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Author Topic: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?  (Read 3045 times)

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Copernicus

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Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« on: August 28, 2011, 12:23:55 pm »
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First (and maybe last) time I've seen this setup in one of my games.  But it was an interesting mental puzzle.

I went Remake/Chapel, but I had no idea what and how to trash with Remake and Chapel.  Do I want to save an Estate from Chapel in order to chain up to a treasure map?  Is getting rid of coppers better than estates initially so I can trash more frequently?


Note: No cursers or any other amazing cards to go get besides those three (Tournament, Caravan, Laboratory, etc).
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 01:38:02 pm »
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Dunno about Remake, but the normal Chapel/Treasure Map strategy is to open Silver/Chapel, trash quickly, and get the Maps later.
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minced

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 02:06:39 pm »
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Chapel away coppers and a single estate. Remake remaining two estates into silver, then into two treasure maps. Next turn, cash in.
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agrajag

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 03:38:59 pm »
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Getting both Remake and Chapel seems like a bad decision, or at least a riskier one. If you don't get the Remake with two estates on your 3rd or 4th turn, it is probably better/faster to go Chapel/Silver instead. Chapel away Coppers and Estates and just buy the Treasure Maps normally (you might need to buy a second Silver also).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 02:26:15 am »
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I think remake/chapel should be faster than silver/chapel since once you get down to 5 cards including remake and 2 silvers, you're there in 2 turns: remake into the maps, play the maps. With silver/chapel you need to get down to that point, then spend 2 turns buying maps and a third using them. And remake/chapel should get down there as fast or faster than silver/chapel since you have 2 trashing cards.
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Fangz

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 08:00:40 am »
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The problem is that getting down to 5 cards can take quite some time, and you are forfeitting opportunities to get two treasure maps before then.

Hmm, my gut instinct is to open treasure map/chapel. Use hands with chapel to trash everything, except $4 hands (buy treasure map), and $3 hands without chapel to buy a single silver. (And a second if value of deck falls below $4)
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 12:22:58 pm »
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Hmm, my gut instinct is to open treasure map/chapel. Use hands with chapel to trash everything, except $4 hands (buy treasure map), and $3 hands without chapel to buy a single silver. (And a second if value of deck falls below $4)
Trust me: Silver/Chapel is a better opening than Treasure Map/Chapel. Or don't trust me and test it out yourself! ;)
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Epoch

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 12:39:55 pm »
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After limited testing on isotropic (only a few games), I seem to get to the point of using the Treasure Maps (profitably) on turn 8 with both Chapel/Silver opening and Chapel/Remake opening.  Though I'm not sure I totally understand Chapel/Silver.  Do you buy a second Silver, or just reserve two Coppers untrashed?
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2011, 01:20:29 pm »
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You seem to have misread my post: "Silver/Chapel is a better opening than Treasure Map/Chapel"

The typical case with Silver/Chapel is that you buy 2 Treasure Maps before you finish trashing your Copper (without having to hold back on trashing or buy a second Silver), but the less-great case where you have to either preserve 2 Copper or buy another Silver isn't a total disaster either.
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Epoch

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 01:23:59 pm »
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You seem to have misread my post: "Silver/Chapel is a better opening than Treasure Map/Chapel"

Didn't misread it; wasn't challenging it.  I think you're right, and that you're so obviously right that I didn't bother to test Chapel/Treasure Map.  I was interested in the other two cases, though.
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 01:32:52 pm »
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You seem to have misread my post: "Silver/Chapel is a better opening than Treasure Map/Chapel"

Didn't misread it; wasn't challenging it.  I think you're right, and that you're so obviously right that I didn't bother to test Chapel/Treasure Map.  I was interested in the other two cases, though.
Word. Yeah, I haven't done any testing at all with Remake. I'm intrigued with it as a possibility but not convinced it will outperform Silver/Chapel.
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Fangz

