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shraeye

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Shraeye tries to get better
« on: November 12, 2012, 09:58:25 pm »
+1

Hey, I'm shraeye.  I'm much more present on the games forum than in the actual Dominion-related area, but mostly because I'm not experienced enough to comment on different articles/strategies/gamelogs/etc.  I'm trying to change that.  Currently, I'm level 10 or so on Isotropic, and probably only have 70 games (I can't actually check, because until today I hadn't played a game in a while).

So here's a thread where I post terrible games, close matches, and awesome wins (hah, that'll take a while) and kindly ask those better than me to take a look at those logs and give me one major lesson per game (ok, maybe two if you have some really good ideas; but laundry lists of everything I need to do to improve would be toooo long and overwhelming).

I was going to start off with an unfortunate loss to MrEevee where he steamrolled me with a University/Stables type engine.  But I don't have that log, so instead I'll start with a win, which by a margin that surprised me by its smallness at the end (I also play with point counter off most the time, so often don't know how well i'm doing).

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-184359-e62202f0.html

My summary:
  • My initial plan is to get a few actions going with Upgrade (turn Estates into Silvers/Wishing wells) and Mining Village, then start buying Border Villages and gaining Conspirators, eventually buying double Provinces.  It mostly works.
  • I get distracted by a Trade Route, which frustrates me as I have to trash cards that I'm not sure if I can afford or not because I'm not tracking my deck's worth (this is the reason I bought a random copper with 2 Provinces once).
  • I become afraid to use Upgrade for much the same reason.
  • Twice Wishing Well finds my Conspirators, yay!
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thirtyseven

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 10:40:02 pm »
0

This thread is better off in the Help! thread, but anyway...

Yeah, why do you need the Trade Route there? The Wharves (which I would've tried to have gotten more of) provide the +Buy you need. Definitely like going Conspirator here, and Upgrade works well with that.
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 10:55:28 pm »
0

This thread is better off in the Help! thread, but anyway...

Yeah, why do you need the Trade Route there? The Wharves (which I would've tried to have gotten more of) provide the +Buy you need. Definitely like going Conspirator here, and Upgrade works well with that.
Yeah, I thought about putting it in Help! (theory can decide on that), but I'm looking more to discuss general strategies, showcase some wins (hopefully), and document my dominion progress.  That feels more like an all-around Dominion-ish thing instead of a "here is a very specific question; help!"

So how does upgrade work well with Conspirator?  Should I be getting some silvers to bump up into Conspirators, or is it just the +action part of it that's useful?  Gotta start loving Wharves a bit more, I think  :)
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thirtyseven

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 11:09:12 pm »
+1

So how does upgrade work well with Conspirator?  Should I be getting some silvers to bump up into Conspirators, or is it just the +action part of it that's useful?  Gotta start loving Wharves a bit more, I think  :)

Upgrade does two things for you here: helps clear out those starting Coppers and Estates (that hinder you from getting to your Conspirators and other actions) and it's +1 Action allows you to play Conspirators even if you're lacking villages. The thing is it costs the same as Wharf, another card you want, but I'd buy an Upgrade first. Whenever you go for a Conspirator strategy, you want as little Silver (and as little treasure in general) as possible in order to chain all your actions together. In this game, always buy WW with $3 (except get one Silver in the early game to ramp up your buying power early). Even if there were no kingdom cards costing $3 or less, resist buying a Silver on $3 and just end your turn, hard as it is! And yes, gotta start loving Wharves. Have you checked out the article(s) on Wharf or the "Qvist Card Rankings" threads?

Edit: I see now you opened 5/2 in which case the Wharf instead of the Upgrade was the right move. When to get Upgrade(s) and when to get Wharves really depends on the ratio of terminal actions to nonterminal actions in your deck.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 11:12:29 pm by thirtyseven »
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dondon151

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 12:02:18 am »
+2

I think you need to look at Conspirator as the supplement for this engine rather than as the payload itself. The payload here is BV-Wharf, and you can afford to have an economy based on Treasures in this deck - in fact, you should prefer Gold and not avoid Silver. Conspirators just help keep everything running smoothly - Upgrading a Silver to a Conspirator, drawing it, and then playing it is a pretty strong move when you don't have any better targets for Upgrade. You don't need to trash away all of your Copper here, either.

