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Powerman

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2012, 11:34:01 pm »
+1

Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.

Thank you, finally another voice of reason. Not to mention that you have almost no chance of getting TWO fives turn 3 and 4, which what, maybe 10-15% of games if you open silver/silver? To get two fives with bishop-silver, you need to draw them together along with one estate and two copper, have a hand of five copper, and have the two estates in your last two cards. That's got to be sub-percent level.

What 5's are you really going to want to pick up 2 of turn 3 and 4, if you also wanted to open a Bishop?

Plus, that's no different than say... remake or any other trasher.  ALL of those cards give up slight early buying power in order to have superior buying power later.  Here, while the "trash" benefit might be equal, the pay off benefit between the two players isn't.  If your opponent has SCCCC when you play your bishop, sure they can trash a copper, but then they give up gold.  So, it's not as simple as "You won't get two 5's"
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ipofanes

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 05:47:43 am »
+3

particularly after Prosperity was released.

Well, I am sure you had an immaculate rate against Bishops before that.
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DrFlux

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 10:41:15 am »
0

Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.

Thank you, finally another voice of reason. Not to mention that you have almost no chance of getting TWO fives turn 3 and 4, which what, maybe 10-15% of games if you open silver/silver? To get two fives with bishop-silver, you need to draw them together along with one estate and two copper, have a hand of five copper, and have the two estates in your last two cards. That's got to be sub-percent level.

What 5's are you really going to want to pick up 2 of turn 3 and 4, if you also wanted to open a Bishop?

Plus, that's no different than say... remake or any other trasher.  ALL of those cards give up slight early buying power in order to have superior buying power later.  Here, while the "trash" benefit might be equal, the pay off benefit between the two players isn't.  If your opponent has SCCCC when you play your bishop, sure they can trash a copper, but then they give up gold.  So, it's not as simple as "You won't get two 5's"

I DON'T want to open bishop. I don't even care if I pick it up till turn 6 in many cases. And you CANNOT compare bishop to other trashers, because it also lets your opponent trash. Opening with it DOES NOT give you better buying power (than your opponent) later. Steward lets you trash 2 cards, for instance, which is completely different than trashing 1 estate, and letting your opponent trash an estate too (and 2 VP). For the first one I'm willing to take a hit in the number of 5's I hit, for the second, I'm not. Opening bishop gives you VP advantage, NOT deck advantage.

5's where I would want 2 of, turns 3 and 4: Wharf, Minion, Stables, Laboratory, Hunting party. I'm sure there are others, but those come to mind. Particularly with something like wharf, the extra buys will make it easy to buy a bishop later.

Sometimes I'll even just skip the bishop for a good 4: say ironworks is on the board, I'd rather start with ironworks for cheap engine pieces, and then use the ironworks later to gain a bishop, then bishop fuel. Or start caravan, trying to hit 6 for hoard, buying bishops later.

I just think getting your engine going is often more important than the few piddly points you gain from a bishop opening.

I'm not saying its always clear cut. To be honest, a case like minion - with no other trashing, and say a village as well, and no extra buys: its a close call. I just still think, even in that case, that opening silver/silver is ever so slightly better.

Mostly I think people just go on autopilot and open bishop, and its wrong much more often than people think.
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DrFlux

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 10:47:14 am »
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I would comment, that if something breaks the symmetry of trashing between you and your opponent, it does make bishop better, specifically cards that depend on estates.

If your opponent buys trader/baron/salvager/remodel, they are looking to trash estates. This does make opening bishop slightly better, assuming I don't want any of those other cards. Of course this doesn't really work for remake/steward/ambassador, because they probably aren't going to buy anything the turn they draw those cards, so the copper trashing is still free.
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jomini

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 11:35:17 am »
0

Bishop will antisynergize with Highway because you'll likely have to play some to get Bishop + trashed card in hand. Also probably true for some, but not all, Bridge strategies.

The Golden Deck definition in the article is really narrow. In general, a deck that relies on Victory cards for scoring will decline in potency as the game drags on during the greening phase. Bishop lets you avoid that, either by providing you a means to victory without Victory cards or by supplementing your score without clogging your deck.

You also don't need to have a 5-card deck to have what is effectively a Golden Deck. You just need to be able to draw your deck (or enough of it) every turn, Bishop a green card, and buy it back.

