both players get and how well your opponent's deck can handle curses.

Note also that this isn't a recommendation to skip IGG entirely in the presence of other cursers, sometimes buying an IGG to win the split 6-4 can be very important. The IGG rush is just more difficult. IGG also plays nicely with trash for benefit.

And you shouldn't ignore IGG with other cursers if gaining a whole bunch of coppers will really help your strategy out (Gardens, Duke, possibly Silk Roads, and I guess Counting House (ugh)).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:08:11 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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dondon151

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 05:32:47 pm »
0

Lighthouse, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains and Counting House?

I don't remember playing another game where I haven't considered Mountebank a must-buy, but I decided to skip it here. I lost, but it was close. What does everyone else think? Would you have picked up a Mountebank here?

It looks like the Mountebank was the reason that you lost the Curse split, and thus lost the game.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 06:07:00 pm »
0

Lighthouse, Horse Traders, Ill-Gotten Gains and Counting House?

I don't remember playing another game where I haven't considered Mountebank a must-buy, but I decided to skip it here. I lost, but it was close. What does everyone else think? Would you have picked up a Mountebank here?

I don't understand your turn 13 play... why didn't you just buy a province?

I immediately said "whoops" when I realised the Curse pile was already empty.
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Titandrake

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 08:30:48 pm »
0

I can't think of a situation where you want to skip Mountebank: giving 2 bad cards is just so strong. (EDIT: Okay, maybe Ambassador, but picking it up in the middle of the game if there isn't a strong engine can hurt.)

I've skipped Familiar in a game with Steward, Throne Room, and some other engine pieces. By the time I was getting cursed, my deck drew itself fast enough to trash them as they came in, and I had the actions to still trash Treasures as well.

I've also skipped it in a Hunting Party/Lighthouse game. Bought 2 Lighthouses, played every other turn, skipped Gold until I had to to maximize my chances of drawing my deck.

The trend here is that strong engines can sometimes handle skipping the cursers for a bit. But odds are that you want to pick cursers up later anyways, and it's very easy to underestimate how bad Curses are.
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DG

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 09:20:04 pm »
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From what I could pull out of the simulator : open horse trader + silver, take one counting house quite early, then play a straightforward igg game with a short opportunity to buy harems before you take the last iggs and duchies. The mountebank is weak even if you skip the opening lighthouse and then the counting house too.
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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 11:09:43 pm »
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Even wharf-bm beats familiar quite handily.
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quasi

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 12:08:35 am »
0

Even wharf-bm beats familiar quite handily.

Is this generally accepted?  It seems a little iffy to me, especially since you can just buy familiars and wharves, and that's without anything else good on the board.
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 04:23:02 am »
0

On the topic of which curser in particular, Mountebank is the only curser I ever buy against Masquerade.
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jonts26

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 10:02:53 am »
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Even wharf-bm beats familiar quite handily.

Is this generally accepted?  It seems a little iffy to me, especially since you can just buy familiars and wharves, and that's without anything else good on the board.

I can't quite get familiar/wharf to beat wharf/BM in the simulator, but I can get it close. So you aren't so far behind playing familiar/wharf, and it's better if you are looking for a higher variance strategy, maybe from the player 2 seat.
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brokoli

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 11:08:29 am »
0

On the topic of which curser in particular, Mountebank is the only curser I ever buy against Masquerade.

I think it's even more significant with ambassador : you are ruining your turn by giving those coppers and curses to your opponent, losing your time because anyway your deck will never be improved. With masquerade you still have a small benefit (+2 cards) that can be useful.
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quasi

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 11:28:32 am »
0

On the topic of which curser in particular, Mountebank is the only curser I ever buy against Masquerade.

I think almost all of the time you want the curser and the masquerade.  When you give them a curse and they play a masquerade, it's still one more card in their deck than otherwise, and you accept the fact that curses will get passed to you sometimes. (and then you can pass them back)  With witch and mountebank theres almost no opportunity cost to grabbing these.  Familiar has a higher one, but if there are no other plus actions, you just load up on familiar, and very quickly they are net +10 cards in their deck if they dont fight back.  Sea hag is maybe border line since its so slow.  I would maybe only grab that if I had an end goal of building an engine.  In general the more engin-ish your goal, the more cursers you want, but you rarely want to forgot them completely.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:29:57 am by quasi »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 11:53:21 am »
0

Even wharf-bm beats familiar quite handily.

Is this generally accepted?  It seems a little iffy to me, especially since you can just buy familiars and wharves, and that's without anything else good on the board.

I can't quite get familiar/wharf to beat wharf/BM in the simulator, but I can get it close. So you aren't so far behind playing familiar/wharf, and it's better if you are looking for a higher variance strategy, maybe from the player 2 seat.
Speaking of the simulator, was there some new version released? Mine refuses to work now...

flies

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 06:36:37 pm »
+1

On the topic of which curser in particular, Mountebank is the only curser I ever buy against Masquerade.

I think almost all of the time you want the curser and the masquerade.  When you give them a curse and they play a masquerade, it's still one more card in their deck than otherwise, and you accept the fact that curses will get passed to you sometimes. (and then you can pass them back)  With witch and mountebank theres almost no opportunity cost to grabbing these.  Familiar has a higher one, but if there are no other plus actions, you just load up on familiar, and very quickly they are net +10 cards in their deck if they dont fight back.  Sea hag is maybe border line since its so slow.  I would maybe only grab that if I had an end goal of building an engine.  In general the more engin-ish your goal, the more cursers you want, but you rarely want to forgot them completely.

masque is a pretty hard counter to sea hag.  I'll occasoinally skip hag when masque is out for that reason.
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DG

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Re: Reason enough to skip Mountebank?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 07:21:44 pm »
0

It's the same old simulator. I had to ditch chrome and use firefox once I'd got a new PC. 64 bit java complications perhaps.
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