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[Robz888]

And you...

The problem with the ICs is that they can possibly pick me - and I'm town.  No matter what we agree to, I'm not going to self lynch.

Of course we want our ICs to be involved, but if we give the game over to them, then we might as well not play.  This is a built in excuse to lurk - which then deprives the ICs of the data required.

[Insomniac]

Eevee the point of IC's is to make your scum hunting better as you know additionally townie's thats great! it doesn't mean you sheep them blindly. That gives no information. Because day 2 the ic goes hey insom lynched town I go "but i sheeped jimmm!"

[Captain_Frisk]

I can't wait for. SFS.

[Eevee]

The thing is, it's clear not all of you are scum. On the other hand, I feel I generally respond to logic pretty well and none of your explanations have convinced me I'm wrong. I'm torn really, I still believe I'm right, but it's clear I'm fairly alone with this viewpoint and I don't know if I should continue shoving this down everyone's throats until one party changes their minds. I'm envisioning an after-game scenario where scum-Galz and scum-Robz go like "oh Eevee was totally right, I'm really glad we made him drop the idea!" and I don't like it at all.

[Eevee]

I don't hate being wrong at all, fwiw. But being right for once and letting scum or misguided townies convince I'm wrong would be rather unfortunate.

[Insomniac]

I don't hate being wrong at all, fwiw. But being right for once and letting scum or misguided townies convince I'm wrong would be rather unfortunate.

Why is it clear we aren't all scum it could be Galz-Robz-Ins...but worst scum team ever award

[Galzria]

The thing is Eevee, I see what you're driving for, but I think you're not understanding the value of the lost information. You simply cannot "recreate" or "psydocreate" the same feelings of scummy vs not-scummy behavior without real votes and stances and arguments that lead somewhere. "I would vote X" is such an easy thing to fake.

Further, while your premise that "in a vacuum, IC's would have a 50% chance"is accurate, we are not in a vacuum. And I think that what your suggestion boils down to is "Let's have the two sides debate, and the IC's pick the winner". It doesn't account for the fact that you're essentially turning the game into a straight oratorical contest, rather than what's scummy and what's not.

Robz is probably a better orator than I am. He likes to claim he's better than Insomniac (See: M-III, following M-II ). If he's scum, he can probably "out-debate" me - and there's not a lot I can do about it.

Further to that point, what if he's town as well? Do the IC's open the next day saying "Well Galz wasn't scum, so Robz must be" - or do they put it up to another debate?

I think that while, on the surface it might be 50/50, you're actually changing the nature of the game to take away information analysis, and in it's place those who are stronger orators will prevail - for whichever alignment they are on.

[Eevee]

I still disagree, but can't really argue my point any better than I already have and your post certainly made sense so moving on I guess. I'd like SfS, Jimmmm and shraeye to comment on this also though.

At least this discussion means I had some contributions day 1, going to sleeps soon.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.1:
Captain_Frisk (1): Insomniac
Insomniac (1): Captain_Frisk

Not voting (6): Eevee, Galzria, Jimmmmm, Robz888, shraeye, SwitchedFromStarcraft

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends Friday, November 16 at 9:00 p.m. forum time.

Note, day starts and vote counts are linked in Post #1.

[Eevee]

I'm off to sleeps, will be back on in ~10 hours but as I said, pretty much only from mobile.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.1:
Captain_Frisk (1): Insomniac
Insomniac (1): Captain_Frisk

Not voting (6): Eevee, Galzria, Jimmmmm, Robz888, shraeye, SwitchedFromStarcraft

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends Friday, November 16 at 9:00 p.m. forum time.

A note on ties.  If there is a tie at the end of the day, the player lynched will be the one with the most unique votes, as counted by the Mods.  Mods will keep track of all votes to tally unique votes.  Multiple votes by one player will not be counted as unique.  The maximum number of unique votes is also 8, if one self-votes.  Unique votes cannot be unvoted.  An example follows:

Player A votes for B.  C votes for B.  B votes for C.  The vote count would be:

B (2): A, C
C (1): B

B has 2 unique votes.  C has 1 unique vote.

Later, Player A votes for C.  The vote count changes:

B (1): C
C (2): B, A

B and C now both have 2 unique votes.