Bishop only anti-synergizes with cost reducers if you must play the Hwy/Brg/Princess/Quarry before the Bish. The obvious counterexample is a reliable Scrying Pool deck (e.g. Scheme, Scavenger, Haven). You draw everything, play your villages to play Bish, and then do your cost reduction to gain cards for next time. This limits you to action cards, but that can have a higher payout than going for a golden deck. If you can reasonably draw your target cards (villages, Bish, expensive junk) without needing the +card from Hwy, then Hwy isn't going to muck up Bish. Each Hwy is multiplied by the number of buys you intend to use, once you are using 3 buys Hwy is strictly better than gold in a Bish deck. This can allow you to keep building for more reliability and more payout - letting you have a better (though still crummy) shot at winning if you fall behind in the Hwy race.


I'd go so far to say that MOST Brg decks can't anti-synergize with Bish in this manner. Golem, Menage, the odd Tr/Kc/Prssn deck, and Limited draw can all require you to play a Brg early, but otherwise, you just Bish whatever it is you want to toss and only play your Brg's after you're done playing Bish. Really, play your villages, then your draw, then Bish everything, and then lastly play cost reduction. Quarry is, of course, even better at not anti-synergizing (as only Black Market is an issue).

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dondon151

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 02:44:59 pm »
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Completely disagree with the above post. You will very often be required to play the Highway to draw your entire deck, not draw your entire deck and then play Highway. You'd have to have an extremely overbuilt deck for the latter to happen. Furthermore, if you have that much buying/gaining power in your deck, then why hasn't the game already ended in a Province or Duchy megaturn by either player?

Quarry works because the cost reduction necessarily comes after the action phase (but having to trash Actions is a pretty weak move unless there are a lot of $6+ Actions in the kingdom or ways to get huge handsizes and play tons of Bishops on cheaper Actions). Bridge and Princess work except for when using a draw up to X engine. But Highway only works if you're playing against someone who clearly doesn't know what he's doing.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2012, 03:20:55 pm »
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In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.

I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.

And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).
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jomini

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2012, 04:05:51 pm »
0


Completely disagree with the above post. You will very often be required to play the Highway to draw your entire deck, not draw your entire deck and then play Highway. You'd have to have an extremely overbuilt deck for the latter to happen. Furthermore, if you have that much buying/gaining power in your deck, then why hasn't the game already ended in a Province or Duchy megaturn by either player?

Quarry works because the cost reduction necessarily comes after the action phase (but having to trash Actions is a pretty weak move unless there are a lot of $6+ Actions in the kingdom or ways to get huge handsizes and play tons of Bishops on cheaper Actions). Bridge and Princess work except for when using a draw up to X engine. But Highway only works if you're playing against someone who clearly doesn't know what he's doing.

You completely disagree? Really. You disagree that Bridge or Princess can't simply be played after the Bishops? You disagree that Hwy is strictly better than gold if the cost reduction is going to be used on 3 +buys? You disagree that there are extremely reliable setups (like Scrying pool/Scheme) where the draw on Hwy really is superfluous? You seriously doubt that if you can reliably draw your villages/Bish/targets without using the +cards on Hwy that it works? That seems odd.

I'm not saying that Hwy must combo with Bish, but that it, under some circumstances, can combo with it. Yeah, I get, if you have +buys, and good reliable draw you can start hitting double or treble Hwy turns and then megaturn the Provinces/Duchies ... however not every setup allows for that. Talisman and Hop can both allow you to keep churning out golds or plats to Bish, but can't work with green cards. You can play +buy denial (particularly with some cheap +buy like Hamlet) and leave the opponent with only 3-4 buys ... and a deck where he can't hit a province the next turn if he megaturns now. Other options - like Swindler, Masq, or Rabble can make it hard for the opponent to seal the deal. Bish opens a lot of strategy space because the third victory condition (owning half the possible VP) never arrives. The Bish player can just keep dragging out the game longer and longer in hopes of overcoming an early deficit.

In any event, the simplest case is when you pull Hwy out of the Black market deck. With only one Hwy in play, but multiple Bish firing, you find that it synergizes quite well and an optional lack of +1 card isn't too terrible.

