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[GendoIkari]

I think there might be a thread about this already... but I had a dream last night that I was playing with a new card that had just been released...

[Don't remember the name]
$4 Action
During your cleanup phase this turn, draw an extra card.

So yeah... it's a really terrible Caravan. Instead of +1 card +1 action, you get the extra card in hand during your opponents' turns. A benefit if you have reaction cards in your deck, or against Mountebank or Young Witch, because you're more likely to have the defense card in hand when they play an attack. But a major draw-back if they have any hand-size reduction attacks.

Also, it should be a Duration, because even though it doesn't affect your next turn, it affects the cleanup phase, after it would have otherwise been discarded, basically just like Outpost.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Also, it should be a Duration, because even though it doesn't affect your next turn, it affects the cleanup phase, after it would have otherwise been discarded, basically just like Outpost.

Like Scheme? Herbalist? Alchemist? Treasury?

[LastFootnote]

Also, it should be a Duration, because even though it doesn't affect your next turn, it affects the cleanup phase, after it would have otherwise been discarded, basically just like Outpost.

Like Scheme? Herbalist? Alchemist? Treasury?

Those all activate when you discard those cards from play. This would occur after you discard all cards from play.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Those all activate when you discard those cards from play. This would occur after you discard all cards from play.

This is true. These things all happen in the Clean-up phase, though.

My point was that a card doesn't need to be a duration to affect things later in the same turn, even in a different phase. Really, even if there was an action card that said "in ten turns, gain a Province", it would do its thing, even though it wasn't in play at that point, the same way a Processioned Bridge still reduces costs.

[GendoIkari]

Those all activate when you discard those cards from play. This would occur after you discard all cards from play.

This is true. These things all happen in the Clean-up phase, though.

My point was that a card doesn't need to be a duration to affect things later in the same turn, even in a different phase. Really, even if there was an action card that said "in ten turns, gain a Province", it would do its thing, even though it wasn't in play at that point, the same way a Processioned Bridge still reduces costs.

It is true that things don't have to be in play to take effect in the future (if you Procession a Duration card, it will be in the trash, but still activate next turn). Also, Possession changes things that happen after it leaves play. But I think Donald said that the reason Possession isn't Duration is that Possession is part of a different set that doesn't have Durations... so it if were in Seaside, it would be Duration.

Basically, Duration cards stay out mostly to remind you that you need to do something, but also to stop you from playing them 2 turns in a row. Crappy-Caravan is worded almost the same as Outpost, so I assume it would be Duration if it existed.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Crappy-Caravan is worded almost the same as Outpost, so I assume it would be Duration if it existed.

But the part that happens on a different turn, the part that is Duration-y about Outpost, is the part that Crapavan doesn't have.

If you play an Outpost on an Outpost turn, you draw 3 cards during Clean-up, but you also discard the Outpost, because it isn't affecting any future turns. Or maybe I'm wrong, and you don't discard the Outpost, because you haven't drawn your new hand yet? I remember there was a thread where Donald X. specified, but I forget.

[GendoIkari]

Crappy-Caravan is worded almost the same as Outpost, so I assume it would be Duration if it existed.

But the part that happens on a different turn, the part that is Duration-y about Outpost, is the part that Crapavan doesn't have.

If you play an Outpost on an Outpost turn, you draw 3 cards during Clean-up, but you also discard the Outpost, because it isn't affecting any future turns. Or maybe I'm wrong, and you don't discard the Outpost, because you haven't drawn your new hand yet? I remember there was a thread where Donald X. specified, but I forget.

This is incorrect. Outpost doesn't do anything at all on your next turn. The effect that makes Outpost a Duration is specifically that it makes you draw only 3 cards, which happens after you would have discarded Outpost otherwise (so Outpost should stay out to remind you to only draw 3).

Here's the thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1585

[Drab Emordnilap]

Side question:

Outpost does something after it would otherwise be discarded. So it stays out because it's still doing something.

Isn't this true for Scheme also? I mean, you can choose to do it the other way, but there's nothing stopping you from choosing Woodcutter at the beginning of clean-up, discarding Scheme, and then cleaning up Woodcutter, is there?

[GendoIkari]

Side question:

Outpost does something after it would otherwise be discarded. So it stays out because it's still doing something.

Isn't this true for Scheme also? I mean, you can choose to do it the other way, but there's nothing stopping you from choosing Woodcutter at the beginning of clean-up, discarding Scheme, and then cleaning up Woodcutter, is there?

Yeah, I think you're right. Scheme has everything set up to do what is going to happen before it leaves play, but it's true that by the time you would return another card to your deck, Scheme might be cleaned up already, so you lose that reminder. Really, it's similar to Embargo. Embargo does something long after you play it... it makes it so that when you buy a card, you gain a Curse for each Embargo token on the pile. There might be no Embargos to be seen by the time that happens.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Really, it's similar to Embargo. Embargo does something long after you play it... it makes it so that when you buy a card, you gain a Curse for each Embargo token on the pile. There might be no Embargos to be seen by the time that happens.