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 05:34:04 pm »
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I don't really understand... Why would chapel/silver be better? My (limited) experiments suggest they are vaguely equal, with TM/chapel being more volatile, but sometimes being really, really fast (as in turn 5 fast). Chapel/Silver runs into the risk of drawing chapel, silver, copper, copper, estate, whereas with chapel/TM you have a TM already in the bank, and so can trash coppers more freely.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 05:49:48 pm by Fangz »
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jonts26

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 05:56:37 pm »
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I don't really understand... Why would chapel/silver be better? My (limited) experiments suggest they are vaguely equal, with TM/chapel being more volatile, but sometimes being really, really fast (as in turn 5 fast). Chapel/Silver runs into the risk of drawing chapel, silver, copper, copper, estate, whereas with chapel/TM you have a TM already in the bank, and so can trash coppers more freely.

As a general rule, just because something has a chance of being faster does not make it a better strategy. Play the probabilities, not the possibilities. Also TM/chapel open runs the risk of map and chapel colliding, which is just as useless as silver and chapel colliding.

Edit: Also I would think you can trash copper LESS freely opening map since you are relying on drawing 4 copper hand to get the second map.
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 06:02:44 pm »
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I don't really understand... Why would chapel/silver be better?
Than Chapel/Treasure Map? Because the latter opening is more likely to have wasted early turns where you can't make meaningful progress. Any 2-Copper hand at turn 3 or 4 without a Chapel in it is disaster. A 3-Copper hand with no Chapel is... not any better than if you'd opened Chapel/Silver. Even in Chapel/TM cases where you luck into a 2nd Treasure Map without ever buying Silver or missing an opportunity to trash Coppers, well, you don't have that rather helpful Silver in your tiny little rapidly-clogging deck, so the improvement is marginal.
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jonts26

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 06:07:18 pm »
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you don't have that rather helpful Silver in your tiny little rapidly-clogging deck, so the improvement is marginal.

Good point. In this type of deck, one silver is pretty much equivalent to gold, since the main thresholds are $8 and $5.
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Fangz

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 07:13:35 pm »
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I don't really understand... Why would chapel/silver be better? My (limited) experiments suggest they are vaguely equal, with TM/chapel being more volatile, but sometimes being really, really fast (as in turn 5 fast). Chapel/Silver runs into the risk of drawing chapel, silver, copper, copper, estate, whereas with chapel/TM you have a TM already in the bank, and so can trash coppers more freely.

As a general rule, just because something has a chance of being faster does not make it a better strategy. Play the probabilities, not the possibilities. Also TM/chapel open runs the risk of map and chapel colliding, which is just as useless as silver and chapel colliding.

Edit: Also I would think you can trash copper LESS freely opening map since you are relying on drawing 4 copper hand to get the second map.

I suggested earlier opening TM, buying one silver with first $3 hand, so you aren't relying on drawing 4 copper. Map and chapel colliding isn't as useless as silver and chapel colliding, because silver chapel colliding means you can only trash 1 starter card (and spend the rest to buy TM), while TM chapel means you just trash 1 fewer card that turn.
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jonts26

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 07:38:18 pm »
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i would prioritize trashing over the second map buy. Thinning your deck makes it more likely to get enough to buy map later and more likely for them to collide.
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guided

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Re: Chapel/Remake/Treasure Map -- What's the trashing strategy?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 12:35:12 am »
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I suggested earlier opening TM, buying one silver with first $3 hand
But this is identical to opening Silver/Chapel, except that your plans can go awry because you didn't get $3 (with no Chapel) for the Silver. If Silver and Chapel collide with the Silver opening, you unhesitantly trash 3 cards. Basically the only possible upside of the TM/Chapel opening is that with perfect shuffle luck you can hit turn 5 instead of turn 6 (though again, with no Silver in your deck). In the more likely cases the Silver/Chapel opening is either identical or better.

I'm not just speaking theoretically either; I've extensively tested these two strategies against each other.
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