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Author Topic: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?  (Read 21233 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 03:14:45 pm »
+1

I think storeroom is excellent. It's great in engines with no trashing, it helps the deck cycling and have a lot of combos (menagerie, philosopher's stone...)

I don't played with Rogue much, but it seems more powerful than what Beyond Awesome says. I don't understand the comparison with thief since thief only steal treasures...

I compared it to Thief because most of the time, Rogue hits Silver. Okay, that is better than Thief since that mostly hits copper in the beginning, helping your opponent, but hitting his silver and then having to wait until the next reshuffle isn't that impressive. I guess against some decks Rogue is okay like if there are a lot of engine components you need that your opponent has.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2012, 03:26:36 pm »
+1

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.
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clb

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2012, 05:21:33 pm »
+1

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.

The implication here is that Rogue, like Pirate Ship and Thief/NB, plays much differently in 4P than in 2P. Typically, Rogue looks gimicky, but sometimes I am very jealous of the loot coming out of the trash. Of course, the best scenario is playing multiple Rogues in a turn or a Rogue after some other TfB. Otherwise, you risk others grabbing your cards.
The last deck I saw with Rogue, I was going double-Tac with Forager (Platinum, Quarry, and Stash on the board to sweeten the deal). I traashed a Gold to get Forager up to $4. Before I got my next turn to use it again, a Rogue stole the Gold from the trash, reverting the Forager to $3.
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Insomniac

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012, 05:37:33 pm »
+1

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.

The implication here is that Rogue, like Pirate Ship and Thief/NB, plays much differently in 4P than in 2P. Typically, Rogue looks gimicky, but sometimes I am very jealous of the loot coming out of the trash. Of course, the best scenario is playing multiple Rogues in a turn or a Rogue after some other TfB. Otherwise, you risk others grabbing your cards.
The last deck I saw with Rogue, I was going double-Tac with Forager (Platinum, Quarry, and Stash on the board to sweeten the deal). I traashed a Gold to get Forager up to $4. Before I got my next turn to use it again, a Rogue stole the Gold from the trash, reverting the Forager to $3.

At a local tourney in a multiplayer game a guy played a rogue trashing a duchy of mine and a duchy of another opponent, he played two rogues to steal both the duchies and bought a province...The result...he got first beating me by 6 points, or the swing you get from stealing a duchy
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ftl

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012, 05:38:58 pm »
+1

Rogue being a terminal Silver makes it a lot better, too. If you have a turn and just play a Rogue, trashing a silver, you don't feel like you've lost any buying power.
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ipofanes

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2012, 04:16:28 am »
+1

Otherwise, you risk others grabbing "your" cards.
FTFY
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ipofanes

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2012, 05:13:57 am »
+2

To put it out there, Rebuild is an impressive albeit soft counter to ambassador.

If we play with Estates in starting deck, that is. Rebuilt Hovels take some effort until they look prestigious.
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brokoli

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2012, 07:42:05 am »
+1

I just found an interesting combo : Graverobber-Treasury.
The idea is to take 1 graverobber and rush on treasuries.
Play all treasuries except the one that you'll expand to province (with graverobber).
Then buy another treasury, and put them all on top of your deck...
And When you don't have treasury to trash, just play graverobber to gain a treasury from the trash.
The only problem is that your opponent may gain treasuries from the trash too !

To put it out there, Rebuild is an impressive albeit soft counter to ambassador.

If we play with Estates in starting deck, that is. Rebuilt Hovels take some effort until they look prestigious.

You mean overgrown estate, I guess ? ^^

Also, rebuild is probably the best counter to duke.
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ipofanes

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2012, 08:03:02 am »
0

I just found an interesting combo : Graverobber-Treasury.
The idea is to take 1 graverobber and rush on treasuries.
Play all treasuries except the one that you'll expand to province (with graverobber).
Then buy another treasury, and put them all on top of your deck...
And When you don't have treasury to trash, just play graverobber to gain a treasury from the trash.
The only problem is that your opponent may gain treasuries from the trash too !
Thanks for that! I am a sucker for Treasuries. Especially with King's Court, as KC has very likely a target then, and with Menagerie, as you have one less slot to destroy your variety in hand.


Quote
You mean overgrown estate, I guess ? ^^

Yes, of course. I forgot that Hovel is not a Victory card. For me, Dark Ages have not been out for that long yet.
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ftl

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2012, 10:59:06 am »
+1

If shelters are out, they already counter ambassador.
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sandstorm

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 01:24:13 am »
0

A few random thoughts on Shelters and others

- Golem and Farming Village do not mix with Necropolis and Ruins.  Scrying Pool and Vineyard on the other hand ...

- Great Hall/Silver (Trash Hovel) is a strong opening.  In fact I believe it is the first opening in Dominion history to guarantee a hand of at least 5 coin on turns 3 or 4. (Barring IGG/Noble Brigand/edge cases).  See Hovel Secret History for further hints at its strength

- Count is awesome at a lot of things but especially Scrying Pool and Watchtower style engines

- This is probably the wrong place for dominion wiki feedback (Wiki looks great!) but in the Hovel article it says that it antisynergizes (probably not a word) with Chapel or other strong trashers because you can't use the reaction.  This seems wrong to me since I'm guessing about 99% of boards where opening Chapel is the right decision when starting with Estates it is also the right decision when starting with Shelters.  Remake might not be wise but that is because of the 1 cost not the inability to use the reaction.  The reaction is just another way to remove the card from your deck.  I would say strong trashers have no synergy with Hovel not antisynergy.