Yeah, we get Hwy (and heck Brg) will OFTEN have better megaturn than Bish strategies. So what?  Chapel stands a phenomenal chance of allowing you to pair it with a strong attack/fast megaturn setup, Iw can play rushing with Gardens, Silk Roads, or possibly even Feoda/Fairgrounds, gainers (like say Hop) can work wonders in megaturn decks. The point is, cost reduction does work with Bish in a way that is more than the sum of the two cards. It isn't the strongest, most obvious combo, but we should be talking about combos that aren't blindingly obvious. Nobody really needs help spotting chapel/Bishop or Kc/Bridge/Lab, subtler things are worth talking about.

Running around with a deck that can trash two 4 coin cards each turn is better than a Golden deck. Running 3 & 4 Bish either directly or off Tr/Prssn/Kc is even stronger and we do people a disservice by not pointing out that this is possible and when it can/should be done. Cost reduction can be a big plus for making it viable to build up to monster VP gain each turn, but it also increases the chances that a fast megaturn or 3-pile rush will win the game ... it is worthwhile to consider both sides of that equation.

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DrFlux

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2012, 09:50:38 am »
0

In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.

I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.

And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).

Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal

However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).
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Powerman

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2012, 10:02:16 am »
0

In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.

I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.

And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).

Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal

However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).

But if you open with a bishop, you obviously don't want 2 wharves Turn 3 and 4 anyway.  And in the case of Minion, the early thinning is important enough that you want to start ASAP.  And HP?  An HP deck doesn't need trashing anyway, so that example's false.  And lab?  Early labs aren't that strong anyway.

I really can't think of a case where I want a Bishop, but I don't want it turn 1/2 because I want two 5's turn 3 and 4.  So the fact that you can't reach 5 both turn 3 and 4 isn't a big deal.
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DrFlux

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2012, 10:53:21 am »
0

In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.

I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.

And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).

Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal

However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).

But if you open with a bishop, you obviously don't want 2 wharves Turn 3 and 4 anyway.  And in the case of Minion, the early thinning is important enough that you want to start ASAP.  And HP?  An HP deck doesn't need trashing anyway, so that example's false.  And lab?  Early labs aren't that strong anyway.

I really can't think of a case where I want a Bishop, but I don't want it turn 1/2 because I want two 5's turn 3 and 4.  So the fact that you can't reach 5 both turn 3 and 4 isn't a big deal.

wharf -- sure, IF you open bishop, you don't want two wharfs, but I wouldn't open bishop, because I'd rather be playing wharfs early, not bishop. I'd buy a bishop later, exactly when being determined by whether I'm playing wharf/engine or wharf/money

minion -- you are falling into the same trap as usual, the trashing helps your opponent just as much as you, so you can't think of that as a benifit. In fact, with minion, it helps them MORE, because they have the option to use minion to draw 4 new cards AFTER using your bishop to trash. You might not have that option if you don't have a village.

Also, opening bishop lowers your chance of getting ANY 5's turn 3 and 4:
http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/

You have 34% chance of getting NO 5's with bishop/silver, as opposed to only 8.8% of missing 5's both turns with silver/silver.

That is roughly 20-25% of games where I will get a wharf early, and you won't. I WILL win the majority of those games. The question is whether you will win enough of the other games to make up for it.

I would argue I would also win most of the ~15% of games where I get two early wharfs, and you have a bishop and a wharf.

I would guess that all other games you might have a 55/45 advantage, which is not enough to make up for the other lost games. These are complicated questions, but I can't believe that you would never consider opening silver/silver and waiting to buy bishop.
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dondon151

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2012, 12:36:15 pm »
+1

Since when did we assume that Wharf was in every kingdom?

We are talking about power $5s here that make Bishop a poor open. Not all games have power $5s. I can maybe think of Mountebank, Witch, Wharf, HP, and Governor as the definitive $5s for which I would not open Bishop, almost ever. Some others, it depends on whether there is an engine present or not. But, for example, unless you can steamroll the opponent, you're at a loss if you don't open Bishop because you'll frequently be down at least ~6 VP from a sparsely played Bishop due to your Estate trashes.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 12:40:42 pm by dondon151 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2012, 01:30:51 pm »
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Quote
Interestingly, Fortress+bishop is the only combo I know of that doesn't require you to buy/gain cards to gain a large number of points. Which means you could conceivably get into get into a situation where nether player wants to buy any other cards to disrupt their combo, but the score is close... sort of a chess-draw.