You shouldn't have to worry about activating Conspirators. Once your Wharf draw is big enough, then the BV-Wharf combo does that for you. I could be wrong here, but I would actually suggest preferring Silver over Wishing Well as a $3 target. You can change either of them to a Conspirator later, but Silver gives more buying power immediately.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 12:03:58 am by dondon151 »
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ehunt

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 12:49:42 am »
0

I think I would skip upgrade on this board and just stock up on villages and wharves. Conspirator is nice, but not essential. When you decide to start buying money, you can decide if you want it in the form of conspirators or silvers.
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eliegel34

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 01:33:54 am »
0

Like the others have said this game the priority is a wharf engine where you draw your whole deck every turn.  There are a couple different ways to get there, but i would recommend remake into conspirators. 

Remake is great at trashing quickly since it upgrades 2 cards on the same turn, and there are tons of cool tricks you can play with it in this set. Remake is also good here since you can trash estates into Wishing Well, which activates your conspirators as well as increase hand size.  It allows you to draw your whole deck faster by reducing the size. 

I'm going to make a bold statement: Conspirator is awesome here!  It needs the Wharf BV engine to get it started and draw your whole deck but it helps you get to that point to without putting money like silver and gold that take up space in your deck.  I would recommend never buying money and only BV, Wharf, WW, and Conspirator.  The priority is to draw your whole deck as soon as possible so BV and Wharf are most important.  When you miss those early get WW or Conspirator.  Conspirator is essentially a cheep Grand Market in this set.  BV Wharf gives you a large enough hand size that it is always activated, and all the buys that you will ever need.   

There are a ton of cool tricks you can do with remake in this set.  Early on you want to remake estate to WW as first priority and kill copper second.  Once you are starting to draw your deck it is easy to remake a WW to a Conspirator and still draw it that turn with other WW or Conspirator.  Typically you want to balance how your Wharfs are split; if you have 4 Wharfs, you want to play 2 each turn.  If you end up with 3 on 1 turn before you are drawing everything, you can always remake a Wharf into a BV and Wharf.  Free Boarder Village. 

I played with this for a while, and here is an example log solo: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-234632-0ec833da.html
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 05:44:59 am »
+2

I played with this for a while, and here is an example log solo: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/12/game-20121112-234632-0ec833da.html

At first, I wanted to complain about your usage of a very lucky turn 3/4. Remaking two estates *and* getting $6, that's the dream scenario. The quality of an opening is not determined by the strength of the dream, but by the strength of an average scenario. Sure you can get to 8 provinces in 14 turns if you play enough single player and post the luckiest one. But that's kind of meaningless.

Then I tried a game myself opening WW/Remake, and I got the far more reasonable scenario of destroying one estate and getting to $3 max on my first reshuffle. The result... I got 8 provinces two turns sooner  :o

OK, wishing well is a great friend for remake. And in a strong deck, remake is a great card.
Drawing & playing a card you just created is always super powerful. This kingdom enables it amazingly soon.
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thirtyseven

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 07:54:24 am »
0

Maybe you ended 2 turns sooner because your name is -Stef-? ;)

And I can't believe I didn't see Remake in the kingdom! Absolutely go for that instead of Upgrade. The others are right about BV/Wharf being top priority as well.
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DG

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 09:15:35 am »
0

This set can use the excellent wishing well/conspirator/upgrade engine from Intrigue with some embellishment from border villages and wharves. You can open with an upgrade on 5/2. You do not want to buy any silvers at all, just buy wishing wells and they will do the business. It's then up to your opponent to match you and force the game into 3 pile ending.

Opening with the wharf gives you some higher initial spending but the deck construction comes in the wrong sequence. You're also losing time that could be spent trashing estates and this could only be a 11-13 turn game.
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shark_bait

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 09:49:02 am »
0

One thing to be very careful about in this game is managing your drawing/buying power.  A Conspirator engine that this game promotes can lead to a game where you can easily get excessive draw (no cards left in draw pile to pick up).  There is a fine balance between having enough draw to get through your deck but not too much so that you have wasted +Card.  Remake and Upgrade are great for managing this as you can upgrade cards and then play them on the same turn.  If you find yourself drawing through your entire deck, make sure that your next purchases provide cash of some sort so that you increase your buying power. 
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DG

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 10:30:33 am »
0

Quote
If you find yourself drawing through your entire deck, make sure that your next purchases provide cash of some sort so that you increase your buying power. 