D and F vote for B; E votes for C.  The day ends in a tie:

B (3): C, D, F
C (3): B, A, E

B has 4 unique votes (A, C, D, F) while C has 3 (B, A, E).  B is lynched.

PM or bold questions if you have any.  But really, just be sure to lynch by the deadline.  Also, the two votes in 1.1 do not count toward the unique count, as they have been deemed RVS.  All further votes will count toward the unique vote count, including self-votes.

[Robz888]

"Sucks for Insomniac and Frisk, this is sure to be contentiously debated" is what I was going to say right up until your end disclaimer. Good call on that.

But what happens if there is also a tie in unique votes?

[Robz888]

And you might just want to completely reset the votes to nothing, or else Insomniac and Frisk both have real votes against them, but 0 unique votes, which might become problematic.

[ashersky]

They are welcome to unvote.  If they want them to be counted as unique votes, they need to re-vote.  We're keeping close track--there are three of us.

If unique votes are also a tie, I might have to extend the day, or flip a coin.

[shraeye]

@Eevee, first thing I want you to do when you read this thread again.  As soon as you read this post, before looking at anything else.  Please clarify this post of yours in fresh words (no quoting any posts except this one).

I call Ins+Galzria scum team.

"whoops! We lynched a townie? Guess the IC was wrong..." makes no sense, I was asking people to choose the IC they'll be sheeping specificifally so that that wouldn't happen!

But that's EXACTLY what will happen if the first lynch is town. The only reason you'll have for having lynched that person is "My IC told me to".

That is correct. Really think this through though, please. I'd at least like to be convinced I'm wrong.

Some things I'd love for you to cover: specifically what that Galz said is correct? What do you want Galz to think through?  What does the third sentence mean?

[shraeye]

2nd task (this one's for everyone!)

There's a scumslip somewhere in posts 60-79, I am convinced.  Read all those posts carefully.  If you have found it, tell me what it is.  Don't tell me what you think I think it is. This isn't a game of "first correct guess wins towny points"

"I think you are wrong" is a legitimate answer.  Avoid commenting on the veracity other people's answers until at least 4 non-ICs have given theirs.

[shraeye]

2nd task (this one's for everyone!)

There's a scumslip somewhere in posts 60-79, I am convinced.  Read all those posts carefully.  If you have found it, tell me what it is.  Don't tell me what you think I think it is. This isn't a game of "first correct guess wins towny points"

"I think you are wrong" is a legitimate answer.  Avoid commenting on the veracity other people's answers until at least 4 non-ICs have given theirs.

Naw, let's make it 5 of the 6 non-ICs.  I'm trying to balance receiving the answers without too much outside influence with not holding up discussion badly (keep up any other discussions by all means, just quote the above post when answering).

[shraeye]

Also, I know exactly what I think about the ideas of how to use the ICs.  I think I have read at least one opinion that matches how I'd want to use an IC.  I'll post more about this in the morning.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

I'm awake, and getting caught up.

[Captain_Frisk]

I just reread 60-79, and I don't see a scum slip, but I'm not so good at this.

[Eevee]

I didnt miss much while sleeping.

Dont see a scum slip either.

Frist sentence said "that is true but also doesn't really matter in the big picture". It's like saying "we shouldn't lynch at all day 1, we always just hit town". While first part is too, it doesnt really lead to second part.

I would have liked Galzria to read through my posts carefully and really give my idea a fair chance. I felt he ignored a fair amount of my points. Third sentence is just what it is, I feel my idea was problem and ideally I would have liked to see it implemented or someone to convince me why we shouldn't implement it.

I fear shraeye thinks he has found a scum slip in a post of mine and if that's the case, I'm as good as dead because changing shraeye's mind is hard. The more I've thought about this, the more a creeping suspicion that Galz is indeed scum has risen. I suspect Robz too, but less so than Galzria.

[Captain_Frisk]

Shraeye, why are you even providing reads?  Doesn't this mess up your theory?

[Captain_Frisk]

I meant eevee

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - @eevee - this is my last post on the subject.

I don't trust shraeyes reads over my own because I have more information than shraeye / jimm do.

I KNOW THAT I'M TOWN.  I also know that shraeye and jimm are town, but everyone knows that.

Your ridiculous proposition sounds like something that could be cooked up in daychat.

[Eevee]

i feel like no one even read my idea.