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Author Topic: Apothecary  (Read 14411 times)

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theParty

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Apothecary
« on: September 01, 2011, 07:28:04 pm »
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Note – I just saw that Mean Mr. Mustard put up a post about Apothecary as well, particularly in its interaction with Vault, so my apologies if anything in here is redundant, though from my brief reading of his post, I don’t think there is a ton of overlap.  Hopefully this looks at some different interactions that the card has, as I have seen very little discussion of it.  What are the chances of 2 posts in the same day?  Anyway…..

Apothecary is a card that I often see overlooked in kingdoms despite its unique capabilities.  While Scrying Pool is something that people can easily see building around, Apothecary never gets this type of treatment, though it has some excellent pairings that can enable some power engines.  Like other cards with some nuance, it must be used correctly, and takes some more planning than most cards.

Apothecary essentially has 2 abilities – drawing out treasures that clog, and reorganizing your deck in order to play your next card or next hand the way you want.  The first ability is obvious, though copper based strategies are often tough to make work against straight big money/big money+.  Apothecary really can work quite well with coppersmith, and if you don’t buy many other cards to clog, you can pretty assuredly purchase a province every time you have an apothecary + coppersmith (and of course, because of the reorganization of your deck, will get this combo more often than other 2 card combos.  I don’t have the ability to run it on a simulator or know how to do that (and this seems to be a hard card to program?), but I’d be curious how it would perform.  I’ve played the combo with real cards (not on isotropic) so I don’t have a log for it.  This, of course, works much better on a board with poor, or no trashing.

Apothecary’s reorganizing of decks is really a much more powerful thing.  The simplest form of this is that, it can put the card you want on top for your +1/+1 card to draw.  First, it can be a tremendous combination with Hunting Party.  Draw a card, then reorganize your deck so you will draw it the way you want and discard the things you want to discard (i.e. draw the gold instead of discarding it because you already have one in your hand).  One of the most frustrating things about HP is that it can discard great cards because you already have one – Apothecary can solve this problem by putting it first, and then stuff your coppers and estates behind them so they get skipped over.

Torturer chains can be the most frustrating part of dominion, seem to give a huge edge to the first player to get theirs going first, and have such a high variance due to the luck of drawing things in proper order.  Apothecary cut this variance.  I recently played a game where Apothecary was the reason that I won because I was able to set up a torturer chain much quicker and more importantly, much more reliably by setting up the order of the following cards, and won’t end up with 3 villages, no torturers (and then 2-3 torturers with no village).  This obviously works with any drawing card combination, but it is most important with torturer.  You’ll have to weigh the opportunity cost of buying the potion instead of just another village, but if you get a couple apothecaries in your deck, you will be in a much better position to draw your cards in the correct order and do the same on subsequent turns. 

edit: as per Rod's comment.Apothecary can also mitigate against swindler attacks/jester attacks and anything else that look at the top of your deck and mess with it.  If you’re not going to be drawing anything else after you play your apothecary, leave the estate on the top, and let your opponent swindle it into another estate.  Is your opponent jestering?  Leave a silver on top and give him the most annoying of all choices when playing a Jester – who should gain the silver??
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 08:56:30 am by theParty »
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rod-

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 07:36:05 pm »
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Apothecary can also mitigate against swindler attacks/jester attacks and anything else that look at the top of your deck and mess with it.
This section is mistaken.  By the time your turn is over, you've drawn your next hand, so whatever you put on top is in your hand, not on top.
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Epoch

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 07:41:28 pm »
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Apothecary can solve this problem by putting it first, and then stuff your coppers and estates behind them so they get skipped over.

One imagines that after playing Apothecary, your coppers are in your hand.

Also:  with Hunting Party in play, is it really the case that buying Potion/Apothecary is a good deal versus just buying more Hunting Parties and/or good, relatively unique Hunting Party targets?  Apothecary seems like one of those cards that's classically...  good to have in your deck, but just not usually worth the opportunity cost to actually buy.
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biopower

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 01:14:50 am »
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You missed lots of cards Apothecary interacts with awesomely: Goons, Native Village, and Bank
See this post. Rearrangement allows pseudotrashing of green cards with native village, as stated in the post, which prevents deck clogging.

Later in that thread, thisisnotasmile mentions goons, which lets you buy coppers for VP without fear of clogging.

Bank is self explanatory. Of course you need +Buys, but you generally want +Buys to use with Apothecary anyway to get the extra copper so you're not stuck at $7 in copper.