You can actually upgrade your wishing wells to conspirators if you can easily draw through the deck, not to mention tricks with border villages.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 10:32:08 am by DG »
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 12:06:22 pm »
0

1. Remake is a significantly better trasher than trade route/upgrade.  As like all trashers, it should be obtained right away (T3 should be remake). 
2. Conspirators need two main things to make it worth concentrating your deck around.  Action density, usually with trashers (remake, upgrade), and replayable actions or cantrips (border village, wishing well).  Easy method to get +buys (Wharves).  This game is almost designed for you to go conspirators.  See stef for proper balance of playable actions/+buys/conspirators. 

Then I tried a game myself opening WW/Remake, and I got the far more reasonable scenario of destroying one estate and getting to $3 max on my first reshuffle. The result... I got 8 provinces two turns sooner  :o

Also, providing your thoughts on the game is really helpful to those giving you advice as it allows us to know what you were thinking (and more importantly, what you have missed).  It'll also provide you, ideally, a progression in your thoughts as you post more often.
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 11:46:06 am »
0

This set can use the excellent wishing well/conspirator/upgrade engine from Intrigue with some embellishment from border villages and wharves. You can open with an upgrade on 5/2. You do not want to buy any silvers at all, just buy wishing wells and they will do the business. It's then up to your opponent to match you and force the game into 3 pile ending.

Opening with the wharf gives you some higher initial spending but the deck construction comes in the wrong sequence. You're also losing time that could be spent trashing estates and this could only be a 11-13 turn game.
I am surprised by this, delaying a buy of wharf until later.  I'm not sure if I know the WW/conspirator/upgrade engine that you talk about well enough to evaluate it.  It seems that others agree that Remake is the better card here as I can trash two cards at once, Upgrade does have the +1action that matches well with Conspirator, but if I have Border Villages for bonus actions, could I get away with using the faster Remake instead of the +action Upgrade?
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 11:59:37 am »
0

I took some ideas that people had, and did this on my first solo try.  Further comments greatly appreciated.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/15/game-20121115-085848-062b4ffb.html

Here's my second try, same result (15 turns) with a few more points.  I know I made a mistake of remaking a Copper once, instead of remaking an unused Wharf into a BV/Wharf.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/15/game-20121115-091010-7ae53741.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:11:38 pm by shraeye »
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DG

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 12:26:15 pm »
0

Quote
It seems that others agree that Remake is the better card here as I can trash two cards at once, Upgrade does have the +1action that matches well with Conspirator, but if I have Border Villages for bonus actions, could I get away with using the faster Remake instead of the +action Upgrade?

There is an elegance in design when you can get the maximum use from all your cards. This is clearly happening for the border village, wharf, conspirator, wishing well, etc. It is also the case for the estates since you are using their cost of 2 when they are upgraded to wishing wells. The elegant use of copper here is to draw it all and spend it each turn rather than hack it away with a remake. Whether it is more effective to do so is another matter, but I expect the upgrade has a better variation of draws starting from 5/2 regardless.
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 12:29:55 pm »
0

Yeah, I could see Upgrade being the route to go if you open 5/2 as we both did in the original game.  I think 3/4 is very powerful with WW/remake as -Stef- and eliegel showed.

Do others agree that Upgrade is the best opening with 5/2?
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 03:21:43 pm »
+1

Status update: I'm at level 12 now, 80 games played total. 

Going to summarize "Lessons Learned" soon, then play another batch of games to pick a mildly interesting one to post next.
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 10:21:48 pm »
+2

Lessons learned:
  • Remake is a powerful trasher, especially when there are so many cards that I want at each level.  Wishing Well is cantrips that support Conspirator, Remaking Wharves gives a free Border Village
  • Focus here on winning the conspirator split.  I'm aiming for at least $16, so if I get 6 conspirators, I need to keep at least 4 copper.  If I can get 7 conspirators, then I can afford to trash more copper (or keep it to use a third buy on some turns?)
  • Learn to love Wharf; it's very powerful
  • Optimal number of wharves seems to be 3-4 in this kingdom; need to fine-tune so I don't have +Cards with no cards to actually draw