If this occurs, the leading player can buy the remaining fortresses, then another draw card, preferably something like spy, and then cross their fingers and pile the bishops.
However, this is difficult to pull off, especially if fortress is the only village, and harder if it's the only cantrip.
It's also a bit risky, and one might want to just call it a draw.

If there are cards like caravan, market, or lab on the board, this situation can still proceed toward the endgame.

Although everything I just said may be totally incorrect, I think it would be very rare that fortress/bishop would leading to an unending game.

I think you are right that its rare, but its the first case in dominion I know of where something like that being possible.

KC-KC-Monument x3?
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hsiale

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2012, 06:02:14 pm »
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I just played a game against a Goko bot with Bishop and Chapel on the board. So first thing I thought about was going for the golden deck. Then I saw Militia and thought "no way". And then I saw Lighthouse. 2x Lighthouse, 2x Gold, Bishop and Province should work, so I decided to give it a try.

In the end the bot went with very aggressive early Militia (its first three buys were Chapel, Militia, Militia and third Militia followed turn 8) and it took me some time to get two Golds, when I was there I decided my deck is good enough to simply buy Provinces and Golds (which changed into Provinces as I bought two Remodels). I wonder what would happen if I tried to get rid of all remaining Silvers and Coppers to build the 6-card deck :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2012, 06:30:03 pm »
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I just played a game against a Goko bot with Bishop and Chapel on the board. So first thing I thought about was going for the golden deck. Then I saw Militia and thought "no way". And then I saw Lighthouse. 2x Lighthouse, 2x Gold, Bishop and Province should work, so I decided to give it a try.

In the end the bot went with very aggressive early Militia (its first three buys were Chapel, Militia, Militia and third Militia followed turn 8) and it took me some time to get two Golds, when I was there I decided my deck is good enough to simply buy Provinces and Golds (which changed into Provinces as I bought two Remodels). I wonder what would happen if I tried to get rid of all remaining Silvers and Coppers to build the 6-card deck :)

You didn't need two Golds for Golden Deck there.  You could do:

Gold, Silver, Lighthouse, Bishop, Province, second Lighthouse always in play

Bishop Province gives $1, $2 from two Lighthouses, $5 through Gold and Silver for $8 to buy a new Province.

Dipping into Remodel wouldn't be that helpful because you'd rather use Bishop instead.  You could just Bishop Gold instead of Province if need be, of course.
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DrFlux

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Re: Bishop
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2012, 08:00:58 pm »
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Since when did we assume that Wharf was in every kingdom?

We are talking about power $5s here that make Bishop a poor open. Not all games have power $5s. I can maybe think of Mountebank, Witch, Wharf, HP, and Governor as the definitive $5s for which I would not open Bishop, almost ever. Some others, it depends on whether there is an engine present or not. But, for example, unless you can steamroll the opponent, you're at a loss if you don't open Bishop because you'll frequently be down at least ~6 VP from a sparsely played Bishop due to your Estate trashes.

I agree that we are not talking about all games, but I have seen people open bishop with all the examples you cited. I would add other cards that might make me avoid opening bishop: Kings Court, Goons, tournament, colony, excellent trashers such as remake or ambassador. And bridge combos. I just think it adds up to wanting to open bishop infrequently (maybe 25-30% of games with bishop).

Also, I if you manage to buy a bishop by the second reshuffle, you should only be behind by ONE bishop play, which will be 2VP (1 VP if your opponent is unlucky). If you buy by the third reshuffle, it will be 2-4 VP behind. I don't know why you are coming up with 6VP, unless you are assuming you buy your bishop VERY late.

I absolutely agree that in some games, that ~3 points might be enough to make the difference. Of course it it depends on the kingdom. But I find the better the engine, the easier it is to make up that loss, and the less important it is to open bishop. Of course, if there is no +buy, it makes opening bishop much more attractive, because splitting the provinces 5/3, or picking up extra duchies, is really tough without extra buys.

Yeah, this should really be added to the article. The question of whether to open bishop is very subtle, and I was probably too simplistic in my presentation. I just see people open bishop on an Hunting Party board and it made me want to write this article.
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