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Author Topic: Garden Question from a noob  (Read 4780 times)

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dk87

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Garden Question from a noob
« on: August 28, 2011, 02:38:04 pm »
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Last night we started to play this game for the first time. 4 men who had no idea what we were doing at the beginning of the game. As time passed we started figuring things out, one dude in particular started buying up Garden cards. I thought nothing of it 'cause I was buying up Estate cards, what a friend and I called "douches". At the end of the game I was sure I was gonna win 'cause I had s shitton of green cards but then it turns out that Garden is, apparently, worth 1 Estate card per 10 cards in the deck PER Garden card. He had something like 7 Garden cards, so if he had 40 cards then he had 4 Estate points x the 7 Garden cards. Which if course is a lot.

Is that how Garden works? I was under the impression that it was 1 Estate per 10 cards ONLY and after those 10 cards were used, the extra Garden cards were useless. Because if Garden actually works like that, then what the hell is the point of doing anything else? All I could do is buy Gardens and fatten up my deck and that'll be the end of the game, right?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 02:58:07 pm »
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Province cards are worth 6 Estate cards. Buy them.
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Markov Chain

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 03:08:16 pm »
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The card means what it says; each Gardens is worth one VP for every 10 cards in your deck, so if you have 7 Gardens in a 40-card deck, that is 28 VP.

However, Gardens aren't the only strategy, because the game can end before you get your deck large enough to make them worthwhile, or because they may run out.  In order to get a lot of Gardens, you have to buy them early, and they don't help you get other cards; players who are not going for Gardens will buy powerful cards such as Gold and Laboratory, then use them to buy Provinces, and possibly pick up a few Gardens late.

It's an important point of strategy to decide whether to go for a Gardens or Province strategy; there are lots of discussions on this board about the decision.
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rinkworks

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 05:06:52 pm »
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It's also worth pointing out that if the rest of you were buying up Estates, you were slowing down your own decks by doing so.  That, in turn, caused the game to run longer than it needed to, which gave the Gardens player more time to accumulate cards and, in turn, increase the value of his Gardens cards.

The usual strategy (*except* when going for Gardens) is not to buy green cards at all -- rather, work up to buying Golds and $5+ action cards as soon as possible, so that you're then regularly earning $8+ per hand.  At that point, dive into the Provinces.  They'll be gone quick.  If you're able to end a game on Provinces efficiently, you'll probably beat a Gardens player, because the usual Gardens strategy is to race to buy them up and end the game on three piles, before the Province player can buy enough Provinces.

In general, the only times you want to buy Estates are (1) if you know the game is about to end, and you have a hand where you can't afford any better green cards, so you might as well buy yourself another point; and (2) when you're trying to empty the pile as part of an attempt to end the game on three piles.  Buying Estates at other times usually just means you don't have enough money to buy better things later.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 10:37:27 am »
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As a new player, you'll experience this a lot. Someone will discover a really cool trick with a card, and you may find yourself asking, "Is that really what the card does? If so, then why bother buying anything else?"

The answer is that no card dominates 100% of the games. Sure, Gardens can be a really powerful card—when it works. There are plenty of times when it doesn't. The same can be said about Witch, Chapel, and all manner of cards from the expansion (seriously, go check out the BGG forums and count the threads proclaiming Pirate Ship as being overpowered).

The allure of the game (for me, anyway) is that the kingdom cards change from game to game. Part of the game is identifying when a certain card is worthwhile. Just because you got your ass handed to you by Library in one game doesn't mean that you will dominate the next game with it.

And, as has been stated, buying Estates is a surefire way to lose (except for those cases where the strategy calls for it). It's an easy trap to fall into. You win with victory points, so why wouldn't you get VP at every opportunity? In most games, this is fair, but in those games VPs are kept separate and do not hinder your ability to gain more VP later. In Dominion, that's exactly what buying VPs do. Even buying a Province is going to slow you down in over 90% of the games you play.  Every time you buy a VP card, you are choosing to degrade your deck for the opportunity of increasing your score. If that card is a Province, then you have a little deck degradation for a lot of points. If that card is an Estate, then you have a little deck degradation for minimal points. Consider if you'd rather clog your deck with one Province or six Estates. Both options give you the same number of points, but the latter will hurt you a lot. For that reason, you will find yourself giving up the chance to buy VP cards early in the game. You want to build up a strong deck so that when you do start buying VP cards, they slow you down only slightly. If you can build up a deck where you buy a Province every turn (or at least a Duchy), then you're sitting pretty.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 05:42:03 pm »
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I am new too, so I understand your reaction to the Gardens card. As a new player, here's what I'm learning:

1. For the most part, any set of cards that has the Witch in it, means you must buy and play the Witch. You don't need all of them, just try and get a few as early as possible you can hand out the curses (and enjoy the card draw).

2. If Gardens is in the set AND there's a card that helps you with additional buys/acquires (like say Woodcutter or Workshop), then buy Gardens and buy Estates. Try to 3-pile as fast as you can. That is to say try to pick 3 cards that will run out before your opponents buy provinces. Gardens + Estate + 1 other pile is usually the focus (that third pile could Woodcutter or Workshop, which help you acquire cards, or make additional buys).

3. MONEY. If you are lost on what to do. Here's a simple formula to follow: When you get 3, 4 or 5 buy silver. 6, 7 buy gold. 8 buy a province. If there is a Mine and/or a Smithy buy just ONE of each (as soon as you can), but the rest just focus on improving your money. It's simple, but it defeats most "newb" strategies 80% of the time. You'll be amazed at how quickly you're looking at 9, 10 copper per turn and chewing up Provinces faster than your opponent. In fact, this strategy on really fails when someone is playing Gardens (item 2). In that case, its possible he 3-piles the set before you consume enough provinces to beat him.

4. Read the basic strategy guide on this site. It is platinum. It really explains well what cards/combos to look for in a board. Learn to love Chapel and how to use it if it is there. Learn to Witch before your players do and avoid over-indulging in Villages/Labs without buying money. In fact, unless the board is extremely tilted (and it rarely is in basic set), always buy money at least 50% of the time. If you are unsure...the safest thing to do is buy money.

These are very BASIC sets of advice, the better players here can add/refine this advice, but those 4 tips have really, really helped me.
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Epoch

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Re: Garden Question from a noob
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 02:52:09 pm »
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I am new too, so I understand your reaction to the Gardens card. As a new player, here's what I'm learning:

1. For the most part, any set of cards that has the Witch in it, means you must buy and play the Witch. You don't need all of them, just try and get a few as early as possible you can hand out the curses (and enjoy the card draw).

Broadly speaking, on most boards, you'll probably only want one Witch.  Maybe two, almost certainly no more than that.  There may be exceptions, but don't overbuy Witches -- they're really bad once the Curses run out.

4. Read the basic strategy guide on this site. It is platinum. It really explains well what cards/combos to look for in a board. Learn to love Chapel and how to use it if it is there. Learn to Witch before your players do and avoid over-indulging in Villages/Labs without buying money.

Don't really conflate Villages and Labs, either -- Labs are a much better card (alone) than Villages, which is why Labs are correctly priced at $5 instead of $3.  It's generally much stronger to buy a lot of Labs (along with some money or other cards like Festival) than to buy a lot of Villages.
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