I'm not completely convinced the rearrangement ability is as awesome as you say. Regardless of order, your next hand will consist of the same cards, so it only improves cantrips and the like, and rearrangement power trades off with putting-coppers-in-hand-power: you don't get to rearrange the next 4 cards unless there are no coppers in them, and if there are no coppers, then a good part of Apothecary's ability is wasted. On the other hand, if you draw lots of coppers from Apothecary, you might only get to rearrange two cards or none at all, which isn't an amazing benefit.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:41:29 am by biopower »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 03:04:19 am »
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Also on the awesome interaction list: warehouse, wishing well. Both can be bought with potion on the opening buy and work quite nicely with the apothecary. Warehouse because of the large hand-size and wishing well because of the scout ability.

Counting house is also a possibility, though I'm not quite sure. It kind of makes it okay to buy copper, and apothecary makes the copper spend less time in the deck (and thus more in the discard). The scout ability can also allow you to choose to take a counting house now or next turn (provided you have another draw), so you can get it in before a reshuffle or delay it to closer to the next shuffle.
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timchen

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2011, 02:02:57 am »
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It would be interesting if someone can cook up a recipe for an Apothecary-based copper strategy. In my experience, the problem of the copper strategy is that it is just hard to ramp up. You are killing your apothecary power at the same time when you get the good cards. Sticking with the starting 7/8 coppers can only last you through the first couple of Provinces.
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DG

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 07:25:20 am »
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Quote
You are killing your apothecary power at the same time when you get the good cards. Sticking with the starting 7/8 coppers can only last you through the first couple of Provinces.
Exactly. There's a lot of complexity within the apothecary. Even adding extra apothecaries to your deck can weaken the drawing power each individual apothecary you've already got.
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biopower

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2011, 12:34:15 pm »
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Exactly. There's a lot of complexity within the apothecary. Even adding extra apothecaries to your deck can weaken the drawing power each individual apothecary you've already got.

What would be the ideal copper to apothecary/other card ratio? Let's assume there's some good source of +Buys so that you can have as many copper as ideally possible.
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DG

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 12:52:52 pm »
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There are lots of ways to play the apothecary but often you'll start by drawing coppers+potion and by the end game use it more for deck control. In other words I don't think there is any perfect ratio as the use of the card changes along with any changes in the deck.
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chwhite

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2011, 08:00:52 pm »
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Apothecary has plenty of useful uses, and I buy it more than I ought to trying to figure them out.  Basically, what it does is manage to both make your current hand better (by adding Coppers) and make your next hand better (by removing Coppers).  What Apothecary wants more than anything, then, is some sort of trash-for-benefit that junks your Estates but doesn't really work on Coppers so well.  The deck rearrangement can also be useful, and Apothecary/Wishing Well is an actual strong combo in a way that Scout/Wishing Well can't even pretend to be.

Most importantly, it is also the single best companion to Coppersmith: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110411-202217-f1a5dd18.html
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chesskidnate

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 09:05:45 pm »
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by the way, heres a setup where apothecary/coppersmith shines to an amazing extent(my opponent wasn't that good but still turn 14 is pretty good for getting 5 provinces and a duchy+estate):  http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110828-212422-8a5246fc.html  Edit: looking at the game again, I got incredibly lucky to draw into my apothecary on turn 4 with the warehouse but I think my strat was still sound, probably should've gotten a second warehouse and maybe a third instead of some of the caravans
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 09:13:04 pm by chesskidnate »
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 10:08:41 pm »
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Indeed, if you can quickly remove the starting Estates Apothecary become very strong.  I may overplay this card myself, but it seems to really accelerate many decks in a way that is really subtle.

I like to match it with any +1A/+1C.  Basically you can choose what cards to use and which to save for the next hand, making Apothecary very useful even if you manage to remove all the Coppers.

Honestly, there have been times when I saw Apothecary, thought it was an Alchemist and bought an opening potion.  Having then realized I was committed to a different card then I had expected I went ahead and bought them anyway.  This has happened to me a couple of times in the last couple of weeks.  Usually this is a fatal mistake, but it really shows the versatility of this card because I did not lose those games.
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biopower

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Re: Apothecary
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 07:57:59 pm »
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One more card that Apothecary synergizes really well with is Farming Village. Deck Greening will severly clog apothecary engines in the endgame, and will prevent you from pulling up a ton of copper. Rearranging all the green to the front lets farming village skip them and hit better cards.
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