Now I think Embargo is worded wrong. Usually, cards with triggers below a horizontal line tell you where they trigger from. Embargo apparently either triggers from everywhere or not at all! I think Embargo should probably get the "In games using this" wording that Duchess has. The way it's worded now, if I Embargo Golds twice, and you buy a Gold, one could say that you gain four Curses, because each of the two Embargoes in the trash triggers twice. (That's obviously not how it's supposed to work.)

Another card on the errata pile with Nomad Camp and Noble Brigand! 

[GendoIkari]

Really, it's similar to Embargo. Embargo does something long after you play it... it makes it so that when you buy a card, you gain a Curse for each Embargo token on the pile. There might be no Embargos to be seen by the time that happens.

Now I think Embargo is worded wrong. Usually, cards with triggers below a horizontal line tell you where they trigger from. Embargo apparently either triggers from everywhere or not at all! I think Embargo should probably get the "In games using this" wording that Duchess has. The way it's worded now, if I Embargo Golds twice, and you buy a Gold, one could say that you gain four Curses, because each of the two Embargoes in the trash triggers twice. (That's obviously not how it's supposed to work.)

Another card on the errata pile with Nomad Camp and Noble Brigand! 

Good point. I know it was discussed before that perhaps Embargo tokens by the very rules of the game cause you to gain curses, and the text on the Embargo card is just a reminder about that rule. But the "in games using this" wording would be good there.

[SirPeebles]

But Scheme isn't a Duration card.  The rule is specifically that Duration cards stay out until the last turn that they do something.  If a card said "This turn and next, +1 Card", but this card didn't have the Duration type, then it would still effect your next turn, it just wouldn't stay in play.  Or at least that's how I read things.  I guess I'm saying that you don't need to have Duration to impact the late phase portion of clean-up.  My understanding is that the only impact of having the Duration type is whether or not the card evades discard during clean-up or not.  Oh, and whether cards modifying it evade as well.

[SirPeebles]

Really, it's similar to Embargo. Embargo does something long after you play it... it makes it so that when you buy a card, you gain a Curse for each Embargo token on the pile. There might be no Embargos to be seen by the time that happens.

Now I think Embargo is worded wrong. Usually, cards with triggers below a horizontal line tell you where they trigger from. Embargo apparently either triggers from everywhere or not at all! I think Embargo should probably get the "In games using this" wording that Duchess has. The way it's worded now, if I Embargo Golds twice, and you buy a Gold, one could say that you gain four Curses, because each of the two Embargoes in the trash triggers twice. (That's obviously not how it's supposed to work.)

Another card on the errata pile with Nomad Camp and Noble Brigand! 

KC-KC-Emargo-Embargo on Feodum, buy Feodum, Reveal Trader 36 times.

[GendoIkari]

But Scheme isn't a Duration card.  The rule is specifically that Duration cards stay out until the last turn that they do something.  If a card said "This turn and next, +1 Card", but this card didn't have the Duration type, then it would still effect your next turn, it just wouldn't stay in play.  Or at least that's how I read things.  I guess I'm saying that you don't need to have Duration to impact the late phase portion of clean-up.  My understanding is that the only impact of having the Duration type is whether or not the card evades discard during clean-up or not.  Oh, and whether cards modifying it evade as well.

This is correct. No card "needs" to have "Duration" to affect things after they leave play. This question was really about whether or not terrible-Caravan "should" have the Duration type if it were being made into a real card. And I'm saying that it should, because it it basically like a cross between Caravan and Outpost in terms of functionality. It would still work just fine without "Duration."

[Dubdubdubdub]

KC-KC-Emargo-Embargo on Feodum, buy Feodum, Reveal Trader 36 times.

I love this idea... but 36?

[Tables]

KC-KC-Emargo-Embargo on Feodum, buy Feodum, Reveal Trader 36 times.

I love this idea... but 36?

You should really quote the entire context here.

...The way it's worded now, if I Embargo Golds twice, and you buy a Gold, one could say that you gain four Curses, because each of the two Embargoes in the trash triggers twice. (That's obviously not how it's supposed to work.)

KC-KC-Emargo-Embargo on Feodum, buy Feodum, Reveal Trader 36 times.

But even then, maybe you did realise that, because it should be 18 times, not 36 (each Embargo token counts three times due to KC)

[SirPeebles]

There would be six tokens on Feodum, and six plays of Embargo.  With Drab's alternate interpretation, each play of Embargo says I should receive 6 curses -- one for each token on the Feodum pile.  That adds up to 36 curses.

Edit:  Maybe more than 36.  Reading Embargo again, it seems that I ought to gain six curses for each play of Embargo thus far this game, and not only for the plays of Embargo which resulted in placing a token on Feodum.  That is, if you Embargoed Gold, and now I KC-KC-Embargo-Embargo Feodum, I should gain 6*7 = 42 curses.