- Lastly, if you have ever raged when your Wharf has been swindled to a Duchy and you swindled your opponents Estate into an Estate.  Wait until you swindle their Shelter into nothing.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 01:28:28 am »
0

A few random thoughts on Shelters and others

- Golem and Farming Village do not mix with Necropolis and Ruins.  Scrying Pool and Vineyard on the other hand ...

- Great Hall/Silver (Trash Hovel) is a strong opening.  In fact I believe it is the first opening in Dominion history to guarantee a hand of at least 5 coin on turns 3 or 4. (Barring IGG/Noble Brigand/edge cases).  See Hovel Secret History for further hints at its strength

- Count is awesome at a lot of things but especially Scrying Pool and Watchtower style engines

- This is probably the wrong place for dominion wiki feedback (Wiki looks great!) but in the Hovel article it says that it antisynergizes (probably not a word) with Chapel or other strong trashers because you can't use the reaction.  This seems wrong to me since I'm guessing about 99% of boards where opening Chapel is the right decision when starting with Estates it is also the right decision when starting with Shelters.  Remake might not be wise but that is because of the 1 cost not the inability to use the reaction.  The reaction is just another way to remove the card from your deck.  I would say strong trashers have no synergy with Hovel not antisynergy.

- Lastly, if you have ever raged when your Wharf has been swindled to a Duchy and you swindled your opponents Estate into an Estate.  Wait until you swindle their Shelter into nothing.

Count is awesome--period!

And, better yet, swindle their overgrown estate into nothing and have them draw a card.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 03:50:02 am »
0

I will say this, having played more games with Marauder, it is a top tier $4 card for sure. At first, I didn't think it was that strong due to Ruins not being as bad as curses and it not hitting the top of the deck like Sea Hag, but getting that Spoils every reshuffle on a $4 card makes up for the fact it hands out Ruins. I believe that Marauder is one of the three best $4 cards along with Sea Hag an JoaT. I am pretty sure of this now.
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ipofanes

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 05:04:28 am »
0

I will say this, having played more games with Marauder, it is a top tier $4 card for sure. At first, I didn't think it was that strong due to Ruins not being as bad as curses and it not hitting the top of the deck like Sea Hag, but getting that Spoils every reshuffle on a $4 card makes up for the fact it hands out Ruins. I believe that Marauder is one of the three best $4 cards along with Sea Hag an JoaT. I am pretty sure of this now.

I don't even know if Cursing is much better than Ruining. As the pile of Ruins is near undepletable, at least in 2P games, a ruining Sea Hag without TfB is still of good use after Turn 25. Granted, you won't see her very frequently anymore :-)
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hsiale

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2012, 05:15:18 am »
+2

You use only 10 Ruins in a two player game. It's exactly the same rule as with Curses - 10 for each player except the first one.
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ipofanes

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2012, 11:03:40 am »
0

You use only 10 Ruins in a two player game. It's exactly the same rule as with Curses - 10 for each player except the first one.

Thanks! I must have overlooked this in the rules for some reason.

I suck at rules not enforced by isotropic.

Yet Marauder > Sea Hag.
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brokoli

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2012, 11:34:28 am »
+1

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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 05:57:08 pm »
0

Could anybody give me some feasible scenarios where Lookout still outclasses Forager? Non-terminal trashing for that price is pretty good, but Forager gives +$ (sometimes a lot), +buy ánd control over what it is you're trashing. All Lookout gives in return is a slightly larger handsize and a bit of cycling. Right?

Oh, and to chime in on the Rogue discussion: it (obviously) combo's incredibly with Feodum. Graverobber will do, but Rogue gives +$2 to buy silvers and new Feodums.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 03:46:11 am by Dubdubdubdub »
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jsh357

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2012, 06:00:29 pm »
+1

I would say Lookout can top Forager in several situations.  First, it trashes a card outside of your hand.  Second, it directly eliminates Curses from Sea Hag and can help you against Ghost Ship.  The cycling is not always that big a deal but can be.  Forager is a great trasher too, but I'd take Lookout in some circumstances still, even though it's one of my least favorite trashers.
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DG

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2012, 06:28:23 pm »
+1

Quote
All Lookout gives in return is a slightly larger handsize and a bit of cycling. Right?

You get a noticable benefit when you can play the lookout then draw the top card into hand in the same turn. A cartographer is worth 5 coins for selecting the best cards from the top of the deck and the lookout does something similar.
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sandstorm

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 09:12:43 pm »
+1

I think there are more times when Lookout is preferred to Forager than when Trade Route is preferred to Forager.  Trade Route is to Forager what Thief is to Noble Brigand.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 09:25:29 pm by sandstorm »
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2012, 03:48:45 am »
+1

@DG and jsh: definitely good points. I never thought I would just find silent agreement on this forum :) Especially the Cartographer/Scout/Apothecary etc. functionality DG mentioned can be very strong.
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aaron0013

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2012, 07:43:03 am »
0

Finally got DA irl yesterday!  So happy ;D

Found a combo that seemed to work pretty well: Graverobber/Rats/Nobles.  Of course, Nobles can be substituted for any high cost action card, but it helped with my engine draw (Mining Villages are awesome in Graverobber games) and it also got me ahead on VP.

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)
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brokoli

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2012, 08:08:12 am »
0

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)

Remodel seems better for purpose...
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aaron0013

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Re: Now that Dark Ages has been out for a while...Thoughts on cards?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2012, 08:19:23 am »
0

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)

Remodel seems better for purpose...

Very true unless your high card cost 7, or you want to turn your Graverobbers into Provinces, or you want to get your Nobles out of the trash after turning them to Provinces...
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