Finding next game worth discussing now...
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shraeye

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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 09:32:17 pm »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/23/game-20121123-181308-37355312.html

Here's a sweet game, the board was Jester, Mandarin, Mining Village, Nobles, Outpost, Quarry, Spy, Tournament, Vault, and Witch

Opponent opens Quarry/Silver
I open Silver/Tournament

My summary
  • My initial plan was to go for provinces with some help from Nobles, but not bother with dealing out curses
  • The action cards I want from the start are Nobles, Mining Villages, Jesters, Tournaments, and Vaults (if I get too many curses)
  • When my opponent gets two Witches, I cave and buy one myself, surprisingly losing the curse split only 7-3 with my 1 witch to his 3 (jester helps); I also abandon getting Vaults.
  • I get distracted by Mandarin, which I buy with my first $5.  I think that getting Jester would have been much stronger for my strategy (or caving early and grabbing Witch)
  • I lose the Nobles split badly, and then start hoping I can grab extra provinces before my opponent 3-piles (spoiler alert: it doesn't work).  However, I come pretty close, getting a last turn $7
  • The two buys I regret the most was a Gold over Nobles on turn 11, and a Mandarin instead of a Jester on turn 4
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 11:35:51 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/23/game-20121123-181308-37355312.html

Here's a sweet game, the board was Jester, Mandarin, Mining Village, Nobles, Outpost, Quarry, Spy, Tournament, Vault, and Witch

Opponent opens Quarry/Silver
I open Silver/Tournament

My summary
  • My initial plan was to go for provinces with some help from Nobles, but not bother with dealing out curses
  • The action cards I want from the start are Nobles, Mining Villages, Jesters, Tournaments, and Vaults (if I get too many curses)
  • When my opponent gets two Witches, I cave and buy one myself, surprisingly losing the curse split only 7-3 with my 1 witch to his 3 (jester helps); I also abandon getting Vaults.
  • I get distracted by Mandarin, which I buy with my first $5.  I think that getting Jester would have been much stronger for my strategy (or caving early and grabbing Witch)
  • I lose the Nobles split badly, and then start hoping I can grab extra provinces before my opponent 3-piles (spoiler alert: it doesn't work).  However, I come pretty close, getting a last turn $7
  • The two buys I regret the most was a Gold over Nobles on turn 11, and a Mandarin instead of a Jester on turn 4

I'm not quite a world-class player like some here but your early buys look pretty terrible to me. Tournament/Silver isn't a bad opening but witch slows the game down enough (and junks your deck enough) that tournament's payout is less strong. Ignoring witch I think is a huge mistake and it probably should have been your first $5. Mandarin is probably not a strong buy here, although it did let you hit six. Still it should have been a Witch. Your first $6 (which admittedly came because of Mandarin) should have been Gold rather than Nobles. I think subsequent $5s, if you don't want a second Witch, should have been Vault+Gold is pretty viable in a junky deck.
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 11:41:44 pm »
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Actually I think tournament is good in curse games since it's less likely to be blocked and cantrips let you play witch more. But passing up witch is not an option. Get a witch and then a vault on your second five.
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 11:43:15 pm »
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Is there a reason you wanted to ignore curses?  Because you're basically never going to get a +Cards/+Actions engine going when you have no trashing AND you are eating all the curses.
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 11:45:16 pm »
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Actually I think tournament is good in curse games since it's less likely to be blocked and cantrips let you play witch more. But passing up witch is not an option. Get a witch and then a vault on your second five.

Interesting. But it takes so long to hit 8 usually, and then your deck is so junky that matching tournament to province is tougher. I guess tournament is basically just a peddler in these games, which is pretty good but not quite the powerhouse tournament usually is. As far as prizes go, Followers is pretty bad, Trusty Steed's silver option is pretty strong in these games.
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Re: Shraeye tries to get better
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2012, 12:14:47 am »
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The witch dominates the kingdom, it should be your first 5 coin buy, and you probably want a second witch or vault to back that up. There's a question of whether to buy mining villages and I think you probably do, mainly because of the nobles. If you're planning to gain some mining villages later then you probably have the leeway to open with tournament, otherwise it is going to be a handicap to a witch/witch deck.
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